Flagg, how did you miss this???

[HeirofNumenor]

That's a good point Heir. But a person who questions their church building a mall doesn't mean they are somehow on the road to apostasy either. I think it is a reasonable and understandable concern especially for a church that constantly teaches against conspicuous consumption.

Questions - or accuses?

Or makes snide/inflammatory remarks/posts?

Simply Saying: "I don't understand the justification for doing this Mall - how does this fit into the mission of the Church/help the poor?" is a far cry from the typical: (pic of the prophet cutting ribbon)/statement about Pres. Monson pandering to Babylon juxtaposed with BoM scriptures condemning Gentiles and Churches oppressing the poor - with the clear message that the post author seems to believe that the Church from the top down is oppressing the poor. And now this attitude has spilled over to the Conference Center, which never was a commercial purpose.

And yet the critics don't seem to consider the possibility that the Lord inspired them/approved of to do these business activities - for His purposes, nor does anyone want to for even a moment take the Brethren at face value. Rather the critics seems to have quickly dismissed those out of hand, with nary a second thought save scorn and condemnation.

As I mentioned on the thread "Is it possible to defend the Church too much?" - those insinuations (whether about Mark Hoffman or City Creek) is that the Prophet/FP/12 are somehow unworthy of/lost their calling because they approved these things - and the "energy expended" (me being nice about it) in arguing so strenuously that the Church/apostles is wrong is truly placing anyone who does so on the road to apostasy (remember Pres. Uctdorf's stories about planes flying off course only one-two degrees and later finding themselves several hundred miles off course and out of fuel).

You may not think they are: but I guarantee you that Satan is waiting in the shadows hoping that people will keep making more statements - and cause more and more division/contention in - mistrust against the Church...

Same goes for these petitions clamoring for Common Consent and/or FBI investigate the Church/FP for racketeering/embezzlement...

The Separation of Wheat and Tares is going involve far more issues than gay marriage/women and priesthood, etc.....

[bobhenstra]

Illinois just become the latest state to ok gay marriage. The tares continue to bundle themselves!

[HeirofNumenor]

Illinois just become the latest state to ok gay marriage. The tares are bundling themselves!

Sigh - when did IL do this? I hadn't heard....

[Mark]

That's a good point Heir. But a person who questions their church building a mall doesn't mean they are somehow on the road to apostasy either. I think it is a reasonable and understandable concern especially for a church that constantly teaches against conspicuous consumption.

Questions - or accuses?

Or makes snide/inflammatory remarks/posts?

Simply Saying: "I don't understand the justification for doing this Mall - how does this fit into the mission of the Church/help the poor?" is a far cry from the typical: (pic of the prophet cutting ribbon)/statement about Pres. Monson pandering to Babylon juxtaposed with BoM scriptures condemning Gentiles and Churches oppressing the poor - with the clear message that the post author seems to believe that the Church from the top down is oppressing the poor. And now this attitude has spilled over to the Conference Center, which never was a commercial purpose.

As I mentioned on the thread "Is it possible to defend the Church too much?" - those insinuations (whether about Mark Hoffman or City Creek) is that the Prophet/FP/12 are somehow unworthy of/lost their calling because they approved these things - and the "energy expended" (me being nice about it) in arguing so strenuously that the Church/apostles is wrong is truly placing anyone who does so on the road to apostasy (remember Pres. Uctdorf's stories about planes flying off course only one-two degrees and later finding themselves several hundred miles off course and out of fuel).

You may not think they are: but I guarantee you that Satan is waiting in the shadows hoping that people will keep making more statements - and cause more and more division/contention in - mistrust against the Church...

Same goes for these petitions clamoring for Common Consent and/or FBI investigate the Church/FP for racketeering/embezzlement...

The Separation of Wheat and Tares is going involve far more issues than gay marriage/women and priesthood, etc.....

You are very perceptive Heir. I will say this. If a non member of the church were to come here and read all the insinuations and condemnations aimed at those who have been called to positions of leadership in this church as a result of some of the financial decisions made by these Brethren I guaranty you they would thinks that this were an anti-Mormon site. In fact I know that many of the same arguments made here have been used by enemies of the church who seek to discredit it any way they can.

[HeirofNumenor]

Thanks Mark.


Going back to the OP - I'm quite ticked that SLC decided to set up a FTZ for China...which (fortunately) appears to be confined somewhat to the city limits. SLC is fairly small - about 200,000 people is a very limited area. My guess is that the SLC airport, the refineries to the north of the city, and the U of U would be the main areas of emphasis for takeover.

Of course, the ChiComs may attempt to take City Creek .... set up a command post in the condos above the temple =))

Actually - they'd probably seize the high ground around the UT state capitol...

Thank you Gov. Huntsman and Gov. Herbert, and Mayor Coroon (and prior) X(

[bobhenstra]

http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-ro ... 03991.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[HeirofNumenor]

http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-ro ... 03991.html

Thanks Bob - "nice" Valentine's gift from IL :ymsick:

[Col. Flagg]

That's a good point Heir. But a person who questions their church building a mall doesn't mean they are somehow on the road to apostasy either. I think it is a reasonable and understandable concern especially for a church that constantly teaches against conspicuous consumption.

Questions - or accuses?

Or makes snide/inflammatory remarks/posts?

Simply Saying: "I don't understand the justification for doing this Mall - how does this fit into the mission of the Church/help the poor?" is a far cry from the typical: (pic of the prophet cutting ribbon)/statement about Pres. Monson pandering to Babylon juxtaposed with BoM scriptures condemning Gentiles and Churches oppressing the poor - with the clear message that the post author seems to believe that the Church from the top down is oppressing the poor. And now this attitude has spilled over to the Conference Center, which never was a commercial purpose.

As I mentioned on the thread "Is it possible to defend the Church too much?" - those insinuations (whether about Mark Hoffman or City Creek) is that the Prophet/FP/12 are somehow unworthy of/lost their calling because they approved these things - and the "energy expended" (me being nice about it) in arguing so strenuously that the Church/apostles is wrong is truly placing anyone who does so on the road to apostasy (remember Pres. Uctdorf's stories about planes flying off course only one-two degrees and later finding themselves several hundred miles off course and out of fuel).

You may not think they are: but I guarantee you that Satan is waiting in the shadows hoping that people will keep making more statements - and cause more and more division/contention in - mistrust against the Church...

Same goes for these petitions clamoring for Common Consent and/or FBI investigate the Church/FP for racketeering/embezzlement...

The Separation of Wheat and Tares is going involve far more issues than gay marriage/women and priesthood, etc.....

You are very perceptive Heir. I will say this. If a non member of the church were to come here and read all the insinuations and condemnations aimed at those who have been called to positions of leadership in this church as a result of some of the financial decisions made by these Brethren I guaranty you they would thinks that this were an anti-Mormon site. In fact I know that many of the same arguments made here have been used by enemies of the church who seek to discredit it any way they can.

... and using billions in sacred funds for a luxury mall for the rich just made it easier. I'll say this much... if I was the Lord and my servants erected something like that, it wouldn't stand very long.

http://www.bhporter.com/Profess.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Col. Flagg]

http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-ro ... 03991.html

[Seek the Truth]

... and using billions in sacred funds for a luxury mall for the rich just made it easier. I'll say this much... if I was the Lord and my servants erected something like that, it wouldn't stand very long.

http://www.bhporter.com/Profess.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess you and the Lord are rather far apart.

[bobhenstra]

... and using billions in sacred funds for a luxury mall for the rich just made it easier. I'll say this much... if I was the Lord and my servants erected something like that, it wouldn't stand very long.

http://www.bhporter.com/Profess.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess you and the Lord are rather far apart.

Indeed!

[Col. Flagg]

... and using billions in sacred funds for a luxury mall for the rich just made it easier. I'll say this much... if I was the Lord and my servants erected something like that, it wouldn't stand very long.

http://www.bhporter.com/Profess.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess you and the Lord are rather far apart.

Indeed!

We shall see... we shall see.

[Col. Flagg]

... and using billions in sacred funds for a luxury mall for the rich just made it easier. I'll say this much... if I was the Lord and my servants erected something like that, it wouldn't stand very long.

http://www.bhporter.com/Profess.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess you and the Lord are rather far apart.

Ah, but I have something on my side that you and Bob don't... the scriptures. #-o

[Original_Intent]

Not really, Col. I've seen a lot of this "If I were the Lord" viewpoint from you. You are a good guy and you get about 90% right, but the 10% that you get wrong you get so glaringly wrong that it ruins your credibility on things that you actually know what you are talking about.

You would really be doing yourself a service to pipe down on the CCM and polygamy - in both cases your ego gets in the way and you seem to dictate to God what is and is not correct, or rather "I could not accept a God that would condone polygamy." or "The Lord could not be pleased with leaders that spend billions on a mall while billions are starving."

Sorry, you are not privy to the Lord's program, the Lord does not need to get your approval for every thing He does. I'd deal with the pride beam in your eye before being so anxious to pluck the mote from the eyes of the Lord's servants, past and present.

You truly are someone that I like, but I am getting really tired of your mule-ish behavior and your constant harping. Sure you have passion, but passion isn't enough, passion can be harmful if misdirected. The people that have done the most harm in the world likely felt very passionate about what they were promoting.

[Col. Flagg]

Not really, Col. I've seen a lot of this "If I were the Lord" viewpoint from you. You are a good guy and you get about 90% right, but the 10% that you get wrong you get so glaringly wrong that it ruins your credibility on things that you actually know what you are talking about.

You would really be doing yourself a service to pipe down on the CCM and polygamy - in both cases your ego gets in the way and you seem to dictate to God what is and is not correct, or rather "I could not accept a God that would condone polygamy." or "The Lord could not be pleased with leaders that spend billions on a mall while billions are starving."

Sorry, you are not privy to the Lord's program, the Lord does not need to get your approval for every thing He does. I'd deal with the pride beam in your eye before being so anxious to pluck the mote from the eyes of the Lord's servants, past and present.

You truly are someone that I like, but I am getting really tired of your mule-ish behavior and your constant harping. Sure you have passion, but passion isn't enough, passion can be harmful if misdirected. The people that have done the most harm in the world likely felt very passionate about what they were promoting.

OI, I haven't said a word about polygamy in a long time now and yes, the scriptures are in my corner as well as those who agree that CC is an abomination. I can cite dozens of scripture references that condemn everything that King Noah's palace stands for while those defending it can't cite one that would support it. And this has nothing to do with a 'pride check' for me, my being right, more 'in tune' or anything of the sort - it has to do with knowing who the Lord and our Savior are and honestly, how anyone can think that they would support such an endeavor with billions in sacred funds given the myriad of scriptures that warn against and condemn it... is indeed puzzling? :-\ I also find it a bit hypocritical on your part that here you are accusing me of having an ego and all while scolding me as if you've been assigned to be a judge over me. I love you as a brother, but please, you are not my judge, jury and executioner. And like I've stated a few times before... what are the ramifications if I am wrong? #-o What are the ramifications if the church was wrong? :-s :-ss

[Fairminded]

Since no tithing was used, why do you care if people criticize it? Investment income used for further investment. Standard business decisions are subject to objection without a persons faithfulness being called into question. Since these are "non-sacred funds" in the first place(allegedly), stop pulling the faith card or lack thereof for anyone who may question it.

Of course the argument could be made that the original investment monies came from somewhere, ahem, namely tithing, but I digress.

Actually very little of the comments from anti-mall peeps have to do with sales numbers, profit, occupancy rates, ROI, smart business decision, etc. - as you'd expect if we were only evaluating it as a standard business decision here.

Unfortunately, nearly EVERY anti-mall comment comes down to saying the Church (with it's apostles as complicit since they approved the Mall) is oppressing the poor, juxtaposing scriptures about such, with photos of the Prophet cutting ribbons, etc...with these attacks now being extended to the Conference Center as "The Great and Spacious Building", which Center is NOT a business project....

Likewise, nearly every person making this anti-mall comments, also has some other complaints against the Church, it's leaders, or its members as whole...and from nearly every person, I have seen these other complaints coming BEFORE the Mall was built - or even mentioned on this forum.

Serious axes to grind...

I beg to differ, Heir. Just as great as my disapproval of using Church funds to build a mall is my opinion of how the mall itself was constructed.

Orson Scott Card expresses it much better than I could in his review of City Creek, but I'll do my best to elaborate.

A city center flourishes best if it draws people. Not only that, but it should give people a reason to linger, vitalizing the area and encouraging impulse buying. Most standard indoor malls are a hodgepodge of small businesses crammed into small spaces that each take up maybe twenty feet of storefront facing out into the mall. For the most part slightly tacky, these stores feature unique products at reasonable prices, and fill all sorts of niches that you can't find in larger superstores. This is a window shopper's dream, allowing them to come and browse places they've heard nothing about, and enjoy the experience of being able to walk short distances to reach new stores to peruse.

On the other hand, City Creek features a relative handful of upscale name brand stores filling up huge spaces. In order to window shop you have to walk hundreds of feet just to look at a different storefront. And because the stores are name brand you only really have to go through it once to see all its wares and know exactly what you're going to find if you should come back and look through it again. Compounding the problem is that thanks to online purchasing you don't really HAVE to visit physical stores at all, so visiting name brand stores is often a waste of time.

That's what City Creek is. A huge, sprawling, prohibitively expensive behemoth that discourages window shoppers, discourages people to come and linger for an enjoyable weekend, discourages return visits, and discourages people of most pay grades from even coming at all. Far from revitalizing a city center it turns it into a barren wasteland where the poor and intransigent are turned away and the rich come and linger briefly before leaving to never return. The Church will be forced to CONTINUALLY DUMP MORE MONEY INTO IT TO KEEP IT OPERATIONAL.

So in short, City Creek fails in all of its goals. As a city center meant to draw visitors it fails. As a profitable business it fails. As a way of representing the ideals of the Church it fails. The fact that its very existence erodes membership confidence in the purposes and methods of the Church is just icing on the cake.

[bobhenstra]

No worries, the Church isn't wrong!

[Col. Flagg]

Since no tithing was used, why do you care if people criticize it? Investment income used for further investment. Standard business decisions are subject to objection without a persons faithfulness being called into question. Since these are "non-sacred funds" in the first place(allegedly), stop pulling the faith card or lack thereof for anyone who may question it.

Of course the argument could be made that the original investment monies came from somewhere, ahem, namely tithing, but I digress.

Actually very little of the comments from anti-mall peeps have to do with sales numbers, profit, occupancy rates, ROI, smart business decision, etc. - as you'd expect if we were only evaluating it as a standard business decision here.

Unfortunately, nearly EVERY anti-mall comment comes down to saying the Church (with it's apostles as complicit since they approved the Mall) is oppressing the poor, juxtaposing scriptures about such, with photos of the Prophet cutting ribbons, etc...with these attacks now being extended to the Conference Center as "The Great and Spacious Building", which Center is NOT a business project....

Likewise, nearly every person making this anti-mall comments, also has some other complaints against the Church, it's leaders, or its members as whole...and from nearly every person, I have seen these other complaints coming BEFORE the Mall was built - or even mentioned on this forum.

Serious axes to grind...

I beg to differ, Heir. Just as great as my disapproval of using Church funds to build a mall is my opinion of how the mall itself was constructed.

Orson Scott Card expresses it much better than I could in his review of City Creek, but I'll do my best to elaborate.

A city center flourishes best if it draws people. Not only that, but it should give people a reason to linger, vitalizing the area and encouraging impulse buying. Most standard indoor malls are a hodgepodge of small businesses crammed into small spaces that each take up maybe twenty feet of storefront facing out into the mall. For the most part slightly tacky, these stores feature unique products at reasonable prices, and fill all sorts of niches that you can't find in larger superstores. This is a window shopper's dream, allowing them to come and browse places they've heard nothing about, and enjoy the experience of being able to walk short distances to reach new stores to peruse.

On the other hand, City Creek features a relative handful of upscale name brand stores filling up huge spaces. In order to window shop you have to walk hundreds of feet just to look at a different storefront. And because the stores are name brand you only really have to go through it once to see all its wares and know exactly what you're going to find if you should come back and look through it again. Compounding the problem is that thanks to online purchasing you don't really HAVE to visit physical stores at all, so visiting name brand stores is often a waste of time.

That's what City Creek is. A huge, sprawling, prohibitively expensive behemoth that discourages window shoppers, discourages people to come and linger for an enjoyable weekend, discourages return visits, and discourages people of most pay grades from even coming at all. Far from revitalizing a city center it turns it into a barren wasteland where the poor and intransigent are turned away and the rich come and linger briefly before leaving to never return. The Church will be forced to CONTINUALLY DUMP MORE MONEY INTO IT TO KEEP IT OPERATIONAL.

So in short, City Creek fails in all of its goals. As a city center meant to draw visitors it fails. As a profitable business it fails. As a way of representing the ideals of the Church it fails. The fact that its very existence erodes membership confidence in the purposes and methods of the Church is just icing on the cake.

Well stated Fairminded! :ymapplause:

[Col. Flagg]

No worries, the Church isn't wrong!

Just like it wasn't wrong handing over half a million or whatever it was to criminal and forgerer Mark Hoffman in the 1980's right Bob?

[natasha]

No worries, the Church isn't wrong!

Just like it wasn't wrong handing over half a million or whatever it was to criminal and forgerer Mark Hoffman in the 1980's right Bob?

I am sooooo tired of the Mark Hoffman stuff! Here's some interesting info about it from FAIR. Please read the WHOLE thing!

http://en.fairmormon.org/Forgeries_rela ... _forgeries" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[bobhenstra]

Lol, I'll take the Churches mistakes over Flagg's mistakes any and every day, week, month, year or even---century! Flagg's mistakes are actually comical, reminds me of this;

[Seek the Truth]

One wonders if the Kirtland bank meant the Church was wrong, or if Jesus was wrong for wanting to get into the hotel business.

[Col. Flagg]

No worries, the Church isn't wrong!

Just like it wasn't wrong handing over half a million or whatever it was to criminal and forgerer Mark Hoffman in the 1980's right Bob?

I am sooooo tired of the Mark Hoffman stuff! Here's some interesting info about it from FAIR. Please read the WHOLE thing!

http://en.fairmormon.org/Forgeries_rela ... _forgeries" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is it because the analogy proves a point for me?

[jbalm]

Interesting thread.

Lure Col. Flagg in via the thread title w/ his user name in it, then taunt him and ridicule him for engaging (and being consistent in his views).

Troll thread.

[Fairminded]

Interesting thread.

Lure Col. Flagg in via the thread title w/ his user name in it, then taunt him and ridicule him for engaging (and being consistent in his views).

Troll thread.

+1

Interesting to see the people who hop on the bandwagon to join in tag-team attacking a fellow forumgoer. I see a lot of the usual suspects.