Brian would never do that. Then again...shadow wrote:I think Brian is trying to ban us both by doing away with the format our fathers began with and forcing us to enter the new age forum style. Dang dictator. Give a man a little power and authority...
)
BOTH statements deserve =)) :ymapplause: just for their wording, regardless of the discussionbut to do so just because you're mad about something ... seems akin to a child getting mad and holding their breath until they pass out or pee themself.
I'm so glad to be away from Utah and all its silliness.
) How does that parable of the 10 virgins go again and what do the scriptures say about the last days for the church and those who would fall away? Something about 50% I believe.singyourwayhome wrote:Is it just me, or is the same argument at the root of this and the thread on Glenn Beck's planned community?
Is the best use of money to
donate it directly to someone, or
to use to to help others become educated and more able to be self-reliant?
And no tithing money WAS used for this. The Church has investments, has for decades, and uses proceeds from that for further business ventures.
Current vote tallies-
Yes, and I live in SLC
1
No, and I live in SLC
1
Yes, and I live in Utah
11
No, and I live in Utah
12
Yes, and I live outside Utah
6
No, and I live outside Utah
10
So of those in the city, it's a tie (I would have broken it, but didn't count South Jordan as SLC)
The further away you go --either the less you know about it or the less you notice its impact-- the more people dislike it.
I'm not saying that those who support or see nothing wrong with City Creek are the 50% ready to fall, only stating that the sifting process is beginning.You are correct in that. However, I believe that that parable's fulfillment has a lot more to do with how we react when times get really tough, persecution is heaped upon us again (mobs and govt out to destroy us), and when the Church leaders don't do what we think they should do (NO to gay marriage comes to mind). This is where you testimony will be stretched to it's limit and you better have reserves of oil.How does that parable of the 10 virgins go again and what do the scriptures say about the last days for the church and those who would fall away? Something about 50% I believe.
Pay attention AussieOi-AussieOi wrote:Who says they don't pay it anymore?
And paying tithing to anyone other than those authorized to accept it as such is not tithing. A fast offering or a donation to a charity of your choice is not tithing. Abraham didn't pay tithing to just anyone.A Random Phrase wrote:Yes, there are people who have stopped paying tithing from this -
Sorta does sound like you're saying that. The only thing is, the argument could be made for the ones OK with this to be the wise ones- especially if paying/not paying tithing is involved.Col. Flagg wrote: How does that parable of the 10 virgins go again and what do the scriptures say about the last days for the church and those who would fall away? Something about 50% I believe.
Truest statement ever - and it goes across ALL controversies (Obama? Romney vs Paul?)...just ask Korihor (Alma 30: esp. 52-53)...I agree that the sifting is taking place. I'll tell you what, both sides are going to THINK they're in the right.
Sure, just remember one way to know if the answer is really from the Lord is if it agrees with the majority of the Twelve and First Presidency. Another way to tell is if you're filled with love towards your fellow men.Called to Serve wrote:A few people might have inquired of the Lord and KNOW they are right.
I think they call that, "tough love." B-)BrentL wrote:like Elijah was filled with love to the 400 priests of Baal
can people be honest.singyourwayhome wrote:Is it just me, or is the same argument at the root of this and the thread on Glenn Beck's planned community?
Is the best use of money to
donate it directly to someone, or
to use to to help others become educated and more able to be self-reliant?
And no tithing money WAS used for this. The Church has investments, has for decades, and uses proceeds from that for further business ventures.
Current vote tallies-
Yes, and I live in SLC
1
No, and I live in SLC
1
Yes, and I live in Utah
11
No, and I live in Utah
12
Yes, and I live outside Utah
6
No, and I live outside Utah
10
So of those in the city, it's a tie (I would have broken it, but didn't count South Jordan as SLC)
The further away you go --either the less you know about it or the less you notice its impact-- the more people dislike it.
What if my love for fellow men tells me building the mall was a bad idea, but then the majority of the church leaders tell me it was a good idea? What then?singyourwayhome wrote:Sure, just remember one way to know if the answer is really from the Lord is if it agrees with the majority of the Twelve and First Presidency. Another way to tell is if you're filled with love towards your fellow men.Called to Serve wrote:A few people might have inquired of the Lord and KNOW they are right.
I'd be curious to know when you heard about this decision. This decision was made YEARS ago. Did you object when President Hinckley announced it in General Conference?Called to Serve wrote:What if my love for fellow men tells me building the mall was a bad idea, but then the majority of the church leaders tell me it was a good idea? What then?singyourwayhome wrote:Sure, just remember one way to know if the answer is really from the Lord is if it agrees with the majority of the Twelve and First Presidency. Another way to tell is if you're filled with love towards your fellow men.Called to Serve wrote:A few people might have inquired of the Lord and KNOW they are right.
The reason I am so unhappy about this decision is because I feel it does not show love for others. It doesn't show love for the homeless people who sought relief at the gates to temple square. It doesn't show love either for the millions of church members worldwide who are being told by church authorities that they need to cut back on spending because of hard times. I wasn't terribly unhappy about this mall until I was told by my husband about the cut back in church spending on the local level. I could hardly believe my ears because I had just been reading about this mall being built. Even if it was not built using tithing funds, the money would have been better spent in this time of trouble by helping those in need of help.
So if you ask me, if it's upheld by the majority of the twelve apostles and the first presidency, then their decision is in direct conflict with the most important commandments from the Lord: to love God and fellowman. If knowing I am receiving something from the Lord means agreeing with this majority, then I've got a major conflict!
The love for others I'm referring to is what you should feel after your decision. Are you tending to feel love towards all men now, or just towards one certain group? Or even most groups except one?Called to Serve wrote:What if my love for fellow men tells me building the mall was a bad idea, but then the majority of the church leaders tell me it was a good idea? What then?singyourwayhome wrote:Sure, just remember one way to know if the answer is really from the Lord is if it agrees with the majority of the Twelve and First Presidency. Another way to tell is if you're filled with love towards your fellow men.Called to Serve wrote:A few people might have inquired of the Lord and KNOW they are right.
The reason I am so unhappy about this decision is because I feel it does not show love for others. It doesn't show love for the homeless people who sought relief at the gates to temple square. It doesn't show love either for the millions of church members worldwide who are being told by church authorities that they need to cut back on spending because of hard times. I wasn't terribly unhappy about this mall until I was told by my husband about the cut back in church spending on the local level. I could hardly believe my ears because I had just been reading about this mall being built. Even if it was not built using tithing funds, the money would have been better spent in this time of trouble by helping those in need of help.
So if you ask me, if it's upheld by the majority of the twelve apostles and the first presidency, then their decision is in direct conflict with the most important commandments from the Lord: to love God and fellowman. If knowing I am receiving something from the Lord means agreeing with this majority, then I've got a major conflict!
also quoted by Heber J. Grant in 1936 and Marion G. Romney in 1975“Give [men] everything they ask for while making no demands on their own efforts, and they will deteriorate into an unfit mob.”
This is the lesson of all history. “My experience has taught me,” said President Brigham Young, “and it has become a principle with me, that it is never any benefit to give, out and out, to man or woman, money, food, clothing, or anything else, if they are able-bodied, and can work and earn what they need, … This is my principle and I try to act upon it. To pursue a contrary course would ruin any community in the world and make them idlers.” (Discourses of Brigham Young, 1925 edition, p. 422.)
Which decision are you referring to? Building the mall or cutting back? I found out about the mall years ago and had no objection or acceptance to it. I really didn't care then. But the Lord has taught me a lot since then. At the time, I was opposed to giving handouts to beggars and things like that because of how I was taught. I am not the same person now as I was then. Now, the thought of pushing away poor people, for any reason, is heartbreaking to me.ebenezerarise wrote:I'd be curious to know when you heard about this decision. This decision was made YEARS ago. Did you object when President Hinckley announced it in General Conference?Called to Serve wrote:What if my love for fellow men tells me building the mall was a bad idea, but then the majority of the church leaders tell me it was a good idea? What then?singyourwayhome wrote:Sure, just remember one way to know if the answer is really from the Lord is if it agrees with the majority of the Twelve and First Presidency. Another way to tell is if you're filled with love towards your fellow men.
The reason I am so unhappy about this decision is because I feel it does not show love for others. It doesn't show love for the homeless people who sought relief at the gates to temple square. It doesn't show love either for the millions of church members worldwide who are being told by church authorities that they need to cut back on spending because of hard times. I wasn't terribly unhappy about this mall until I was told by my husband about the cut back in church spending on the local level. I could hardly believe my ears because I had just been reading about this mall being built. Even if it was not built using tithing funds, the money would have been better spent in this time of trouble by helping those in need of help.
So if you ask me, if it's upheld by the majority of the twelve apostles and the first presidency, then their decision is in direct conflict with the most important commandments from the Lord: to love God and fellowman. If knowing I am receiving something from the Lord means agreeing with this majority, then I've got a major conflict!
And meanwhile, take a look at what the mayor had to say about downtown last night: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55680 ... r.html.csp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Doesn't sound like there are a lot of regrets here.
You're going to find two camps of people who claim to be most affected by the mall. Just saying.Called to Serve wrote:Which decision are you referring to? Building the mall or cutting back? I found out about the mall years ago and had no objection or acceptance to it. I really didn't care then. But the Lord has taught me a lot since then. At the time, I was opposed to giving handouts to beggars and things like that because of how I was taught. I am not the same person now as I was then. Now, the thought of pushing away poor people, for any reason, is heartbreaking to me.ebenezerarise wrote: I'd be curious to know when you heard about this decision. This decision was made YEARS ago. Did you object when President Hinckley announced it in General Conference?
And meanwhile, take a look at what the mayor had to say about downtown last night: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55680 ... r.html.csp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Doesn't sound like there are a lot of regrets here.
And as stated above, I would hardly expect the mayor to object to the mall. Put me on the ground among the people who have been most affected by it and let me find out what they have to say. As for me, because of the need to reduce spending worldwide (I was in Korea when I heard about that) I am unhappy with their decision to spend so much money on a business venture.
So- this seems a more constructive path to go down- the principles at the heart of the matter. You were likely taught similar to how I was, and heard things like the quotes I gave earlier, so the "how I was taught" part might be covered already. What have you been taught since?Called to Serve wrote:I was opposed to giving handouts to beggars and things like that because of how I was taught. I am not the same person now as I was then. Now, the thought of pushing away poor people, for any reason, is heartbreaking to me.
singyourwayhome wrote:The love for others I'm referring to is what you should feel after your decision. Are you tending to feel love towards all men now, or just towards one certain group? Or even most groups except one?
Instead, you're criticizing the church's basic philosophy of use of money. Again I ask, is the best use of money to give it directly to people- either through the wards or to the homeless- or is it to create ways to help people lift themselves through jobs and increased self-reliance? Which is more important, what becomes of us (what stuff we have), or of what we each become?
Is it impossible to show love and criticize at the same time? Are the actions of our church leaders emulating the Savior? He was always on the ground level, without bodyguards, teaching and serving the people, especially those who were social castouts. He commanded us not to let the beggar's petition to go unanswered if we had the means to fulfill it. Voicing my concerns about my leaders' actions is the best way I know to show love to them. Singing praises to them as they lead the church away from Christ's most fundamental commandments is hardly showing love.
It is not hurting my ward to have to cut back. It's teaching us to differentiate between the best choices and what would merely be nice, and to be more creative. Is it really hurting the homeless to have added several thousand jobs? Look at all the Church is doing to help the homeless- job counselling, training on how to interview for a job, training them IN jobs through D.I., creating work projects through Welfare Services, food, necessities, and work opportunities provided through the Bishops' Storehouses, assisting local food banks and charities, not to mention the core of the the Visiting Teaching and Home Teaching programs- individual watchcare and customized help. It sounds like you're worried about how to make a difference, which is good, but fixated on someone else's perceived lack of valid effort.
If the man of the house withheld money from his family in order to fulfill personal business goals and obligated his family to cut back and make due with less, would you consider that charitable? Is it fine for our leaders to go and spend money in any way they see fit without regard to the well being of the church members? Malachi specifically tells us that tithes are for the poor. Bring them into the storehouse, we are told. The storehouse is a place to provide goods to the poor in my understanding.
“Our primary purpose was to set up, in so far as it might be possible, a system under which the curse of idleness would be done away with, the evils of a dole abolished, and independence, industry, thrift and self respect be once more established amongst our people. The aim of the Church is to help the people to help themselves. Work is to be re-enthroned as the ruling principle of the lives of our Church membership."-Heber J. Grant, 1936 Message from the First Presidency
also quoted by Heber J. Grant in 1936 and Marion G. Romney in 1975“Give [men] everything they ask for while making no demands on their own efforts, and they will deteriorate into an unfit mob.”
This is the lesson of all history. “My experience has taught me,” said President Brigham Young, “and it has become a principle with me, that it is never any benefit to give, out and out, to man or woman, money, food, clothing, or anything else, if they are able-bodied, and can work and earn what they need, … This is my principle and I try to act upon it. To pursue a contrary course would ruin any community in the world and make them idlers.” (Discourses of Brigham Young, 1925 edition, p. 422.)
See Church Welfare- Some Fundamentals
The idea that we need to dictate to others what they should receive from is erroneous. Each person is entitled to revelation for themselves. They know what they personally need to survive. Is it kind and charitable to make the widowed (or divorced in our society) mother of many small children work for her keep? Doing so obligates her to leave her children in the care of others. When we dictate what we will or won't do for others, we are judging them and judging their needs. What is better is to give them what they ask for as the Lord has commanded us to do. Love has much more power to inspire a person to work for their keep than frowning down upon them and chiding them for laziness and obligating them to perform certain tasks before doling out what we consider best for them.
This is what I have been taught, through the Spirit and through the experiences the Lord has allowed me to pass through:singyourwayhome wrote:You're going to find two camps of people who claim to be most affected by the mall. Just saying.Called to Serve wrote:Which decision are you referring to? Building the mall or cutting back? I found out about the mall years ago and had no objection or acceptance to it. I really didn't care then. But the Lord has taught me a lot since then. At the time, I was opposed to giving handouts to beggars and things like that because of how I was taught. I am not the same person now as I was then. Now, the thought of pushing away poor people, for any reason, is heartbreaking to me.ebenezerarise wrote: I'd be curious to know when you heard about this decision. This decision was made YEARS ago. Did you object when President Hinckley announced it in General Conference?
And meanwhile, take a look at what the mayor had to say about downtown last night: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55680 ... r.html.csp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Doesn't sound like there are a lot of regrets here.
And as stated above, I would hardly expect the mayor to object to the mall. Put me on the ground among the people who have been most affected by it and let me find out what they have to say. As for me, because of the need to reduce spending worldwide (I was in Korea when I heard about that) I am unhappy with their decision to spend so much money on a business venture.
And you do realize that the money they spent is from a business, for-profit entity, right?
But it looks like we've found the core of the issue here:So- this seems a more constructive path to go down- the principles at the heart of the matter. You were likely taught similar to how I was, and heard things like the quotes I gave earlier, so the "how I was taught" part might be covered already. What have you been taught since?Called to Serve wrote:I was opposed to giving handouts to beggars and things like that because of how I was taught. I am not the same person now as I was then. Now, the thought of pushing away poor people, for any reason, is heartbreaking to me.
We are told nothing in this key sermon on giving to others about making sure that they have fulfilled their personal obligations to provide for themselves. Instead, we are warned against doing so. We are not to withhold our substance from another because we believe they have not done their part but to give them what they ask for if we have the power to do so. This is the Lord's standard.16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.
17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—
And here we are told why:18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.
To withhold our substance from another is to consider that "every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength" (Alma 30:17 Korihor's teachings) and to deny that our blessings ultimately came from God, including the power and wisdom to obtain those blessings.19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?
