LDS Freedom Forum

I found some info on lds.org which reads:

When we find fault with Church leaders, we begin to separate ourselves from the Church.

"Whenever there is a disposition manifested in any of the members of this Church to question the right of the President of the whole Church to direct in all things, you see manifested evidences of apostasy—of a spirit which, if encouraged, will lead to a separation from the Church and to final destruction; wherever there is a disposition to operate against any legally appointed officer of this Kingdom, no matter in what capacity he is called to act, if persisted in, it will be followed by the same results; they will “walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed; they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities” [see 2 Peter 2:10] (DBY, 83).

When a man begins to find fault, inquiring in regard to this, that, and the other, saying, “Does this or that look as though the Lord dictated it?” you may know that that person has more or less of the spirit of apostasy. Every man in this Kingdom, or upon the face of the earth, who is seeking with all his heart to save himself, has as much to do as he can conveniently attend to, without calling in question that which does not belong to him. If he succeeds in saving himself, it has well occupied his time and attention. See to it that you are right yourselves; see that sins and folly do not manifest themselves with the rising sun (DBY, 83).

Many imbibe [conceive] the idea that they are capable of leading out in teaching principles that never have been taught. They are not aware that the moment they give way to this hallucination the Devil has power over them to lead them onto unholy ground; though this is a lesson which they ought to have learned long ago, yet it is one that was learned by but few in the days of Joseph (DBY, 77–78).

[Such a person] will make false prophecies, yet he will do it by the spirit of prophecy; he will feel that he is a prophet and can prophesy, but he does it by another spirit and power than that which was given him of the Lord. He uses the gift as much as you and I use ours (DBY, 82).

One of the first steps to apostasy is to find fault with your Bishop; and when that is done, unless repented of a second step is soon taken, and by and by the person is cut off from the Church, and that is the end of it. Will you allow yourselves to find fault with your Bishop? (DBY, 86).

No man gets power from God to raise disturbance in any Branch of the Church. Such power is obtained from an evil source (DBY, 72).

People do, however, leave this Church, but they leave it because they get into darkness, and the very day they conclude that there should be a democratic vote, or in other words, that we should have two candidates for the presiding Priesthood in the midst of the Latter-day Saints, they conclude to be apostates. There is no such thing as confusion, division, strife, animosity, hatred, malice, or two sides to the question in the house of God; there is but one side to the question there (DBY, 85)."

I have read several post on here where others are critical of the LDS leadership. So am I wrong to suggest that some might be on that slippery slope? From here on out things are only going to get tougher and last thing I want to see is people separating themselves from the Church.

Nephi294 wrote:I found some info on lds.org which reads:

When we find fault with Church leaders, we begin to separate ourselves from the Church.

"Whenever there is a disposition manifested in any of the members of this Church to question the right of the President of the whole Church to direct in all things, you see manifested evidences of apostasy—of a spirit which, if encouraged, will lead to a separation from the Church and to final destruction; wherever there is a disposition to operate against any legally appointed officer of this Kingdom, no matter in what capacity he is called to act, if persisted in, it will be followed by the same results; they will “walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed; they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities” [see 2 Peter 2:10] (DBY, 83).

When a man begins to find fault, inquiring in regard to this, that, and the other, saying, “Does this or that look as though the Lord dictated it?” you may know that that person has more or less of the spirit of apostasy. Every man in this Kingdom, or upon the face of the earth, who is seeking with all his heart to save himself, has as much to do as he can conveniently attend to, without calling in question that which does not belong to him. If he succeeds in saving himself, it has well occupied his time and attention. See to it that you are right yourselves; see that sins and folly do not manifest themselves with the rising sun (DBY, 83).

Many imbibe [conceive] the idea that they are capable of leading out in teaching principles that never have been taught. They are not aware that the moment they give way to this hallucination the Devil has power over them to lead them onto unholy ground; though this is a lesson which they ought to have learned long ago, yet it is one that was learned by but few in the days of Joseph (DBY, 77–78).

[Such a person] will make false prophecies, yet he will do it by the spirit of prophecy; he will feel that he is a prophet and can prophesy, but he does it by another spirit and power than that which was given him of the Lord. He uses the gift as much as you and I use ours (DBY, 82).

One of the first steps to apostasy is to find fault with your Bishop; and when that is done, unless repented of a second step is soon taken, and by and by the person is cut off from the Church, and that is the end of it. Will you allow yourselves to find fault with your Bishop? (DBY, 86).

No man gets power from God to raise disturbance in any Branch of the Church. Such power is obtained from an evil source (DBY, 72).

People do, however, leave this Church, but they leave it because they get into darkness, and the very day they conclude that there should be a democratic vote, or in other words, that we should have two candidates for the presiding Priesthood in the midst of the Latter-day Saints, they conclude to be apostates. There is no such thing as confusion, division, strife, animosity, hatred, malice, or two sides to the question in the house of God; there is but one side to the question there (DBY, 85)."

I have read several post on here where others are critical of the LDS leadership. So am I wrong to suggest that some might be on that slippery slope? From here on out things are only going to get tougher and last thing I want to see is people separating themselves from the Church.

Amen brother!

When we sustain someone to a position in the church, we let them play that position. I am not interested in playing monday-morning quarterback on someone elses job. Let them do it and let the Lord correct them or remove them if HE doesn't like the job they are doing.

That goes for investment decisions, malls, or anything else.

If men were like angels I would have no problem with this, but they are not. It is the nature and disposition of almost all men to excercise unrighteous dominion. I have had to many experiences were bishops teach false doctrine, use unrighteous dominion and coersion, go boldly against the handbook when the exact page and paragraph are cited to them, even to the point of bringing great evil on those who listen to them. All the while people fawn over them and say how good they are etc etc. Is it really the "Lord's will" that we be subject to that? No it is the height of folly. I guess Lehi, Samuel the Lamanite, Abinadi, John the Baptist, and Jesus, to name a few, were all "apostates" and going to Hell?
This talk appears to be snippits from a couple of BY talks. The footnotes all come from a very narrow section of DBY. Brigham gave just as many talks warning of the danger of this follow the leader no matter what attitude and Joseph did also. If there is confirmation from the Spirit we'd better give heed, if there is none or to the contrary, it is better to follow the Spirit than the arm of flesh. This has been debated here ad-nauseum.

bbrown wrote:If men were like angels I would have no problem with this, but they are not. It is the nature and disposition of almost all men to excercise unrighteous dominion. I have had to many experiences were bishops teach false doctrine, use unrighteous dominion and coersion, go boldly against the handbook when the exact page and paragraph are cited to them, even to the point of bringing great evil on those who listen to them. All the while people fawn over them and say how good they are etc etc. Is it really the "Lord's will" that we be subject to that? No it is the height of folly. I guess Lehi, Samuel the Lamanite, Abinadi, John the Baptist, and Jesus, to name a few, were all "apostates" and going to Hell?
This talk appears to be snippits from a couple of BY talks. The footnotes all come from a very narrow section of DBY. Brigham gave just as many talks warning of the danger of this follow the leader no matter what attitude and Joseph did also. If there is confirmation from the Spirit we'd better give heed, if there is none or to the contrary, it is better to follow the Spirit than the arm of flesh. This has been debated here ad-nauseum.

I completely agree with you! :ymapplause:

What bbrown said. And to add my own two cents (inflation factored in), I will only say this:

We must always follow Jesus Christ. The first place to look for the Master's voice is among the presiding authorities of the church, but they are not entitled to anyone's blind trust. No mortal is free from error and Joseph Smith even confessed his numerous faults and shortcomings. Brigham Young said it best when he cautioned:

"What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path that the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (JD 9:150)

We are to listen to gain a testimony from the Holy Ghost and not from men, because by following men (trusting in arm of flesh) turns us into idolaters who are worthy of the Telestial Kingdom. Ponder D&C 76:98-101

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

"Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to do in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them. They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the Celestial Kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, through all mankind besides should take the opposite course." (JD 1:312)

George Q. Cannon also expressed concern over following men, rather than the voice of the Spirit:

"Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an Apostle, or a President; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone; but if we lean on God, He never will fail us. When men and women depend on God alone, and trust in Him alone, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside. They could still see that He is just and true, that truth is lovely in His sight, and the pure in heart are dear to Him." (Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon)

When men speak as men, no matter their role in society or church, they are not entitled to your faith. If you give it to them, you are an idolater and following a telestial standard. When prophets speak by the voice of inspiration, then it is the voice of inspiration that you follow. We are His disciples and not His servants' disciples.

When Nephi took the brass plates and left Laman and his brothers, he took all those who believed in the Lord's words.

5 And it came to pass that the Lord did warn me, that I, Nephi, should depart from them and flee into the wilderness, and all those who would go with me.

6 Wherefore, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did take my family, and also Zoram and his family, and Sam, mine elder brother and his family, and Jacob and Joseph, my younger brethren, and also my sisters, and all those who would go with me. And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words.

One more quote:

“President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel – said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish Church – that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls – applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall – that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves...” (The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 237-238)

coachmarc wrote:What bbrown said. And to add my own two cents (inflation factored in), I will only say this:

We must always follow Jesus Christ. The first place to look for the Master's voice is among the presiding authorities of the church, but they are not entitled to anyone's blind trust. No mortal is free from error and Joseph Smith even confessed his numerous faults and shortcomings. Brigham Young said it best when he cautioned:

"What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path that the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (JD 9:150)

We are to listen to gain a testimony from the Holy Ghost and not from men, because by following men (trusting in arm of flesh) turns us into idolaters who are worthy of the Telestial Kingdom. Ponder D&C 76:98-101

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

"Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to do in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them. They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the Celestial Kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, through all mankind besides should take the opposite course." (JD 1:312)

George Q. Cannon also expressed concern over following men, rather than the voice of the Spirit:

"Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an Apostle, or a President; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone; but if we lean on God, He never will fail us. When men and women depend on God alone, and trust in Him alone, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside. They could still see that He is just and true, that truth is lovely in His sight, and the pure in heart are dear to Him." (Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon)

When men speak as men, no matter their role in society or church, they are not entitled to your faith. If you give it to them, you are an idolater and following a telestial standard. When prophets speak by the voice of inspiration, then it is the voice of inspiration that you follow. We are His disciples and not His servants' disciples.

When Nephi took the brass plates and left Laman and his brothers, he took all those who believed in the Lord's words.

5 And it came to pass that the Lord did warn me, that I, Nephi, should depart from them and flee into the wilderness, and all those who would go with me.

6 Wherefore, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did take my family, and also Zoram and his family, and Sam, mine elder brother and his family, and Jacob and Joseph, my younger brethren, and also my sisters, and all those who would go with me. And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words.

One more quote:

“President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel – said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish Church – that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls – applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall – that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves...” (The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 237-238)

:ymapplause:

+1 Coach! :ymapplause:

What bbrown said is a strawman argument. One can follow Christ and follow the brethren at the same time. One can respect the keys given to your bishop and not be relying on the arm of flesh at the same time. Throughout all of scripture murmuring against prophets is condemned. Joseph Smith taught that only he could provide revelation for the whole Church and he taught that we all must be saved independently and obtain our own relationship with God. There isn't any contradiction in it.

When we reject prophets sent by God and we reject priesthood keys given to men we enter into apostasy.

I never said we should blindly follow the LDS leadership with the no matter what attitude. I believe we should always pray about what is being taught and to let the spirit guide. Once we start fault finding we start to get on the slippery slope that will lead to Personal Apostasy.

Nephi294 wrote:I never said we should blindly follow the LDS leadership with the no matter what attitude.

You sure didn't. That's why they built a strawman argument.

I believe we should always pray about what is being taught and to let the spirit guide. Once we start fault finding we start to get on the slippery slope that will lead to Personal Apostasy.

That is pretty clear.

I do not think bbrown said anything about rejecting prophets or fault finding per se; just because one points out when church leaders teach false doctrine ( I have experienced the same thing and I am willing to speak up about it! ) I have also seen people get up and CORRECT the false doctrine to the correct doctrine. I find Nothing wrong with talking about experiences. Yes, it will be between those people who have taught false doctrine and the Lord but again, I don't think it is being apostate to talk about experiences. What bbrown said was " If there is confirmation from the Spirit we'd better give heed, if there is none or to the contrary, it is better to follow the Spirit than the arm of flesh. This has been debated here ad-nauseum." And to me, that is very clear.

Nephi294 wrote:I have read several post on here where others are critical of the LDS leadership. So am I wrong to suggest that some might be on that slippery slope? From here on out things are only going to get tougher and last thing I want to see is people separating themselves from the Church.

Perhaps it would be more beneficial to propose who's words are on the slippery slope so as to avoid confusion and straw man arguments. This forum is frequented by sincere folks as well as the occasional trolls. Reproving betimes with an outpouring of love quickly thereafter would also be more effective. We're all adults here.

MsEva wrote:I do not think bbrown said anything about rejecting prophets or fault finding per se; just because one points out when church leaders teach false doctrine ( I have experienced the same thing and I am willing to speak up about it! )

It's a strawman argument because this was not implied in the OP. At no point was it implied that bishops or whomever don't ever teach false doctrine whether accidentally or on purpose.

I have also seen people get up and CORRECT the false doctrine to the correct doctrine.

So flesh correcting flesh.

I find Nothing wrong with talking about experiences.

Nobody said there was anything wrong with it. That's why these sound like strawman arguments, nobody suggested what you are talking about.

Yes, it will be between those people who have taught false doctrine and the Lord but again, I don't think it is being apostate to talk about experiences.

Nobody said that. What was said is that if we reject prophets, apostles, or priesthood keys given to earthly men we enter in to apostasy.

What bbrown said was " If there is confirmation from the Spirit we'd better give heed, if there is none or to the contrary, it is better to follow the Spirit than the arm of flesh. This has been debated here ad-nauseum." And to me, that is very clear.

It sounds like bbrown is saying he doesn't have to follow a prophet unless he receives a spiritual confirmation. I find no basis for that in scripture or revelation.

This will be my last post in this thread. Please note that I cited three scriptures from the D&C, 1 Nephi and from Ezekiel 14 (as quoted by Joseph Smith) in my initial reply. That's two or three ample witnesses/revelation.

Seek the Truth wrote:What bbrown said is a strawman argument. One can follow Christ and follow the brethren at the same time. One can respect the keys given to your bishop and not be relying on the arm of flesh at the same time. Throughout all of scripture murmuring against prophets is condemned. Joseph Smith taught that only he could provide revelation for the whole Church and he taught that we all must be saved independently and obtain our own relationship with God. There isn't any contradiction in it.

When we reject prophets sent by God and we reject priesthood keys given to men we enter into apostasy.

I find it kind of funny when someone doesn;t agree with something that someone else says, but can't find anything specific to disagree with, they often raise the "strawman argument" as a means of discrediting what the other person has to say.

It's a little bit ironic, don'cha think?

I'll give an example of fault finding, that I have kept to myself, but I am going to share it and wonder if it means I am on the road to apostacy...

I have been led to study the Lectures on Faith a lot recently, and also the history of the Lectures on Faith. I feel that there is material, especially in Lectures 3 and 4, that there is nowhere in scripture that teaches more plainly truths about the nature of God and DETAILED EXPLANATIONS of why understanding those attributes of God is important for us so that we can have faith unto salvation. Beautiful and very plain to understand materials.

I also understand that a committee consisting of Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, and Frederick G. Williams were responsible for compiling the materials that were included in the LoF. The materials were accepted by the body of the church as scripture. In fact, previous to them being added, the book that we call the Doctrine and Covenants was simply called "The Book of Covenants and Commandments". When they were included, the Lectures on Faith were introduced as "the first part, being the DOCTRINE of the CHURCH of JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS, and then the rest, or what we currently have was introduced as "the second part, being the COVENANTS AND COMMANDMENTS of the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS. So it is clear that the name of the book was changed to reflect the DOCTRINE (being the Lectures on Faith) and the Covenants part (being the rest, and what we currently call the D&C)

Then in 1921, the LoF were removed. Joseph Fielding Smith said the following concerning their removal:
a) They were not received as revelations by the prophet Joseph Smith. (but he was on the four man committee that submitted them for approval by the rest of the church)
b) They are instructions relative to the general subject of faith. They are explanations of this principle but not doctrine. (If they were not doctrine then why were they the "DOCTRINE" part of the Doctrine and Covenants?)
c) They are not complete as to their teachings regarding the Godhead. More complete instructions on the point of doctrine are given in section 130 of the 1876 and all subsequent editions of the Doctrine and Covenants. (I read Section 130 this morning, and it doesn;t hold a CANDLE to the explanations given in the LoF)
d) It was thought by Elder James E. Talmage, chairman, and other members of the committee who were responsible for their omission that to avoid confusion and contention on this vital point of belief, it would be better not to have them bound in the same volume as the commandments or revelations which make up the Doctrine and Covenants I wonder if it was by direct revelation that they were commanded to omit them, and if it was, why is that revelation not included in the D&C - and if it was NOT by direct revelation, it seems that someone took a lot upon themselves to remove from scripture materials that the prophet of this dispensation saw fit to include!)

So yes, understanding the history and having read the lectures myself, I side with Joseph Smith and find fault with those who later determined to remove them. I don't feel apostate at all. Regarding the Lectures on Faith, Bruce R, McConkie said:
, "They were not themselves classed as revelations, but in them is to be found some of the best lesson material ever prepared on the Godhead; on the character, perfections, and attributes of God; on faith, miracles, and sacrifice. They can be studied with great profit by all gospel scholars."

I think that those who had the material removed erred in doing so. If someone wants to condemn me for apostacy, I recommend reading the Lectures on Faith and pointing out what exactly necessitated its removal after over 80 years of being canonized scripture.

Original_Intent wrote: I find it kind of funny when someone doesn;t agree with something that someone else says, but can't find anything specific to disagree with, they often raise the "strawman argument" as a means of discrediting what the other person has to say.

It's a little bit ironic, don'cha think?

Not really. bbrown went into an exposition on bad bishops when it wasn't brought up in the OP. The word bishop was, and the comment was to not fault find them. Nothing wrong with that.

Further, he rejected the words of Brigham Young.

I think that those who had the material removed erred in doing so. If someone wants to condemn me for apostacy, I recommend reading the Lectures on Faith and pointing out what exactly necessitated its removal after over 80 years of being canonized scripture.

You are free to make whatever choices you wish to make.

StT, I I guess it's how eachone has interpreted a post...I could say that what you have said is a straw mans argument too...because I agree with bbrown and coach. If the "flesh" that is correcting the "flesh" is giving the CORRECT doctrine then it is much better than people start believing the FALSE DOCTRINE! And it is up to all to pray about what is being taught! Coach gave a source- "What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path that the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (JD 9:150)
It sounds like to me bbrown knows that we can gain a witness of what the prophets say and when gaining that witness by the SPIRIT of the Lord that then we act upon that-which is correct.

coachmarc wrote:What bbrown said. And to add my own two cents (inflation factored in), I will only say this:

We must always follow Jesus Christ. The first place to look for the Master's voice is among the presiding authorities of the church, but they are not entitled to anyone's blind trust. No mortal is free from error and Joseph Smith even confessed his numerous faults and shortcomings. Brigham Young said it best when he cautioned:

"What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path that the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (JD 9:150)

We are to listen to gain a testimony from the Holy Ghost and not from men, because by following men (trusting in arm of flesh) turns us into idolaters who are worthy of the Telestial Kingdom. Ponder D&C 76:98-101

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

"Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to do in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them. They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the Celestial Kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, through all mankind besides should take the opposite course." (JD 1:312)

George Q. Cannon also expressed concern over following men, rather than the voice of the Spirit:

"Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an Apostle, or a President; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone; but if we lean on God, He never will fail us. When men and women depend on God alone, and trust in Him alone, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside. They could still see that He is just and true, that truth is lovely in His sight, and the pure in heart are dear to Him." (Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon)

When men speak as men, no matter their role in society or church, they are not entitled to your faith. If you give it to them, you are an idolater and following a telestial standard. When prophets speak by the voice of inspiration, then it is the voice of inspiration that you follow. We are His disciples and not His servants' disciples.

When Nephi took the brass plates and left Laman and his brothers, he took all those who believed in the Lord's words.

5 And it came to pass that the Lord did warn me, that I, Nephi, should depart from them and flee into the wilderness, and all those who would go with me.

6 Wherefore, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did take my family, and also Zoram and his family, and Sam, mine elder brother and his family, and Jacob and Joseph, my younger brethren, and also my sisters, and all those who would go with me. And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words.

One more quote:

“President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel – said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish Church – that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls – applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall – that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves...” (The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 237-238)

ALL of coaches sources are clear in how we should approach this.

Mseva, these are still strawman arguments. Nowhere in the OP did it mention that you should believe everything a bishop says. Nowhere in the OP does it say a bishop is a prophet. Nowhere in the OP does it say that you are saved by a man. Nowhere in the OP does it say that you don't need your own relationship with God and that you are not responsible for your own salvation and that you can leave it to another. Nowhere in the OP does it say to not pray to gain a testimony of the teaching of prophet. It doesn't say any of these things anywhere in the OP. It has no bearing on the OP.

The OP simply states that fault finding authorities is the road to apostasy, none of the contrary responses are related to the OP, hence strawman arguments.

One of the first steps to apostasy is to find fault with your Bishop; and when that is done, unless repented of a second step is soon taken, and by and by the person is cut off from the Church, and that is the end of it. Will you allow yourselves to find fault with your Bishop? (DBY, 86).
Bishops were mentioned in the OP see above.

In most of these discussions, in most Sunday school lessons, most conference talks adressing this, what is meant by "fault finding", "not sustaining" or "speaking against the bretheren" is disagreeing or not adhering to the presiding authority's interpretation(be it a RS president, Bishop or GA). This is especially used by the types who use unrighteous dominion in my experience. They cite a verse or two, or a quote or two, frequently out of context and expect imediate obedience. Anything else is "apostacy", or "murmuring" or whatever. apostacy is a word too easily thrown around when we want to silence something we don't like. Noone wants to be "apostate".

My comment on recieving confirmation or not, implies prayer and seeking the Lord in all things. I know too many "faithful" members who do what ever the Bishop says because he is the bishop, and never give a second thought, let alone study or prayer. This attitude is even stronger in my experience when the "words of the Prophet" are invoked. "the thinking is done!" Who cares what the prophet actually said, the whole context or even the next verse, THe Prophet has been invoked and any further discussion, or thought is apostacy.

We have built up the infallibility doctrine "the Lord will remove them if they go astray" and it is leading us in dangerous directions. A few years ago I would have been agreeing with Seek or Nephi, but after experiencing enough unrighteous dominion and force and the incalculable damage that causes to the church or at least members on the "wrong" side of it, I have learned that the Spirit trumps the Prophet and more especially Bishop. That said I have found very little that is not applicable from the President, but he speaks in very broad terms to a broad audience, I've never seen him in person. On more local levels I have seen great suffering and experienced much myself because of "inspired" policies and "Comandments" given by GA's, mission presidents, stake presidents, bishops etc. Suggesting something is off, or needs to be reconsidered is imediately condemned with the standard accusations.

I was going to make a post about the OP, but after reading bbrown's comment, I think he said it much better than I could.

bbrown wrote:One of the first steps to apostasy is to find fault with your Bishop; and when that is done, unless repented of a second step is soon taken, and by and by the person is cut off from the Church, and that is the end of it. Will you allow yourselves to find fault with your Bishop? (DBY, 86).
Bishops were mentioned in the OP see above.

In most of these discussions, in most Sunday school lessons, most conference talks adressing this, what is meant by "fault finding", "not sustaining" or "speaking against the bretheren" is disagreeing or not adhering to the presiding authority's interpretation(be it a RS president, Bishop or GA). This is especially used by the types who use unrighteous dominion in my experience. They cite a verse or two, or a quote or two, frequently out of context and expect imediate obedience. Anything else is "apostacy", or "murmuring" or whatever. apostacy is a word too easily thrown around when we want to silence something we don't like. Noone wants to be "apostate".

My comment on recieving confirmation or not, implies prayer and seeking the Lord in all things. I know too many "faithful" members who do what ever the Bishop says because he is the bishop, and never give a second thought, let alone study or prayer. This attitude is even stronger in my experience when the "words of the Prophet" are invoked. "the thinking is done!" Who cares what the prophet actually said, the whole context or even the next verse, THe Prophet has been invoked and any further discussion, or thought is apostacy.

We have built up the infallibility doctrine "the Lord will remove them if they go astray" and it is leading us in dangerous directions. A few years ago I would have been agreeing with Seek or Nephi, but after experiencing enough unrighteous dominion and force and the incalculable damage that causes to the church or at least members on the "wrong" side of it, I have learned that the Spirit trumps the Prophet and more especially Bishop. That said I have found very little that is not applicable from the President, but he speaks in very broad terms to a broad audience, I've never seen him in person. On more local levels I have seen great suffering and experienced much myself because of "inspired" policies and "Comandments" given by GA's, mission presidents, stake presidents, bishops etc. Suggesting something is off, or needs to be reconsidered is imediately condemned with the standard accusations.

bbrown wrote: Bishops were mentioned in the OP see above.

As I addressed they were mentioned, and all that was said was not to find fault with them. Nowhere did it say that they are perfect and can't do anything wrong.

In most of these discussions, in most Sunday school lessons, most conference talks adressing this, what is meant by "fault finding", "not sustaining" or "speaking against the bretheren" is disagreeing or not adhering to the presiding authority's interpretation(be it a RS president, Bishop or GA). This is especially used by the types who use unrighteous dominion in my experience. They cite a verse or two, or a quote or two, frequently out of context and expect imediate obedience. Anything else is "apostacy", or "murmuring" or whatever. apostacy is a word too easily thrown around when we want to silence something we don't like. Noone wants to be "apostate".

I think there is a great deal of content on the subject.

My comment on recieving confirmation or not, implies prayer and seeking the Lord in all things. I know too many "faithful" members who do what ever the Bishop says because he is the bishop, and never give a second thought, let alone study or prayer. This attitude is even stronger in my experience when the "words of the Prophet" are invoked. "the thinking is done!" Who cares what the prophet actually said, the whole context or even the next verse, THe Prophet has been invoked and any further discussion, or thought is apostacy.

That may be true, it's just not related to the OP. IMV it makes it a strawman argument, because at no point in the OP did it say the members are doing everything right, or even imply this.

We have built up the infallibility doctrine "the Lord will remove them if they go astray" and it is leading us in dangerous directions. A few years ago I would have been agreeing with Seek or Nephi, but after experiencing enough unrighteous dominion and force and the incalculable damage that causes to the church or at least members on the "wrong" side of it, I have learned that the Spirit trumps the Prophet and more especially Bishop. That said I have found very little that is not applicable from the President, but he speaks in very broad terms to a broad audience, I've never seen him in person. On more local levels I have seen great suffering and experienced much myself because of "inspired" policies and "Comandments" given by GA's, mission presidents, stake presidents, bishops etc. Suggesting something is off, or needs to be reconsidered is imediately condemned with the standard accusations.

That could be, but it doesn't address the OP. Or if it does, it goes against the words of a prophet.

I have been deeply wronged by people in authority above me, but have never thought the gospel wasn't true, the church wasn't true, or that priesthood keys were invalid.

I don't know anywhere where anyone but prophets can give commandments. My understanding is that Mission Presidents, Stake Presidents, and Bishops may obtain inspiration for their charges, but it is not guaranteed nor does it go beyond inspiration into the realm of commandment.

I think having a knowledge of D&C 107 works very well to correct people straying into error.

Bbrown, Well said. :ymapplause:

Although Church authorities and leaders, including apostles, prophets, stake presidents and bishops can help point us in the right direction, when it comes to salvation, there are no mortal intermediaries. None of these leaders can actually lead us to God. Only the Holy Ghost can lead us to Jesus Christ, and only Christ can lead us to the Father.

True personal apostasy results from rejecting the spirit and failing to do what is necessary to have a personal, saving relationship with God.

What is interesting is that there may be many members of the Church who never breathe a word against any of their leaders, but at the same time are completely dependent upon them, and have no genuine, personal understanding of what it really takes to achieve exaltation, let alone do it.

On the other hand, there are plenty of Church leaders who likewise have no genuine understanding of saving principles, and/or are outright misguided. But salvation is not dependent upon any of this, or our opinions or relationships with Church leaders. Salvation is dependent upon our own personal relationships with God.

The "strawman" label seems to be very popular in this thread, and there are plenty of strawman arguments being thrown around, but for the most part they are not actually the ones being accused of that label.

There is that saying: "It's not what you don't know that gets you in trouble. It's what you know for certain that just ain't so." My guess is God sees discussions like this and just scratches His head and chuckles.

The OP was when we find fault with Church leaders, we begin to separate ourselves from the Church. I never said we shouldn't think for ourselves or that we should follow blindly. I too know some LDS people that do "follow blindly." Let's take for example the recent arrest of a bishop in Ogden, Ut. He frauded many single students in his ward. Could these students have had the mentality "Hey he's the Bishop he would never do anything to hurt me." Maybe if they had prayed about his offers and sought the spirit they wouldn't have been victims.

As for finding fault with Church leaders we should sustain them in their callings and help when asked. If we have some reservations we should be praying for guidance. I guess I just get alittle flustered when members take it upon themselves to counsel or find fault with the Brethren (First Presidency and Quorum of The Twelve Apostles) and seek to counsel them.....just a few examples....."The Church shouldn't have built that mall or The Church shouldn't have gotten involved in prop 8." I have faith that our Leaders know exactly what they are doing. Do we not all belief that these men are Prophets and Apostles of The Lord Jesus Christ?