LDS Freedom Forum

AussieOi wrote:Haha
this is actually a funny post
on the surface, its actually okay
then you remember, oh snap, we're not a fortune 500 company- we're church
better than that, we hold ourselves out to be a CHRISTIAN church
Even better, we hold ourselves out to fulfilling the mission of our saviour on earth
$1.5b over 30 years ($only $400m cash I might add)
$3b on a shopping centre.
Members who are told to go without food, rent, medical, fillings, all that stuff, after they come home from cleaning the chapel, wondering how they are going to make it to the nexst pay day, losing faith asking themselves "why hasn't any of our prophets seers and revelators actually delivered a revelation or prophecy since joseph smith" log on and see the Utah church NOT spending their tithing, and see their #1 prophet worship a red ribbon.

you went to the press conferences. were you an employee or a media person

is it possible that in either instance you were working for a business, and your view is a little myopic or defensive in this?

Found this comment on the youtube video posted earlier on this thread http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmkZ2Zy9Gok" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


'The greatest work we will ever do will be within the walls of our home' - David O Mckay

'Beware of Pride' - Ezra Taft Benson

'Let us be a temple-attending people' - Howard W Hunter

'Do it' - Spencer W. Kimball

'Life is to be enjoyed, not endured' - Gordon B. Hinckley

'1 2 3 Lets Go Shopping!!' - Thomas S Monson

ebenezerarise wrote:Members are told to go without food? Never seen that in my life.

Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing.

Squally wrote:

Found this comment on the youtube video posted earlier on this thread http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmkZ2Zy9Gok" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


'The greatest work we will ever do will be within the walls of our home' - David O Mckay

'Beware of Pride' - Ezra Taft Benson

'Let us be a temple-attending people' - Howard W Hunter

'Do it' - Spencer W. Kimball

'Life is to be enjoyed, not endured' - Gordon B. Hinckley

'1 2 3 Lets Go Shopping!!' - Thomas S Monson

hyloglyph wrote:

Nephi294 wrote:Found this to be interesting:

In a solemn assembly at April 1970 general conference, at which President Joseph Fielding Smith was sustained as president of the Church, President Harold B. Lee, his counselor, conducted the voting. On that occasion, President Lee taught: "Every one is perfectly free to vote as he wishes. There is no compulsion whatsoever in this voting. When you vote affirmatively you make a solemn covenant with the Lord that you will sustain, that is, give your full loyalty and support, without equivocation or reservation, to the officer for whom you vote" (Conference Report, p. 103). :ymparty:

Hmmmm....anyone else waiting for a scriptural reference on this?

Col. Flagg wrote:When I sustain someone, whether in my own ward or anyone called to be a GA, I do so based on the fact that I don't know that they've done anything wrong or are unworthy to hold the office to which they are being called and sustain them with faith that they will act in harmony with the will of the Lord. Sustaining someone DOES NOT mean I swear an oath to never disagree with, question or criticize words, actions or decisions, especially when those actions, words or decisions do not square with what I know about gospel principles, our Savior and the Almighty.

hyloglyph wrote: Indeed!
It also seems uncharitable for the leaders to have us sustain them, and thereby contract us into a solemn covenant with the Lord that we don't know about. I reject this notion.

hyloglyph wrote:Haha you seem like a real nice guy Smallfarm.

jbalm wrote:But I've never been opposed to one of them. I just don't want to be obligated to ignore the dictates of my own conscience just because I raised my hand to sustain someone I know next to nothing about.

I would sustain all of the brethren today. Even those with whom I occasionally disagree.

But, if sustaining them actually means that I vow unflinching, unquestioning, blind loyalty, forevermore, no matter what comes to pass, then I would need to abstain.

ebenezerarise wrote:
I've never heard of this church you speak of. Members are told to go without food? Never seen that in my life.

Ensign December 2012 Sacred Transformations
http://www.lds.org.au/ensign/2012/12/sa ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
After reading these scriptures together, Bishop Orellana looked at the new convert and said, “If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing. The Lord will not abandon you.”
The next Sunday, Amado approached Bishop Orellana again. This time he didn’t ask any questions. He simply handed his bishop an envelope and said, “Bishop, here
is our tithing.”


And losing faith because of a lack of revelation? Where do you get this stuff?

you are probably quite insular

I went to press conferences because I was representative of a company with a significant investment downtown. We had a decision to make relative to the future of the company in downtown.

yeah, you must hate this development then

I am not a Church employee and never have been. I've just been a front row eyewitness to this thing for years.

For a group that looks for conspiracy under every rock

ETB heard that from better
So did Ether


it amazes me the lack of research and rock turning done on this issue. There is just a blanket condemnation against the Church and its leadership that spent money that was never yours in the first place on a project that apparently some of you lack the vision of seeing.

what vision? tell me you're kidding?


There are those here who won't look at the facts because they are hellbent on just declaring the Church devoid of fulfilling its duty to the poor and they use this and the President of the Church saying "Let's go shopping" as if it is some vile curse word.

was he acting as a prophet or businessman? please answer that




I guess I've been hardheaded enough to think you can be reasoned with. But it appears I'm done because you view it the way you view it, regardless of the facts. I think that even if the Church had invested even $1 in this or any other temporal project would result in anything less than criticism by some people here who declare the Church their's to run.


an empty park would have been nicer
imagine if they spent the money on making people better, you know, rooms for classes, education centres for young mothers, workshops for fathers to be better parents
but we got tiffanies
was that the very best our imagination could come up with the fulfil the ministry of christ?
could you imagine the things we could be funding right now? the whole world could have come to SLC to see the education, training, services, hope offered by this church they hadnt heard of
why did we even need a return on investment?
i can't communicate with you because you and those who defend it are blockheads who are myopic in thinking this is from the GAs so it is from god, therefore if i say its a wate of money i am a threat to your belief system




You know, I work presently as the Ward Employment Specialist and I frequently go down to the local LDS employment office and make use of the resources there for the people I serve. The Church has invested there thousands of hours and whatever resources are necessary to give help to ANYONE who needs career services.


and imagine that TIMES BY 100!
Imagine language training, education services, free lectures like on TED
imagine bringin in the greatest minds in teh world and putting on workshops
imagine a convention centre so good and given away to worthy conferences for free! imagine how many people would flock from around the world to this city built for people.
imagine that
instead you do your calling faithfully, recreating the same wheel beign done in 10000 wards worldwide, yo uget up in Priesthood Opening exercises and say "if anyone knows of anyone with a job opening please let me know. if you are looking for work i've got a few fruit picking things ive heard of, come and fill out my bad photocopied forms and blah blah. " you are inefficient bro. totally


I see my good Bishop, who works tirelessly attending to the needs of those in our ward, giving even to those folks who are not even members. I see dozens of people from my ward go when called to serve at the cannery, at the Bishop's storehouse or on Welfare Square where the Church has invested untold dollars in equipment and production of high quality foods and supplies that they freely give away. Many of these things have been in place for decades.

brother, lets face it. the church takes about $5b per year in tithing. it has aroubd $80-$100b in assets.
its given $500m to charity in the last 35 years
dont count labour of members as a use of tithing
we donate less than wal mart does. $3.50 per person per annum is what we've given to actual charity


I've never seen a dime's accounting for any of these things. Not even an accounting for the value of what's given. But what folks here seem to dwell on is the cash, that which has to be "reported" somewhere as if the arm of the flesh is some kind of validation for both the Lord's direction and the Church's efforts.

My only question is..who do you think you ARE???

read my post in exodus from the church and GASMith prophecy to find out
im a failed christian trying to find the saviour
i am an arrogant fool, i say things like :when you step away from blind obedience to men and cultures, you will find christ"



I hope you don't just sit there and raise your hand to sustain these men who declare on video "Let's go shopping". I hope you are honest enough to speak up, talk to your local leaders and throw these criticisms at them face-to-face, rather than hiding behind the anonymity of an Internet venue to air your bitter recriminations.

SmallFarm wrote:

hyloglyph wrote:Haha you seem like a real nice guy Smallfarm. How all these different things are made to be tests of faith to you is cracking me up.

Please cast away your pride, brother.

ajax wrote:

ebenezerarise wrote:Members are told to go without food? Never seen that in my life.

From December 2012 Ensign:

Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing.

Seek the Truth wrote:Err, you can pay a full tithe and then apply for church assistance, known plenty who did that in my time.

Seek the Truth wrote:Err, you can pay a full tithe and then apply for church assistance, known plenty who did that in my time. Nobody went hungry.

Ebenezer is still right as rain.

ajax wrote:

Seek the Truth wrote:Err, you can pay a full tithe and then apply for church assistance, known plenty who did that in my time.

Sounds like we still don't understand tithes and the proper payment thereof. Oops, wrong thread. Nevermind.

ebenezerarise wrote:So friggin' what? He also goes to Jazz games.

So friggin' what... how does a prophet of God attending a basketball game equate with the church he is president of constructing a multi-billion dollar mall??? :-\

Your take on this is entirely distorted. Do some research. City Creek is much more than a mall and the Church's involvement here has been plenty transparent. I attended every press conference managed by the Presiding Bishopric's office during the course of the past decade in regards to this project. There were plenty of City council debates/discussions about how the project would unfold and how it would affect the community. The Church HAD to be transparent about the whole project just because they knew there would be critics out there like you who sit at a distance and cast judgment without being informed.

You're not getting it at all ebenezer... this debate has nothing to do with 'was it a wise investment' or 'how has it affected the community' or being 'transparent' with finances or anything of the sort... it has to do with 'should a church be constructing multi-billion dollar malls with sacred funds'? If you're OK with it, then maybe you should start worshipping a different God than I.

To condemn the President of the High Priesthood for saying "Let's go shopping!" would be to condemn Joseph for saying "Let's build Nauvoo" or Brigham saying "Let's grow those silk worms" or Lorezno saying "Let's invest in that Sugar Beet factory" or Heber saying "Let's invest in that bank"...

Is there video or audio of Joseph, Brigham or Lorenzo uttering those phrases? Were they thinking 'let's show off our wealth as a church to the world'? What was their motivation for the business ventures they were interested in? Helping out members of the church or impressing Babylon? Were billions of dollars/sacred funds involved? All I know is if I were ever prophet of our church, I would never approve or be involved with something like City Creek, let alone showing up for the ribbon cutting ceremony and chanting '1-2-3, let's go shopping'. :ymsick:

You see, there is a solid history of the Church building resources through thrift, industry, wise investment and honest business practices. This has, in every instance, been for the building up of the kingdom and so too is City Creek. I suggest you do your part and address your concerns by actually researching what the Church has been up to. There is plenty of information online. Start at downtownrising.com.

I'm more concerned about this than visiting 'downtownrising.com' :ymsick: :

Seek the Truth wrote:

BrentL wrote:taxation

hyloglyph wrote:"Haha
this is actually a funny post
on the surface, its actually okay
then you remember, oh snap, we're not a fortune 500 company- we're a church"


Hahahaha

Aussie, you are right on brother.

I was cracking up when I read that. And the rest of your replies are refreshing. I think we need more Australians in the church.

AshleyB wrote:I usually tend to stay out of threads like this. Smallfarm, You really ARE a nice guy. A nice, meek, guy. And I like you. You made one comment about not presuming we know the mind of God. The scriptures say his ways are not our ways and I believe what the scriptures say. I also believe we are meant to know and understand the mind of God. The closer we come to Him the more we should know His mind. That is what it means to truly know someone. To know their character and their attributes and to have a proper understanding of what they would do in a given situation. That is where the Holy Ghost comes into play. We are not meant to be yankee guessers I can say without any sort of pride that I know the Lord would rather have our attentions focused on helping the needy and the poor. Because I have the Holy Ghost and I believe I am learning more and more what His true character is. I will say that personally I don't agree with City Creek. But I will also say that more importantly I believe we as a nation are not focused ENOUGH on what the mind and will of the Lord really is and that we should all be more focused on the poor and needy than we are. Our nation is now in trillions of dollars of debt. I don't think its wrong for people to voice their concerns. I believe it is the most honest approach to living the gospel. Is questioning ourselves individually and collectively and asking the important questions. While I don't agree with city creek and think its perfectly ok to voice concerns I still think the place where my attention is likely to do the most good is on myself and my family and how we deal with the stewardship we have been given. I think there are greater ways I could give more and flee Babylon more. Do I really need 15 pairs of shoes? Do I really need jewelry and make-up? I definitely don't. And I can honestly say that I could live without it. But its so much a part of our culture we don't even think about those kinds of things. I think the same can be said for City Creek and other things. I think its important to be honest with ourselves and realistic about where the Lord would really have our attentions focused. City Creek is just a good example of an overall collective problem of our people.

ebenezerarise wrote:

AussieOi wrote:Haha
this is actually a funny post
on the surface, its actually okay
then you remember, oh snap, we're not a fortune 500 company- we're church
better than that, we hold ourselves out to be a CHRISTIAN church
Even better, we hold ourselves out to fulfilling the mission of our saviour on earth
$1.5b over 30 years ($only $400m cash I might add)
$3b on a shopping centre.
Members who are told to go without food, rent, medical, fillings, all that stuff, after they come home from cleaning the chapel, wondering how they are going to make it to the nexst pay day, losing faith asking themselves "why hasn't any of our prophets seers and revelators actually delivered a revelation or prophecy since joseph smith" log on and see the Utah church NOT spending their tithing, and see their #1 prophet worship a red ribbon.

you went to the press conferences. were you an employee or a media person

is it possible that in either instance you were working for a business, and your view is a little myopic or defensive in this?

Oh? So now the figure is $3 billion? Amazing. Who are you to say the Church is not fulfilling its mission to the poor? Isn't that up to the One whose Church it is?

I've never heard of this church you speak of. Members are told to go without food? Never seen that in my life. And losing faith because of a lack of revelation? Where do you get this stuff?

I went to press conferences because I was representative of a company with a significant investment downtown. We had a decision to make relative to the future of the company in downtown.

I am not a Church employee and never have been. I've just been a front row eyewitness to this thing for years.

For a group that looks for conspiracy under every rock it amazes me the lack of research and rock turning done on this issue. There is just a blanket condemnation against the Church and its leadership that spent money that was never yours in the first place on a project that apparently some of you lack the vision of seeing. There are those here who won't look at the facts because they are hellbent on just declaring the Church devoid of fulfilling its duty to the poor and they use this and the President of the Church saying "Let's go shopping" as if it is some vile curse word.

I guess I've been hardheaded enough to think you can be reasoned with. But it appears I'm done because you view it the way you view it, regardless of the facts. I think that even if the Church had invested even $1 in this or any other temporal project would result in anything less than criticism by some people here who declare the Church their's to run.

You know, I work presently as the Ward Employment Specialist and I frequently go down to the local LDS employment office and make use of the resources there for the people I serve. The Church has invested there thousands of hours and whatever resources are necessary to give help to ANYONE who needs career services. I see my good Bishop, who works tirelessly attending to the needs of those in our ward, giving even to those folks who are not even members. I see dozens of people from my ward go when called to serve at the cannery, at the Bishop's storehouse or on Welfare Square where the Church has invested untold dollars in equipment and production of high quality foods and supplies that they freely give away. Many of these things have been in place for decades.

I've never seen a dime's accounting for any of these things. Not even an accounting for the value of what's given. But what folks here seem to dwell on is the cash, that which has to be "reported" somewhere as if the arm of the flesh is some kind of validation for both the Lord's direction and the Church's efforts.

My only question is..who do you think you ARE???

I hope you don't just sit there and raise your hand to sustain these men who declare on video "Let's go shopping". I hope you are honest enough to speak up, talk to your local leaders and throw these criticisms at them face-to-face, rather than hiding behind the anonymity of an Internet venue to air your bitter recriminations.

SmallFarm wrote:Col. Flagg,
I am concerned that you use the evil of others to justify sin.

SmallFarm... please do not be concerned because that is not the case at all. :ymblushing:

Why not give your ten-percent to the church and another ten-percent to needy families around you?

20%? If I did that, we would have to go without paying some of our bills... that's not an option. I've just decided to pay our 10% in tithing and if the brethren are using tithing funds for the wrong purposes or against the will of the Lord, it's on their heads, not mine. I just want to have a clean slate and conscience in the Lord's eyes, although, I certainly felt right and justified in donating our 10% this past year mostly to the fast offering fund and humanitarian aid and when our Bishop asked why I had done this during tithing settlement, I let the cat out of the bag and he expressed his understanding and even praised me for standing for what I thought was right. But he did emphasize that tithing is not a fast offering or humanitarian aid and so to be considered a full tithe payer and eligible for temple attendance, I needed to mark the tithing section. Realistically though, it almost doesn't really matter what section you mark on the donation slip because the little disclaimer at the bottom says that the church will make all accommodations to use the funds as designated, but that it reserves the right to use the money for whatever purposes it deems necessary.

Col. Flagg wrote:

SmallFarm wrote:Col. Flagg,
I am concerned that you use the evil of others to justify sin.

SmallFarm... please do not be concerned because that is not the case at all. :ymblushing:

Why not give your ten-percent to the church and another ten-percent to needy families around you?

20%? If I did that, we would have to go without paying some of our bills... that's not an option. I've just decided to pay our 10% in tithing and if the brethren are using tithing funds for the wrong purposes or against the will of the Lord, it's on their heads, not mine. I just want to have a clean slate and conscience in the Lord's eyes, although, I certainly felt right and justified in donating our 10% this past year mostly to the fast offering fund and humanitarian aid and when our Bishop asked why I had done this during tithing settlement, I let the cat out of the bag and he expressed his understanding and even praied me for standing for what I thought was right.

coachmarc wrote:Ugh, a poll turning into the big, green monster again. I can understand why some are so passionate. But think about it, we have been commanded to pay tithing since ancient times. I don't think that tithing money was used wisely by the ancient priests either, but the Lord commanded it nonetheless. It's about obedience to our covenants made in the temple. God didn't say, "Pay tithes and offerings....unless mine anointed are misusing funds." Individually, we are accountable to the Almighty for our own actions and not the actions of those who use or misuse our consecrated monies.