LDS Freedom Forum

I have long been familiar with the moving testimony of our prophet Wilford Woodruff, and his visitation in the Saint George Temple with the founders of our country. I recently learned, from rereading his testimony that one of these choice men was indeed Christopher Columbus, as identified by the prophet. Below is a the testimony of Ezra Taft Benson on this spiritual event, commenting on the excellence of these choice spirits and their high standing among the creations of God. He also censors anyone that questions the character of these mighty men. I have mixed feelings about this, because according to the accounts I have read regarding the adventures of Christopher Columbus, he was an absolute scumbag mercenary, genocidal pirate, to say the least. In no way would I consider this man (historically speaking) a good person. Am I mistaken?

Here is a segment from Ezra Traft Bensons beautiful testimony regarding the spiritual encounter of President Woodruff.

"Shortly after Spencer W. Kimball became president of the Church, we met together in one of out weekly meetings. We spoke of the sacred records that are in the vaults of the various temples of the Church. As I was soon to fill a conference assignment to St. George, President Kimball asked if I would go into the vault at the temple and check the early records. In so doing, I realized the fulfillment of a dream I had had ever since learning of the visit of the Founding Fathers to this sacred place. I saw with my own eyes the records of the work that was done for the Founding Fathers of this great nation, beginning with George Washington. I was deeply moved on that occasion to realize that these great men returned to this promised land by permission of the Lord and had their ordinance work done for them. If they had not been faithful men, if they had not been God-fearing men, would they have come to the elders of Israel to seek their temple blessings? I think not. The Lord raised them up, sanctioned their work, and proclaimed them “wise men.” Moreover, a president of the Church declared them to be the “best spirits the God of heaven could find on the face of the earth,” and testified that they were “choice spirits” and “inspired of the Lord.” 3

The temple work for the fifty-six signers of the Declaration of Independence and other Founding Fathers has been done. All these appeared to Wilford Woodruff when he was President of the St. George Temple. President George Washington was ordained a high priest at that time. You will also be interested to know that according to Wilford Woodruff’s journal, John Wesley, Benjamin Franklin, and Christopher Columbus were also ordained high priests at that time. When one casts doubt about the character of these noble sons of God, I believe he or she will have to answer to the God of heaven for it."

Wow amazing thanks for sharing and welcome to the forum Mouse! Is your name Mouse as in Mouse from the Matrix Film?

I would council on the side of caution. How does the world teach and speak of Joseph Smith? You've just posted a statement from then, apostle Benson, testifying of who this man was. Recognizing truth is truly enjoyable.

I have learned about Christopher Columbus from Glenn Kimber (Cleon Skousen's son-in-law) and Nephi (1 Nephi 13:12) Glenn teaches that Nephi was visited by Moroni (JD talk from General Conference in 1850's; Moroni is America's guardian angel) Columbus was hesitant to discuss this openly-- Joan of Arc was not that much earlier than Columbus and she was put to death for saying she heard voices. Columbus knew he would find a remnant of Israel. The interpreters he took with him were Hebrew. He prayed. His crew was going to mutiny, Columbus said three more days and we will turn back. It was on the last night that land was spotted. Columbus knew, and talked about being led by the hand of God. History has made him evil.


Joan of Arc is interesting, too. She helped make sure France was an independent nation from England. Then, a few hundred years later, when America was fighting for independence from England, France was there to help us. We, then, were able to become the only nation where the restoration of the gospel could occur.

mouse wrote:I have long been familiar with the moving testimony of our prophet Wilford Woodruff, and his visitation in the Saint George Temple with the founders of our country. I recently learned, from rereading his testimony that one of these choice men was indeed Christopher Columbus, as identified by the prophet. Below is a the testimony of Ezra Taft Benson on this spiritual event, commenting on the excellence of these choice spirits and their high standing among the creations of God. He also censors anyone that questions the character of these mighty men. I have mixed feelings about this, because according to the accounts I have read regarding the adventures of Christopher Columbus, he was an absolute scumbag mercenary, genocidal pirate, to say the least. In no way would I consider this man (historically speaking) a good person. Am I mistaken?

Here is a segment from Ezra Traft Bensons beautiful testimony regarding the spiritual encounter of President Woodruff.

"Shortly after Spencer W. Kimball became president of the Church, we met together in one of out weekly meetings. We spoke of the sacred records that are in the vaults of the various temples of the Church. As I was soon to fill a conference assignment to St. George, President Kimball asked if I would go into the vault at the temple and check the early records. In so doing, I realized the fulfillment of a dream I had had ever since learning of the visit of the Founding Fathers to this sacred place. I saw with my own eyes the records of the work that was done for the Founding Fathers of this great nation, beginning with George Washington. I was deeply moved on that occasion to realize that these great men returned to this promised land by permission of the Lord and had their ordinance work done for them. If they had not been faithful men, if they had not been God-fearing men, would they have come to the elders of Israel to seek their temple blessings? I think not. The Lord raised them up, sanctioned their work, and proclaimed them “wise men.” Moreover, a president of the Church declared them to be the “best spirits the God of heaven could find on the face of the earth,” and testified that they were “choice spirits” and “inspired of the Lord.” 3

The temple work for the fifty-six signers of the Declaration of Independence and other Founding Fathers has been done. All these appeared to Wilford Woodruff when he was President of the St. George Temple. President George Washington was ordained a high priest at that time. You will also be interested to know that according to Wilford Woodruff’s journal, John Wesley, Benjamin Franklin, and Christopher Columbus were also ordained high priests at that time. When one casts doubt about the character of these noble sons of God, I believe he or she will have to answer to the God of heaven for it."

I was present in person on one occasion when ETB spoke of his trip to the vault (not in General Conference--it was a much smaller group). He became visibly choked up speaking of it. I couldn't remember which President it was that sent him there, so I'm glad you posted this.

gardenerof12 wrote:I have learned about Christopher Columbus from Glenn Kimber (Cleon Skousen's son-in-law) and Nephi (1 Nephi 13:12) Glenn teaches that Nephi was visited by Moroni (JD talk from General Conference in 1850's; Moroni is America's guardian angel) Columbus was hesitant to discuss this openly-- Joan of Arc was not that much earlier than Columbus and she was put to death for saying she heard voices. Columbus knew he would find a remnant of Israel. The interpreters he took with him were Hebrew. He prayed. His crew was going to mutiny, Columbus said three more days and we will turn back. It was on the last night that land was spotted. Columbus knew, and talked about being led by the hand of God. History has made him evil.

I admit I am not well read on the life and adventures of Christopher Columbus, but I have read a few books on the man. Historically speaking, it seems very hard to deny the fact (and there are many testimonies from journals, records, personal accounts, logs, prints, etc) that Columbus exported the Tanto women as sex slaves, killed and enslaved the local people. Used the "indians" to find gold, and when demands were not met, had them killed. I'm not trying to be negative or a contrarian to the beautiful testimony of the prophet, but I just can't see how Columbus is seen as someone other than a vindictive conqueror. You might know more on the subject, what other things did Glenn Kimber say on this man. I am familiar with the story you have mentioned about Columbus, and I always thought it very moving, and I think it is wonderful, but what about the rest of his life? It seems terribly condemning.

Do you believe the Prophet? Or don't you? It's that simple to me.

Etosha wrote:Do you believe the Prophet? Or don't you? It's that simple to me.

I understand what you are saying.

Cool, thanks for sharing Mouse. I have heard about this story a long time ago, it's nice to read more about it.

I think some of the stories have been changed over the many years. Some of the things Brother Kimber said were, he accepted a tithing from the native people, which has grown now to stealing from them. He did take volunteers to Europe to introduce them to the officials, and that has morphed into kidnapping. I think Columbus, himself, did not do those things history has attributed to him, things that, maybe, others who followed him did, indeed, do.

Read this article in the Ensign from Oct 1992. Note the visions that Columbus had (which parallel in some aspects D&C 122).

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/10/colum ... d?lang=eng


Also be aware that at least about 1915-1930's, John D. Rockefeller and his foundation began approaching prominent historians in attempts to rewrite history, portraying great men and women from America's past as not great but rather human - emphasizing their faults instead of their virtues - in the end painting them to be corrupt.

Those prominent historians refused.

So the Rockefeller people approached history grad students to rewrite history in exchange for having their schooling paid. The grad students jumped all over it. I believe Arthur Schlessinger Jr. was one of them.

It took awhile to get this produced and then for the time to introduce these rewrites to the public.

Glen Kimber talks about being in school in the mid 1950's and the history teacher proudly declaring they no longer are going to teach about American history, but will instead focus on America's problems....

And that is how it has been ever since...

I spent a semester at college studying Columbus. Both the history and historiography (what historians have written about an individual or event as time has passed) Here's the problem with Columbus. Originally he was too venerated. We gave him a holiday, named parks, schools, cities, hell even our nation's capital after the man. His misdeeds were swept under the rug and hidden as a dirty secret. Then we had JFK's assassination, Vietnam, and Nixon being an idiot. Suddenly trust in the Government and the official story burst. But rather than really search for truth many academics instead set out to discredit the old guard. So we ended up with a view that was not neutral but just skewed totally the other direction. Washington, Jefferson, and Columbus were scumbags. And Arnold, Rasputin and other villains were just doing the best they new how. The truth lies some where in the middle. All historical figures are just people. When we try to elevate thier status to something more we end up with this eventual backlash.

So was Columbus a perfect man? No. Was he a personification of evil? No. But he was a man who was deeply spiritual and honestly believed he was being led by the spirit. Is there some good evidence that he was led away by pride and foolish ambitions? Sure. But didn't Joseph Smith struggle with the same temptations after he had actually, with his mortal eyes, seen the Father and the Son?

So do I feel like we should venerate him like he has been venerated? Probably not. But do I think he deserves to be on a list with some of the most evil men in the history of the world? Absolutely not.

My two cents. Take it or leave it.

HeirofNumenor wrote:Read this article in the Ensign from Oct 1992. Note the visions that Columbus had (which parallel in some aspects D&C 122).

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/10/colum ... d?lang=eng


Also be aware that at least about 1915-1930's, John D. Rockefeller and his foundation began approaching prominent historians in attempts to rewrite history, portraying great men and women from America's past as not great but rather human - emphasizing their faults instead of their virtues - in the end painting them to be corrupt.

Those prominent historians refused.

So the Rockefeller people approached history grad students to rewrite history in exchange for having their schooling paid. The grad students jumped all over it. I believe Arthur Schlessinger Jr. was one of them.

It took awhile to get this produced and then for the time to introduce these rewrites to the public.

Glen Kimber talks about being in school in the mid 1950's and the history teacher proudly declaring they no longer are going to teach about American history, but will instead focus on America's problems....

And that is how it has been ever since...

This has helped me tremendously, thank you! I heard something a long time ago about this, but never explored it. Very interesting, awesome post! :ymapplause:

mgsbigdog wrote:I spent a semester at college studying Columbus. Both the history and historiography (what historians have written about an individual or event as time has passed) Here's the problem with Columbus. Originally he was too venerated. We gave him a holiday, named parks, schools, cities, hell even our nation's capital after the man. His misdeeds were swept under the rug and hidden as a dirty secret. Then we had JFK's assassination, Vietnam, and Nixon being an idiot. Suddenly trust in the Government and the official story burst. But rather than really search for truth many academics instead set out to discredit the old guard. So we ended up with a view that was not neutral but just skewed totally the other direction. Washington, Jefferson, and Columbus were scumbags. And Arnold, Rasputin and other villains were just doing the best they new how. The truth lies some where in the middle. All historical figures are just people. When we try to elevate thier status to something more we end up with this eventual backlash.

So was Columbus a perfect man? No. Was he a personification of evil? No. But he was a man who was deeply spiritual and honestly believed he was being led by the spirit. Is there some good evidence that he was led away by pride and foolish ambitions? Sure. But didn't Joseph Smith struggle with the same temptations after he had actually, with his mortal eyes, seen the Father and the Son?

So do I feel like we should venerate him like he has been venerated? Probably not. But do I think he deserves to be on a list with some of the most evil men in the history of the world? Absolutely not.

My two cents. Take it or leave it.

I'll take it. Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. Your comments have been very helpful to me.

Keep something else in mind:

When the temple work is done for a man who died without the Gospel...he is normally ordained as an Elder, prior to have the Endowment performed for his name.

Yet only 4 men were ever posthumously ordained High Priests - by Wilford Woodruff's instructions. If I am right, they all appeared to him in the St George Temple, along with George Washington and the signers of the Declaration of Independence (including Thomas Jefferson, the so-called adulterer).

The four ordained as High Priests?

George Washington
Benjamin Franklin
John Wesley (founder of Methodist Church)
Christopher Columbus

Sometimes it is listed as FIVE, with Admiral Lord Horatio Nelson Royal Navy hero of Trafalgar... but this is likely a clerk's error, as Nelson wasn't of the same caliber as the other four men.

It has been said that the Lord won't let perverts - or otherwise wicked men enter His temple - and while we can lie on our temple recommends and enter unworthily, I doubt that a spirit of a deceased person could sneak into the Temple and cross the veil to appear to an apostle (or anyone) if he was not given permission by God to do so. Thus, Washington, Franklin, Columbus, and Jefferson are cleared of the charges laid against them by those who seek to discredit them - be it nowadays, or in their own lifetimes...

D&C 138:57, I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58, The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

It's amazing to me how often the word "repentance is left out of this type of discussion!

bobhenstra wrote:D&C 138:57, I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58, The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

It's amazing to me how often the word "repentance is left out of this type of discussion!

Great point.

mgsbigdog wrote:I spent a semester at college studying Columbus. Both the history and historiography (what historians have written about an individual or event as time has passed) Here's the problem with Columbus. Originally he was too venerated. We gave him a holiday, named parks, schools, cities, hell even our nation's capital after the man. His misdeeds were swept under the rug and hidden as a dirty secret. Then we had JFK's assassination, Vietnam, and Nixon being an idiot. Suddenly trust in the Government and the official story burst. But rather than really search for truth many academics instead set out to discredit the old guard. So we ended up with a view that was not neutral but just skewed totally the other direction. Washington, Jefferson, and Columbus were scumbags. And Arnold, Rasputin and other villains were just doing the best they new how. The truth lies some where in the middle. All historical figures are just people. When we try to elevate thier status to something more we end up with this eventual backlash.

So was Columbus a perfect man? No. Was he a personification of evil? No. But he was a man who was deeply spiritual and honestly believed he was being led by the spirit. Is there some good evidence that he was led away by pride and foolish ambitions? Sure. But didn't Joseph Smith struggle with the same temptations after he had actually, with his mortal eyes, seen the Father and the Son?

So do I feel like we should venerate him like he has been venerated? Probably not. But do I think he deserves to be on a list with some of the most evil men in the history of the world? Absolutely not.

My two cents. Take it or leave it.

EXCELLENT analysis. Spot on.

Columbus was not genovese, from Genova, but genovese as an eufemism for "jew", most probably a converted jew (a cristiano nuevo, or neophite). He actually wrote thirty words in genovese, most of them mispelled and with serious grammatical errors. Half of the crew were numbered also as Genovese, but had pretty solid spanish names.
.
Columbus did not discover America. Everyone and their neighbour knew America was there. He was instrumental in leading the spaniards away from going by sea to India telling them that the portuguese had found an easier way through the West. And so it came to pass that the american indians were named by a spy, most certainly a jewish spy, sent to fool the spaniards. He wrote perfect portuguese, spanish with lusisms (errors in spanish ortography that can only be commited by a native portuguese writer) and erred in just about every other language he tried.
.
By the way, Columbus name was probably Álvaro Guerra, but that is still a frame of contention.

The is church is organized on the other side of the veil, those men mentioned weren't in the temple without properly signed recommends. Something I've wondered about is their wives, was their temple work also done at the same time? I have found nothing suggesting so!

bobhenstra wrote:The is church is organized on the other side of the veil, those men mentioned weren't in the temple without properly signed recommends. Something I've wondered about is their wives, was their temple work also done at the same time? I have found nothing suggesting so!

Vicki Jo Anderson wrote a book called - "The Other Eminent Men of Wilford Woodruff". About the 50 other men mentioned that Pres. Woodruff ordered their work to be done (in addition to that of the Signers and Pres. Washington). He also mentioned "and for a number of women" - which list of about 70 she included.

Sis. Anderson had plans to write a follow up book called "Eminent Women", many of whom where the wives of the Eminent Men.

http://deseretbook.com/Other-Eminent-Me ... /i/4087754

Good list here:
http://www.josephsmithacademy.org/wiki/ ... -woodruff/
And here:
http://www.ldsmag.com/article/1/9216

Thank you, I appreciate that information! Jo and I once had a long discussion about the women, I didn't know then where to look!

Now, she knows them all!

Bob

bobhenstra wrote:D&C 138:57, I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58, The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

It's amazing to me how often the word "repentance is left out of this type of discussion!

This is my favorite post in this thread. Whatever horrible things Columbus did to the Native Americans shouldn't be a stumbling block to anybody regarding his appearance in the temple. If you believe the words of the prophets that he really was there, then you know that the atoning blood of our Savior was applied to him through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. If I may share a personal experience that happened just a few weeks ago:

My wife is a full-blood Native American and has been very busy with her family history work. It is hard sometimes because her tribe (Kuna) doesn't record genealogy in written form, but rather in verbal form. I imagine that lots of Native American tribes are similar. Through much prayer and searching, a miracle happened. A man (she still doesn't know who he is, except that he is a distant relative) came to her doorstep one day and handed her a 2 page document listing all of her ancestors up to 1800!!! (This is near impossible for most Kuna because it is almost impossible for them to find any info on ancestors preceding the migration of the tribe from Colombia to Panama that took place roughly 200 years ago). One of these ancestors is widely known for practicing witchcraft. He is known for being a "bad witch," or in other words, he used Satan's power to harm others. When I went to the temple with my wife to be sealed for this man I was overcome with the Spirit and felt his presence in the sealing room with us. I looked toward where I felt he was (standing in the air above and to the left of the sealer) and felt that he was very happy and that he was smiling. I know that this man is a righteous soul despite what he did in this world.

We cannot judge others based on the knowledge that we possess, we simply are not in the position to judge others. When the veil is lifted from us, we will be very surprised when we see "The Big Picture." For now, I am ok with the fact that I know almost nothing compared to what God knows. We must be careful when judging others, even if they have left this mortal state for several hundred years. They are just as real today as any of us.

God will forgive whom He will, but unto us is given a commandment to forgive all men.

Nice post that.