LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 8:59 am**

Seek the Truth wrote:
ajax wrote:So a person is on the road to apostasy if they so much as question the church for building a muti-billion dollar mall which caters to the rich?
If you can find in scripture of revelation where you can do that please let me know.

I will be happy to, as soon as I find the scripture where the Lord commands to build the mall. D&C 139 I think. I have an older edition of the D&C. Can anybody with a newer edition look up D&C 139 for me?
while at the same time tells its members through its monthly magazine to pay the organization before feeding your family?
Tithing has been taught throughout history. If you can find anywhere in scripture or revelation where this is not taught let me know.
I never said it wasn't. They question is 10% of what? (Oh no, not this again. Different thread)
So is the attitude we want to instill in church members,
"The thinking has been done for you?"
and
"Move along, there is nothing to see here." ?
Strawman argument. Ok, I will answer for you - NO.

If my understanding is correct, they(our leaders) are our servants, not our masters. And as servants, have no right to shush us up if we may have concerns.
Still slightly strawman argument. If you can find in the scriptures or revelation where we are allowed to murmur let me know.
D&C 107:30-32 allows for unrighteous decisions to be appealed. I wonder how anybody could even start this process without first questioning. Also, assuming we are all on equal footing, D&C 42:88 onward could also apply.

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 9:13 am**

natasha wrote:
sixth seal wrote:
Nephi294 wrote:I have read several post on here where others are critical of the LDS leadership. So am I wrong to suggest that some might be on that slippery slope? From here on out things are only going to get tougher and last thing I want to see is people separating themselves from the Church.
Amen brother!
And I'm in 100% agreement!

:ymsigh:

Ok, one more post from me. I don't think anyone disputes the fact that "finding fault with LDS leadership" puts us on a slippery slope. That said, rather than take the easy road and suggest that "some might be on that slippery slope," why not just come out and name names? Point your fingers at your brothers and sisters on this forum, cite their apostate quotes and then tell everyone why you believe they are on a slippery slope. This saves a lot more time and gets right to the point. If you're going to cast a light on people's faults, then focus that baby rather than make a blanket statement. I'll even jump in the spotlight and invite everyone to tell me if I'm a wayward soul in danger of apostatizing. Now can I get some amens?

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 9:24 am**

I agree coach.

Seek the Truth wrote:
Nephi294 wrote:
I have faith that our Leaders know exactly what they are doing. Do we not all belief that these men are Prophets and Apostles of The Lord Jesus Christ?
Some do not on this website.

Who?

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 9:40 am**

Nephis and Lehis relationship is very much like the relationship we as members should have with the leaders of our church.

Lehi was called to reveice the revelations for his family. Nephi was so excited about Lehis revelations that he desired them for himselfe. The Lord responded and in some passeges we get the impression that Nephi received even more knowledge than his father. Even though Nephi talked with the Lord himselfe, Lehi still received the commandments for his family ( incuding for Nephi ). This pattern even continued at times when Lehi showed faults and weaknesses.

When Nephis hunting bow broke, and he came home without food even the patriarch Lehi started to mourn against the Lord.

When we compare this situation to our situation today, what can we learn from the situation? What from Nephis behaviour?.. I learned this..

1. Yes, leaders do have faults and errors ( Just like Lehi when the bow broke, and, by the way, like all of us )
2. Yes, sometimes certain members might even be closer to the lord, and receive more knowledge then the leaders ( Just like Nephi )
3. Still, it caused Nephi to do something about it by making a new bow ( No gosip, but good work

4. Still, Nephi respected his fathers authority and asked his father that he should ask the lord where to go for the hunting
5. Even though Nephi respected Lehis authority, it did not keep him from acting for himselfe and from doing something about it... but
he did it in the proper manner

Nephi was aware of his fathers weakness, and I believe because of his awareness Nephi acted differently, but still supported his father. Nephi did what was right and followed the impressions he received. I believe this is how we should act aswell. Christ is the person we need to follow, and if leaders are of christ, we are to follow them, if they are not, we are not.. It's that simple.

No matter how good any leader may be, it should never keep us from developing a personal relationship to Christ. No matter how bad any leader may be, it should never keep us from doing the things WE can do to bring his work foreward. If anything distracts us from this course, it is not of God.

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 9:47 am**

If you're going to cast a light on people's faults, then focus that baby rather than make a blanket statement. I'll even jump in the spotlight and invite everyone to tell me if I'm a wayward soul in danger of apostatizing. Now can I get some amens?

Amen.

In the end, I think we will learn that all the holier-than-thou finger pointing will be far more dangerous to salvation that sincerely seeking and asking questions, etc. Eventually, hopefully we all get to the point where we simply don't worry so much about other peoples' weaknesses, including our leaders' and we spend most of our time/effort focusing on our own relationship with God, repenting, and doing what we can to serve Him, and fill the unique measure of our own creation, without worrying quite so much, in the throes of mote and beam disease, about how everyone else is going wrong.

No matter how good any leader may be, it should never keep us from developing a personal relationship to Christ. No matter how bad any leader may be, it should never keep us from doing the things WE can do.

And Amen.

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 9:50 am**

Ok, one more post from me. I don't think anyone disputes the fact that "finding fault with LDS leadership" puts us on a slippery slope. That said, rather than take the easy road and suggest that "some might be on that slippery slope," why not just come out and name names? Point your fingers at your brothers and sisters on this forum, cite their apostate quotes and then tell everyone why you believe they are on a slippery slope. This saves a lot more time and gets right to the point. If you're going to cast a light on people's faults, then focus that baby right on each of us rather than make a blanket statement. I'll even jump in the spotlight and invite everyone to tell me if I'm a wayward soul in danger of apostatizing. Now can I get some amens?

Been there done that coach. It results in being sent to the doghouse by the mods. Just go to any discussion on this forum about things like oh lets say certain malls being built for example and you will find plenty of innuendo's and accusations being dished out that could constitute finding fault with church leadership. That is if you think comparing them to wicked and idolatrous scriptural warnings from past Prophets would constitute finding fault with LDS leadership. I guess you will have to decide that for yourself.

In my book losing confidence with church leadership and thinking the worst of their actions puts one on the slippery slope. I can second guess their decisions all day long but unless I am put in that position and understand all the ramifications of why they do what they do I am nothing more than an armchair monday morning quarterback casting aspersions on things that I had no personal understanding of. To each there own I guess.

We will all be accountable to our Lord for what we decide to do with our agency. I just prefer to pay more attention to my own faults and failings than to spend my energies picking out what I perceive are imperfections of church leadership. But for the grace of God go I..

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 10:16 am**

Thank you Mark! :ymapplause:

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 10:27 am**

Mark, I understand. But it's not what you say. It's how you say it. I have no problem telling someone that they are wrong if they are wrong. Beyond that, all we can do is state why we disagree. The Savior taught us how. Now if we can learn to reprove one another correctly as the Savior instructed, we can all be more edified and enlightened. Again, it's easy to say there are apostates in this community, but learning how to address the matter as our brothers keepers is where we learn to be like our Savior. And that is precisely what He commands.

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 11:27 am**

coachmarc wrote:Mark, I understand. But it's not what you say. It's how you say it.

Unfortunately the moderators aren't always Christlike so you can't relate the "what" and "how" to Christ then apply it to this forum and think you're being meaningful.

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 11:47 am**

shadow wrote:Unfortunately the moderators aren't always Christlike so you can't relate the "what" and "how" to Christ then apply it to this forum and think you're being meaningful.

wait, what?! I thought the moderator's were infallible? aren't they? :-ss

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 12:08 pm**

If we follow any leader blindly, we make ourselves dependend on their revelation and will fall as soon as the winds blow
If we search for personal weaknesses in our leaders we make ourselves dependend on our own weak judgement and get distracted from the really important things, which would be our personal progression

If we instead follow our leaders with an independend mind, personal revelation and an awareness of what is true or false doctrine, we will stand even when the winds blow, and even if an leader should err

Our journey towards salvation is an journey independent from all the people around us, the only person we must depend on is Jesus Christ. And this is the difference. Unnecessary critisism aswell as following without questioning will keep us from coming unto Christ. Being free of crtisism does not mean to not be aware when "things are wrong". And if there are instances where "things are wrong" we only can do something about it if we are aware of it, this to me is not apostacy.

In the end it is my opinion that it really doesn't matter what our leaders do, if we know what we do is in line with Christ. If our leaders would do totally wrong, it would be our duty to do better, and to support them in the best way we can

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 12:29 pm**

BrianM wrote:
shadow wrote:Unfortunately the moderators aren't always Christlike so you can't relate the "what" and "how" to Christ then apply it to this forum and think you're being meaningful.
wait, what?! I thought the moderator's were infallible? aren't they? :-ss

)

This thread has really taken off down the strawman road since I last read it. Strawman hobby, anyone? (I think snowmen are much more fun to play with.)

As I'm sure you know, there is a way to ignore posts, FreedomFighter. You might consider it if the non-logical attacks become too irritating.

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 12:30 pm**

Amen, Simon. Well said.

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 1:23 pm**

In a way I do understand Nephi294, because during the last years I came across many people that have become quiet enthusiastic about the failings of our leaders. And I think many truely focus a lot on critisism ( not so much in this forum ), and I think where we should differ is that we do less critisise, but rather dicern. There are many wolves in sheepclothing, as Gorden B: Hinkley said himselfe "even in our own ranks".. If we do not question at all, we will be easy victims to such wolves. If we are not independend and selfsustaining in our testimony we are quick to follow them in false directions...

I remember couple years back when a bishop of a ward fell aways, almoust half of the ward fell away with him... and this is what I mean..

I like Nephis vision of the tree of life and the example of people falling away after tasting of the fruit. Why did they fall away ? Because they gave "attention" to the people in the great and spacious building. I think there is a great lesson we can learn from Nephis vision.

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 1:50 pm**

I was encouraged to look up the definition for a strawman, so here it is:

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_argument" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1. Person 1 has position X.

2. Person 2 disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. The position Y is a distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:

2.a Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.

2.b Quoting an opponent's words out of context—i.e., choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[4]

2.c Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments—thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[3]

2.d Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.

2.e Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.

3. Person 2 attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

Person 1, Nephi 249 pulled some quotes about apostasy.

Person 2, bbrown made statements about bad bishops and trusting in the arm of flesh. Other Persons pulled quotes about caffeine, garments. blind following, etc.

Since Person 1 made no implications about caffeine, garments, blind following by this definition the bulk of the discordant responses are strawmen by point 2.a. Person 1, Nephi249 never made any statements about false beliefs of members, that bishops are incapable of fault, that bishops never make mistakes, that all members always believe all the truth, etc. All of the people that disagreed with him brought arguments and statements that did not relate to his position, so are strawmen by definition 2.a. None of the counterarguments are related to the positions initially posed by Nephy 249.

Now I suppose the counterargument could be that bbrown and others did not explicitly misstate Nephi249's position, so it could not be a strawman. I think that is quite debatable, but if true then we are left with a red herring argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I still go with strawman because the responses were not directed at the OP but at an imaginary separate set of topics (do Bishops make mistakes, do members believe funny things, etc) that did not address the OP.

And I admit I could be wrong, there may be another term for arguments where you change the subject and argue about something no one brought up, if there is a technical term for that anyone knows about please let me know.

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 1:57 pm**

Thank goodness. I was afraid that the thread would deviate from the topic of strawmen.

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 2:13 pm**

I was encouraged to get into the definition by someone else, so don't shoot the messenger.

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 2:17 pm**

Thank goodness. I was afraid that the thread would deviate from the topic of strawmen.

I too am thankful, and vastly relieved, because I think strawmen, and being able to identify and talk about them at length will ultimately be critical to our salvation.

In that sense, it may be the most important thread on the whole forum.

So, can someone please change the title to "Strawman Salvation" or "Strawman Revolution," or revelation or some such name that will give the label its due both in this discussion and the overall quest for salvation.

I was encouraged to get into the definition by someone else, so don't shoot the messenger.

Good point. The strawman message so important that we wouldn't want to shoot the messenger.

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 4:57 pm**

We are all fallen and in a state of apostasy. To believe otherwise is prideful and pious. It's when we recognize the fallen state that room is made for progression. Without that recognition, we are doomed to believe all is well to be doomed to a less than exalted sphere.

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 5:34 pm**

5. perhaps we change the hijack of the thread from defining a strawman to defining trolls.

Bilbo's (from Trollshaws), from Moria, or from Mordor? :-B

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 6:08 pm**

We are all fallen and in a state of apostasy. To believe otherwise is prideful and pious. It's when we recognize the fallen state that room is made for progression. Without that recognition, we are doomed to believe all is well to be doomed to a less than exalted sphere.

Well said. See Mosiah 4:1-3. One of the biggest signs of the fallen state of apostasy that we are in both individually and collectively is our serious and adamant state of denial.

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 6:47 pm**

I think the Saints need to recognize that men can in fact lead us astray. It may not be to commit serious sins, I don't think any of the prophets or apostles would do that, but omit vitally important truths.

According to Doctrine and Covenants 107 the "body" chooses the three presiding high priests and these presiding high priests should be like unto Moses. Simply picking any worthy high priest doesn't mean he is now a prophet.

21 Of necessity there are presidents, or presiding officers growing out of, or appointed of or from among those who are ordained to the several offices in these two priesthoods.

22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

91 And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses—

92 Behold, here is wisdom; yea, to be a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet, having all the gifts of God which he bestows upon the head of the church.

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 7:06 pm**

AGStacker wrote: Simply picking any worthy high priest doesn't mean he is now a prophet.

Ugh. Not this again.

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=26980" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 7:09 pm**

Daryl wrote:We are all fallen and in a state of apostasy. To believe otherwise is prideful and pious. It's when we recognize the fallen state that room is made for progression. Without that recognition, we are doomed to believe all is well to be doomed to a less than exalted sphere.

Absolutely true. When we deny apostasy, especially in ourselves, we set ourselves up for a Light - and perhaps we just aren't as bright as we think we are. (All have fallen short of the glory of God; that's why the Atonement exists.)

Of course, all of that does not mean we fling the word "apostate" around - at others or at ourselves.

Posted: **January 21st, 2013, 7:10 pm**

HeirofNumenor wrote:
5. perhaps we change the hijack of the thread from defining a strawman to defining trolls.
Bilbo's (from Trollshaws), from Moria, or from Mordor? :-B

Not knowing the specifics of any of those, I vote for the ones from Trollshaws.

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