How Momons have failed America

[ebenezerarise]

That's great. But what does a letter to BYU, an institution only a fraction of the members of the Church can or will attend, have to do with this discussion? The OP condemned the Church membership. BYU is not reflective of Church membership. It is not a quorum and has no authoritative role in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

There is no commandment to attend BYU.

Am I understanding your DOM letter to BYU wrong?

[Benjamin_LK]

President Ezra Taft Benson boldly declared in October 1986 that the Church was under condemnation. He said,

Not only had treating this sacred book lightly brought a loss of light to themselves, it had also brought the whole Church under condemnation, even all the children of Zion. And then the Lord said, “And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon” (D&C 84:54–57).


He also said,

I reaffirm those words to you this day. Let us not remain under condemnation, with its scourge and judgment, by treating lightly this great and marvelous gift the Lord has given to us. Rather, let us win the promises associated with treasuring it up in our hearts.

In the Doctrine and Covenants, section 84, verses 54 to 58, we read:

“And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

“Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

“And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

“And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

“That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.” [D&C 84:54–58]

And since that time we have been reading, studying, pushing the Book of Mormon like crazy...(If we are still under condemnation, it's because of that awful "Book of Mormon Movie: Journey to the Promised Land." :ymsick: My ex-wife was convinced that enemies of/within the Church made that movie.)

Well, as an old saying goes, the Book is always better.

[InfoWarrior82]

There are way too many Mormons upholding secret combinations and don't even know it.

You know we are in trouble when 90+ % of Mormons voted for a constitutionally illiterate presidential candidate.

[Seek the Truth]

Much better than a willfully Constitutional destroying candidate.

[InfoWarrior82]

Much better than a willfully Constitutional destroying candidate.

What about the Republican primaries?

[CBentley]

That's great. But what does a letter to BYU, an institution only a fraction of the members of the Church can or will attend, have to do with this discussion? The OP condemned the Church membership. BYU is not reflective of Church membership. It is not a quorum and has no authoritative role in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

There is no commandment to attend BYU.

Am I understanding your DOM letter to BYU wrong?

The principles which the letter discusses apply to the Church membership just as much as it does to BYU.

My two questions asked above still stand. And I add a third one:

What percentage of members of the Church support freedom in the manner which President McKay outlined?

I can tell you that in my wards and stakes I have lived in that number would be very, very small. Most accept some aspects of socialism, if not much of it.

I hear it all of the time.

[Fielding]

Removed

[Andrew52]

But because of this failure on the part of the Mormon people, many others whom they might have inspired to study, embrace, and abide by the principles of the Constitution have been denied the opportunity to learn and act on those principles.

What a crock of doo.

The Mormons have failed nothing.

First, there are some 5 to 6 million Mormons in the USA. Against a population of some 300+ million overall.

While there are many practicing LDS who do not exercise their Constitutional freedoms there are many that do. They serve in government. They vote. They are active in communities. They serve in the armed forces. They fight and they die. All the while through-out our history the members of the Church in the USA have been on record as a patriotic people even though as citizens we have been continually persecuted.

This rant is but one more of many condemnation of the Church and its members on these boards and it has no basis in reality.

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

[Seek the Truth]

Much better than a willfully Constitutional destroying candidate.

What about the Republican primaries?

I voted for Ron Paul, 3 or 4 times IIRC.

[freedomforall]

But because of this failure on the part of the Mormon people, many others whom they might have inspired to study, embrace, and abide by the principles of the Constitution have been denied the opportunity to learn and act on those principles.

What a crock of doo.

The Mormons have failed nothing.

First, there are some 5 to 6 million Mormons in the USA. Against a population of some 300+ million overall.

While there are many practicing LDS who do not exercise their Constitutional freedoms there are many that do. They serve in government. They vote. They are active in communities. They serve in the armed forces. They fight and they die. All the while through-out our history the members of the Church in the USA have been on record as a patriotic people even though as citizens we have been continually persecuted.

This rant is but one more of many condemnation of the Church and its members on these boards and it has no basis in reality.

I guess you're not familiar with the scriptures on this. Just what does "befriend" mean to you? This is a key word for you to look up on http://www.lds.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

[freedomforall]

How Mormons have failed America

Mormons are the only people on this planet who have been told by the Lord that He established the Constitution of the United States. And He told them how: that He established it by the hands of wise men whom He raised up unto that very purpose. He even told them that it was to be maintained for the rights and protection of all people, and that its princples were to be established forever.

Mormons have been told of the vital importance of learning the principles of the US Constitution as it was meant to be understood, and of defending, upholding and adhering to its principles.

Unfortunately, Mormons have failed America by not being united in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States. Not only have they ignored the admonitions in their scriptures and from their prophets and apostles to study, uphold, and abide by the principles of the US Constitution, but they have also largely ignored the warnings about secret combinations among them striving to gain control over their government and steal their wealth.

According to statements in the Doctrine and Covenants and recorded statements especially of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, Melvin J. Ballard, J. Reuben Clark, Harold B. Lee, and Ezra Taft Benson, it appears that God committed to Americans the task of learning and upholding the principles of the US Constitution as it was intended to be understood by the Lord such that by example those principles would reverberate to other nations where people would desire to live by its precepts and choose to be governed by them, and those principles would be established forever. Interesting that those statements were given specifically to Latter-day Saints.

Members of the LDS Church are the only people who have the prophetic warnings about the secret combination striving to get power in the form of control of government and wealth. Although the Lord has given us the knowledge and the responsibility to help reveal and oppose this secret combination, it seems that we have not had the wisdom to act on it, and consequently that conspiracy has gotten above us.

Mormons have been singled out to perform a divine mission to preserve the US Constitution from destruction. And we may yet be called upon as a people to exert great influence in helping to restore and preserve all of the liberties and freedoms vouchsafed to us in the Constitution of this land. The Lord revealed to his prophets that the greatest threat to the United States would be a vast, world-wide "secret combinsation" which would strive to destroy the US Constitution and overthrow the freedom of all nations.

But because of this failure on the part of the Mormon people, many others whom they might have inspired to study, embrace, and abide by the principles of the Constitution have been denied the opportunity to learn and act on those principles.

Not entirely accurate. Again, plenty of members of the church get involved in politics, vote, serve in the armed forces, and so on. However, true to the Lord's plan, there is agency, and not even God can force all members to be 100 percent without sin, nor can he force all members to be perfectly faithful either.

Put in mind that in the U.S. alone, a nation of 300+ million, Latter-Day Saints only comprise 5-6 million, which is a pretty miniscule chunk of the population, don't you think.

I am not going to say all is well in the church, because that's far from true. However, trust the Lord here, because the Church is his, and he is guiding the efforts. The church will ultimately be pushing for future raises in the bar for faithfulness to the Lord, similar as to how the Word of Wisdom, Temple Recommends, and Missionary Service have become ratcheted in their strictness over the years. The question is whether or not each and every one of us will remain on board, or drop because we don't want to try pushing on.

As far as warning about Secret Combinations, that is not a priority, the priority is preaching repentance. Why, because if one repents, that involves leaving whatever Secret Combination you were affiliated with in committing and buying into said sin. I honestly feel too many people look too far beyond the mark in what is referred to by Secret Combinations, much less the fact that if God orders us to share the gospel and encourage repentance, and not to aggressively pursue some mysterious secret combination: shouldn't we obey him as a first priority, and trust that he can handle the rest?

This is true as long as we can keep freedom alive. Without freedom we may lose the ability to teach the gospel because the commies will think nothing of shooting Christians in the head. Without freedom the church would be negated in its ability to go forward. We have been told in scripture to befriend the Constitution. We have also been told that the Constitution is akin to scripture...both given to us by God. Who can dispute this?

[InfoWarrior82]

Much better than a willfully Constitutional destroying candidate.

What about the Republican primaries?

I voted for Ron Paul, 3 or 4 times IIRC.

Ok. But my point still stands.

[InfoWarrior82]

How Mormons have failed America

Mormons are the only people on this planet who have been told by the Lord that He established the Constitution of the United States. And He told them how: that He established it by the hands of wise men whom He raised up unto that very purpose. He even told them that it was to be maintained for the rights and protection of all people, and that its princples were to be established forever.

Mormons have been told of the vital importance of learning the principles of the US Constitution as it was meant to be understood, and of defending, upholding and adhering to its principles.

Unfortunately, Mormons have failed America by not being united in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States. Not only have they ignored the admonitions in their scriptures and from their prophets and apostles to study, uphold, and abide by the principles of the US Constitution, but they have also largely ignored the warnings about secret combinations among them striving to gain control over their government and steal their wealth.

According to statements in the Doctrine and Covenants and recorded statements especially of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, Melvin J. Ballard, J. Reuben Clark, Harold B. Lee, and Ezra Taft Benson, it appears that God committed to Americans the task of learning and upholding the principles of the US Constitution as it was intended to be understood by the Lord such that by example those principles would reverberate to other nations where people would desire to live by its precepts and choose to be governed by them, and those principles would be established forever. Interesting that those statements were given specifically to Latter-day Saints.

Members of the LDS Church are the only people who have the prophetic warnings about the secret combination striving to get power in the form of control of government and wealth. Although the Lord has given us the knowledge and the responsibility to help reveal and oppose this secret combination, it seems that we have not had the wisdom to act on it, and consequently that conspiracy has gotten above us.

Mormons have been singled out to perform a divine mission to preserve the US Constitution from destruction. And we may yet be called upon as a people to exert great influence in helping to restore and preserve all of the liberties and freedoms vouchsafed to us in the Constitution of this land. The Lord revealed to his prophets that the greatest threat to the United States would be a vast, world-wide "secret combinsation" which would strive to destroy the US Constitution and overthrow the freedom of all nations.

But because of this failure on the part of the Mormon people, many others whom they might have inspired to study, embrace, and abide by the principles of the Constitution have been denied the opportunity to learn and act on those principles.

Not entirely accurate. Again, plenty of members of the church get involved in politics, vote, serve in the armed forces, and so on. However, true to the Lord's plan, there is agency, and not even God can force all members to be 100 percent without sin, nor can he force all members to be perfectly faithful either.

Put in mind that in the U.S. alone, a nation of 300+ million, Latter-Day Saints only comprise 5-6 million, which is a pretty miniscule chunk of the population, don't you think.

I am not going to say all is well in the church, because that's far from true. However, trust the Lord here, because the Church is his, and he is guiding the efforts. The church will ultimately be pushing for future raises in the bar for faithfulness to the Lord, similar as to how the Word of Wisdom, Temple Recommends, and Missionary Service have become ratcheted in their strictness over the years. The question is whether or not each and every one of us will remain on board, or drop because we don't want to try pushing on.

As far as warning about Secret Combinations, that is not a priority, the priority is preaching repentance. Why, because if one repents, that involves leaving whatever Secret Combination you were affiliated with in committing and buying into said sin. I honestly feel too many people look too far beyond the mark in what is referred to by Secret Combinations, much less the fact that if God orders us to share the gospel and encourage repentance, and not to aggressively pursue some mysterious secret combination: shouldn't we obey him as a first priority, and trust that he can handle the rest?

This is true as long as we can keep freedom alive. Without freedom we may lose the ability to teach the gospel because the commies will think nothing of shooting Christians in the head. Without freedom the church would be negated in its ability to go forward. We have been told in scripture to befriend the Constitution. We have also been told that the Constitution is akin to scripture...both given to us by God. Who can dispute this?

Exactly. The freedom and liberty which our constitution enables, is the reason why the restored gospel was brought forth here. Without that foundation, there goes the freedom to worship our Savior.

Once this concept is understood, it should become a no-brainer to any active latter day saint. The commandment to uphold and defend the divinely inspired constitution becomes crystal clear.

[freedomforall]

But because of this failure on the part of the Mormon people, many others whom they might have inspired to study, embrace, and abide by the principles of the Constitution have been denied the opportunity to learn and act on those principles.

What a crock of doo.

The Mormons have failed nothing.

First, there are some 5 to 6 million Mormons in the USA. Against a population of some 300+ million overall.

While there are many practicing LDS who do not exercise their Constitutional freedoms there are many that do. They serve in government. They vote. They are active in communities. They serve in the armed forces. They fight and they die. All the while through-out our history the members of the Church in the USA have been on record as a patriotic people even though as citizens we have been continually persecuted.

This rant is but one more of many condemnation of the Church and its members on these boards and it has no basis in reality.

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

What would Captain Moroni say? From what I know, he wasn't happy with so called Christians that wouldn't stand up for freedom. In fact he put many of them to death. They were called "kingman".

[HeirofNumenor]

What would Captain Moroni say? From what I know, he wasn't happy with so called Christians that wouldn't stand up for freedom. In fact he put many of them to death. They were called "kingman".

Ummmmmmm - not quite.

The Kingmen had another dimension that you left out - they actively supported clear and blatant efforts to destroy the form of government by electing a king (who would then destroy the Church)....AND then actively supported the political loser in his armed rebellion (including inciting/taking command of the Lamanite armies)...AND they actively hindered the legitimate government from supporting the righteous war effort...AND they ended up usurping the Government anyway.

This is a far cry from apathetic, comfortable LDS/Americans who voted GOP.

[freedomforall]

How Mormons have failed America

Mormons are the only people on this planet who have been told by the Lord that He established the Constitution of the United States. And He told them how: that He established it by the hands of wise men whom He raised up unto that very purpose. He even told them that it was to be maintained for the rights and protection of all people, and that its princples were to be established forever.

Mormons have been told of the vital importance of learning the principles of the US Constitution as it was meant to be understood, and of defending, upholding and adhering to its principles.

Unfortunately, Mormons have failed America by not being united in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States. Not only have they ignored the admonitions in their scriptures and from their prophets and apostles to study, uphold, and abide by the principles of the US Constitution, but they have also largely ignored the warnings about secret combinations among them striving to gain control over their government and steal their wealth.

According to statements in the Doctrine and Covenants and recorded statements especially of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, Melvin J. Ballard, J. Reuben Clark, Harold B. Lee, and Ezra Taft Benson, it appears that God committed to Americans the task of learning and upholding the principles of the US Constitution as it was intended to be understood by the Lord such that by example those principles would reverberate to other nations where people would desire to live by its precepts and choose to be governed by them, and those principles would be established forever. Interesting that those statements were given specifically to Latter-day Saints.

Members of the LDS Church are the only people who have the prophetic warnings about the secret combination striving to get power in the form of control of government and wealth. Although the Lord has given us the knowledge and the responsibility to help reveal and oppose this secret combination, it seems that we have not had the wisdom to act on it, and consequently that conspiracy has gotten above us.

Mormons have been singled out to perform a divine mission to preserve the US Constitution from destruction. And we may yet be called upon as a people to exert great influence in helping to restore and preserve all of the liberties and freedoms vouchsafed to us in the Constitution of this land. The Lord revealed to his prophets that the greatest threat to the United States would be a vast, world-wide "secret combinsation" which would strive to destroy the US Constitution and overthrow the freedom of all nations.

But because of this failure on the part of the Mormon people, many others whom they might have inspired to study, embrace, and abide by the principles of the Constitution have been denied the opportunity to learn and act on those principles.

This is true as long as we can keep freedom alive. Without freedom we may lose the ability to teach the gospel because the commies will think nothing of shooting Christians in the head. Without freedom the church would be negated in its ability to go forward. We have been told in scripture to befriend the Constitution. We have also been told that the Constitution is akin to scripture...both given to us by God. Who can dispute this?

Exactly. The freedom and liberty which our constitution enables, is the reason why the restored gospel was brought forth here. Without that foundation, there goes the freedom to worship our Savior.

Once this concept is understood, it should become a no-brainer to any active latter day saint. The commandment to uphold and defend the divinely inspired constitution becomes crystal clear.

:-BD

Some members just don't get it. If they were to search the scriptures, read statements by church leaders pertaining to the Constitution, study the Constitution...and understand what they read...they wouldn't say such falsities. They would revere the Constitution more; they would seek to protect it, to declare it before the world, because God declared this land to be the Promised Land, to be a free people, and if they were to remain righteous and befriend the Constitution it would be a land of liberty unto them.

[freedomforall]

What would Captain Moroni say? From what I know, he wasn't happy with so called Christians that wouldn't stand up for freedom. In fact he put many of them to death. They were called "kingman".

Ummmmmmm - not quite.

The Kingmen had another dimension that you conveniently left out - they actively supported clear and blatant efforts to destroy the form of government by electing a king (who would then destroy the Church)....AND then actively supported the political loser in his armed rebellion (including inciting/taking command of the Lamanite armies)...AND they actively hindered the legitimate government from supporting the righteous war effort...AND they ended up usurping the Government anyway.

This is a far cry from apathetic, comfortable LDS/Americans who voted GOP.

Please Be more honest, accurate, and truthful in applying your condemnations. :-B

Only if you're into splitting hairs.

Here read it for yourself

Alma 46:34-36
34 Now, Moroni being a man who was appointed by the chief judges and the voice of the people, therefore he had power according to his will with the armies of the Nephites, to establish and to exercise authority over them.
35 And it came to pass that whomsoever of the Amalickiahites that would not enter into a covenant to support the cause of freedom, that they might maintain a free government, he caused to be put to death; and there were but few who denied the covenant of freedom.
36 And it came to pass also, that he caused the title of liberty to be hoisted upon every tower which was in all the land, which was possessed by the Nephites; and thus Moroni planted the standard of liberty among the Nephites.

Now what do you have to say?

[HeirofNumenor]

I say that in THIS scripture you are accurate....(at this point in their wars). :ymhug:

[freedomforall]

I say that in THIS scripture you are accurate....(at this point in their wars). :ymhug:

And what is our "Title Of Liberty" today?

[jeanpierre]

Indeed, "What about the Republican primaries?" In both 2008 and 2012 !

[HeirofNumenor]

I say that in THIS scripture you are accurate....(at this point in their wars). :ymhug:

And what is our "Title Of Liberty" today?

Frankly, at this stage of our history - I'd say it's more likely to be The Proclamation on the Family...

[Jnewby]

I would say there is much truth and many good on both sides of this argument. I will point out that when the Lord provides information, the expectation level increases as it should. Have we honored that information in regards to upholding the constitution? Several prophets have already weighed in on this and the answer is probably a resounding NO. All is certainly not well in Zion, but then it isn't well in many places.

To comment on a couple comments just a bit.

First, just because we serve and die in the military overseas in what might be considered an unconstitutional battle, doesn't make us patriotic, it makes us part of the problem. Having served in the military and coming from a family of military, it pains me to say that. We are doing everything the Founders and the Book of Mormon tells us NOT to do - that just means we are sheep, not a solution.

Secondly, just because we vote and run for office doesn't mean anything if we don't serve in office in the way the Lord would have us serve. A uneducated vote isn't living up to our destiny, it is aiding and abetting the enemy.

Are Mormons more or less to blame than anyone else? I think not, however, I also believe the expectation might be greater for us than for the average Joe down the street. There are many LDS that should be commended for their role in attempting to uphold and honor the Constitution, but by in large, I would not place us as a whole in that category.

[Liberty_Agent]

Christianity in general has failed America. It has been corrupted by the world around them.

[djinwa]

There are way too many Mormons upholding secret combinations and don't even know it.

You know we are in trouble when 90+ % of Mormons voted for a constitutionally illiterate presidential candidate.

Yep, I once started a thread about my embarrassment for church members in our area. They became interested in politics because Romney was Mormon, yet couldn't tell me what he stood for. Suddenly principles mattered less than popularity, just like the church teaches, right?

The church is accused of being a cult, and the members displayed cult-like behavior at our county convention. They passed a rule saying all those running for a state delegate slot had to declare whether they would support the eventual party candidate, regardless of what he stood for.

Of course, Ron Paul delegates declared we would stand for principle and the Constitution, and most were defeated.

Church members act like humans in general - herd animals. Tribalism explains it:

http://bigthink.com/risk-reason-and-rea ... -dangerous" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[lundbaek]

Recent discussions persuade me to resurrect this thread even if only for the benefit of members new to the forum since 20 Feb 2013. Besides, if Robert Sinclair can bang mostly one note on the piano so can I. Of course I've been doing it longer than he has.