City Creek Poll

[jbalm]

Whoa. Sounds like rationalizing blind servitude there. No thanks.

Blind? No, I've never been accused of being blind anything. Rationally reasoned and considered? Yes. I don't blindly give my allegiance to any one or thing, not even to God, let alone His servants. However, my personal experiences and revelations lead me to trust in my testimony of them, and I follow them indofar as my conscience allows me. That doesn't, in any way, stop me from questioning things.

Fair enough.

Personally, I couldn't place that much trust in any person unless I know them personally - and very very well. Different strokes, eh?

[Thinker]

Do you know what billions could have done for members in impoverished nations? Imagine those without potable water in a nation like Ethiopia getting a culinary water system or well or pumps installed for fresh drinking water... not only would something like that keep people alive and hydrated, it would also reduce disease and death. Oh, but I guess they need the trials and adversity of death and suffering to keep them all humble and reliant on the Lord. And how many homeless shelters could $3 BILLION have constructed around the U.S.? There are a multitude of examples of what the church could have done with billions instead of a luxury mall in downtown SLC that caters to the rich and Babylon or provides $8/hr. jobs for bored LDS teenagers. That's how I feel... sorry.

Exactly.
It is so obvious what Christ did and would do, that it breaks my heart that other members don't see it, but would rather cling to prioritizing imperfect flesh.

As Joseph Smith taught, the greatest battles are not fought on the battlefield, but are between principles, as we are discussing now.
Keep heart! Keep up the good fight!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mPMpcHL2c4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


SingYourWayHome,
I'm sure you have good intentions, but you're comments reflect a lack of clarity, a lack of charity/Godly love.
Logical fallacy was all you could offer in the face of axiomatic truth, giving example of the quotes you tried to argue. Your priority is not God/Truth - but ideas that are comfortable to you. You base your beliefs on a shaky foundation of deciding if something is true by who said it, instead of whether it is true or not. You contradicted the base of your own argument... you justified neglecting those in need by claiming money isn't the answer, but then you support the greed represented by this church-sponsored shopping mall financial "investment."

Joseph Smith taught that we should seek truth wherever it is found.
He didn't limit the truth he accepted by the authorities of religious organizations, neither did Jesus.

Still, if you need permission to search for truth without limits, here you go...
Brigham Young said "if we do not seek out truth wherever it may be found, we will not come out true Mormons".
"It is the business of man to find the spiritual meaning of earthly things." -John A. Widstoe
"Searching for truth is an obligation." -R.L. Evans
"No man can hope to find out the truth without investigation." -George F. Richards (And I'd add... continual searching, since truth is dynamic, not static.)
"If we value house, if we value lands, if we value good name, if we value even life itself more than we do the truth we are unworthy of the truth." -G.Q. Cannon
"Any open-minded search for truth requires courage, constancy, & humility." -H.B. Brown

[skmo]

Fair enough.

Personally, I couldn't place that much trust in any person unless I know them personally - and very very well. Different strokes, eh?

J, you know enough of my history to know that I certainly don't trust people I know personally. I've recently been far too badly burned by those I considered close to me. Indeed, the whole concept of trust is almost a foreign idea to me these days. However, my testimony does allow me to place trust in the Lord and His servants, at least as much as I can trust anyone these days.

[HeirofNumenor]

Having crack dealers and hookers dealing their wares right outside temple grounds isn't what I'd like to see, like I do in downtown Denver, Sacramento, Baltimore, etc.

Why on earth would crack dealers and hookers seek out church headquarters?!

Because it is in the city center...and nearly EVERY city in America turns to decay and blight as the suburbs grow and most people and businesses abandon the inner cities - leaving only the poor, the underclass and "rif-raff" there - while crime grows in the now-abandoned downtown. This is why almost every major city in America has invested millions if not billions to revitalize their downtowns. To build new businesses, food and entertainment venues, upscale shops & housing attracts those who will spend money, be concerned about their local environment, and insist the city take measure to protect the area. Hence massage parlors, adult bookstores/theaters, & strip clubs (all prostitution magnets), tattoo parlors, bong sellers, pawn shops, etc., were all chased out of every downtown area being revitalized - because they attract criminals, drug addicts & dealers, drunkards, prostitutes, pan-handlers, mentally ill, etc., and people don't want to go into areas where they feel they may be assaulted or threatened in some manner. Not to mention the Cities get new tax revenue to help keep up their services.

For several decades, SLC has had a problem with prostitution, boozers, drug users, crime, etc. (SLC police chief Cleon Skousen was fired in the 1950's for being TOO effective at fighting them). While they may not have been right outside the walls of Temple Square, they were usually only one-two blocks away - and people had to walk through/drive by them to get to Temple Square. You may have a fit that the Church cares about appearances, but when Temple Square is a major way that out-of-state visitors learn about the Gospel and Church - then environment matters...City Creek therefore is an extension of redevelopment projects for the last decade or so surrounding Temple Square. Plus since Temple Square is Utah's #1 tourist attraction, the City and State has an interest in the are being nice so that they can collect more taxes.

The area surrounding the Temple in Mesa, AZ is now a major blight, and I bet the city govt there would love to have the LDS Church come in and revitalize it - and the only people who would oppose would be those who are either:
a) anti-mormon or otherwise @#!*% at the Church
b) think that all Churches should have any money (all must be spent on the poor ASAP - even above building houses of worship and other religious facilities)
c) think that all religions should be taxed heavily

Now this all may raise additional questions about how we care for the poor, underclass, minorities, mentally ill, drugs, etc., but these are issues which reflect on ALL AMERICA - not simply to pin it on the LDS Church. And all of these problems have their solutions in either repentance of the individuals who are in the dregs of these problems, and/or massive change in policies by governments, corporations, and above all - the PTB bankers.

[skmo]

Do you know what billions could have done for members in impoverished nations? Imagine those without potable water in a nation like Ethiopia getting a culinary water system or well or pumps installed for fresh drinking water... not only would something like that keep people alive and hydrated, it would also reduce disease and death..

Exactly.
SingYourWayHome,
I'm sure you have good intentions, but you're comments reflect a lack of clarity, a lack of charity/Godly love.

No. It reflects the judgement of our inspired leaders of something they saw that should be done that was within their sphere of possibilities to do. Much of the effort to bring prosperity, or even humanity to parts of the world have resulted in even more corruption to an already troubled area. Most of the food sent to the starving nations of Africa got hijacked by warlords and doled out to those they deemed worthy of their support, or worse, were made to sit in ships at port until they rotted and were of no value. I know there is suffering going on, but we can only do what we're aloowed to do by the standards of those who will allow us to do it. You see with your eyes. I see with mine. While we may see some of the same things, we may interpret them differently. however, God's leaders see with His eyes, and until they demonstrate a falling away, I don't presume to tell them how to do their jobs. I follow what's happening, I pray I will be led in what I do and how I follow, but I have no business telling God's leaders how to run his church.

[jbalm]

Fair enough.

Personally, I couldn't place that much trust in any person unless I know them personally - and very very well. Different strokes, eh?

J, you know enough of my history to know that I certainly don't trust people I know personally. I've recently been far too badly burned by those I considered close to me. Indeed, the whole concept of trust is almost a foreign idea to me these days. However, my testimony does allow me to place trust in the Lord and His servants, at least as much as I can trust anyone these days.

I feel ya'.

Trust is a scarce commodity these days. I guess I responded too flippantly to your post. No offense intended.

[AussieOi]

"McMullin said City Creek exists to combat urban blight, not to fill church coffers. "Will there be a return?" he asked rhetorically. "Yes, but so modest that you would never have made such an investment — the real return comes in folks moving back downtown and the revitalization of businesses." Pausing briefly, he adds, with deliberation, "it's for furthering the aim of the church to make, if you will, bad men good, and good men better."

From here:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54478 ... l.html.csp\



Not even the church officials claim this was to make money. All the "wise investment" talk is a red herring (or a strawman if you prefer -- some people think everything is a strawman).

The stated purpose is to combat urban blight. Why can't this be taken at face value?

Why not? Because for a lot of people their only argument in defense of.this goes out the window.
you know, inspired, talents and all that, vs those elements of Christ's doctrine we thought were fruits if his church

[hyloglyph]

Sorry for lurking, i just now saw this thread. I have served in the church in the 3rd world. Spending a billion plus dollars in Salt Lake boggles my mind. I am absolutely without words. I have no idea why this was done or how some people can justify it. But it's not on me, although I pay tithing, I'm not in leadership, and I was never given even a chance to vote or withhold my consent.

37 For behold, ye do love amoney, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

[skmo]

I feel ya'.

Trust is a scarce commodity these days. I guess I responded too flippantly to your post. No offense intended.

None taken. One of my guiding principles is a quote from Brigham Young:

He who takes offence when no offence was meant is a fool, and he who takes offence when offence was meant is usually a fool.

[ajax]

Sorry for lurking, i just now saw this thread. I have served in the church in the 3rd world. Spending a billion plus dollars in Salt Lake boggles my mind. I am absolutely without words. I have no idea why this was done or how some people can justify it. But it's not on me, although I pay tithing, I'm not in leadership, and I was never given even a chance to vote or withhold my consent.

37 For behold, ye do love amoney, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

+1, curious, was this the first you've heard of it?

[hyloglyph]

Haha oh no, I've heard of it before, but actually only a few months ago. I'm outside of Utah, and upon learning about it I asked my younger brother and then my mother about it, and they hadn't heard of it. We are all normal, active members and just didn't know. I don't think the news spread very far outside of Utah. Unless one is actively searching and reading things about the church online, most members where I'm at don't know of it.
I personally had been in a slight depression in regards to all things church related, until my very good friend AGStacker recommended a book/author to me a few months back, which resonated deeply with me and gave voice to some concerns that I had always had but could never articulate very well. This got me straight back into all things Gospel and that is when I came across the whole City Creek debacle.

[Seek the Truth]

"McMullin said City Creek exists to combat urban blight, not to fill church coffers. "Will there be a return?" he asked rhetorically. "Yes, but so modest that you would never have made such an investment — the real return comes in folks moving back downtown and the revitalization of businesses." Pausing briefly, he adds, with deliberation, "it's for furthering the aim of the church to make, if you will, bad men good, and good men better."

From here:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54478 ... l.html.csp\



Not even the church officials claim this was to make money. All the "wise investment" talk is a red herring (or a strawman if you prefer -- some people think everything is a strawman).

The stated purpose is to combat urban blight. Why can't this be taken at face value?

Why not? Because for a lot of people their only argument in defense of.this goes out the window.
you know, inspired, talents and all that, vs those elements of Christ's doctrine we thought were fruits if his church

I wouldn't take the comment at face value because it is an edited quote in a newspaper out of context.

[ebenezerarise]

Haha oh no, I've heard of it before, but actually only a few months ago. I'm outside of Utah, and upon learning about it I asked my younger brother and then my mother about it, and they hadn't heard of it. We are all normal, active members and just didn't know. I don't think the news spread very far outside of Utah. Unless one is actively searching and reading things about the church online, most members where I'm at don't know of it.
I personally had been in a slight depression in regards to all things church related, until my very good friend AGStacker recommended a book/author to me a few months back, which resonated deeply with me and gave voice to some concerns that I had always had but could never articulate very well. This got me straight back into all things Gospel and that is when I came across the whole City Creek debacle.

President Hinckley discussed it in General Conference in 2003 and 2004.

[Nephi294]

"McMullin said City Creek exists to combat urban blight, not to fill church coffers. "Will there be a return?" he asked rhetorically. "Yes, but so modest that you would never have made such an investment — the real return comes in folks moving back downtown and the revitalization of businesses." Pausing briefly, he adds, with deliberation, "it's for furthering the aim of the church to make, if you will, bad men good, and good men better."

Pure bunk Mr. McMullin - City Creek is a Babylonian endeavor to make money and nothing more and there are dozens of scriptures that condemn such an undertaking. Someone in our local media needs to ask Mr. McMullin why it's a church's responsibility to spend billions to attempt to modernize the downtown area of a city to try and bring in renewed business and tourism to the area. The comment that 'we believe someone cannot blossom spiritually unless they blossom temporally' was one of the most absurd things I've ever heard anyone utter - tell that to the Saints in impoverished nations like South Africa who pay tithing in kind or on their meager earnings who attend church faithfully each week who save up 6 months just to take their family to the temple. #-o

The stated purpose is to combat urban blight.

Yeah, I'm sure Christ and the Lord are concerned about 'urban blight' in downtown SLC. )

So Flagg are you calling Elder McMullin a liar along with all the other General Authorities?

[hyloglyph]

Haha oh no, I've heard of it before, but actually only a few months ago. I'm outside of Utah, and upon learning about it I asked my younger brother and then my mother about it, and they hadn't heard of it. We are all normal, active members and just didn't know. I don't think the news spread very far outside of Utah. Unless one is actively searching and reading things about the church online, most members where I'm at don't know of it.
I personally had been in a slight depression in regards to all things church related, until my very good friend AGStacker recommended a book/author to me a few months back, which resonated deeply with me and gave voice to some concerns that I had always had but could never articulate very well. This got me straight back into all things Gospel and that is when I came across the whole City Creek debacle.

President Hinckley discussed it in General Conference in 2003 and 2004.

Yes I know it was mentioned by President Hinckley. But to people not familiar with the layout of downtown Salt Lake this did not mean much. And although he assured no "tithing" money would be used, no exact mention was made of what funds would be used(income from Church businesses, rents on the property, and other such sources make this possible), and how much it would cost. When I first heard about it, I thought nothing of it. I think it would have pricked a lot more peoples ears if he would have said ---The church is about to spend one and a half BILLION dollars to put in a high end shopping center and fill it with high end stores and condos.

[hyloglyph]

"McMullin said City Creek exists to combat urban blight, not to fill church coffers. "Will there be a return?" he asked rhetorically. "Yes, but so modest that you would never have made such an investment — the real return comes in folks moving back downtown and the revitalization of businesses." Pausing briefly, he adds, with deliberation, "it's for furthering the aim of the church to make, if you will, bad men good, and good men better."

Pure bunk Mr. McMullin - City Creek is a Babylonian endeavor to make money and nothing more and there are dozens of scriptures that condemn such an undertaking. Someone in our local media needs to ask Mr. McMullin why it's a church's responsibility to spend billions to attempt to modernize the downtown area of a city to try and bring in renewed business and tourism to the area. The comment that 'we believe someone cannot blossom spiritually unless they blossom temporally' was one of the most absurd things I've ever heard anyone utter - tell that to the Saints in impoverished nations like South Africa who pay tithing in kind or on their meager earnings who attend church faithfully each week who save up 6 months just to take their family to the temple. #-o

The stated purpose is to combat urban blight.

Yeah, I'm sure Christ and the Lord are concerned about 'urban blight' in downtown SLC. )

So Flagg are you calling Elder McMullin a liar along with all the other General Authorities?

haha this is a crazy question. No one has called anyone a liar. Relax a bit.

[HeirofNumenor]

"McMullin said City Creek exists to combat urban blight, not to fill church coffers. "Will there be a return?" he asked rhetorically. "Yes, but so modest that you would never have made such an investment — the real return comes in folks moving back downtown and the revitalization of businesses." Pausing briefly, he adds, with deliberation, "it's for furthering the aim of the church to make, if you will, bad men good, and good men better."

Pure bunk Mr. McMullin - City Creek is a Babylonian endeavor to make money and nothing more and there are dozens of scriptures that condemn such an undertaking. Someone in our local media needs to ask Mr. McMullin why it's a church's responsibility to spend billions to attempt to modernize the downtown area of a city to try and bring in renewed business and tourism to the area. The comment that 'we believe someone cannot blossom spiritually unless they blossom temporally' was one of the most absurd things I've ever heard anyone utter - tell that to the Saints in impoverished nations like South Africa who pay tithing in kind or on their meager earnings who attend church faithfully each week who save up 6 months just to take their family to the temple. #-o

The stated purpose is to combat urban blight.

Yeah, I'm sure Christ and the Lord are concerned about 'urban blight' in downtown SLC. )

So Flagg are you calling Elder McMullin a liar along with all the other General Authorities?

haha this is a crazy question. No one has called anyone a liar. Relax a bit.

Actually, the words I highlighted in RED make it pretty clear that Col Flagg is at best openly questioning Bro. McMullin's honesty, if not outright calling him a liar...("Pure Bunk")

[samizdat]

Whether or not to pay tithing is an issue within my stewardship.
Whether or not to build a mall in downtown SLC is an issue outside of my stewardship.
Whether or not the brethren (as individuals) are being led by the Lord is something I don't really know for sure,
but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and keep paying tithing, trusting in the Lord to steady
HIS church.

Bingo. I don't live in Salt Lake, nor in Utah, nor in the USA. This issue doesn't bother me one bit.

[Col. Flagg]

Sorry for lurking, i just now saw this thread. I have served in the church in the 3rd world. Spending a billion plus dollars in Salt Lake boggles my mind. I am absolutely without words. I have no idea why this was done or how some people can justify it. But it's not on me, although I pay tithing, I'm not in leadership, and I was never given even a chance to vote or withhold my consent.

37 For behold, ye do love amoney, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

Not just a billion, $3 billion, and some estimates put the final tally at $5 billion, but the church does not disclose its finances or report to its membership how it spends monies or what sums of money were spent on whatever project. We're just supposed to accept and trust without knowing or questioning anything. Great post by the way... I don't know how many times I've posted those scriptures in other City Creek-related threads. :ymapplause:

[hyloglyph]

Actually, the words I highlighted in RED make it pretty clear that Col Flagg is at best openly questioning Bro. McMullin's honesty, if not outright calling him a liar...("Pure Bunk")[/quote]

Haha honestly relax a bit. I already read that.

He is just saying that what McMullin is saying doesn't make much sense. Jeez you guys are trying to force people into taking a stance against the church it seems. Lets chill out. I think we can all agree that true God-fearing people cringe at excess, fine apparel, money changing, fine jewelry, etc. I have lived in places where it is common to not have money enough to buy food for more than 1 or 2 days at a time. It is normal for people who are aware of this to be concerned about our American excess, even when it is in our own church. No one is calling any GA a liar. Relax a bit.

[hyloglyph]

Sorry for lurking, i just now saw this thread. I have served in the church in the 3rd world. Spending a billion plus dollars in Salt Lake boggles my mind. I am absolutely without words. I have no idea why this was done or how some people can justify it. But it's not on me, although I pay tithing, I'm not in leadership, and I was never given even a chance to vote or withhold my consent.

37 For behold, ye do love amoney, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

Not just a billion, $3 billion, and some estimates put the final tally at $5 billion, but the church does not disclose its finances or report to its membership how it spends monies or what sums of money were spent on whatever project. We're just supposed to accept and trust without knowing or questioning anything. Great post by the way... I don't know how many times I've posted those scriptures in other City Creek-related threads. :ymapplause:

Thanks Col,

Those verses (and many more) really seem to be jumping off the page at us huh? I guess that's why it's better to just keep the book closed.
right?

[Col. Flagg]

Sorry for lurking, i just now saw this thread. I have served in the church in the 3rd world. Spending a billion plus dollars in Salt Lake boggles my mind. I am absolutely without words. I have no idea why this was done or how some people can justify it. But it's not on me, although I pay tithing, I'm not in leadership, and I was never given even a chance to vote or withhold my consent.

37 For behold, ye do love amoney, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

Not just a billion, $3 billion, and some estimates put the final tally at $5 billion, but the church does not disclose its finances or report to its membership how it spends monies or what sums of money were spent on whatever project. We're just supposed to accept and trust without knowing or questioning anything. Great post by the way... I don't know how many times I've posted those scriptures in other City Creek-related threads. :ymapplause:

Thanks Col,

Those verses (and many more) really seem to be jumping off the page at us huh? I guess that's why it's better to just keep the book closed.
right?

Ignorance is bliss they say.

[Col. Flagg]

Haha oh no, I've heard of it before, but actually only a few months ago. I'm outside of Utah, and upon learning about it I asked my younger brother and then my mother about it, and they hadn't heard of it. We are all normal, active members and just didn't know. I don't think the news spread very far outside of Utah. Unless one is actively searching and reading things about the church online, most members where I'm at don't know of it.
I personally had been in a slight depression in regards to all things church related, until my very good friend AGStacker recommended a book/author to me a few months back, which resonated deeply with me and gave voice to some concerns that I had always had but could never articulate very well. This got me straight back into all things Gospel and that is when I came across the whole City Creek debacle.

Everyone wakes up at some point and I would hope when anyone sees something wrong, an injustice or actions/decisions contrary to who and what we are as members of the gospel that they would speak up and not be silent. Given the amount of money involved in the City Creek project, the church should have gone back to the 'by common consent' law and asked the members for a vote - at the very least that's what they could have done and in fact, this is how things were done early on in the church when it came to matters of finance and expenditures, but it ended at some point, along with the church disclosing its finances to the general membership during GC's. Anyway - we aren't a body of sheep that the Lord expects to follow blindly without disapproval and there was a reason things used to be done by common consent within the church.

[jbalm]

Baaaaaa

[Fielding]

Removed.