LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 12:47 pm**

ajax wrote:Coach, I'm not sure anyone here has suggested not to pay tithes.

My apology then. I briefly read SmallFarm's exchange with Col Flagg and assumed the worst. my post wasn't directed at anyone, specifically. I just see this going the way of that old thread again and made an assumption. I should pay closer attention before jumping the gun. I'm sorry.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 12:50 pm**

coachmarc wrote:
ajax wrote:Coach, I'm not sure anyone here has suggested not to pay tithes.
My apology then. I briefly read SmallFarm's exchange with Col Flagg and assumed the worst. my post wasn't directed at anyone, specifically. I just see this going the way of that old thread again and made an assumption. I should pay closer attention before jumping the gun. I'm sorry.

ajax is right - I've never suggested it nor has anyone else that I am aware of - all that has been said is that some people have stopped paying their tithing over City Creek, nothing more.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 12:53 pm**

Yeah, I need sleep. I work graveyard and haven't been to bed yet since I got off this morning. Sorry about that.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 12:53 pm**

coachmarc wrote:
ajax wrote:Coach, I'm not sure anyone here has suggested not to pay tithes.
My apology then. I briefly read SmallFarm's exchange with Col Flagg and assumed the worst. my post wasn't directed at anyone, specifically. I just see this going the way of that old thread again and made an assumption. I should pay closer attention before jumping the gun. I'm sorry.

I assumed that Col. Flagg had stopped paying tithing.

Col. Flagg wrote:If it were only a minor issue, but it's perhaps one of the biggest issues plaguing the church right now and tell those who have stopped paying tithing because of it to 'get over it'.

But it appears I had been chasing a straw-man.

Col. Flagg wrote:
SmallFarm wrote:Col. Flagg,
I am concerned that you use the evil of others to justify sin.

SmallFarm... please do not be concerned because that is not the case at all. :ymblushing:

Why not give your ten-percent to the church and another ten-percent to needy families around you?

20%? If I did that, we would have to go without paying some of our bills... that's not an option. I've just decided to pay our 10% in tithing and if the brethren are using tithing funds for the wrong purposes or against the will of the Lord, it's on their heads, not mine. I just want to have a clean slate and conscience in the Lord's eyes, although, I certainly felt right and justified in donating our 10% this past year mostly to the fast offering fund and humanitarian aid and when our Bishop asked why I had done this during tithing settlement, I let the cat out of the bag and he expressed his understanding and even praised me for standing for what I thought was right. But he did emphasize that tithing is not a fast offering or humanitarian aid and so to be considered a full tithe payer and eligible for temple attendance, I needed to mark the tithing section. Realistically though, it almost doesn't really matter what section you mark on the donation slip because the little disclaimer at the bottom says that the church will make all accommodations to use the funds as designated, but that it reserves the right to use the money for whatever purposes it deems necessary.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 1:56 pm**

ajax wrote:
ebenezerarise wrote:Members are told to go without food? Never seen that in my life.
From December 2012 Ensign:
Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing.

Did you read the STORY? That's not the Church telling us to go without food. Sheesh. Talk to any Bishop. They will tell you to pay your tithing. If you need help with food, that's what they DO.

Good grief.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 2:07 pm**

AussieOi wrote:an empty park would have been nicer
imagine if they spent the money on making people better, you know, rooms for classes, education centres for young mothers, workshops for fathers to be better parents
but we got tiffanies
was that the very best our imagination could come up with the fulfil the ministry of christ?
could you imagine the things we could be funding right now? the whole world could have come to SLC to see the education, training, services, hope offered by this church they hadnt heard of
why did we even need a return on investment?
i can't communicate with you because you and those who defend it are blockheads who are myopic in thinking this is from the GAs so it is from god, therefore if i say its a wate of money i am a threat to your belief system

Clearly you don't live here. An empty park would have been an epic disaster, a magnet for crime, drugs and prostitution.

As for the "education centers"...hello? Have you ever been to Temple Square?

The Church has all you describe and more. Just because they want to be a good neighbor, support the city of Salt Lake (as they always have), and represent the Church well to the world you condemn it.

You can't communicate with me because I disagree with you. I live here, I've been here, I'm informed of the history and I've witnessed it all transpired.

Do I shop there? No. Do I live in those new condos and apartments? No.

Do I visit there? Yes, often as I attend events associated with the Church at Temple Square. I feel safe. I feel I have the resources I need. I feel connected in that there are multiple ways to get around and to get home. There is room to park now and the Church can host multiple high attendance events and the place isn't inefficient or unbearable to go to.

You? Well, I don't know the first thing about you other than you obviously can't see what is obvious in a part of the world you likely never have been to nor plan on going. You judge based upon edited videos and the agenda-driven views of others and condemn when eye-witnesses step forward to correct the record.

Too many people box the Church into being about just 15 million people. It has never been about those who are members of the Church now or even about those in the past. It is about all of God's children. The Church employs a worldwide strategy on everything it does, inclusive of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, Temple Square...and even City Creek. This was not done without wise reason relative to the mission of the Church.

If you want to steady the ark by being critical of every nickle and dime that you in your uninformed state dictates should and shouldn't be spent as you see fit, well, I guess you have your reward.

I hope you enjoy it.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 2:11 pm**

AussieOi wrote:
Seek the Truth wrote:Err, you can pay a full tithe and then apply for church assistance, known plenty who did that in my time. Nobody went hungry.

Ebenezer is still right as rain.
no he's not

he's an idiot

I'm an idiot. He's a different type of idiot. I'm arrogant, he's self righteous

Gee, thanks.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 2:27 pm**

Col. Flagg wrote: So friggin' what... how does a prophet of God attending a basketball game equate with the church he is president of constructing a multi-billion dollar mall??? :-\

There is nothing evil/wrong in saying "Let's go shopping!". Nothing.

You're not getting it at all ebenezer... this debate has nothing to do with 'was it a wise investment' or 'how has it affected the community' or being 'transparent' with finances or anything of the sort... it has to do with 'should a church be constructing multi-billion dollar malls with sacred funds'? If you're OK with it, then maybe you should start worshipping a different God than I.

Just what ARE sacred funds? This project was financed with Church earnings separate from tithing. In other words, profits. Are THOSE sacred funds to you?

Is there video or audio of Joseph, Brigham or Lorenzo uttering those phrases? Were they thinking 'let's show off our wealth as a church to the world'? What was their motivation for the business ventures they were interested in? Helping out members of the church or impressing Babylon? Were billions of dollars/sacred funds involved?

Oh yeah, there's video of Joseph, Brigham and Lorenzo... 8-| ... sheesh, no, not video but written historical record of them supporting temporal causes. The Church has always been involved in temporal upbuilding in the efforts to build the Kingdom. They go hand in hand.

Again with the "billions of dollars/sacred funds" thing? What sacred monies were used? What do you know about the money used for this project that nobody else here seems to know?

All I know is if I were ever prophet of our church, I would never approve or be involved with something like City Creek, let alone showing up for the ribbon cutting ceremony and chanting '1-2-3, let's go shopping'. :ymsick:

As I asked another poster, who do you think you ARE? You're not the prophet. Why don't you worry about your own stewardship instead of his? Haven't you got enough to do? The Lord doesn't work through you for the Church, he works through Thomas S. Monson. So who are you to be critical. To be critical of the Prophet is to be critical of the Lord. Why can't you learn the lessons of Thomas Marsh or Oliver Cowdery?

This puts you in deep waters indeed.

I'm more concerned about this than visiting 'downtownrising.com' :ymsick: :[/quote]

In other words, you're more concerned with your view of things. Rather than seeking to understand you seek instead to get the Church to see things your way.

The world has to be a pretty hard place for you, my friend.

If we all were to judge the world and the people around us -- much less the Church -- in the way that you're handling your judgment on this issue it would be a pretty rough existence.

I think it is ok to question. I think it is quite another to condemn. To me, you and others crossed that line long ago.

I can recall really suffering in the 70s over the issue of blacks and the priesthood. I just couldn't put my arms around it. And I was fearful of serving a mission because I couldn't speak to the Church's position.

Well, as it turned out, I didn't have that problem.

Time and circumstance and maybe luck changed that for me. But the lesson to me was pretty clear. The Lord has a way of making these kinds of things right in his time and in his way. I would hope that someday you can see that the way you're judging/condemning the Church and the Prophet on this one is unhealthy and unwise. I hope the Lord can find a way through to you on it to settle your soul.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 2:29 pm**

AussieOi wrote: no he's not

he's an idiot

I'm an idiot. He's a different type of idiot. I'm arrogant, he's self righteous

He's not an idiot. He's bright and well spoken.

You're not an idiot. Unhinged, but bright and able to turn a phrase. But in need of seriously therapy.

:ymhug:

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 2:33 pm**

Aussie, I like your ideas actually. Check this out! I think this is really awesome. And the feeling and intent behind it. http://www.takepart.com/article/2012/02 ... ood-forest" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seattle’s vision of an urban food oasis is going forward. A seven-acre plot of land in the city’s Beacon Hill neighborhood will be planted with hundreds of different kinds of edibles: walnut and chestnut trees; blueberry and raspberry bushes; fruit trees, including apples and pears; exotics like pineapple, yuzu citrus, guava, persimmons, honeyberries, and lingonberries; herbs; and more. All will be available for public plucking to anyone who wanders into the city’s first food forest.

“This is totally innovative, and has never been done before in a public park,” Margarett Harrison, lead landscape architect for the Beacon Food Forest project, tells TakePart. Harrison is working on construction and permit drawings now and expects to break ground this summer.

So just who gets to harvest all that low-hanging fruit when the time comes?

“Anyone and everyone,” says Harrison. “There was major discussion about it. People worried, ‘What if someone comes and takes all the blueberries?’ That could very well happen, but maybe someone needed those blueberries. We look at it this way—if we have none at the end of blueberry season, then it means we’re successful.”

Personally, I think if the church would have invested funds to do something like this it would be something more people could get behind. And it would TRULY beautify the area indeed.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 2:38 pm**

Col. Flagg wrote:
You're not getting it at all ebenezer... this debate has nothing to do with 'was it a wise investment' or 'how has it affected the community' or being 'transparent' with finances or anything of the sort... it has to do with 'should a church be constructing multi-billion dollar malls with sacred funds'?

Yes.

If you're OK with it, then maybe you should start worshipping a different God than I.

Why? Jesus was into Hotel development in D%C 124. Hotels, Malls, Banks, it's all good dude. Income producing property, the multiplication of talents.

Is there video or audio of Joseph, Brigham or Lorenzo uttering those phrases? Were they thinking 'let's show off our wealth as a church to the world'? What was their motivation for the business ventures they were interested in? Helping out members of the church or impressing Babylon? Were billions of dollars/sacred funds involved?

What's with your fixation on the number? Obviously the church was smaller in the past, so we couldn't invest a billion banks or hotels, it just wasn't an option. As the church gets bigger we have more talents to multiply.

All I know is if I were ever prophet of our church, I would never approve or be involved with something like City Creek, let alone showing up for the ribbon cutting ceremony and chanting '1-2-3, let's go shopping'. :ymsick:

Probably why you're not a prophet.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 2:48 pm**

ebenezerarise wrote:
ajax wrote:
ebenezerarise wrote:Members are told to go without food? Never seen that in my life.
From December 2012 Ensign:
Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing.
Did you read the STORY? That's not the Church telling us to go without food. Sheesh. Talk to any Bishop. They will tell you to pay your tithing. If you need help with food, that's what they DO.

Good grief.

Yes I did read the story, and yes members are told to pay tithing first, feed your children second. And the church entombs this thinking in stone by publishing it in its monthly periodical, which many consider scripture btw.

ebenezerarise wrote: Just what ARE sacred funds? This project was financed with Church earnings separate from tithing. In other words, profits. Are THOSE sacred funds to you?

And this is the point: If these are "non-sacred" funds, derived from profit, reinvested to earn more profits, why would you or anybody else care who questions the project? This is normal business activity which is subject to normal scrutiny. By gosh man, our church invested in a mall. People don't like it. I get it.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 2:48 pm**

ebenezerarise wrote:
Col. Flagg wrote: So friggin' what... how does a prophet of God attending a basketball game equate with the church he is president of constructing a multi-billion dollar mall??? :-\
There is nothing evil/wrong in saying "Let's go shopping!". Nothing.

You're not getting it at all ebenezer... this debate has nothing to do with 'was it a wise investment' or 'how has it affected the community' or being 'transparent' with finances or anything of the sort... it has to do with 'should a church be constructing multi-billion dollar malls with sacred funds'? If you're OK with it, then maybe you should start worshipping a different God than I.
Just what ARE sacred funds? This project was financed with Church earnings separate from tithing. In other words, profits. Are THOSE sacred funds to you?

Is there video or audio of Joseph, Brigham or Lorenzo uttering those phrases? Were they thinking 'let's show off our wealth as a church to the world'? What was their motivation for the business ventures they were interested in? Helping out members of the church or impressing Babylon? Were billions of dollars/sacred funds involved?

Oh yeah, there's video of Joseph, Brigham and Lorenzo... 8-| ... sheesh, no, not video but written historical record of them supporting temporal causes. The Church has always been involved in temporal upbuilding in the efforts to build the Kingdom. They go hand in hand.

Again with the "billions of dollars/sacred funds" thing? What sacred monies were used? What do you know about the money used for this project that nobody else here seems to know?

All I know is if I were ever prophet of our church, I would never approve or be involved with something like City Creek, let alone showing up for the ribbon cutting ceremony and chanting '1-2-3, let's go shopping'. :ymsick:

As I asked another poster, who do you think you ARE? You're not the prophet. Why don't you worry about your own stewardship instead of his? Haven't you got enough to do? The Lord doesn't work through you for the Church, he works through Thomas S. Monson. So who are you to be critical. To be critical of the Prophet is to be critical of the Lord. Why can't you learn the lessons of Thomas Marsh or Oliver Cowdery?

This puts you in deep waters indeed.

I'm more concerned about this than visiting 'downtownrising.com' :ymsick: :

In other words, you're more concerned with your view of things. Rather than seeking to understand you seek instead to get the Church to see things your way.

The world has to be a pretty hard place for you, my friend.

If we all were to judge the world and the people around us -- much less the Church -- in the way that you're handling your judgment on this issue it would be a pretty rough existence.

I think it is ok to question. I think it is quite another to condemn. To me, you and others crossed that line long ago.

I can recall really suffering in the 70s over the issue of blacks and the priesthood. I just couldn't put my arms around it. And I was fearful of serving a mission because I couldn't speak to the Church's position.

Well, as it turned out, I didn't have that problem.

Time and circumstance and maybe luck changed that for me. But the lesson to me was pretty clear. The Lord has a way of making these kinds of things right in his time and in his way. I would hope that someday you can see that the way you're judging/condemning the Church and the Prophet on this one is unhealthy and unwise. I hope the Lord can find a way through to you on it to settle your soul.[/quote]

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 2:55 pm**

AshleyB wrote: Personally, I think if the church would have invested funds to do something like this it would be something more people could get behind. And it would TRULY beautify the area indeed.

The opportunity cost would be enormous, and probably the most expensive way to feed the poor ever devised. I'm not into feel good measures myself.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 3:06 pm**

It's not just about feeding the poor Seek. There is so much more to it than that. It's also about service and community outreach and unity. It's about bringing people together on equal ground. It will help inspire people to love and learn how to garden. But it would certainly do more to feed the poor and beautify downtown Salt Lake than a mall does and I expect it would actually be LESS expensive. You can call pure intents of the heart "feel good measures" if you want but I think that's a good way of mocking something pure and lovely. But no, you're right. It's better to just say we don't want any of that from the heart, feel good stuff in Salt Lake. It's better to celebrate the class hierarchy.To each his own...

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 3:12 pm**

AshleyB wrote: Personally, I think if the church would have invested funds to do something like this it would be something more people could get behind. And it would TRULY beautify the area indeed.

Or "invested" back in the church...more temples, improvement of welfare infrastructure(especially outside the US), 3rd world projects spearheaded by local membership etc., rather than put it all down on curing "urban blight" in SLC.

Just what has the city council been up to?

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 3:15 pm**

Thank you Ashley for this:

But I will also say that more importantly I believe we as a nation are not focused ENOUGH on what the mind and will of the Lord really is and that we should all be more focused on the poor and needy than we are. Our nation is now in trillions of dollars of debt.

So what is the problem? Reagan's 1980's policies benefiting corporate raiders and conspicuous consumption? GOP for slashing funding for mental health programs and other forms of welfare? JBS and Ezra Taft Benson for stressing individual responsibility? Heber J. Grant for raising warnings about FDR's welfare state? George W Bush telling Americans after 9/11 to just keep shopping to defeat the terrorists' ambitions? (they hate America and our prosperity).

I grew up as Republican, conservative (Cleon Skousen's influence), and LDS - and cannot stand the Democratic Party and stated goals in any way...but if you want to honestly examine the causes of greed, selfishness, neglect of the poor, etc., then maybe we also need to examine the messages and effects of GOP, conservative, and LDS messages and viewpoints as well...

Just a thought.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 3:18 pm**

I'm all for feeding the poor, but the reality is that I wouldn't allocate high priced real estate for gardens, it's a tremendous opportunity cost. We have of course who knows how many acres in the storehouse system dedicated to such food production, it seems to work very well and efficiently. I would advocate following that model instead of the high priced downtown model. I don't think anyone, even the church, could risk something like that in this economy. Every dollar needs to get expended wisely. I think a billion dollars to produce thousands of dollars in food doesn't make sense.

I've been a professional investor for 20 years in the most complicated of financial instruments (derivatives) and the reality is that we need to be clear headed about how capital is allocated.

There is this idea that this money is "spent" on a mall, but the way that word is used so far has been misleading. The money has been invested, converted from cash into an income producing asset, much like the parable of talents and should return talents over and over into the future as the Church faces hard times. It may sustain us when we need it.

Ashely, in the investment/business world it is very hard to turn a profit these days and it looks like this development has a great chance for success, and so I celebrate it and recoil in horror at some of the grossly inefficient alternatives that have been suggested. The more I learn of it the more inspired it seems, and I don't even think the business side of things needs to be inspired.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 3:19 pm**

ajax wrote:
AshleyB wrote: Personally, I think if the church would have invested funds to do something like this it would be something more people could get behind. And it would TRULY beautify the area indeed.
Or "invested" back in the church...more temples, improvement of welfare infrastructure(especially outside the US), 3rd world projects spearheaded by local membership etc., rather than put it all down on curing "urban blight" in SLC.

Just what has the city council been up to?

Yeah, there are so many great things billions of dollars could do to help the Salt Lake Community and other parts of the world too. I just thought if the goal was to "BEAUTIFY" Salt Lake like so many are saying there are better ways to go about doing it than building a Luxary Mall. I also honestly don't intend to judge anyone for this Mall. In my opinion, I just think there are many other ways to help build Salt Lake than that. Of course, if profit is a person's main priority than building some pretty garden with lots of food that brings people together would seem foolish. Sorry, this reply is actually mainly to seek.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 3:20 pm**

WHAT IF There is a divine purpose in building the City Creek Mall, that has nothing to do with investments or urban blight?
WHAT IF There is a purpose for the building that has nothing to do with fancy clothes and apparel?
WHAT IF by fighting against the work that the brethren are doing we frustrate the plans of the Lord?
WHAT IF God had designed a safety net for a situation only discernible by Him?
The crux of what I am saying:
WHAT IF God knows more than we do?

Oh wait... #-o

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 3:23 pm**

ajax wrote:Yes I did read the story, and yes members are told to pay tithing first, feed your children second. And the church entombs this thinking in stone by publishing it in its monthly periodical, which many consider scripture btw.

Parents that would do such a thing are at risk of having CPS remove their kids from the home. I've seen kids removed for less egregious neglect.

Several state-funded psychological exams later, those same parents could be in danger of losing their parental rights, permanently.

Yes, the story in the Ensign is meant to be faith promoting. But anyone who has been part of the LDS church for any length of time knows that articles like this can take on a life of their own. The story will be repeated and paraphrased, in various contexts, in chapels and classrooms and bishops' offices all over the world. Sometimes harmfully.

The editors of the Ensign might want to think about clearing this up in an upcoming issue.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 3:25 pm**

And yet no one who contacts their bishop will go hungry.

Jesus praised the widow.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 3:27 pm**

I appreciate your thoughts smallfarm. But I don't quite see how disagreeing with City Creek and stating that opinion is "fighting against the work of the brethren and the Lords plans. " I also agree with what others have said. I don't believe the business aspect of the corporation has anything to do with divine purposes. If it did then profit would not be the main goal. I don't recall the Lord ever teaching the prophets in the scriptures how to turn a great profit. In fact, he generally tried to steer their attention from temporal gain to spiritual gain. He wanted the apostles to be fishers of men's souls first and before anything else. That kind of investment cannot be measured by something as meaningless as dollars.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 3:28 pm**

SmallFarm wrote:WHAT IF There is a divine purpose in building the City Creek Mall, that has nothing to do with investments or urban blight?
WHAT IF There is a purpose for the building that has nothing to do with fancy clothes and apparel?
WHAT IF by fighting against the work that the brethren are doing we frustrate the plans of the Lord?
WHAT IF God had designed a safety net for a situation only discernible by Him?
The crux of what I am saying:
WHAT IF God knows more than we do?
Oh wait... #-o

WHAT IF there was a reason there were dozens of scripture references put into the Bible and Book of Mormon that condemn pride, vanity, vain ambition, fine sanctuaries that rob the poor, looking for favor with man instead of with God, worshipping false idols and yearning to appeal to the world via image? City Creek encompasses all of that.

Posted: **January 25th, 2013, 3:28 pm**

Seek the Truth wrote:And yet no one who contacts their bishop will go hungry.

Jesus praised the widow.

yep - the one Elijah asked to feed him before making last meal for her and her son before they died of hunger.....wonder how she felt about that?...I wonder how us here would react if we were witnessing their conversation?

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