LDS Freedom Forum

D & C 98: 5-10 Anything more or less than the Constitution cometh of evil.

Benjamin Harrison wrote:D & C 98: 5-10 Anything more or less than the Constitution cometh of evil.

So if the Church told you to give up your guns, they'd be supporting evil?

They wouldn't, because it was the Lord that made that statement concerning the Constitution.

Already have told people to keep unconstitutional laws, why would this be different?

Even prop. 8 was not a litmus test of faith and one must also remember that the Church rarely takes a stand in a political matter, even this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZzkeuR423k" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Elder Wickman)

So I doubt the LDS Church would ever take a stand one way or another on guns...which is quite sad in a way.

Guns aren't political anymore than marriage is. Elder Wickman was either uninformed, or not telling the truth on the Church's involvement of prop 8

Ben McClintock wrote:Is it not plausible that the Pres of the Church would encourage everyone to "obey the law of the land"?

If they did, they would be in full support of owning and bearing arms, because this is part of the law of the land handed down to us by God. They would NOT say to keep the law of the land except for having guns.

But if you do not want guns in your home...that is your right. You do not need to justify the reasons. It's just that you might have to eat ROAD KILL instead of getting fresh meat at some point.

I never said I didn't have any or want any guns

Ben McClintock wrote:I never said I didn't have any or want any guns

If you truly do not need them...then why have them? You said you don't need guns, so what are the rest of us supposed to extrapolate from that statement?

So you don't own anything you don't need? Good on you. The only thing you were supposed to get out of it is what I said

If they did, they would be in full support of owning and bearing arms, because this is part of the law of the land handed down to us by God.

What does it mean "the Law...handed down to us by God"?

A) The 1st set of stone tablets, the 10 Commandments, the Law of the Covenant, the Law of Moses, The Beatitudes, Acts 10, Malachi 3, D&C 1, 20, 84, 107, etc.... all these writings were handed to us directly by Christ, or from the Lord through His prophet....

B) The Declaration, Constitution, Bill of Rights, NorthWest ordinance, etc... these were created by men hashing things out, compromising, setting aside, etc....granted, these were the best men available (sadly George Wythe had to leave the Const. Conv. early), and no doubt God raised them up and inspired them in the solutions they presented - but can we really say they were handed to us by God in the implied sense that A has been handed to us by God?


Just a thought....

I'm still trying to figure out why "Follow the Spirit" was not considered a good answer.... :-\

It doesn't matter at all what the Church says, what the government says, what my CCP says, what my dad says, what my itchy trigger finger says.... etc. Personal revelation by the spirit - in any situation is the right answer. The rest of the Church may opt to raise up an army - but the Lord may have a different plan FOR ME. The Church may tell us we will be exed if we keep our guns - but the Lord may have a different plan FOR ME. That answer for me may also vary in different situations, and may be a different answer than the guy next to me. Etc. It all depends, but it's up to Him.

Follow the spirit is my final answer.

I think it is a better answer than any of mine have been, or anyone else's.

HeirofNumenor wrote:

If they did, they would be in full support of owning and bearing arms, because this is part of the law of the land handed down to us by God.

What does it mean "the Law...handed down to us by God"?

A) The 1st set of stone tablets, the 10 Commandments, the Law of the Covenant, the Law of Moses, The Beatitudes, Acts 10, Malachi 3, D&C 1, 20, 84, 107, etc.... all these writings were handed to us directly by Christ, or from the Lord through His prophet....

B) The Declaration, Constitution, Bill of Rights, NorthWest ordinance, etc... these were created by men hashing things out, compromising, setting aside, etc....granted, these were the best men available (sadly George Wythe had to leave the Const. Conv. early), and no doubt God raised them up and inspired them in the solutions they presented - but can we really say they were handed to us by God in the implied sense that A has been handed to us by God?


Just a thought....

Doctrine and Covenants 98:6
6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;

Doctrine and Covenants 101:80
And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

Thomas wrote:I think it is a better answer than any of mine have been, or anyone else's.

We can also ACT or be ACTED upon. God gave us the agency to choose. Also, at what point are we regarded as slothful, if we depend on the spirit only? Will God direct us in all things, at all times without any effort or preparation on our part?

JulesGP wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out why "Follow the Spirit" was not considered a good answer....

BM Wrote
Because 99.99% of the time it's a cop out

But it still not just a "good" answer, it's the RIGHT answer. BM is also right in that the statement is often used as a cop-out, but in terms of what it really means and the correctness of that position, from my perspective, it is irrefutable. If the prophet tells you to do one thing, and God tells you to do another -- and you are absolutely sure of the source -- DO WHAT GOD TELLS YOU, PERSONALLY, TO DO!

Why do we even argue and debate about stuff like that?

Not only that, but if the prophet tells you something that just doesn't seem right, you are obligated to get on your knees for confirmation.

Which is what I would be doing in this situation, which I don't believe will ever happen.

What I might expect to happen is the church leaders might make a statement such as "We believe in being subject to the laws of the land." and if people didn;t understand what the laws of the land were and took that as direction to give up their guns, that's their fault.

tmac wrote: -- and you are absolutely sure of the source --

You'd better know how to do that for absolute sure since the Lord said what His Prophet says is the same thing as Him saying it.

D&C 1
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

God bless you Ben. I hope the prophet(s) always provide you and yours with every answer you need.

tmac wrote:God bless you Ben. I hope the prophet(s) always provide you and yours with every answer you need.

I am NOT waiting to be commanded in all things. I was only pointing out the words of the Lord on what happens when we take our own council over His.

Fiannan wrote:So what do you suppose Joseph Smith would say?

Since you asked:

Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 30; “He that arms himself with gun, sword, or pistol, except in the defense of truth, will sometime be sorry for it. I never carry any weapon with me bigger than my penknife. When I was dragged before the cannon and muskets in Missouri, I was unarmed. God will always protect me until my mission is fulfilled. (HC 6:364-65.)”

There is some evidence that a pistol had been smuggled into Carthage, and Joseph may have fired it. If so, did it save his life? Did it save anyone's life? Not his own, and probably not anyone else's.

I'm curious to the OP who posted the survey and started the thread. Was there a need? Do members have some quiet fear that the church Prez will tell people to hand in their guns? What is the basis for this fear?

Or is this some kind of litmus test? Is this an opportunity for some to show off just how far they're willing to go to heed the President?

In general terms, I don't believe the gov't will make any move to disarm anyone, despite the present clamor. They need to make it as easy as possible for people to kill each other in the coming civil war. If they didn't want people to have guns, people wouldn't be able to buy them in the record numbers as they are.

If you own a gun, you need to take care not to be swept up in the violence that is coming. I'm not against guns per se; I believe that if I owned one I would be too apt to rely on it for defense instead of relying on the Lord. I fear that many priesthood holders will die in the violence, simply because they reached for their guns instead of the Lord.

Does anyone on this forum think that any one of these church leaders are merely speaking to hear themselves talk? Is there a mandate to stand up for freedom at any cost, even bloodshed? (Watch the President Benson videos already posted) For those that want to retain their opinion, without further light and knowledge, that bloodshed won't happen and that the need for self defense weapons are not part of keeping our freedom...read the following.

From "A Glorious Standard For All Mankind" we read:

Mosiah 29:21
And Mosiah observed that “ye cannot dethrone an iniquitous king save it be through much contention, and the shedding of much blood” .

Alma 48:13
Moroni loved the system of self-government God had given His people, and he was willing to fight for it: “He was a man who was firm in the faith of Christ, and he had sworn with an oath to defend his people, his rights, and his country, and his religion, even to the loss of his blood” .

Certainly there are many lessons which may be drawn from those war chapters (43 through 62) in the Book of Alma, but one of the clearest ones is that liberty must not be lost. For if it is, only bloodshed will buy it back. And even if freedom is not openly under attack, eternal vigilance is still the price to keep it.

Brigham Young
We will cling to the Constitution of our country, and to the government that reveres that sacred charter of freemen’s rights; and, if necessary, pour out our best blood for the defense of every good and righteous principle…. Let us unfurl the stars and stripes—the flag of our country; let us sustain the Constitution that our fathers have bequeathed to us in letters of blood; and those who violate it will have to meet the crushing and damning penalties that will bury them in the mire of everlasting disgrace. If we sustain it, it will be sustained; otherwise it will not. (March 9, 1862, Journal of Discourses, 10:41)

J. Reuben Clark
Brethren, let us think about that, because I say unto you with all the soberness I can, that we stand in danger of losing our liberties, and that once lost, only blood will bring them back; and once lost, we of this Church will, in order to keep the Church going forward, have more sacrifices to make and more persecutions to endure than we have yet known, heavy as our sacrifices and grievous as our persecutions of the past have been. (April 1944, General Conference)

I say to you that the price of liberty is and always has been, blood, human blood, and if our liberties are lost, we shall never regain them except at the price of blood. They must not be lost! (address delivered November 21, 1952, and published November 29, 1952, Church News, 3)

Ezra Taft Benson
We must ever keep faith with our founding fathers by keeping faith with our Constitution. I trust that we all have faith in the Constitution of the United States, and that that faith is born of an assurance that this great document came into being through the inspiration of God to wise men, embodying as it does, eternal principles. This nation has a spiritual foundation which must be preserved at any cost of sweat and blood. May we recognize our debt and responsibility and be ever vigilant….

Brethren, if we had done our homework and were faithful, we could step forward at this time and help save this country. The fact that most of us are unprepared to do it is an indictment we will have to bear. The longer we wait, the heavier the chains, the deeper the blood, the more the persecution, and the less we can carry out our God-given mandate and worldwide mission. The war in heaven is raging on the earth today. Are you being neutralized in the battle? (April 1965, General Conference)

Brigham Young, Jr.
[The] Latter-day Saints will rise up in the power and majesty of the priesthood, and they will bear off the Constitution of the United States. That was given by revelation, and we will defend it with the last drop of blood we have in our bodies and the last dollar in our pockets….(April 1901, General Conference)

...the price of liberty is and always has been blood…and if our liberties are lost, we shall never regain them except at the price of blood,” and so “they must not be lost!”

Mosiah Hancock
[According to Brother Hancock, the Prophet Joseph Smith told him,] The United States will spend her strength and means warring in foreign lands until other nations will say, “Let’s divide up the lands of the United States,” then the people of the U.S. will unite and swear by the blood of their fore-fathers, that the land shall not be divided. Then the country will go to war, and they will fight until one half of the U.S. army will give up, and the rest will continue to struggle. They will keep on until they are very ragged and discouraged, and almost ready to give up—when the boys from the mountains will rush forth in time to save the American Army from defeat and ruin. And they will say, “Brethren, we are glad you have come; give us men, henceforth, who can talk with God.” Then you will have friends, but you will save the country when its liberty hangs by a hair, as it were. (Life Story of Mosiah Lyman Hancock, 19-20)

I fear that many priesthood holders will die in the violence, simply because they reached for their guns instead of the Lord.

I see this as well....

It's a good point. What we should all be seeking to know, understand and do is the Lord's Will. But let's not pretend that we always already know what it is, or that there is some one size-fits-all general answer. That's why the Lord provides the Spirit, to guide us individually, if we will do what is required to receive that guidance. Those that are not willing to recognize or do that are typically entirely dependent upon the Brethren, which is often their main (if not only) means of learning the Lord's will.