LDS Freedom Forum

It was not about so much about mercy, but recognizing the practical reality of the situation....and mercy not robbing justice really only applies to the justice of God... govt can do whatever the heck it wants (though in the end God will deal with them) - or whatever it can get away with.

Crying "mercy cannot rob justice" over this is spitting in the wind - if you are appealing to God for justice, then this issue actually takes a back seat to other grosser crimes by the PTB (CIA/MI-6/Mossad flooding the world with narcotics; causing wars via false-flag (9/11, Gulf of Tonkin) or other methods; abortion on demand, promoting homosexuality, pornography and human and/or sex trafficking (sexual or domestic slavery); assassinations; bombings; enslaving all nations by controlling the money supply and forcing all to drown in debt; pushing manufacturing and other industries off-shore so as to hinder people from providing for themselves (even if those in poorer countries gain employment and income); etc.).

Again my personal preference is to place the US Army along the border (get them out of the Mid-East), and build a massive Berlin Wall (minus minefields and maybe electrified fences) - but we do not have the political will to do THAT (to stop the flow), let alone find a workable solution to some 12 million people already here. And forcibly detaining them is not a workable solution.

HeirofNumenor wrote:It was not about so much about mercy, but recognizing the practical reality of the situation....and mercy not robbing justice really only applies to the justice of God... govt can do whatever the heck it wants (though in the end God will deal with them) - or whatever it can get away with.

Crying "mercy cannot rob justice" over this is spitting in the wind - if you are appealing to God for justice, then this issue actually takes a back seat to other grosser crimes by the PTB (CIA/MI-6/Mossad flooding the world with narcotics; causing wars via false-flag (9/11, Gulf of Tonkin) or other methods; abortion on demand, promoting homosexuality, pornography and human and/or sex trafficking (sexual or domestic slavery); assassinations; bombings; enslaving all nations by controlling the money supply and forcing all to drown in debt; pushing manufacturing and other industries off-shore so as to hinder people from providing for themselves (even if those in poorer countries gain employment and income); etc.).

Again my personal preference is to place the US Army along the border (get them out of the Mid-East), and build a massive Berlin Wall (minus minefields and maybe electrified fences) - but we do not have the political will to do THAT (to stop the flow), let alone find a workable solution to some 12 million people already here. And forcibly detaining them is not a workable solution.

One must remember that there are drug cartels along the border and into some counties of Arizona, so just putting the army down there isn't quite enough of a deterrent. The cartels would have to be eliminated, or driven deeper into Mexico. I fear there would have to be much bloodshed to accomplish this. But not impossible.

Quit forcibly taking property of citizens to award the illegal aliens, and most of them will deport themselves.

It will never happen, though. So instead we get to debate all the approaches that will never work. Fun fun.

jbalm wrote:Quit forcibly taking property of citizens to award the illegal aliens, and most of them will deport themselves.

It will never happen, though. So instead we get to debate all the approaches that will never work. Fun fun.

It releases frustration jbalm!

bbrown wrote:I imagine the Philistines, or the people of Jericho thought the same thing when the children of Israel came in to their land and wiped them out. God would never allow this!! These people are evil.
If the laws are unjust is God bound to honor them? Why was it ok in the 1800's for huge waves of Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc come to the US unchecked but all of a sudden it is horrible and evil for the Mexicans, and central Americans to come??? There should be rules to keep out as much of the bad element as possible, but it should be easy and accessable for anyone who is not a criminal.

Couldn't have said better myself... I agree there plenty of bad people coming in, I agree we should secure the borders for our protection and theirs ( the ones that die trying to get here, good people).... but I know because I have been touched by the Holy Ghost plenty of times when I hear how some people have arrived here ( U.S. soil), and now those people are upstanding citizens that pay taxes, abide by our laws, have joined the church, have sent their children on missions, etc.

Andrew52 wrote:

SmallFarm wrote:

bbrown wrote:I imagine the Philistines, or the people of Jericho thought the same thing when the children of Israel came in to their land and wiped them out. God would never allow this!! These people are evil.
If the laws are unjust is God bound to honor them? Why was it ok in the 1800's for huge waves of Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc come to the US unchecked but all of a sudden it is horrible and evil for the Mexicans, and central Americans to come??? There should be rules to keep out as much of the bad element as possible, but it should be easy and accessable for anyone who is not a criminal.

Don't new 18 year-olds vote democratic? Deport them ALL! :ymdevil:

Wait, aren't 18 yr olds citizens? Your reasoning ability is remarkable! )

Because they clearly earned the "right", right? 8-|

bbrown wrote:Z I happen to mostly agree with you on this. I have met very few Mexican people who were not very nice people. I have run in to a few idiots, but there are plenty of white, black asian etc idiots too. I think 2 big issues are mixed here If the decent people were allowed to get here legally, in a relatively easy manor the black market side of immigration would largely go away, then there are the drug runners who are a completely different problem and would not be so mixed up with the decent people.
As to your wishing some of these anti-immigration people could experience this, it reminded me of my sister. She is not anti immigration, but has kind of been put in the shoes of a Hispanic. She is blonde haired blue eyed of northern European decent, her husband is of Spanish decent with a Spanish name. She says since getting married it is much harder to get a job even though she is very qualified. She once turned in some 10 applications, her friend (with an English name)about 6. Some to the same places. The friend got 4 calls my sister 0 even though she was better qualified. It does give an interesting perspective on how volatile this issue is, and the preconcieved notions many have just looking at a name.
I'm afraid this issue has gotten to the point that only the Lord can straighten it out and that may not be pretty for anyone.

I agree with you 100% it is sad to see this happen. When I go to a local business or even the doctor and I happen to be speaking in Spanish to my mother, wife etc. the treatment in get is quiet a bit different than when I speak English from the get go.... I agree only The Lord will straighten this out...

Andrew52 wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:

Zkulptor wrote:If more Mormons understood the prophecies instead of acting like they "own" the land then they'd understand God brings most of these people here for a reason obviously not understood by many LDS.. believe it...

I don't believe for one moment that God has anything to do with illegal immigrants coming into this land by lying, cheating and dishonesty. God does not support evil, and for anyone that thinks he does has far more to learn than those poor immigrants that have all these rights to American lifestyle, coupled with underhanded ways of getting benefits. GOD DOES NOT SUPPORT WRONG DOING, PERIOD. Nor does he bring people into this country via evil methods. That would make him a liar, and not God.

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

I find your lack of charity disturbing....your forefathers themselves where illegal aliens, that took this land by "force" from my forefathers...if we were to apply the same point of view as the one you mentioned above... obviously that was not the case....God brought them here... same story only different peoples.... maybe even different purpose..who knows....

jbalm wrote:Quit forcibly taking property of citizens to award the illegal aliens, and most of them will deport themselves.

It will never happen, though. So instead we get to debate all the approaches that will never work. Fun fun.

That is a very naive way of seeing it...you cannot force 18million people (if not more) to deport themselves like Romney naively believed... these people WILL keep coming here unless the Government gets off its butt and sends the Army down there....and even with that Cartels will find a way to dig tunnels ...trust me... and you know why? because I know of MANY border patrol officers that turn a blind eye, the U.S. is VERY aware of this, but the questions is why? why would they possible keep allowing this?

I note that there are Americans, including many Mormons, who believe that righteousness and charity include supporting initiatives, programs and legislation that force others to involuntarily contribute to the welfare of others, including illegal immigrants.

Wouldn't it be "righteous" of me to charter a cruise ship, or more realistically and old WW2 troop ship, and sail to Ireland and invited all my unemployed relatives and their unemployed friends and their unemployed friends' friends to come aboard and sail to Boston and/or New York where they would be welcomed by all the Irish already there ? Wouldn't that be morally wonderful of me ?

freedomfighter wrote:
Even cavemen knew better than to believe such nonsense such as God bringing illegals into this country by means of dishonesty, etc.

You maybe right, it might take a Caveman not to have any charity whatsoever , I am beginning to see how cavemen think

lundbaek wrote:I note that there are Americans, including many Mormons, who believe that righteousness and charity include supporting initiatives, programs and legislation that force others to involuntarily contribute to the welfare of others, including illegal immigrants.

Wouldn't it be "righteous" of me to charter a cruise ship, or more realistically and old WW2 troop ship, and sail to Ireland and invited all my unemployed relatives and their unemployed friends and their unemployed friends' friends to come aboard and sail to Boston and/or New York where they would be welcomed by all the Irish already there ? Wouldn't that be morally wonderful of me ?

Yeah, thing is you are not God nor can you understand his wisdom yet...

lundbaek wrote:I note that there are Americans, including many Mormons, who believe that righteousness and charity include supporting initiatives, programs and legislation that force others to involuntarily contribute to the welfare of others, including illegal immigrants.

Wouldn't it be "righteous" of me to charter a cruise ship, or more realistically and old WW2 troop ship, and sail to Ireland and invited all my unemployed relatives and their unemployed friends and their unemployed friends' friends to come aboard and sail to Boston and/or New York where they would be welcomed by all the Irish already there ? Wouldn't that be morally wonderful of me ?

If they didn't have socialism there, they should welcome you. Many hands make light work.

Apparently some people cannot distinguish between selfless charity and legalized plunder.

jeanpierre wrote:Apparently some people cannot distinguish between selfless charity and legalized plunder.

Right, what can I say ?under the context in which I am being judged I am an anchor baby... sub-human even...not worthy of any charity, yay!

The problem is that we have collectively accepted socialism. If we did away with the socialism would there still be a problem with the incoming people? The criminal element (cartels, coyotes, murderers etc) are another issue, but we have also accepted them. We keep putting the same criminals in our government that allow, even encourage the real criminals (I don't believe immigrating is a crime despite the "law")from there to have free reign here. This isn't an issue of the people themselves but of our wickedness, our socialism etc.

bbrown wrote:The problem is that we have collectively accepted socialism. If we did away with the socialism would there still be a problem with the incoming people? The criminal element (cartels, coyotes, murderers etc) are another issue, but we have also accepted them. We keep putting the same criminals in our government that allow, even encourage the real criminals (I don't believe immigrating is a crime despite the "law")from there to have free reign here. This isn't an issue of the people themselves but of our wickedness, our socialism etc.

We should welcome more producers. Each person has two hands and only one mouth (by which I mean every person can produce more than they consume).
The BIG problem isn't immigration, it's CONSUMERISM.

The BIG problem isn't immigration, it's CONSUMERISM.

Please expound on this thought....

HeirofNumenor wrote:

The BIG problem isn't immigration, it's CONSUMERISM.

Please expound on this thought....

if we were a society focused on production instead of convenience, we could let whoever wanted to come here (granted they follow our just laws), and the more workers the more food. Enough and to spare.

SmallFarm wrote:

HeirofNumenor wrote:

The BIG problem isn't immigration, it's CONSUMERISM.

Please expound on this thought....

if we were a society focused on production instead of convenience, we could let whoever wanted to come here (granted they follow our just laws), and the more workers the more food. Enough and to spare.

Its not that easy.
http://www.FrostyWooldridge.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What about the horrific impact of adding 2.4 million immigrants to the USA annually. The average immigrant causes an immediate 10 times more negative impact to as high as 30 times more impact on our delicate environment. Each immigrant overloads our water supplies.

Sixty years from now, if not stopped, future journalists will write stories about desperate Americans scratching out a living in a country gasping for its life under the load of 600 million people. We can no longer afford mass immigration into America if we expect a viable and sustainable civilization.

As it stands today, we face enormous problems beyond most peoples’ comprehension.
The U.S. can't sustain illegal aliens; it can barely sustain its own citizens.

Zkulptor wrote:

Andrew52 wrote:

Zkulptor wrote:If more Mormons understood the prophecies instead of acting like they "own" the land then they'd understand God brings most of these people here for a reason obviously not understood by many LDS.. believe it...

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

I find your lack of charity disturbing....your forefathers themselves where illegal aliens, that took this land by "force" from my forefathers...if we were to apply the same point of view as the one you mentioned above... obviously that was not the case....God brought them here... same story only different peoples.... maybe even different purpose..who knows....

I don't think immigrants from yesteryear were looking to get free benees from our government, payed for by the citizenry. That's the difference. Didn't they learn to assimilate into society? Didn't they work for a living instead of seeking welfare? Didn't they earn what they got in life? Did they force the rest of the populace to dial 1 to proceed in English?

The Lord has told us there is enough and to spare. Consider the lilies....

Isn't this about right!

Andrew52 wrote:Isn't this about right!

Riiight every Latino immigrant is a freeloading jerk , sureee

Zkulptor wrote:

Andrew52 wrote:Isn't this about right!

Riiight every Latino immigrant is a freeloading jerk , sureee

Mis-interpretation..