Page 1 of 2
Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 24th, 2013, 8:55 pm
by firefly
http://washingtonexaminer.com/utah-sher ... QIAspHft0x
In the most strident warning over gun control to President Obama yet, the Utah Sheriffs' Association is pledging to go to war over any administration plan to take guns away, even if it means losing their lives.
Calling the Second Amendment a sacred right of citizens to protect themselves from "tyrannical subjugation," the association state elected sheriffs said in a new letter, "we are prepared to trade our lives for the preservation of its traditional interpretation."
Theirs is the first meaningful proof that some in law enforcement and the military are preparing to fight federal forces if the president wins his goal of sweeping gun control.
In a direct warning to Obama, the FBI and other agencies, the sheriffs wrote: "Make no mistake, as the duly-elected sheriffs our our respective counties, we will enforce the rights guaranteed to our citizens by the Constitution. No federal official will be permitted to descend upon our constituents and take from them what the Bill of Rights--in particular Amendment II--has given them."
Little old Utah stepping up to the plate. From reading the comments, there's a lot of people proud of Utah right now.
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 24th, 2013, 9:48 pm
by gr8ideas
Way to go Sheriffs!! :ymhug:
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 24th, 2013, 10:23 pm
by jeanpierre
It would not surprise me if the church will be persuaded to come down on the side of obedience to whatever anti-gun dictates are imposed to keep as much peace as possible with the American dictatorship.
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 8:37 am
by mouse
jeanpierre wrote:It would not surprise me if the church will be persuaded to come down on the side of obedience to whatever anti-gun dictates are imposed to keep as much peace as possible with the American dictatorship.
Hopefully not! If I hear the words, "obey the laws of the land," during this hour of American history, from anyone that speaks for the church, I will lose it!
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 9:41 am
by uglypitbull
firefly wrote:
Little old Utah stepping up to the plate. From reading the comments, there's a lot of people proud of Utah right now.
Everywhere but Salt Lake county....their 'sheriff' sold them down the river to become the CEO of a private corporation called the Unified Police Department. There is no more sheriffs department there.
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 9:55 am
by eric
mouse wrote:jeanpierre wrote:It would not surprise me if the church will be persuaded to come down on the side of obedience to whatever anti-gun dictates are imposed to keep as much peace as possible with the American dictatorship.
Hopefully not! If I hear the words, "obey the laws of the land," during this hour of American history, from anyone that speaks for the church, I will lose it!
Me, too Mouse..... When will the Church draw the line? When they are lining the Saints up in front of a pit, using their automatic rifles on them? Too late at that point. Its hanging by a thread, baby..... We need to rise up and be men....
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 10:28 am
by samizdat
There are many countries in the world where access to guns is restricted or prohibited totally, where there are members of the Church. The members there have to abide by those laws of restriction.
I have been reading Jeremiah lately. The one case where I could say that the Church would say, obey the law, and do not resist, is if the people in general had become so wicked as to have no chance whatsoever in redemption. In other words, surrender and live, fight and die.
In other cases, there are instances where we were called upon to defend ourselves and our freedoms, especially in the Book of Mormon, and acceptable wars fought by Israel in the Old Testament.
It depends on the situation. If massive gun control legislation is passed in the United States, the Church would have two options.
Tell its members to live the law of the land--precedent in the Book of Jeremiah, as well as Mormon refusing the command of the Nephite armies for their wickedness...and in the end being one of a small handful of survivors...
Tell its members to stock up on ammo, etc--precedent in the Old Testament and in the Book of Helaman in the Book of Mormon.
According to recent comments that I have heard from Elders Holland and Oaks, and observing conditions on the ground in the USA, I believe the Church will choose the former.
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 11:31 am
by sadie_Mormon
AMEN!!
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 11:40 am
by SmallFarm
samizdat wrote:There are many countries in the world where access to guns is restricted or prohibited totally, where there are members of the Church. The members there have to abide by those laws of restriction.
I have been reading Jeremiah lately. The one case where I could say that the Church would say, obey the law, and do not resist, is if the people in general had become so wicked as to have no chance whatsoever in redemption. In other words, surrender and live, fight and die.
In other cases, there are instances where we were called upon to defend ourselves and our freedoms, especially in the Book of Mormon, and acceptable wars fought by Israel in the Old Testament.
It depends on the situation. If massive gun control legislation is passed in the United States, the Church would have two options.
Tell its members to live the law of the land--precedent in the Book of Jeremiah, as well as Mormon refusing the command of the Nephite armies for their wickedness...and in the end being one of a small handful of survivors...
Tell its members to stock up on ammo, etc--precedent in the Old Testament and in the Book of Helaman in the Book of Mormon.
According to recent comments that I have heard from Elders Holland and Oaks, and observing conditions on the ground in the USA, I believe the Church will choose the former.
I think it'll tell the members of the church, "follow constitutional Law of the land", and leave it up to the members to interpret that correctly.
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 12:07 pm
by uglypitbull
samizdat wrote:There are many countries in the world where access to guns is restricted or prohibited totally, where there are members of the Church. The members there have to abide by those laws of restriction.
That is apples and oranges. Did those countries also have a Constitution that was inspired of the Lord? Those members were born into completely different environments, and we know the righteous ones will eventually be forced to flee to America for protection at some point in the future.
What makes any of us think the church will end up taking a position on this at all? We are told to pray for our own inspiration are we not?
I think Ezra Taft Benson's talk 'Not Commanded in all Things" applies to a lot more than we are willing to admit. Remember, it was the Lord who issued this decree in 1831 via D&C 58:26–29.
http://www.latterdayconservative.com/ez ... ll-things/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 2:16 pm
by lundbaek
At this point I concurr with jeanpierre that "the church will be persuaded to come down on the side of obedience to whatever anti-gun dictates are imposed to keep as much peace as possible with the American dictatorship", and to allow the Church to continue to perform its mission of introducing the gospel of Christ to as many people around the world as possible.
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 2:42 pm
by jeanpierre
It looks to me from the standpoint of a Canadian living in the USA that Obama is prepared to use the military to enforce gun confiscation.
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 3:33 pm
by Col. Flagg
mouse wrote:jeanpierre wrote:It would not surprise me if the church will be persuaded to come down on the side of obedience to whatever anti-gun dictates are imposed to keep as much peace as possible with the American dictatorship.
Hopefully not! If I hear the words, "obey the laws of the land," during this hour of American history, from anyone that speaks for the church, I will lose it!
I hate to say it, but the odds are that if push comes to shove, the church will issue a statement advising its members to obey the federal government as part of the 12th Article of Faith (We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law) without regard for the Constitution and second amendment.
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 3:40 pm
by jbalm
Col. Flagg wrote:mouse wrote:jeanpierre wrote:It would not surprise me if the church will be persuaded to come down on the side of obedience to whatever anti-gun dictates are imposed to keep as much peace as possible with the American dictatorship.
Hopefully not! If I hear the words, "obey the laws of the land," during this hour of American history, from anyone that speaks for the church, I will lose it!
I hate to say it, but the odds are that if push comes to shove, the church will issue a statement advising its members to obey the federal government as part of the 12th Article of Faith (We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law) without regard for the Constitution and second amendment.
That would be horrible. You know if that happened, members of the same ward would probably turn each other in. And they would smugly feel like they were doing God's work when they did it.
If that ever happened, I wouldn't be able to go to church anymore. For safety's sake.
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 3:50 pm
by nvr
Unconstitutional gun laws are my favorite laws to ignore.
These laws have been on the books for years. There is no obligation to follow them, and if you do, you are voluntarily doing so. The interstate commerce clause has been used and abused to implement all kinds of constitutionally repugnant laws like the prohibition on the sale or transfer of guns across state lines.
This writer at
http://www.originalintent.org/edu/federaljur.php summarizes the point well:
One should clearly understand that the Founding Fathers never intended the interstate commerce clause to act directly upon individual Citizens of the states. As in any free nation/state, if merchants, farmers, manufacturers, etc., have concerns about trade relations with other nation/states, the individual Citizen (or group of affected Citizens) pleads his case to his elected representative and that official then attempts to have legislation passed to assist the affected Citizens in achieving an improved trade position. An "improved trade position" may be the result of tariffs, import restrictions, price controls, etc., all of which are valid methods to address trade concerns.
By including the interstate commerce clause in the US Constitution, the states agreed to surrender their prerogative to make laws concerning trade issues to Congress. In short, the states agreed to abide by the decisions of the central government as an alternative to making war over trade issues. It is important to note that the Founding Fathers never intended the federal government to assume complete control over every aspects of commerce between the states, but rather to create a framework of regulation designed to minimize potential conflicts and then to take action only when a conflict appeared to be imminent or a conflict was brought to the courts of United States for resolution.
The commerce clause, thus, was intended only to provide a framework to enable fair trading between states - it was never intended to affect the individual. This is not to mention the fact that any laws established for individuals under the commerce clause are enforceable only in federal territories, including District of Columbia, Commonwealth of Puerto Rico and other US territories. The states themselves are sovereign and outside of the jurisdiction of this and, indeed, all other federal laws.
The point is, we should realize that we are under no obligation to follow any new federal gun law for the reasons discussed above, but most importantly because our rights are already protected under the 2nd Ammendment.
All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void (Marbury vs. Madison. 5 US (2 Cranch) 137,174,176, (1803)
Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them. (Miranda vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 p.491.)
An Unconstitutional Act is not law; it confers no rights: it imposes no duties; affords no protection; it creates no office; it is in legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never been passed. (Norton vs. Shelby County 118 US 425 p.442)
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 3:53 pm
by Seek the Truth
Recall Jesus and giving to Rome which is Rome's, the Church is not primarily a political revolutionary organization, it's entry into public issues is limited.
The reality is we've had unconstitutional gun laws and other unconstitutional laws for almost a century and the church hasn't said anything specific. I don't know why they would now.
But I sold all my guns, so whatever.
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 5:15 pm
by samizdat
uglypitbull wrote:samizdat wrote:There are many countries in the world where access to guns is restricted or prohibited totally, where there are members of the Church. The members there have to abide by those laws of restriction.
That is apples and oranges. Did those countries also have a Constitution that was inspired of the Lord? Those members were born into completely different environments, and we know the righteous ones will eventually be forced to flee to America for protection at some point in the future.
What makes any of us think the church will end up taking a position on this at all? We are told to pray for our own inspiration are we not?
I think Ezra Taft Benson's talk 'Not Commanded in all Things" applies to a lot more than we are willing to admit. Remember, it was the Lord who issued this decree in 1831 via D&C 58:26–29.
http://www.latterdayconservative.com/ez ... ll-things/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Correction, the righteous won't be fleeing to America, but to Zion. As to gun laws the Church makes no statements outside of the USA where many countries ban guns. The members just obey, and they haven't had any problems as a result.
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 5:55 pm
by ktg
Now if our Governor will grow a spine. 8-|
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/5 ... w.html.csp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 7:24 pm
by uglypitbull
samizdat wrote:
Correction, the righteous won't be fleeing to America, but to Zion.
Touche!
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 7:43 pm
by freedomforall
mouse wrote:jeanpierre wrote:It would not surprise me if the church will be persuaded to come down on the side of obedience to whatever anti-gun dictates are imposed to keep as much peace as possible with the American dictatorship.
Hopefully not! If I hear the words, "obey the laws of the land," during this hour of American history, from anyone that speaks for the church, I will lose it!
I don't think the church will tell us to give up ours guns. The 2nd Amendment is part of the Constitution. The Lord told us in D&C to befriend the Constitution. Scripture confirms that the Constitution is the law of the land. How could the church or anyone one in authority in it go against scripture...unless God says the Constitution is no longer valid?
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 7:56 pm
by AussieAmerican
I am pleased that these men are standing for our Constitution. Here in Canyon County, Idaho our Sheriff is standing by the 2nd Amendment as well.
I am very concerned though about the talk in this forum about our Church leadership. The brethren speak for Christ, especially our prophet. We want Sheriff's and politician to stand for the constitution, how about we do the same and stand by our leaders. They get enough slack from the world and they certainly do not need members to join the rank and file of the world. When dissension begins it is from within.
Of course there will be those who attempt to cover their sins by pointing out that our church leaders give their opinion etc., and they will even give examples but that is not who we should be. We should be supporting and praying for them in these very difficult circumstances.
I believe they know what is coming and I wish that I could understand a little of what they already know of the actual future events of this country. Wickedness is what will bring down this country and if we are not careful also ourselves. It will certainly not be our church leaders.
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 8:00 pm
by lundbaek
"How could the church or anyone one in authority in it go against scripture...unless God says the Constitution is no longer valid?" That is exactly what I am afraid of. From the apparent change on the part of Church leadership from concern for all the freedoms vouchsafed in the US Constitution to concern for only freedom to worship according to the dictates of one's conscience, one could conclude any number of things.
And one of those things is that apostacy on the part of Mormons alone from the principles of the US Constitution may persuade the Lord to let us suffer consequences of that apostacy. And further to that, apostacy on the part of Americans generally from the principles of the US Constitution have so corrupted this American nation that it is beyond the abilities of freedom-loving Americans to reverse course away from the clutches of that secret combination that President Benson warned us in 1987 was seeking "to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations and countries [and] is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world." without the Lord "baring His arm" to our detriment.
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 8:01 pm
by freedomforall
Col. Flagg wrote:mouse wrote:jeanpierre wrote:It would not surprise me if the church will be persuaded to come down on the side of obedience to whatever anti-gun dictates are imposed to keep as much peace as possible with the American dictatorship.
Hopefully not! If I hear the words, "obey the laws of the land," during this hour of American history, from anyone that speaks for the church, I will lose it!
I hate to say it, but the odds are that if push comes to shove, the church will issue a statement advising its members to obey the federal government as part of the 12th Article of Faith (We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law) without regard for the Constitution and second amendment.
God also said that this land, the promised land, would never be ruled by a wicked king, did he not? Why on earth would God tell us to be aware of LDG's and not do something about them? Why didn't He add this..."but if they decide to subject you under tyranny, do whatever they tell you? Think about this, if government takes complete control over Americans...this also includes the church being subjected under tyranny. Subdued church means negated missionary work. Would God want us to lay down and let tyranny take complete control over our lives?
Are these statements all false?
So emphatic was God about this point that He commanded through His servant Jacob that “there shall be no kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles” (2 Nephi 10:11). God further declared that He will “fortify this land against all other nations,” “that [he who] fighteth against Zion shall perish,” “that [he who] raiseth up a king against me shall perish,” and that He would “destroy the secret works of darkness,” which would seek to overthrow this free government (2 Nephi 10:11-15; compare to Ether 8:23-25). When the Lord visited the Nephites after His resurrection, He prophesied that the Gentiles would be “established in this land” and “be set up as a free people by the power of the Father” (3 Nephi 21:4).
If we as Latter-day Saints think that this warning is directed against our “Gentile” neighbors, we should ask ourselves how they could be responsible for this divine mandate when they don’t even know it exists. This means that the burden is on us much more than it is on our fellow citizens, because greater light and understanding have been revealed to us through God’s prophets. Since we have been
“identified with the Gentiles” (D&C 109:60), then the warning is directed squarely at ourselves. But God has not left us without guidance. Through the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jesus Christ declared that we should befriend “that law which is the constitutional law of the land” (D&C 98:6), and that we should seek out “honest 63 men and wise men…diligently” to represent us. And, we should “observe to uphold” “good men and wise men” in office (D&C 98:10). Otherwise, the wicked will rule, and we will mourn (D&C 98:9).
The prophets have minced no words regarding our responsibility to befriend the Constitution, and to ensure that the inspired form of government God gave us remains intact. We cannot and must not shirk this duty.
Joseph Smith
[Shall] we longer bear these cruelties which have been heaped upon us for the last ten years in the face of heaven, and in open violation of the constitution and law of these United States and of this state? God forbid! I will not bear it. If they take away my rights, I will fight for them manfully and righteously until I am used up. We have done nothing against the rights of others. (June 1843, History of the Church, 5:471)
Heber J Grant
n the providences of the Lord, the safeguards which have been incorporated into the basic structure of this nation are, if we preserve them, the guarantee of all men who dwell here against abuses, tyrannies, and usurpations….
I counsel you, I urge your, I plead with you, never, so far as you have voice or influence, permit any departure from the principles of governments on which this nation was founded, or any disregard of the freedoms which, by the inspiration of God our Father, were written in the Constitution of the United States. (October 1944, General Conference)
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 25th, 2013, 8:49 pm
by freedomforall
How many people will stand with the sheriffs when they need us? Are we going to let them take a fall even when they are standing up for you?
Re: Utah Sheriffs: we’ll “trade our lives”
Posted: January 26th, 2013, 9:14 pm
by freedomforall
RSC Chair: Court Decision Reminds Obama 'He Cannot Just Ignore The Law' To Revoke 2nd Amendment
January 25, 2013
By Craig Bannister
Republican Study Committee Chairman Rep. Steve Scalise (R-La.) responded to a federal appeals court's ruling that Pres. Obama's appointments to the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) recess are unconstitutional:
"Today the federal court confirmed what many Americans have been saying all along, that President Obama's appointments to the National Labor Relations Board were unconstitutional," said Scalise. "America is a nation of laws, and this ruling proves that no one is above the law, including the President.
Scalise says the ruling gives notice to Obama that he cannot revoke Americans' Second Amendment rights through "unilateral executive action":
"As President Obama talks about taking away our 2nd amendment rights through executive order, this ruling will serve as a reminder to him that he cannot just ignore the law and use unilateral executive actions to ram through his liberal agenda.
"I am pleased that courts have refused to be bullied by the President and have not let him trample on our constitutionally established separation of powers. I expect moving forward that President Obama will gain a renewed respect for the Constitutional requirement that American Presidents have to work with Congress rather than acting unilaterally on important policy matters."
http://cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister ... revoke-2nd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;