LDS Freedom Forum

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So we got off on the wrong foot from the get go and have gotten into our "awful situation" thru our neglect of His advice. In my own mind I can trace our awful immigration situation back to that neglect.

or through Ted Kennedy and the immigration reforms of the mid 1960's....

and of course the 60's got totally screwed up almost immediately after the USSC kicked both God and the Bible out of public schools...

Andrew52 wrote:

SmallFarm wrote:Question: Who owns the united states of America? :-\

Question: Who pays taxes in The United States of America?

The middle class. The rich can avoid taxes and the poor don't pay taxes.

In fact a perfect illustration of this is how the big box stores work. They pay so little that their employees often qualify for various government assistance programs. They also contract out to Chinese factories to manufacture their items so they can undercut middle-class shop owners, thus destroying their ability to be self-sufficient. Not so good for the middle class.

Also, you have the business interests who just want cheap labor putting pressure on the GOP to push for easier immigration and the liberals in the Democratic Party who want more voters. Remember when California used to vote Republican? Texas will soon also be a safe Democratic stronghold. It's demographics. As for the Mormon and Catholic Church, they have an interest in upping their numbers in the USA so of course they are going to tilt towards the liberal side in regards to immigration. That is not to bash either, but can this be denied?

Imagine how the Native Americans felt when the Pilgrims invaded their lands.



We Americans are so short sighted it is laughable

Vision wrote:Imagine how the Native Americans felt when the Pilgrims invaded their lands.



We Americans are so short sighted it is laughable

That is exactly what everyone in Latin America feels about Gringo America. But it isn't the Gringo's fault. That blame is put squarely on the Gringo Media.

The US and Mexican governments entice illegal immigrants to enter this country and to work illegally for profit-hungry U.S. employers.

Undocumented workers give billions annually to social security. Since illegal immigrant workers are here illegally, and give fake ID to the US employer, they never receive any of the money back.

The federal government is anxious to receive votes from business owners and the Hispanic community...thus, willing to under-enforce borders and immigrations laws, and ignore illegal hiring by employers.
Some people who support illegal immigrants living in America believe that they contribute to the economy of America by paying taxes. In reality, what illegal immigrants receive in benefits immensely exceeds what they are paying in taxes.

$397 billion dollars have been paid to families containing illegal immigrants through social services since 1996. Most of the money goes to schooling for U.S. citizens and for children.
Sex offenders comprised 2% of illegals who have been arrested. Nearly one million sex crimes were committed by illegal immigrants in the United States, in the seven years 1999-2006. Each sex offender averaged 4 victims.
California spent more than 11 billion dollars per year on illegal immigrants. California is seeking the federal government to bail them out of their financial deficit.

2010 Statistics

Data compilled from Federal Bureau of Investigation and Department of Homeland Security reports indicate:
83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.
86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.
75% of those on the most wanted list in Los Angeles , Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.
24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals
40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals
48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals
29% (630,000) convicted illegal alien felons fill our state and Federal prisons at a cost of $1.6 billion annually
53% plus of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.
50% plus of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens
71% plus of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California were stolen by Illegal aliens or "transport coyotes".
47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal aliens.
63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance and no registration for

the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal aliens
66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance and no registration for

the vehicle. Of that 66% 98% are illegal aliens.
380,000 plus "anchor babies" were born in the US to illegal alien parents in just one year, making 380,000 babies automatically US citizens.
97.2% of all costs incurred from those illegal births were paid by the American taxpayers.



"The blessings of the [LDS] Church are available to anyone who qualifies for and accepts the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Federal law allows undocumented persons to provide volunteer church service, including missionary service, within the United States,” said Church spokesman Scott Trotter.

Andrew52 wrote:The US and Mexican governments entice illegal immigrants to enter this country and to work illegally for profit-hungry U.S. employers.

Undocumented workers give billions annually to social security. Since illegal immigrant workers are here illegally, and give fake ID to the US employer, they never receive any of the money back.

The federal government is anxious to receive votes from business owners and the Hispanic community...thus, willing to under-enforce borders and immigrations laws, and ignore illegal hiring by employers.
Some people who support illegal immigrants living in America believe that they contribute to the economy of America by paying taxes. In reality, what illegal immigrants receive in benefits immensely exceeds what they are paying in taxes.

$397 billion dollars have been paid to families containing illegal immigrants through social services since 1996. Most of the money goes to schooling for U.S. citizens and for children.
Sex offenders comprised 2% of illegals who have been arrested. Nearly one million sex crimes were committed by illegal immigrants in the United States, in the seven years 1999-2006. Each sex offender averaged 4 victims.
California spent more than 11 billion dollars per year on illegal immigrants. California is seeking the federal government to bail them out of their financial deficit.

2010 Statistics

Data compilled from Federal Bureau of Investigation and Department of Homeland Security reports indicate:
83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.
86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.
75% of those on the most wanted list in Los Angeles , Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.
24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals
40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals
48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals
29% (630,000) convicted illegal alien felons fill our state and Federal prisons at a cost of $1.6 billion annually
53% plus of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.
50% plus of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens
71% plus of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California were stolen by Illegal aliens or "transport coyotes".
47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal aliens.
63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance and no registration for

the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal aliens
66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance and no registration for

the vehicle. Of that 66% 98% are illegal aliens.
380,000 plus "anchor babies" were born in the US to illegal alien parents in just one year, making 380,000 babies automatically US citizens.
97.2% of all costs incurred from those illegal births were paid by the American taxpayers.



"The blessings of the [LDS] Church are available to anyone who qualifies for and accepts the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Federal law allows undocumented persons to provide volunteer church service, including missionary service, within the United States,” said Church spokesman Scott Trotter.

Typical neo-con turning to scare tactics. I'm more afraid of displeasing my Lord because:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

I guess no one told Moroni (Captain), that the Lamanites had the right to move in and oust the Nephites from their land.

God gave us the Constitution, and the Constitution allows the Congress to set laws concerning naturalization (according to the Supreme Court), see:

http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#immigration

The Constitution never uses the word immigration, so how is it that the rules for immigrants, and quotas for countries, are set by the federal government and not by the state governments? After all, as the 10th Amendment states, are the powers not delegated to the United States held by the states, or the people?

The Supreme Court has ruled that the Congressional power to regulate naturalization, from Article 1, Section 8, includes the power to regulate immigration (see, for example, Hampton v. Mow Sun Wong, 426 U.S. 88 [1976]). It would not make sense to allow Congress to pass laws to determine how an immigrant becomes a naturalized resident if the Congress cannot determine how, or even if, that immigrant can come into the country in the first place. Just because the Constitution lacks the word immigration does not mean that it lacks the concept of immigration.

There is also an argument that immigration is an implied power of any sovereign nation, and as such, the federal government has the power to regulate immigration because the United States is a sovereign nation. While it is true that the United States is a sovereign nation, and it may be true that all sovereign nations have some powers inherent in that status, it is not necessary to determine if immigration is such a power that does not even require constitutional mention, because the Naturalization Clause handles the power.

In any event, Jesus said:

John 10:
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

I agree in taking in the tired and huddled masses (Jershon style, where they become numbered as one of the people, obeying OUR laws, giving up their former traditions), what I don't agree with is thieves breaking in the windows, stealing the already stolen socialist coffers, and then claiming special privileges.

jdawg1012 wrote:I guess no one told Moroni (Captain), that the Lamanites had the right to move in and oust the Nephites from their land.

God gave us the Constitution, and the Constitution allows the Congress to set laws concerning naturalization (according to the Supreme Court), see:

http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#immigration

The Constitution never uses the word immigration, so how is it that the rules for immigrants, and quotas for countries, are set by the federal government and not by the state governments? After all, as the 10th Amendment states, are the powers not delegated to the United States held by the states, or the people?

The Supreme Court has ruled that the Congressional power to regulate naturalization, from Article 1, Section 8, includes the power to regulate immigration (see, for example, Hampton v. Mow Sun Wong, 426 U.S. 88 [1976]). It would not make sense to allow Congress to pass laws to determine how an immigrant becomes a naturalized resident if the Congress cannot determine how, or even if, that immigrant can come into the country in the first place. Just because the Constitution lacks the word immigration does not mean that it lacks the concept of immigration.

There is also an argument that immigration is an implied power of any sovereign nation, and as such, the federal government has the power to regulate immigration because the United States is a sovereign nation. While it is true that the United States is a sovereign nation, and it may be true that all sovereign nations have some powers inherent in that status, it is not necessary to determine if immigration is such a power that does not even require constitutional mention, because the Naturalization Clause handles the power.

In any event, Jesus said:

John 10:
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

I agree in taking in the tired and huddled masses (Jershon style, where they become numbered as one of the people, obeying OUR laws, giving up their former traditions), what I don't agree with is thieves breaking in the windows, stealing the already stolen socialist coffers, and then claiming special privileges.

The problem is, we don't let the poor huddled masses in anymore, only those wealthy enough to afford it.

SmallFarm wrote:The problem is, we don't let the poor huddled masses in anymore, only those wealthy enough to afford it.

Last I checked, two wrongs didn't make a right. There's a number of things wrong in this country, and giving handouts to thieves and robbers who sneak in by the windows, don't solve any of them.

I don't believe paying taxes gives us rights, but illegal immigrants usually either work under the table, never file (and claim the maximum number of dependents on their W-2's), or (at least used to) fraudulently file all kinds of kids to get extra benefits. Largely the "social welfare" payments are just handed out like candy now.

Take away all social welfare benefits (unconstitutional anyway), and remove the diabolical income tax in favor of a user fee based tax, or at least a consumption tax, and they'll flee right back to where they came from (or somewhere else foolish enough to rob it's people and pay foreigners).

They're following the money, not looking for freedom. The same thing happens in the wealthy Latin American nations, the poorer socialist countries flood into the more wealthy socialist countries illegally. The only reason the U.S. is doing this is because the socialsts see a whole new voting block into perpetuity. There's nothing new under the sun.

jdawg1012 wrote:

SmallFarm wrote:The problem is, we don't let the poor huddled masses in anymore, only those wealthy enough to afford it.

Last I checked, two wrongs didn't make a right. There's a number of things wrong in this country, and giving handouts to thieves and robbers who sneak in by the windows, don't solve any of them.

I don't believe paying taxes gives us rights, but illegal immigrants usually either work under the table, never file (and claim the maximum number of dependents on their W-2's), or (at least used to) fraudulently file all kinds of kids to get extra benefits. Largely the "social welfare" payments are just handed out like candy now.

Take away all social welfare benefits (unconstitutional anyway), and remove the diabolical income tax in favor of a user fee based tax, or at least a consumption tax, and they'll flee right back to where they came from (or somewhere else foolish enough to rob it's people and pay foreigners).

They're following the money, not looking for freedom. The same thing happens in the wealthy Latin American nations, the poorer socialist countries flood into the more wealthy socialist countries illegally. The only reason the U.S. is doing this is because the socialsts see a whole new voting block into perpetuity. There's nothing new under the sun.

You see thieves coming in the back door. I see my brothers and sisters dying in the desert.
You're right two wrongs don't make a right. The wrong of socialism in this country is no excuse for the wrong of denying people who are innocent of any crimes here in this country to come and join in the work of reaping the goodness from this blessed land.

SmallFarm wrote:You see thieves coming in the back door. I see my brothers and sisters dying in the desert.
You're right two wrongs don't make a right. The wrong of socialism in this country is no excuse for the wrong of denying people who are innocent of any crimes here in this country to come and join in the work of reaping the goodness from this blessed land.

I see my brothers and sisters enslaved. Both the slaves paying for the largesse, and the slaves to mammon that come for the freebies. This "blessed land" extends across the Americas, not just in the United States. The problem with ravaging like locusts, moving from one place to another, is that eventually you run out of places to exploit.

I have no problem with someone coming here legally, or even reforming immigration laws. I do have a problem with people lying, thieving, and exploiting their way into positions of prominence because they didn't change, for the better, the promised land they already lived in.

SmallFarm wrote:

jdawg1012 wrote:

SmallFarm wrote:The problem is, we don't let the poor huddled masses in anymore, only those wealthy enough to afford it.

Last I checked, two wrongs didn't make a right. There's a number of things wrong in this country, and giving handouts to thieves and robbers who sneak in by the windows, don't solve any of them.

I don't believe paying taxes gives us rights, but illegal immigrants usually either work under the table, never file (and claim the maximum number of dependents on their W-2's), or (at least used to) fraudulently file all kinds of kids to get extra benefits. Largely the "social welfare" payments are just handed out like candy now.

Take away all social welfare benefits (unconstitutional anyway), and remove the diabolical income tax in favor of a user fee based tax, or at least a consumption tax, and they'll flee right back to where they came from (or somewhere else foolish enough to rob it's people and pay foreigners).

They're following the money, not looking for freedom. The same thing happens in the wealthy Latin American nations, the poorer socialist countries flood into the more wealthy socialist countries illegally. The only reason the U.S. is doing this is because the socialsts see a whole new voting block into perpetuity. There's nothing new under the sun.

You see thieves coming in the back door. I see my brothers and sisters dying in the desert.
You're right two wrongs don't make a right. The wrong of socialism in this country is no excuse for the wrong of denying people who are innocent of any crimes here in this country to come and join in the work of reaping the goodness from this blessed land.

Innocent of crimes when they come here illegally? Dying in the desert? Polling firms have found that millions of workers in Mexico and other nearby countries say they would move to the U.S. if only it were legal for them to do so. But the vast majority of them have too much respect for the rule of law and have too much respect for their families and for their life itself to take the risk of becoming an illegal alien. So whos fault is it when they walk around in a desert without proper preparation and equipment? They choose to take the risk, until they stop taking the risk some are going to die, it's that simple.

So all this touchy, feely "they're my brothers and sisters" coming here to find work speech, will never solve the problem.

If you want to blame anyone for this situation, here are your three best choices:

1. The government of Mexico. They have government-sponsored staging areas for illegal immigration. They published a crossing guide and give out crossing kits. They even have an illegal immigration radio station. They do everything except bus their excess population to the border. What they should do is mount an extensive public education campaign telling their citizens to respect the U.S.'s laws and warning them of the dangers of the desert. They've done that to a certain extent, but they could do much more.

2. The "humanitarian groups" that put up water stations. These give the false belief that there will be water along the way.

3. The corrupt infrastructure that allows massive illegal immigration, starting with Bush at the top and proceeding down to corrupt corporations, "liberals", and all the rest.

Andrew52 wrote:America is a privilage, not a right. It has to be earned. Applying for work visas or citizenship through proper channels.

Anywhere else in the world, millions of foreign nationals illegally invading a sovereign country is an act of war! A small number of treasonous politicians are betraying the American people. Americans must demand our laws be enforced and our borders secured. We can end illegal immigration forever if we hold our politicians accountable.

But just who has the cajones to enforce the laws? It sure isn't going to be our government. Maybe we ought to put all the militant groups around the country to work, they practice warfare all the time. Maybe they're ichin' for a fight. And wouldn't they like to take on the drug cartels while their at it? To mean anything there would have to be a massive show of force, possessing a dog face intent to win. Our military won't do it. And even if they would, our so-called POTUS would put a stop to it. Says a lot about him, doesn't it? Come to think of it, could he fight his way out of a wet paper bag without demanding help from his socialist buddies?

If our unjust immigration policies cause them to commit the "crime" of coming here "illegally" than yes, they are innocent.

SmallFarm wrote:If our unjust immigration policies cause them to commit the "crime" of coming here "illegally" than yes, they are innocent.

They're not dummies. They simply know how to work the system in their favor. Just like the billions of US dollars going to Mexico every year, because they have found loopholes in the tax laws. Many illegals receive money from the government for children and other family members not residing in the US...to the hefty sum of about 4 billion per year. IMO, That isn't innocents.



See: http://www.wthr.com/story/17798210/tax- ... s-billions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't think that many people would risk life and limb in the desert just for free healthcare and a meal ticket.

SmallFarm wrote:I don't think that many people would risk life and limb in the desert just for free healthcare and a meal ticket.

Whatever!

If more Americans understood that illegal immigration is being deliberately fomented by people intent on destroying the US Constitution and our constitutional republican form of government they would surely resist it more than they do. The Lord established this nation by the hands of brave men and women for a purpose, and I advise all to figure out what that entire purpose is.

lundbaek wrote:If more Americans understood that illegal immigration is being deliberately fomented by people intent on destroying the US Constitution and our constitutional republican form of government they would surely resist it more than they do. The Lord established this nation by the hands of brave men and women for a purpose, and I advise all to figure out what that entire purpose is.

+1 :ymapplause:

I believe the immigrant issue is being fueled to intentionally anger the American populace to keep Americans divided and clueless as to what is really going on.

lundbaek wrote:If more Americans understood that illegal immigration is being deliberately fomented by people intent on destroying the US Constitution and our constitutional republican form of government they would surely resist it more than they do.

Andrew52 wrote: I believe the immigrant issue is being fueled to intentionally anger the American populace to keep Americans divided and clueless as to what is really going on.

If I recall, a heavy influx of illegal immigrants is a good way to split and divide the populace so that there is disunity and chaos, only to weaken loyalty to the US Constitution and make it nothing more than toilet paper.

What if the purpose of fomenting illegal immigration is to get Americans riled up against immigrants, to the point where the UN has to step in and "take action"?

SmallFarm wrote:What if the purpose of fomenting illegal immigration is to get Americans riled up against immigrants, to the point where the UN has to step in and "take action"?

It depends on what you can afford. You're helping to pay for all their benefits. And you're probably paying for your own to some degree. So if you don't mind dishing out money for their pleasure and benefits, don't concern yourself. One Hispanic immigrant received over $29,000 dollars from the government for family members living in Mexico, but claiming they are in America. Multiply this figure many times for other illegal immigrants and see if that doesn't disturb you just a little. And don't think for one moment that people in Mexico don't know what's going on. By word of mouth they learn that America has lots of free money. And since honesty is an outmoded attribute and our government doesn't really care about you except for how much money they can get out of you so they can give it to illegals then just ignore the fact that you're being violated and walk away smiling.

freedomfighter wrote:

SmallFarm wrote:What if the purpose of fomenting illegal immigration is to get Americans riled up against immigrants, to the point where the UN has to step in and "take action"?

It depends on what you can afford. You're helping to pay for all their benefits. And you're probably paying for your own to some degree. So if you don't mind dishing out money for their pleasure and benefits, don't concern yourself. One Hispanic immigrant received over $29,000 dollars from the government for family members living in Mexico, but claiming they are in America. Multiply this figure many times for other illegal immigrants and see if that doesn't disturb you just a little. And don't think for one moment that people in Mexico don't know what's going on. By word of mouth they learn that America has lots of free money. And since honesty is an outmoded attribute and our government doesn't really care about you except for how much money they can get out of you so they can give it to illegals then just ignore the fact that you're being violated and walk away smiling.

There's lots of things that my taxes go to that I like a lot less I'll tell you that.

It is not the immigrants, legal or illegal, that I get angry at. It is the people who are fomenting, encouraging and supporting the illegal immigration. Them I would like to deport off to the other side of the veil.