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Posted: December 19th, 2012, 4:35 pm
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Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 5:37 pm
We believe that God inspired the Founding Fathers with their writing of the Constitution, right? We believe the Constitution to be divine, right? The Constitution (specifically the 2nd amendment) allows for the right to bear arms, right? The Bill of Rights gives us that right, right? Thus, if the church ever attempted to persuade its members to give up their guns to the feds, it would be violating what God wanted, right? Therefore, I conclude that any direction from our church to hand in our guns for whatever reason would be coming from man and not from on high. The Lord knew exactly why the right to bear arms had to be in there and it wasn't for hunting, self-defense or target-practice... it was to prevent government from becoming oppressive, tyrannical and able to force its will on the people without resistance.
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 5:43 pm
It depends on what the Spirit told me to do.
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 5:52 pm
Jules... IMHO, the spirit would never tell anyone to turn in their guns because the government said so or wants them for whatever reason - may as well sign your own death warrant if you comply with any gun confiscation order or hand over all you own to your government.JulesGP wrote:It depends on what the Spirit told me to do.
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 6:05 pm
I'm already in Zion, and armed!
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 6:07 pm
I know, we can see you and your gun in your avatar Bob.bobhenstra wrote:I'm already in Zion, and armed!
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 6:16 pm
Well, regardless, I would follow the spirit. And what I am told by the spirit may be different than what my neighbor is told to do.....Col. Flagg wrote:Jules... IMHO, the spirit would never tell anyone to turn in their guns because the government said so or wants them for whatever reason - may as well sign your own death warrant if you comply with any gun confiscation order or hand over all you own to your government.JulesGP wrote:It depends on what the Spirit told me to do.
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 6:20 pm
You may have a point there, but as a whole, the Lord is not going to ask his people to turn in their guns, especially not to this corrupt and evil federal 'government'. Can you ever imagine the Lord asking any of his B of M prophets who went to battle to turn in their weapons to those oppressing them?JulesGP wrote:Well, regardless, I would follow the spirit. And what I am told by the spirit may be different than what my neighbor is told to do.....Col. Flagg wrote:Jules... IMHO, the spirit would never tell anyone to turn in their guns because the government said so or wants them for whatever reason - may as well sign your own death warrant if you comply with any gun confiscation order or hand over all you own to your government.JulesGP wrote:It depends on what the Spirit told me to do.
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 6:32 pm
Which is why I say the Church is not going to do anything like this, affirmatively or negatively.
The Church is in many countries now. This is no longer an American Church. Unfortunately some US members tend to think that way at times. This is a worldwide Church.
Here in Mexico, this is a non issue, given that not too many people own guns.
The Church is in many countries now. This is no longer an American Church. Unfortunately some US members tend to think that way at times. This is a worldwide Church.
Here in Mexico, this is a non issue, given that not too many people own guns.
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 6:37 pm
I am pretty sure that those who make it to Zion will be without weapons. They will not fight their way there. I believe this from my indepth study of the Book of Isaiah. It talks quite a lot about waiting on the Lord for safety. It also talks about the efforts of men to be in vain.
God will empower a destroyer to destroy the wicked. This destroyer will be invincible and reign over the entire world. There will be no escape from him or fighting him. Only by waiting on the Lord and being patient through the trail will any be saved. God will destroy the destroyer when his work is done and it looks like there is no hope for the righteous. Those that pick up weapons will join the wicked.
God will empower a destroyer to destroy the wicked. This destroyer will be invincible and reign over the entire world. There will be no escape from him or fighting him. Only by waiting on the Lord and being patient through the trail will any be saved. God will destroy the destroyer when his work is done and it looks like there is no hope for the righteous. Those that pick up weapons will join the wicked.
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 6:44 pm
I firstly would follow the Spirit, then any counsel given from the top of the leadership and would always cede to the Spirit over those at the local levels. I see few who are awake at the local levels - most just great administrators and good businessmen - whom are good men, just mostly asleep. Those who are asleep would just advise us to follow our national laws (or presidential edicts.....) just like the asleep leaders did in Germany in the 1930's. Most supported Hitler then. I would have been right in line with Valkyrie....
My concern is that our prez actually tries to get the gun ban shoved thru and is taken out for having done so. That WOULD start CWII in Chicago and all hell would break loose; moreso than if Romney had won..... Times are interesting.
My concern is that our prez actually tries to get the gun ban shoved thru and is taken out for having done so. That WOULD start CWII in Chicago and all hell would break loose; moreso than if Romney had won..... Times are interesting.
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 6:55 pm
I would pray honestly about it, and see if there was any confirmation of the Lord regarding it to be true. However, that would be after I had it confirmed in General Conference first.Scarecrow wrote:Just a thought experiment here (please note I am a gun owner, and as strong a believer of the 2nd amendment as anyone):
We know from prophetic proclamation that the Book of Mormon was written for our times and that it is as "current as the morning paper".
So it is possible (though not very likely) that there could come a time where, like the anti-nephi-lehi's, the Church came out and said that all members of the Church should give up their weapons of war/guns and live a higher law. Perhaps, it would even be one of the qualifications to enter New Jerusalem/Zion, that you leave your weapons of war behind.
D&C 45:68 comes to mind where it is suggested that if you are not willing to make a stand and fight it out with your neighbors, that you will flee to Zion. ("And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.")
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 7:10 pm
Amen Brother!!! I seriously doubt the Church in the United States will be asking members to give up their guns. My bishop here in Zion has more weapons than I do and I think it would be funny to see him give them up.bobhenstra wrote:I'm already in Zion, and armed!
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 7:23 pm
I don't feel that it (ownership of guns) will be a church issue in the sense that "polygamy" was. The real question is whether or not people will side with the false doctrines, false calls to violence, etc. Hunting will be okay, home defense from burgulars in the night will be okay. However, I don't believe in the guns themselves, I am not without a doubt that the Lord can and will work miracles, the real question is whether or not I follow the call to arms of the corrupt, or follow what the Lord's instructions say.samizdat wrote:Which is why I say the Church is not going to do anything like this, affirmatively or negatively.
The Church is in many countries now. This is no longer an American Church. Unfortunately some US members tend to think that way at times. This is a worldwide Church.
Here in Mexico, this is a non issue, given that not too many people own guns.
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 7:28 pm
The Proclamation On The Family states a man's responsibility is to protect his family and provide for the necessities of life...that is not the governments responsibility.
The Church stands against suicide and eugenics... giving your weapons to your enemies is suicide and eugenics.
I do not think they are destroying all the guns we are giving them...I think they are arming our 3rd world enemies for when they come over here to get booty.
5 We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience.
Doctrine and Covenants 134:5
The Church stands against suicide and eugenics... giving your weapons to your enemies is suicide and eugenics.
I do not think they are destroying all the guns we are giving them...I think they are arming our 3rd world enemies for when they come over here to get booty.
5 We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience.
Doctrine and Covenants 134:5
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 7:31 pm
In a New York second.
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 7:33 pm
In the last days, when you fight the destroyer, you will be fighting God. There will be no winning that battle. The only way to live through it, is to realize this and turn to the Lord for protection. Relying on the arm of the flesh will not work. You can't fight God. The destroyer will be God's left arm. Good luck fighting against it.
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 7:38 pm
Thomas, I am with you on that one. This nation IS slated for destruction for having violated God's commandments as a people. But don't say that too loudly; people are sleeping..... :-$Thomas wrote:In the last days, when you fight the destroyer, you will be fighting God. There will be no winning that battle. The only way to live through it, is to realize this and turn to the Lord for protection. Relying on the arm of the flesh will not work. You can't fight God. The destroyer will be God's left arm. Good luck fighting against it.
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 7:43 pm
Agreed. I have played through numerous scenarios in my mind and though the real thing is far more intense, I think I would rather be shot trying to love as the Savior loved than to kill someone. When it's my time to go, I'll go, but I just can't imagine that violence in my life. If what Spencer says is true, the power of the priesthood, according to righteous living, is what will help us get through some of the things coming down the pike.JulesGP wrote:It depends on what the Spirit told me to do.
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 8:30 pm
That's very sad! If you aren't willing to fight for some-thing, then you are willing to die for any-thing.Songbird wrote:Agreed. I have played through numerous scenarios in my mind and though the real thing is far more intense, I think I would rather be shot trying to love as the Savior loved than to kill someone. When it's my time to go, I'll go, but I just can't imagine that violence in my life. If what Spencer says is true, the power of the priesthood, according to righteous living, is what will help us get through some of the things coming down the pike.JulesGP wrote:It depends on what the Spirit told me to do.
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 8:42 pm
Well, this is Moses's house, so we should all follow the Prophet. :ymparty:
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 9:05 pm
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The battle is the Lord's (Thursday, April 15, 2010) wrote:I had an interesting conversation yesterday. It provoked this comment.
When Julius ended the Republic by crossing the Rubicon with the 13th Legion from Gaul, he established a dictatorship that would change into the Empire thereafter. The Republic was dead. The Empire lived on.
Julius' great nephew is regarded as the first fully recognized Emperor of the Roman Empire. He ruled until his death in 14 AD as dictator for life.
Rome dominated the world, subduing other peoples who were considered inferior to Romans. They believed it was Rome's right to rule the world. Roman control was benefiting others. This was the Pax Romana, or peace of Rome. It came at the point of a spear. Such is the peace offered by the leaders of this world.
Among the lands under Roman control was the Judean province in which Jesus Christ was born. The place of His birth was directly affected by Augustus' taxing. (Luke 2: 1-6.) He was a Jewish subject to the vassal king of the Herodian family. His life was lived between two Roman controlled provinces.
Jesus was asked if it was lawful to give tribute to Rome. He responded by asking for a coin, noting Caesar's image on it, and remarking "give unto Caesar the things that are Casear's; and unto God the things that are God's." (Matt. 22: 17-22.)
Jesus never challenged Roman authority. He submitted to it.When the time comes for the establishment of Zion, it will not be necessary for us to deviate from Christ's example. Those who are in the promised latter-day Zion will be protected by the "the terror of the Lord." The residents will be those who "will not take up arms against their neighbor." (D&C 45: 66-71.) There is no need to overthrow the world. It will overthrow itself. The Lord will not permit the wicked to destroy the righteous. (1 Ne. 22: 16.) It is the wicked who destroy the wicked. (Mormon 4: 5.)
We live in a world today in which Pax Americana has established controlled violence the world over. The fear of destruction holds forces at bay which would gladly destroy one another if permitted. The key to replacing the current world order with another one, as many insurgencies the world over recognize, is the destruction of Pax Americana by destroying American hegemony. A lot of people are working on that, both inside and outside the United States.
Latter-day Zion will not need to take up the sword to defend themselves. The Lord will be their shield and protection. Since the wicked are responsible for killing the wicked, you join them when you decide to take up arms. You also exclude yourself from those who are to come to Zion - for that group will be composed only of those who refuse to take up arms against their neighbor. (D&C 45: 68, above.)
Read again how Zion was protected in the days of Enoch. (Moses 7: 13-17.) It wasn't an army or arms which protected them. It was the Lord who dwelt among them.
Our challenge as a people is to live so the Lord can dwell among us. He will "take up His abode" with us as the Second Comforter, if we are prepared to receive Him. This is why I have written what I have written. Zion will be a byproduct of a prepared people. It never has been and never will be the result of a violent, armed, and politically motivated insurrection by people who want to isolate themselves from the world. Such people will only be a part of those who take up arms, and acting as part of the wicked, join in the destruction of the wicked, including themselves.
This does not mean that some righteous will not be required to die. The Lord's ability to protect us will require His hand move in "justice and mercy" to fulfill His promises. Those who die will die unto the Lord. Those who live will live unto the Lord. But the battle is the Lord's
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 9:48 pm
Did Nephi give up his swords?
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 10:03 pm
Shucks, I give up that gun years ago----Col. Flagg wrote:I know, we can see you and your gun in your avatar Bob.bobhenstra wrote:I'm already in Zion, and armed!
Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d
Posted: December 19th, 2012, 10:05 pm
Did Joseph Smith give up his pistol?bobhenstra wrote:Did Nephi give up his swords?