City Creek Poll

[Seek the Truth]

Which decision are you referring to? Building the mall or cutting back? I found out about the mall years ago and had no objection or acceptance to it. I really didn't care then. But the Lord has taught me a lot since then. At the time, I was opposed to giving handouts to beggars and things like that because of how I was taught. I am not the same person now as I was then. Now, the thought of pushing away poor people, for any reason, is heartbreaking to me.

And as stated above, I would hardly expect the mayor to object to the mall. Put me on the ground among the people who have been most affected by it and let me find out what they have to say. As for me, because of the need to reduce spending worldwide (I was in Korea when I heard about that) I am unhappy with their decision to spend so much money on a business venture.

The more you spend the more you make.

[Thinker]

Yes, there are people who have stopped paying tithing from this -

The sifting has commenced. Fact is this- some are wheat and some are tares but agency allows the choice.


"Testimony alone is not and will not be enough to protect us in the latter-day storm of darkness and evil in which we are living. Testimony is important and necessary but not sufficient to provide the spiritual strength and protection we need. Some members of the Church with testimonies have wavered and fallen away. Their spiritual knowledge and commitment did not measure up to the challenges they faced." Elder Bednar

It depends on how you define testimony.

If you define testimony as a "firsthand authentication of a fact" or "a public profession of religious experience" - as in professing that the LDS church is 100% true & perfect without flaw... then I'd agree that testimony is not enough - not even close. Facts are not set in stone (just consider medical books 100 years ago), but are one possible, likely assumption of truth. All things will fail, including imperfect organizations. Only charity - the pure love of Christ/God - never faileth.

But I define testimony as a person's spiritual awareness, based on continual effort to discover truth/good news, no matter where that truth is found, or what it is. I do not consider testimony to be limited to a religion's articles of faith, but expanded to the infinite God of truth.

[Seek the Truth]

I don't know, we have to temper with reality. In today's day and age beggars=junkies and mental health cases, which either seek enabling or are safety risks. I imagine in more primitive settings poverty issues and beggaring were a bit different.

And tbh, I think most of us have come to realize this in the last few decades, and when the economy turned I re-evaluated it. However, after some experience with it I have come back to giving a street person money likely equals booze and drugs and people with mental issues need professional help more than my help.

It comes back to, the brethren are far more in tune with all these issue thatn we are, the Lord gave them the stewardship and we sustain them in that calling.

[Thinker]

When I think about history & how we have either learned or failed to learn from it... what concerns me most is the eagerness for people to follow herds, to blindly follow anyone.
"The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduces them. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim." -Gustave Le Bon
"Insanity in individuals is rare—but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs, it is the rule." -Friedrich Nietzsche

It's concerning when brothers and sisters so unconditionally follow those who profess to act in the name of Christ but prioritize investing in shopping malls over caring for the many of our brothers and sisters in need.
"The worst sin towards our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them; that’s the essence of inhumanity." -George Bernard Shaw
http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Lea ... 202002.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=526BTs_DRoE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ajax]

The results so far from this highly scientific and incredibly thorough poll :ymsick:

[Since there are only 4 SLC votes, I conflated those into Utah. This also takes into account a PM vote I received(No-not in Utah) and a couple posts of persons unable to vote due to format.

Total - 47% for; 53% against

Utah - 53% for; 47% against

Non-Utah - 38% for; 62% against

[Seek the Truth]

When I think about history & how we have either learned or failed to learn from it... what concerns me most is the eagerness for people to follow herds, to blindly follow anyone.
"The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduces them. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim." -Gustave Le Bon
"Insanity in individuals is rare—but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs, it is the rule." -Friedrich Nietzsche

It's concerning when brothers and sisters so unconditionally follow those who profess to act in the name of Christ but prioritize investing in shopping malls over caring for the many of our brothers and sisters in need.
"The worst sin towards our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them; that’s the essence of inhumanity." -George Bernard Shaw
http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Lea ... 202002.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=526BTs_DRoE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Church needs money. If the economy worsens and tithing dips having this as an income producing asset will be essential.

If you take say $1 billion and give it away in a month's time, you did a a good thing but the money's gone. If you take it and invest it wisely, then it will provide income for good purposes indefinitely.

Any entity that relies on one source of income is worse off than those that have more. A diversified income stream.

It's inaccurate to say people blindly follow this. I support with eyes wide open.

[jbalm]

"McMullin said City Creek exists to combat urban blight, not to fill church coffers. "Will there be a return?" he asked rhetorically. "Yes, but so modest that you would never have made such an investment — the real return comes in folks moving back downtown and the revitalization of businesses." Pausing briefly, he adds, with deliberation, "it's for furthering the aim of the church to make, if you will, bad men good, and good men better."

From here:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54478 ... l.html.csp\

Not even the church officials claim this was to make money. All the "wise investment" talk is a red herring (or a strawman if you prefer -- some people think everything is a strawman).

The stated purpose is to combat urban blight. Why can't this be taken at face value?

[Col. Flagg]

The Church needs money.

Isn't that what tithing and fast offerings are?

If the economy worsens and tithing dips having this as an income producing asset will be essential.

What has happened to private and commercial real estate values over the last 4 years? What's been happening to malls across the nation? Will people be clamoring to walk into City Creek mall to drop $100 for a pair of shoes or $6.00 for a caramel apple if the economy tanks?

If you take say $1 billion and give it away in a month's time, you did a a good thing but the money's gone. If you take it and invest it wisely, then it will provide income for good purposes indefinitely.

Are church's supposed to be 'investing' members monies to make a profit? And at what point does it end where the monies are all used for righteous purposes?

Any entity that relies on one source of income is worse off than those that have more. A diversified income stream.

Again... are church's supposed to make decisions like for-profit corporations?

[singyourwayhome]

Col. Flagg-

The church owns for-profit corporations. In those cases, yes, they should make decisions that are appropriate for that kind of entity. I believe, though, that their decision was also based on what would help create jobs and vibrancy to a community.

Returning repeatedly to the argument about City Creek is not constructive because it goes in circles, endlessly. Let's instead discuss the principles behind it- how do we best help people become self-reliant? That's really the question behind the expediture, is it not?

When I think about history & how we have either learned or failed to learn from it... what concerns me most is the eagerness for people to follow herds, to blindly follow anyone.
"The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduces them. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim." -Gustave Le Bon
"Insanity in individuals is rare—but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs, it is the rule." -Friedrich Nietzsche

It's concerning when brothers and sisters so unconditionally follow those who profess to act in the name of Christ but prioritize investing in shopping malls over caring for the many of our brothers and sisters in need.
"The worst sin towards our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them; that’s the essence of inhumanity." -George Bernard Shaw
http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Lea ... 202002.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=526BTs_DRoE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wow. You give us quotes from:
1- a sociologist who helped inspire Sigmund Freud, Adolf Hitler, Mussolini, Edward Bernays, Teddy Roosevelt, and "the fascist theories of leadership that emerged during the 1920s". (see here)
2-a man I consider, based on his writings, to be our modern Korihor, and
3- a Fabian socialist

They speak bits of truth, but give 'solutions' that are the opposite of God's, hollow promises that give stifling and damning results. So did Satan, in the War in Heaven.

Is it more important what becomes of us, or of what we become? And what actions will lead us to become wiser, more self-reliant, and more acknowledging of the absolute necessity of work and obedience?

I also believe that a great sin of our time now towards the needy is that we "notice them not". I'm not hard-lining the obligation to help and serve each other. We just understand very differently how that is best accomplished. Go read all the information on lds.org and providentliving.org on the welfare system and "the Lord's Way". I especially recommend reading what was written by the general authorities who helped set up the program, like Heber J. Grant, j. Reuben Clark, and Marion G. Romney. Or ask your bishop what the best way to help someone needy in your ward is. He won't say the solution is to throw money at them. There are several components to being self-reliant, only one of which is having money. You miss the others, and then you'll miss the money because it will fly out the window due to your choices and circumstances.

[Col. Flagg]

"McMullin said City Creek exists to combat urban blight, not to fill church coffers. "Will there be a return?" he asked rhetorically. "Yes, but so modest that you would never have made such an investment — the real return comes in folks moving back downtown and the revitalization of businesses." Pausing briefly, he adds, with deliberation, "it's for furthering the aim of the church to make, if you will, bad men good, and good men better."

Pure bunk Mr. McMullin - City Creek is a Babylonian endeavor to make money and nothing more and there are dozens of scriptures that condemn such an undertaking. Someone in our local media needs to ask Mr. McMullin why it's a church's responsibility to spend billions to attempt to modernize the downtown area of a city to try and bring in renewed business and tourism to the area. The comment that 'we believe someone cannot blossom spiritually unless they blossom temporally' was one of the most absurd things I've ever heard anyone utter - tell that to the Saints in impoverished nations like South Africa who pay tithing in kind or on their meager earnings who attend church faithfully each week who save up 6 months just to take their family to the temple. #-o

The stated purpose is to combat urban blight.

Yeah, I'm sure Christ and the Lord are concerned about 'urban blight' in downtown SLC. )

[Col. Flagg]

Col. Flagg-

The church owns for-profit corporations. In those cases, yes, they should make decisions that are appropriate for that kind of entity. I believe, though, that their decision was also based on what would help create jobs and vibrancy to a community.

Are for-profit corporations part of the Lord's or Christ's plan for his people? What is the 4-fold mission of the church? How does City Creek accomplish or fulfill any of them?

Here's a little food for thought... my in-laws returned from serving a 6-month mission in Wyoming back in October (Mormon Handcart Pioneer Mission) - they had to travel 180 miles (round trip) each Sunday just to attend church (at Martin's Cove) since there is no worship building where they were stationed (Sixth Crossing) - the church has $3+ BILLION for a stinking luxury mall but no funds for a place for missionaries to worship in the middle of Wyoming where they are serving and giving of their own time and money for the church and cause??? :ymsick:

[skmo]

If the man of the house withheld money from his family in order to fulfill personal business goals and obligated his family to cut back and make due with less, would you consider that charitable? Is it fine for our leaders to go and spend money in any way they see fit without regard to the well being of the church members? Malachi specifically tells us that tithes are for the poor. Bring them into the storehouse, we are told. The storehouse is a place to provide goods to the poor in my understanding.

If the man of the house was witholding food and health care to build a protfolio so he can buy a yacht in the future, then yes. If he is denying an iPod and iPhone with unlimited data plan because he's building retirement investment or college fund, then no. If the church leaders' (for profit) company is investing to build the area of the church to remain a healthy and vital industry, then I'd say it's serving a good purpose. Having crack dealers and hookers dealing their wares right outside temple grounds isn't what I'd like to see, like I do in downtown Denver, Sacramento, Baltimore, etc.

[singyourwayhome]

skmo: :ymapplause:

Flagg: So you're saying it's unfair for people to have different types trials or demands? Or unfair to have trials at all?

The stated purpose is to combat urban blight.

Yeah, I'm sure Christ and the Lord are concerned about 'urban blight' in downtown SLC. )

[/quote]

Urban decay (also known as urban rot and urban blight) is the process whereby a previously functioning city, or part of a city, falls into disrepair and decrepitude. It may feature deindustrialization, depopulation or changing population, economic restructuring, abandoned buildings, high local unemployment, fragmented families, political disenfranchisement, crime, and a desolate, inhospitable city landscape.

verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual D&C 29:34

I think he's saying what matters to him is individual's souls, what they become. And yes, "urban blight" has deep implications for that.

But the conversation keeps delving into how our leaders have gone astray here and how their decision is selfish. I think you misunderstand both The Lord's Way and the point of the Plan of Salvation, and as long as we keep discussing the surface issues, nobody gets enlightened, just more frustrated.

I've said what I can, and am done with this conversation.

[SmallFarm]

Whether or not to pay tithing is an issue within my stewardship.
Whether or not to build a mall in downtown SLC is an issue outside of my stewardship.
Whether or not the brethren (as individuals) are being led by the Lord is something I don't really know for sure,
but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and keep paying tithing, trusting in the Lord to steady
HIS church.

[skmo]

But it looks like we've found the core of the issue here:

I was opposed to giving handouts to beggars and things like that because of how I was taught. I am not the same person now as I was then. Now, the thought of pushing away poor people, for any reason, is heartbreaking to me.

So- this seems a more constructive path to go down- the principles at the heart of the matter. You were likely taught similar to how I was, and heard things like the quotes I gave earlier, so the "how I was taught" part might be covered already. What have you been taught since?

"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer." - Benjamin Franklin

I'm all for giving a hand up. However, very few people will take a hand up and begin to climb. As we see overwhelmingly in this country, they'll take the handOUT and demand it be increased tomorrow. Because of the kind nature of some people who can't stand to see the unfortunate realities of life* handouts become a way of life for people who know how to work without working.

*I'm honestly not referring to anyone in particular here, but I've seen enough people over my life who have good intentions and allow them to be used and abused. I find this more repulsive than not helping. Unfortunately, those who WON'T work cause problems for those who CAN'T work.

[natasha]

First of all, the mall was 1.5 billion...the other billions were for other "downtown rising" projects that were NOT invested in by the Church but were part of a whole expansion by the city. As for a building for your in-laws...there are many people who travel that far to-and-from Church in the mission fields throughout the world (and some in our country) depending on the population of the Church for a particular area. I trust the brethren completely in making these decisions.

[skmo]

Whether or not to pay tithing is an issue within my stewardship.
Whether or not to build a mall in downtown SLC is an issue outside of my stewardship.
Whether or not the brethren (as individuals) are being led by the Lord is something I don't really know for sure,
but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and keep paying tithing, trusting in the Lord to steady
HIS church.

Bravo, sir, bravo.

"...methinks I could not die any where so contented as in the king's company; his cause being just and his quarrel honourable..."

"...if his cause be wrong, our obedience to the king wipes the crime of it out of us..."

"...But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle..."

[Col. Flagg]

First of all, the mall was 1.5 billion...the other billions were for other "downtown rising" projects that were NOT invested in by the Church but were part of a whole expansion by the city.

Semantics.

As for a building for your in-laws...there are many people who travel that far to-and-from Church in the mission fields throughout the world (and some in our country) depending on the population of the Church for a particular area.

My in-laws served with 26 other couples and never in the history of Sixth Crossing's existence has the church constructed even a small building for them to have Sunday services in... those serving out at Martin's Cove have a small building... why not those serving 90 miles to the west??? But a multi-billion mall in downtown SLC to 'combat urban blight'? You bet. :ymapplause: It's a matter of priorities and it's becoming quite clear where the church's are these days. Sorry to beat a dead horse like this and for the criticism, but IMHO, it is justified and needs to be addressed because it's a problem when the needs of missionaries are being ignored while the church builds up Babylon with billions. Do you know what billions could have done for members in impoverished nations? Imagine those without potable water in a nation like Ethiopia getting a culinary water system or well or pumps installed for fresh drinking water... not only would something like that keep people alive and hydrated, it would also reduce disease and death. Oh, but I guess they need the trials and adversity of death and suffering to keep them all humble and reliant on the Lord. And how many homeless shelters could $3 BILLION have constructed around the U.S.? There are a multitude of examples of what the church could have done with billions instead of a luxury mall in downtown SLC that caters to the rich and Babylon or provides $8/hr. jobs for bored LDS teenagers. That's how I feel... sorry.

[jbalm]

Bravo, sir, bravo.

"...methinks I could not die any where so contented as in the king's company; his cause being just and his quarrel honourable..."

"...if his cause be wrong, our obedience to the king wipes the crime of it out of us..."

"...But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle..."

Whoa. Sounds like rationalizing blind servitude there. No thanks.

[Rose Garden]

If the man of the house withheld money from his family in order to fulfill personal business goals and obligated his family to cut back and make due with less, would you consider that charitable? Is it fine for our leaders to go and spend money in any way they see fit without regard to the well being of the church members? Malachi specifically tells us that tithes are for the poor. Bring them into the storehouse, we are told. The storehouse is a place to provide goods to the poor in my understanding.

If the man of the house was witholding food and health care to build a protfolio so he can buy a yacht in the future, then yes. If he is denying an iPod and iPhone with unlimited data plan because he's building retirement investment or college fund, then no. If the church leaders' (for profit) company is investing to build the area of the church to remain a healthy and vital industry, then I'd say it's serving a good purpose. Having crack dealers and hookers dealing their wares right outside temple grounds isn't what I'd like to see, like I do in downtown Denver, Sacramento, Baltimore, etc.

Why on earth would crack dealers and hookers seek out church headquarters?!

[jbalm]

If the man of the house withheld money from his family in order to fulfill personal business goals and obligated his family to cut back and make due with less, would you consider that charitable? Is it fine for our leaders to go and spend money in any way they see fit without regard to the well being of the church members? Malachi specifically tells us that tithes are for the poor. Bring them into the storehouse, we are told. The storehouse is a place to provide goods to the poor in my understanding.

If the man of the house was witholding food and health care to build a protfolio so he can buy a yacht in the future, then yes. If he is denying an iPod and iPhone with unlimited data plan because he's building retirement investment or college fund, then no. If the church leaders' (for profit) company is investing to build the area of the church to remain a healthy and vital industry, then I'd say it's serving a good purpose. Having crack dealers and hookers dealing their wares right outside temple grounds isn't what I'd like to see, like I do in downtown Denver, Sacramento, Baltimore, etc.

Why on earth would crack dealers and hookers seek out church headquarters?!

Apparently chauffeurs in SLC are good customers. Ask Col.

[skmo]

Why on earth would crack dealers and hookers seek out church headquarters?!

As a student (and teacher) of history, I'd have to say there are few more lucrative places to sell drugs and sex than among religious folks (as a general rule.)

[Col. Flagg]

Apparently chauffeurs in SLC are good customers. Ask Col.

There's more going on in downtown SLC than people realize or know... :-s and these are active members of the church we're talking about (and this is NOT speculation or opinion).

[skmo]

Whoa. Sounds like rationalizing blind servitude there. No thanks.

Blind? No, I've never been accused of being blind anything. Rationally reasoned and considered? Yes. I don't blindly give my allegiance to any one or thing, not even to God, let alone His servants. However, my personal experiences and revelations lead me to trust in my testimony of them, and I follow them indofar as my conscience allows me. That doesn't, in any way, stop me from questioning things.

[jbalm]

Apparently chauffeurs in SLC are good customers. Ask Col.

There's more going on in downtown SLC than people realize or know... :-s and these are active members of the church we're talking about (and this is NOT speculation or opinion).

Believe me. I know. As the only LDS attorney in a 50 mile radius, I have had the misfortune to learn about all sorts of unsavory things members of my stake do. I don't know how bishops handle their jobs.