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Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: December 31st, 2012, 6:04 pm
by freedomforall
Book of Ruth wrote:I think that that we will voluntarily give up all weapons of war. Every last one of them and we won't care if we die or not after all the killing witnessed by those going to Zion.

Same story as the Anti-Lehi-Nephites. They layed down and were slain and worshipped God. Their wives and children were not protected by their husbands taking up arms they were protected by the Lord softening their enemies hearts.

The Anti-Lehi-Nephites were so disgusted with their own behavior and the killings, they repented, said "the Lords will" and never looked back. Those people never became a wicked people and every last one of them remained steadfast in the Lord.

I wonder how much we'll have to witness before we don't care whether we live or die?
And it was their sons that became the Stripling Warriors. 2000 at first, than later 60 more. And God protected them as well.

I saw a taste of destruction in Nam, so to think I'd witness even worse things turns my stomach. I like seeing God's beauty, but when it starts to get blown to bits or shot into the air by volcanos, or shaken to pieces by earthquakes, and every other means of destruction...I don't think I can handle it. I don't want to see the eyes of people falling out of their sockets or their flesh falling off their bones and maggots eating the flesh, and the stench in the air and so forth, to see mothers eating the flesh of their children...that's too much for me.
I wish God were merciful enough to raise the righteous off the earth before all this takes place, and then destroy the wicked. But He's letting the righteous witness all this stuff and be squashed like bugs along with the wicked...and it makes me sick. That's one test I hope I do not have to pass through.

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 5th, 2013, 3:07 pm
by Invector12
gruden2.0 wrote:
Fiannan wrote:So what do you suppose Joseph Smith would say?
Since you asked:

Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 30; “He that arms himself with gun, sword, or pistol, except in the defense of truth, will sometime be sorry for it. I never carry any weapon with me bigger than my penknife. When I was dragged before the cannon and muskets in Missouri, I was unarmed. God will always protect me until my mission is fulfilled. (HC 6:364-65.)”
I stumbled across this forum by accident, and was just browsing around for awhile when I came across this thread and this post.

Fiannan posed a question regarding what Joseph Smith would say, but I don't believe the above quote represents Joseph's views on giving up your guns very well.
Here are a couple more for your consideration.

In his journal (June 15, 1944) he writes: “Two brethren came from Lima, and said that Colonel Levi Williams had demanded the arms belonging to the Mormons in that neighborhood. They wished my advice on the subject. I told them that when they gave up their arms, to give up their lives with them…"

Two days later on the 17th he wrote a letter to his Uncle John Smith regarding his (Joseph’s ) instructions in case of mob violence.

In that letter he wrote: "We feel to hope for the best, and determined to prepare for the worst; and we want this to be your motto in common with us, ‘That we will never ground our arms until we give them up by death.’"

Later in the same letter he wrote: "It is impossible to give you correct information what to do beforehand; but act according to the emergency of the case, but never give up your arms, but die first."

I think these two quotes better reflect what Joseph would say regarding the issue of gun control.

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 5th, 2013, 5:54 pm
by freedomforall
Invector12 wrote:
gruden2.0 wrote:
Fiannan wrote:So what do you suppose Joseph Smith would say?
Since you asked:

Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 30; “He that arms himself with gun, sword, or pistol, except in the defense of truth, will sometime be sorry for it. I never carry any weapon with me bigger than my penknife. When I was dragged before the cannon and muskets in Missouri, I was unarmed. God will always protect me until my mission is fulfilled. (HC 6:364-65.)”
I stumbled across this forum by accident, and was just browsing around for awhile when I came across this thread and this post.

Fiannan posed a question regarding what Joseph Smith would say, but I don't believe the above quote represents Joseph's views on giving up your guns very well.
Here are a couple more for your consideration.

In his journal (June 15, 1944) he writes: “Two brethren came from Lima, and said that Colonel Levi Williams had demanded the arms belonging to the Mormons in that neighborhood. They wished my advice on the subject. I told them that when they gave up their arms, to give up their lives with them…"

Two days later on the 17th he wrote a letter to his Uncle John Smith regarding his (Joseph’s ) instructions in case of mob violence.

In that letter he wrote: "We feel to hope for the best, and determined to prepare for the worst; and we want this to be your motto in common with us, ‘That we will never ground our arms until we give them up by death.’"

Later in the same letter he wrote: "It is impossible to give you correct information what to do beforehand; but act according to the emergency of the case, but never give up your arms, but die first."

I think these two quotes better reflect what Joseph would say regarding the issue of gun control.
:-BD :ymapplause:


Harold B. Lee
[Latter-day Saints] devoutly believe that if [the Constitution] should be in danger of being overthrown, their lives, if need be, are to be offered in defense of its principles. (April 13, 1941, “True Patriotism—An Expression of Faith”)

...that it is the land of Zion; that the founders of this nation were men of inspired vision; that the Constitution as written by the inspiration of heaven must be preserved at all costs. (April 13, 1941, “True Patriotism—An Expression of Faith”)

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 5th, 2013, 6:09 pm
by heartsongs
Thomas wrote:I am pretty sure that those who make it to Zion will be without weapons. They will not fight their way there. I believe this from my indepth study of the Book of Isaiah. It talks quite a lot about waiting on the Lord for safety. It also talks about the efforts of men to be in vain.

God will empower a destroyer to destroy the wicked. This destroyer will be invincible and reign over the entire world. There will be no escape from him or fighting him. Only by waiting on the Lord and being patient through the trail will any be saved. God will destroy the destroyer when his work is done and it looks like there is no hope for the righteous. Those that pick up weapons will join the wicked.
Can you elaborate a little on your thoughts/ideas please? I would be interested in hearing them. :-?

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 5th, 2013, 6:29 pm
by freedomforall
heartsongs wrote:
Thomas wrote:I am pretty sure that those who make it to Zion will be without weapons. They will not fight their way there. I believe this from my indepth study of the Book of Isaiah. It talks quite a lot about waiting on the Lord for safety. It also talks about the efforts of men to be in vain.

God will empower a destroyer to destroy the wicked. This destroyer will be invincible and reign over the entire world. There will be no escape from him or fighting him. Only by waiting on the Lord and being patient through the trail will any be saved. God will destroy the destroyer when his work is done and it looks like there is no hope for the righteous. Those that pick up weapons will join the wicked.
Can you elaborate a little on your thoughts/ideas please? I would be interested in hearing them. :-?
Let me say this about that.
God gave us the Constitution
The 2nd Amendment is part of that Constitution
He authorized us to own and bear arms as part of our freedom
God has an army, armed to the teeth to take care of business when the time is right
We are the protectors as was Moroni and his army
So why would God do any differently?

Joseph Smith:
If we have to give up our chartered rights, privileges, and freedom, which our fathers fought, bled, and died for, and which the constitution of the United States and of this state guarantee unto us, we will do it only at the point of the sword and bayonet. (June 1843, History of the Church, 5:468)

John Taylor:
Those who will not take up their sword to fight against their neighbor must needs flee to Zion for safety…. When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men, and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations. This is part of the programme, and as long as we do what is right and fear God, he will help us and stand by us under all circumstances. (August 31, 1879, Journal of Discourses, 21:8)

Moses Thatcher:
I will tell you, my brethren and sisters, the day will come, and it is not far distant, when he who will not take up his sword against his neighbor, will have to flee to Zion for safety; and it is presupposed in this prediction that Zion will have power to give them protection. We are not going to do it outside of the government, either; we are going to do it inside the government. There is no power in this land to turn this people against the government of the United States. They will maintain the Constitution of this country inviolate, and although it may have been torn to shreds they will tie it together again, and maintain every principle of it, holding it up to the downtrodden of every nation, kindred, tongue and people, and they will do it, too, under the Stars and Stripes. They will stand with their feet firmly upon the backbone of the American continent and maintain the principles which cost their fathers so much, and those principles cannot be taken away by men who violate their oath of office, and betray their trust.

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 8th, 2013, 2:46 pm
by freedomforall
Politicians need to look at these and reread the constitution before they make any laws based strictly on emotionalism!



Firearms Refresher Course ... Simple as this!


1. "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
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2. "Those who trade liberty for security have neither." ~ John Adams
3. Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.
4. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.
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5. Only a government that is afraid of its citizens tries to control them.
6. Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.
7. You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.
8. Know guns, know peace, know safety.
No guns, no peace, no safety.
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9. You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.
10. Assault is a behavior, not a device.
11. 64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.
12. The United States Constitution (c) 1791. All Rights Reserved.
13. The Second Amendment is in place in case the politicians ignore the others.
14. What part of 'shall not be infringed' do you NOT understand?
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15. Guns have only two enemies; rust and politicians.
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16. When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves.
17. The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control.


PLEASE PASS THIS 'REFRESHER' TO TEN FREE CITIZENS. "I love this country, it's the government I'm afraid of"

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 8th, 2013, 10:05 pm
by Thomas
heartsongs wrote:
Thomas wrote:I am pretty sure that those who make it to Zion will be without weapons. They will not fight their way there. I believe this from my indepth study of the Book of Isaiah. It talks quite a lot about waiting on the Lord for safety. It also talks about the efforts of men to be in vain.

God will empower a destroyer to destroy the wicked. This destroyer will be invincible and reign over the entire world. There will be no escape from him or fighting him. Only by waiting on the Lord and being patient through the trail will any be saved. God will destroy the destroyer when his work is done and it looks like there is no hope for the righteous. Those that pick up weapons will join the wicked.
Can you elaborate a little on your thoughts/ideas please? I would be interested in hearing them. :-?
My thoughts come from studying Isaiah. I have spent many hours listening to and reading Avahram Gileadi's Isaiah intepetation.
http://isaiahexplained.com/isaiah_ch_01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This along with a study of revelations and and other scriptures have given me insight. I think Isaiah gives one of the most comprehensive accounts of the last days. Jesus Christ has commanded us to study Isaiah.
3 Nephi 23:1

1 And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.
I believe people should be free to choose to have weapons. I am not for gun control. I just don't think you can fight against the inevitable. God has said, he will empower a endtime dictator, that will have dominion over all nations.
Revelation 13:7

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Isaiah talks about this dictator being Gods left arm. How sucessful do you think you will be stopping this, if it is God's will? The saints will be tried and tested. How we act during the test will determine our status with the Savior.
Revelation 2:10

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
God will make a covenant with the saints. The saints will obey God and God will protect them and give them food and shelter. The wicked will kill the wicked. The righteous will have God's protection.

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 8th, 2013, 10:56 pm
by freedomforall
Thomas wrote: I believe people should be free to choose to have weapons. I am not for gun control. I just don't think you can fight against the inevitable. God has said, he will empower a endtime dictator, that will have dominion over all nations.
So does this nullify all the words from previous prophets telling us that we must stand up for freedom at any cost, even if it means our lives? Do we know ignore their words and say, "oh well, if they blow my head off my shoulders, it is God's will?"

And since we have been told that the Elders will save the Constitution, where does the words of Isaiah fit in here? There is something drastically wrong with this picture. Just which voice is telling the truth, which one do we follow, or do we make things up as we go?

IMHO, Isaiah 13 is for a much later time in the future, otherwise the prophets would not have told us to befriend and defend the Constitution.

We must look at all these things using reason.

Any comments?

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 9th, 2013, 12:14 am
by Thomas
freedomfighter wrote:
Thomas wrote: I believe people should be free to choose to have weapons. I am not for gun control. I just don't think you can fight against the inevitable. God has said, he will empower a endtime dictator, that will have dominion over all nations.
So does this nullify all the words from previous prophets telling us that we must stand up for freedom at any cost, even if it means our lives? Do we know ignore their words and say, "oh well, if they blow my head off my shoulders, it is God's will?"

And since we have been told that the Elders will save the Constitution, where does the words of Isaiah fit in here? There is something drastically wrong with this picture. Just which voice is telling the truth, which one do we follow, or do we make things up as we go?

IMHO, Isaiah 13 is for a much later time in the future, otherwise the prophets would not have told us to befriend and defend the Constitution.

We must look at all these things using reason.

Any comments?
Who told you the elders would save the constitution? Look into it and you will find it is not true. There is a heresay statement from, Joesph Smith , saying if it is to be saved at all, it would be by the elders of Israel. What exactly does that mean? If is a pretty big word. Why do so many think IF means a guaranty? Maybe it happens after Americia is destroyed and the Lamanites inherit this country. Maybe it was made up by the person who told it some years after the prophet died.

I put much more stock in the scriptures, than in second hand stories given by someone who claims the prophet said something and reveals it after that prophet is dead. It can not be accepted as revelation. Yes, I know about some of the statements made by other GAs. I don't consider any of them to be prophecy or to override scripture. The standard for revelation, in the church, is it has to be voted on by the fifteen Apostles, presented to the church and published in the D&C. If it is not in the D&C, it is not accepted as revelation by the church.

The scriptures just don't back anything up like this. Infact, the scriptures say, all kingdoms and all nations will fall. I have already posted one that shows a dictator will be given power over the whole earth.

The words of Isaiah are part of the standard works. Christ has commaded us to study Isaiah. It is in the Book of Mormon. I have recieved a spiritual witness to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. I have received no such witness about this country or the constitution being saved or any witness about statements to that effect.

The Book of Mormon says the Gentiles will be swept off this land and the desolate cities will be inhabited by the Lamanites.
3 Nephi 22:
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left, and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
There is a lot of Mormon myth in our culture. It takes some time, study and prayer to sift the truth from the myths.

I understand prophets have said to defend your life. That is a lot different than fighting the NWO, the beast that rules the world, a type and shadow of the King of Assyria, God's left arm.. All I can say is study the scriptures. Don't take anybody's word about things. Find out for yourself. Pray about it. The answers will be a lot different than most Mormons think they are.

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 9th, 2013, 2:08 am
by freedomforall
Thomas wrote:Who told you the elders would save the constitution?
The devil knows that if the elders of Israel should ever wake up, they could step forth and help preserve freedom and extend the gospel. Therefore the devil has concentrated, and to a large extent successfully, in neutralizing much of the priesthood. He has reduced them to sleeping giants. His arguments are clever….
[Says the devil]: “Don’t do anything in the fight for freedom until the Church sets up its own specific program to save the Constitution.” This brings us right back to the scripture…to those slothful servants who will not do anything until they are “compelled in all things” [D&C 58:26]. Maybe the Lord will never set up a specific church program for the purpose of saving the Constitution. Perhaps if he set one up at this time it might split the Church asunder, and perhaps he does not want that to happen yet for not all the wheat and tares are fully ripe….
[H]ave we elders been warned? Yes, we have. And have we elders been given the guidelines? Yes indeed, we have. And besides, if the Church should ever inaugurate a program [to save the Constitution], who do you think would be in the forefront to get it moving? It would not be those who were sitting on the sidelines prior to that time or those who were appeasing the enemy. It would be those choice spirits who, not waiting to be “commanded in all things,” used their own free will, the counsel of the prophets, and the Spirit of the Lord as guidelines and who entered the battle “in a good cause” and brought to pass much righteousness in freedom’s cause….
Brethren, if we had done our homework and were faithful, we could step forward at this time and help save this country. The fact that most of us are unprepared to do it is an indictment we will have to bear. The longer we wait, the heavier the chains, the deeper the blood, the more the persecution, and the less we can carry out our God-given mandate and worldwide mission. The war in heaven
is raging on the earth today. Are you being neutralized in the battle? (April 1965, General Conference)

For years we have heard of the role the elders could play in saving the Constitution from total destruction. But how can the elders be expected to save it if they have not studied it and are not sure if it is being destroyed or what is destroying it?...
Now it is not so much a case of a man giving up all his other duties to fight for freedom, as it is a case of a man getting his life in balance so he can discharge all of his God-given responsibilities. And of all these responsibilities President McKay has said that we have “no greater immediate responsibility” than “to protect the freedom vouchsafed by the Constitution of the United States.” There is no excuse that can compensate for the loss of liberty. (October 25, 1966, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year)

You must keep your honor. You cannot yet speak officially for the country, but you can become informed. You can speak your mind. You may think you can do little about the national economy or the actions of our government and the moral weakness all about us, but we must all remember that the Lord has placed great responsibilities upon the elders of Israel in the preservation of our Constitution. (February 11, 1979; from an address given at a Young Adult Fireside, Logan, Utah)

When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the “Mormon” elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it. (February 18, 1855, Journal of Discourses, 2:182)

It is said that brother Joseph in his lifetime declared that the Elders of this Church should step forth at a particular time when the Constitution should be in danger, and rescue it, and save it. This may be so; but I do not recollect that he said exactly so. I believe he said something like this—that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he, [“]If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church.[”] I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it. The question is whether it will be saved at all, or not. (January 3, 1858, Journal of Discourses, 6:152)

Need we be surprised that they should trample under foot the Constitution of the United States? No; Joseph Smith told us that they would do it. Many around me here knew long ago that they would do this thing and further knew that the last people that should be found to rally around that sacred instrument and save it from the grasp of unrighteous men would be the Elders of Israel! When, therefore, we see these things progressing need we be astonished? I do not think we need be. (October 6, 1879, Journal of Discourses, 20:318)

[They] will tear away one plank of liberty after another, until the whole fabric will totter and fall; and many other nations will be cast down and empires destroyed; and this nation will have to suffer as others will. And it will be as Joseph Smith once said, “When all others forsake the Constitution, the Elders of this Church will rally around the standard and save its tattered shreds.” We will come to its rescue and proclaim liberty to all men. (November 30, 1879, Journal of Discourses, 20:357)

The day is not far distant when this nation will be shaken from centre to circumference. And now, you may write it down, any of you, and I will prophesy it in the name of God. And then will be fulfilled that prediction to be found in one of the revelations given through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Those who will not take up their sword to fight against their neighbor must needs flee to Zion for safety…. When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men, and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations. This is part of the programme, and as long as we do what is right and fear God, he will help us and stand by us under all circumstances. (August 31, 1879, Journal of Discourses, 21:8)

The Prophet Joseph Smith said that “The Constitution of the United States was given by the inspiration of God.” But good, virtuous and holy principles may be perverted by corrupt and wicked men. The Lord was opposed by Satan, Jesus had his Judas, and this nation abounds with traitors who ignore that sacred palladium of liberty and seek to trample it under foot. Joseph Smith said they would do so, and that when deserted by all, the elders of Israel would rally around its shattered fragments and save and preserve it inviolate. (April 9, 1879, Journal of Discourses, 21:31)

f the people of this nation are so blind and infatuated as to trample under foot the Constitution and other safeguards provided for the liberties of man, we do not propose to assist them in their suicidal and traitorous enterprises; for we have been told by Joseph Smith that when the people of this nation would trample upon the Constitution, the Elders of this Church would rally round the flag and defend it. (October 19, 1884, Journal of Discourses, 25:349-50)

And while other men are seeking to trample the Constitution under foot, we will try to maintain it. We have prophecies something like this somewhere; that the time would come when this nation would do as they are now doing—that is, they would trample under foot the Constitution and institutions of the nation, and the Elders of this Church would rally around the standard and maintain those principles which were introduced for the freedom and protection of men. We expect to do that, and to maintain all correct principle. (February 1, 1885, Journal of Discourses, 26:156)

We have been told repeatedly—I have heard it ever since I came into the Church almost—that the time would come when that Constitution would be in danger, and it would be the privilege and the duty of the men of God in the Church of Christ to stand up for the Constitution and help to maintain it and preserve it from being trampled under foot. (October 1912, General Conference)

The elders will remember that years ago we used to repeat that it was predicted by the Prophet Joseph Smith that the time would come when even the very Constitution of our country would be in danger, and the elders of this Church would arise in the might and the power of the Holy priesthood and bear the standard of liberty aloft, and save, or help to save, this country, from the evils of oppression and tyranny and bloodshed. (April 1918, General Conference)

I quote the words of Eliza R. Snow: “I heard the Prophet Joseph Smith say ‘that the time would come when this nation would so far depart from its original purity, its glory, and its love of freedom and the protection of civil and religious rights, that the Constitution of our country would hang, as it were, by a thread.’ He also said that this people, the sons of Zion, would rise up and save the Constitution and bear it off triumphantly.” (between January 1 and June 24, 1945, as quoted in Decisions for Successful Living, 209)

It was Joseph Smith who has been quoted as having said that the time would come when the Constitution would hang as by a thread and at that time when it was thus in jeopardy, the elders of this Church would step forth and save it from destruction. (October 1952, General Conference)

Concerning the United States, the Lord revealed to his prophets that its greatest threat would be a vast, world-wide “secret combination” which would not only threaten the United States but seek to “overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries.”... In connection with the attack on the United States, the Lord told his prophet there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time “this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.” It is my conviction that the elders of Israel, widely spread over the nation, will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government. (October 1961, General Conference)

The Prophet Joseph Smith said the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread. Modern-day prophets for the past several decades have been warning us that we have been rapidly moving in that direction. Fortunately, the Prophet Joseph Smith saw the part the elders of Israel would play in this crisis. Will there be some of us who won’t care about saving the Constitution, others who will be blinded by the craftiness of men, and some who will knowingly be working to destroy it? He who has ears to hear and eyes to see can discern by the Spirit and through the words of God’s mouthpiece that our liberties are being taken. (April 1963, General Conference)

The Prophet Joseph Smith declared it will be the elders of Israel who will step forward to help save the Constitution, not the Church. (April 1965, General Conference)

The elders of this church have a prophetic mission yet to perform so far as the Constitution is concerned. In a discourse by Joseph Smith on July 19, 1840, he said:
Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground, and when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin, this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean, and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction. Now, how are the elders going to prepare for that mission? How are they going to know what the Constitution is so they will know when it is on the brink of ruin? (May 1975, New Era, 19)

Thank God for the Constitution that made it possible for the Lord to establish his church and base of operations here in the United States for these last days. And may God bless the elders of Israel that when, as President John Taylor said, “the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States, the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of earth and proclaiming liberty.” (May 1975, New Era, 19)


We will sustain the government in its administration, and be true to it, and maintain this position right along. And when division, strife, trouble and contention arise, we will try to still the troubled waters, and act in all honesty as true friends to the government; and when war shall exist among them, and there is no one found to sustain the remnants of liberty that may be left, the Elders of Israel will rally round
the standard of freedom and proclaim liberty to all the world. (April 1880, General Conference)

When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men, and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations. This is part of the programme, and as long as we do what is right and fear God, he will help us and stand by us under all circumstances. (August 31, 1879, Journal of Discourses, 21:8)

I heard the prophet say, “The time will come when the Government of these United States will be so nearly overthrown through its own corruption, that the Constitution will hang as it were, by a single hair, and the Latter-day Saints—the Elders of Israel—will step forward to its rescue and save it.” (July 24, 1871, Journal History of the Church, 4)

This is who told me. Any more questions?

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 9th, 2013, 8:27 am
by Thomas
I guess you didn't read my last post. Like I said, I have read it all concening this issue. I was pretty much on the same page as you about a year ago, but as I studied this issue and prayed for knowledge, my views have changed.

None of the statements you quoted equate scripture or can overide scripture. Research what is prophecy and what is not. Not every statement made in GC or by a GA is scripture or is the word of God. If you take every word a GA says as the word of God, you are going to be pretty confused, when you start to realize how many statements are in complete oppsosition to the statements of others.

I know the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. I only know of two revelations post Joesph Smith era. All other statements must be consider man's opinion.

Please don't quote me anymore GA statements. I've read them all. I have studied this issue quite throughly.

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 9th, 2013, 1:29 pm
by Benjamin_LK
freedomfighter wrote:
Thomas wrote:Who told you the elders would save the constitution?
The devil knows that if the elders of Israel should ever wake up, they could step forth and help preserve freedom and extend the gospel. Therefore the devil has concentrated, and to a large extent successfully, in neutralizing much of the priesthood. He has reduced them to sleeping giants. His arguments are clever….
[Says the devil]: “Don’t do anything in the fight for freedom until the Church sets up its own specific program to save the Constitution.” This brings us right back to the scripture…to those slothful servants who will not do anything until they are “compelled in all things” [D&C 58:26]. Maybe the Lord will never set up a specific church program for the purpose of saving the Constitution. Perhaps if he set one up at this time it might split the Church asunder, and perhaps he does not want that to happen yet for not all the wheat and tares are fully ripe….
[H]ave we elders been warned? Yes, we have. And have we elders been given the guidelines? Yes indeed, we have. And besides, if the Church should ever inaugurate a program [to save the Constitution], who do you think would be in the forefront to get it moving? It would not be those who were sitting on the sidelines prior to that time or those who were appeasing the enemy. It would be those choice spirits who, not waiting to be “commanded in all things,” used their own free will, the counsel of the prophets, and the Spirit of the Lord as guidelines and who entered the battle “in a good cause” and brought to pass much righteousness in freedom’s cause….
Brethren, if we had done our homework and were faithful, we could step forward at this time and help save this country. The fact that most of us are unprepared to do it is an indictment we will have to bear. The longer we wait, the heavier the chains, the deeper the blood, the more the persecution, and the less we can carry out our God-given mandate and worldwide mission. The war in heaven
is raging on the earth today. Are you being neutralized in the battle? (April 1965, General Conference)

For years we have heard of the role the elders could play in saving the Constitution from total destruction. But how can the elders be expected to save it if they have not studied it and are not sure if it is being destroyed or what is destroying it?...
Now it is not so much a case of a man giving up all his other duties to fight for freedom, as it is a case of a man getting his life in balance so he can discharge all of his God-given responsibilities. And of all these responsibilities President McKay has said that we have “no greater immediate responsibility” than “to protect the freedom vouchsafed by the Constitution of the United States.” There is no excuse that can compensate for the loss of liberty. (October 25, 1966, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year)

You must keep your honor. You cannot yet speak officially for the country, but you can become informed. You can speak your mind. You may think you can do little about the national economy or the actions of our government and the moral weakness all about us, but we must all remember that the Lord has placed great responsibilities upon the elders of Israel in the preservation of our Constitution. (February 11, 1979; from an address given at a Young Adult Fireside, Logan, Utah)

When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the “Mormon” elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it. (February 18, 1855, Journal of Discourses, 2:182)

It is said that brother Joseph in his lifetime declared that the Elders of this Church should step forth at a particular time when the Constitution should be in danger, and rescue it, and save it. This may be so; but I do not recollect that he said exactly so. I believe he said something like this—that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he, [“]If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church.[”] I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it. The question is whether it will be saved at all, or not. (January 3, 1858, Journal of Discourses, 6:152)

Need we be surprised that they should trample under foot the Constitution of the United States? No; Joseph Smith told us that they would do it. Many around me here knew long ago that they would do this thing and further knew that the last people that should be found to rally around that sacred instrument and save it from the grasp of unrighteous men would be the Elders of Israel! When, therefore, we see these things progressing need we be astonished? I do not think we need be. (October 6, 1879, Journal of Discourses, 20:318)

[They] will tear away one plank of liberty after another, until the whole fabric will totter and fall; and many other nations will be cast down and empires destroyed; and this nation will have to suffer as others will. And it will be as Joseph Smith once said, “When all others forsake the Constitution, the Elders of this Church will rally around the standard and save its tattered shreds.” We will come to its rescue and proclaim liberty to all men. (November 30, 1879, Journal of Discourses, 20:357)

The day is not far distant when this nation will be shaken from centre to circumference. And now, you may write it down, any of you, and I will prophesy it in the name of God. And then will be fulfilled that prediction to be found in one of the revelations given through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Those who will not take up their sword to fight against their neighbor must needs flee to Zion for safety…. When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men, and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations. This is part of the programme, and as long as we do what is right and fear God, he will help us and stand by us under all circumstances. (August 31, 1879, Journal of Discourses, 21:8)

The Prophet Joseph Smith said that “The Constitution of the United States was given by the inspiration of God.” But good, virtuous and holy principles may be perverted by corrupt and wicked men. The Lord was opposed by Satan, Jesus had his Judas, and this nation abounds with traitors who ignore that sacred palladium of liberty and seek to trample it under foot. Joseph Smith said they would do so, and that when deserted by all, the elders of Israel would rally around its shattered fragments and save and preserve it inviolate. (April 9, 1879, Journal of Discourses, 21:31)

f the people of this nation are so blind and infatuated as to trample under foot the Constitution and other safeguards provided for the liberties of man, we do not propose to assist them in their suicidal and traitorous enterprises; for we have been told by Joseph Smith that when the people of this nation would trample upon the Constitution, the Elders of this Church would rally round the flag and defend it. (October 19, 1884, Journal of Discourses, 25:349-50)

And while other men are seeking to trample the Constitution under foot, we will try to maintain it. We have prophecies something like this somewhere; that the time would come when this nation would do as they are now doing—that is, they would trample under foot the Constitution and institutions of the nation, and the Elders of this Church would rally around the standard and maintain those principles which were introduced for the freedom and protection of men. We expect to do that, and to maintain all correct principle. (February 1, 1885, Journal of Discourses, 26:156)

We have been told repeatedly—I have heard it ever since I came into the Church almost—that the time would come when that Constitution would be in danger, and it would be the privilege and the duty of the men of God in the Church of Christ to stand up for the Constitution and help to maintain it and preserve it from being trampled under foot. (October 1912, General Conference)

The elders will remember that years ago we used to repeat that it was predicted by the Prophet Joseph Smith that the time would come when even the very Constitution of our country would be in danger, and the elders of this Church would arise in the might and the power of the Holy priesthood and bear the standard of liberty aloft, and save, or help to save, this country, from the evils of oppression and tyranny and bloodshed. (April 1918, General Conference)

I quote the words of Eliza R. Snow: “I heard the Prophet Joseph Smith say ‘that the time would come when this nation would so far depart from its original purity, its glory, and its love of freedom and the protection of civil and religious rights, that the Constitution of our country would hang, as it were, by a thread.’ He also said that this people, the sons of Zion, would rise up and save the Constitution and bear it off triumphantly.” (between January 1 and June 24, 1945, as quoted in Decisions for Successful Living, 209)

It was Joseph Smith who has been quoted as having said that the time would come when the Constitution would hang as by a thread and at that time when it was thus in jeopardy, the elders of this Church would step forth and save it from destruction. (October 1952, General Conference)

Concerning the United States, the Lord revealed to his prophets that its greatest threat would be a vast, world-wide “secret combination” which would not only threaten the United States but seek to “overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries.”... In connection with the attack on the United States, the Lord told his prophet there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time “this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.” It is my conviction that the elders of Israel, widely spread over the nation, will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government. (October 1961, General Conference)

The Prophet Joseph Smith said the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread. Modern-day prophets for the past several decades have been warning us that we have been rapidly moving in that direction. Fortunately, the Prophet Joseph Smith saw the part the elders of Israel would play in this crisis. Will there be some of us who won’t care about saving the Constitution, others who will be blinded by the craftiness of men, and some who will knowingly be working to destroy it? He who has ears to hear and eyes to see can discern by the Spirit and through the words of God’s mouthpiece that our liberties are being taken. (April 1963, General Conference)

The Prophet Joseph Smith declared it will be the elders of Israel who will step forward to help save the Constitution, not the Church. (April 1965, General Conference)

The elders of this church have a prophetic mission yet to perform so far as the Constitution is concerned. In a discourse by Joseph Smith on July 19, 1840, he said:
Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground, and when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin, this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean, and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction. Now, how are the elders going to prepare for that mission? How are they going to know what the Constitution is so they will know when it is on the brink of ruin? (May 1975, New Era, 19)

Thank God for the Constitution that made it possible for the Lord to establish his church and base of operations here in the United States for these last days. And may God bless the elders of Israel that when, as President John Taylor said, “the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States, the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of earth and proclaiming liberty.” (May 1975, New Era, 19)


We will sustain the government in its administration, and be true to it, and maintain this position right along. And when division, strife, trouble and contention arise, we will try to still the troubled waters, and act in all honesty as true friends to the government; and when war shall exist among them, and there is no one found to sustain the remnants of liberty that may be left, the Elders of Israel will rally round
the standard of freedom and proclaim liberty to all the world. (April 1880, General Conference)

When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men, and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations. This is part of the programme, and as long as we do what is right and fear God, he will help us and stand by us under all circumstances. (August 31, 1879, Journal of Discourses, 21:8)

I heard the prophet say, “The time will come when the Government of these United States will be so nearly overthrown through its own corruption, that the Constitution will hang as it were, by a single hair, and the Latter-day Saints—the Elders of Israel—will step forward to its rescue and save it.” (July 24, 1871, Journal History of the Church, 4)

This is who told me. Any more questions?


Put in mind to that the Constitutional Principles will be upheld in Zion, and to an extent, the church does practice a great deal of them in a way, such as disciplinary councils, which constitute a form of due process for church discipline. That's just one example, there are more.

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 9th, 2013, 1:36 pm
by Benjamin_LK
freedomfighter wrote:
heartsongs wrote:
Thomas wrote:I am pretty sure that those who make it to Zion will be without weapons. They will not fight their way there. I believe this from my indepth study of the Book of Isaiah. It talks quite a lot about waiting on the Lord for safety. It also talks about the efforts of men to be in vain.

God will empower a destroyer to destroy the wicked. This destroyer will be invincible and reign over the entire world. There will be no escape from him or fighting him. Only by waiting on the Lord and being patient through the trail will any be saved. God will destroy the destroyer when his work is done and it looks like there is no hope for the righteous. Those that pick up weapons will join the wicked.
Can you elaborate a little on your thoughts/ideas please? I would be interested in hearing them. :-?
Let me say this about that.
God gave us the Constitution
The 2nd Amendment is part of that Constitution
He authorized us to own and bear arms as part of our freedom
God has an army, armed to the teeth to take care of business when the time is right
We are the protectors as was Moroni and his army
So why would God do any differently?

Joseph Smith:
If we have to give up our chartered rights, privileges, and freedom, which our fathers fought, bled, and died for, and which the constitution of the United States and of this state guarantee unto us, we will do it only at the point of the sword and bayonet. (June 1843, History of the Church, 5:468)

John Taylor:
Those who will not take up their sword to fight against their neighbor must needs flee to Zion for safety…. When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men, and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations. This is part of the programme, and as long as we do what is right and fear God, he will help us and stand by us under all circumstances. (August 31, 1879, Journal of Discourses, 21:8)

Moses Thatcher:
I will tell you, my brethren and sisters, the day will come, and it is not far distant, when he who will not take up his sword against his neighbor, will have to flee to Zion for safety; and it is presupposed in this prediction that Zion will have power to give them protection. We are not going to do it outside of the government, either; we are going to do it inside the government. There is no power in this land to turn this people against the government of the United States. They will maintain the Constitution of this country inviolate, and although it may have been torn to shreds they will tie it together again, and maintain every principle of it, holding it up to the downtrodden of every nation, kindred, tongue and people, and they will do it, too, under the Stars and Stripes. They will stand with their feet firmly upon the backbone of the American continent and maintain the principles which cost their fathers so much, and those principles cannot be taken away by men who violate their oath of office, and betray their trust.
The British worked to confiscate arms from the colonists through a law known as the Coercion Act, which made it illegal for those who weren't British soldiers to carry guns or swords. Americans should honestly get a clue as to how much of their own history they have forgotten. The government is pretty much acting a lot like the British was in the early 1770s, after the completion of the Seven Years' War.
The British took away the arms from those who were colonists, in addition to all the taxes, conscription, and so forth, to keep everyone under British control.

http://www.davekopel.org/2A/LawRev/amer ... ntrol.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 9th, 2013, 2:59 pm
by kbcop
I agree it would be very difficult to turn in guns - and like others have said - it won't be by guns/swords that the righteous win in the end. It will be by the power of God! But also, along those lines - if there were laws passed regarding banning all handguns/rifles etc... I personally don't believe the church will be telling the members what to do - they always give us our agency to choose - with all the thousands of laws that we already have - they preach "general" guidelines of being good citizens & obeying/upholding the law - but not coming out & telling people specifically to turn in your guns...

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 9th, 2013, 3:42 pm
by TZONE
The church currently bans guns in their own churches yet we believe in the constitution. Why would it be far fetched for Zion to ban them as well? Constitution = Telestial Law. Zion = Celestial Law.

I think guns will be needed initially (though the unification in Zion will be great that they won't need to be used for the most part if at all)
but eventually they will need them less and less as they grow in faith (to a celestial law) to build up Zion.
WHy are we getting into some discussion about these awful plagues when we largely aren't serving missions among citizens of mainland China or among the Arab World? We've got work to do, and the Lord can make all of those places open for missionary work, and work mighty miracles for us, if we are willing to be more obedient to his commandments
Missionary work won't be completed until AFTER New Jerusalem. So these places could receive the gospel after the major war and cleansings (these cleansings are different than the battle of Armageddon)

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 9th, 2013, 8:29 pm
by freedomforall
Thomas wrote:I guess you didn't read my last post. Like I said, I have read it all concening this issue. I was pretty much on the same page as you about a year ago, but as I studied this issue and prayed for knowledge, my views have changed.

None of the statements you quoted equate scripture or can overide scripture. Research what is prophecy and what is not. Not every statement made in GC or by a GA is scripture or is the word of God. If you take every word a GA says as the word of God, you are going to be pretty confused, when you start to realize how many statements are in complete oppsosition to the statements of others.

I know the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. I only know of two revelations post Joesph Smith era. All other statements must be consider man's opinion.

Please don't quote me anymore GA statements. I've read them all. I have studied this issue quite throughly.
Well, I've already talked about Revelation 13 elsewhere on the forum a long time ago. And I still contend that since scripture does not give us a down-to-the-minute-timeline, all our guessing is meaningless as well. So anybody attempting to tell me that the righteous is going to be overcome any time soon is wasting their breath. Attempting to zero in on the Lord's coming is a mere waste of time. He will come when He comes. That's good enough for me. Same thing goes for the cleansing of America, it will happen when it happens. I do know that our freedoms are being chipped away and most everyone in this country is sitting back and allowing it to happen, even in our church. Moroni would turn over in is grave if he were to see the apathy in the church towards that which scripture (official church doctrine) does reveal.

You want to quote scripture. Well read this:

Doctrine and Covenants 98:5,6
5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.
6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;

101:77
77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;

2 Ne. 1:7 (7–9)
7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.
8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.
9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.

Where in them does it say to ignore the responsibility of fighting to keep and upholding the Constitution until the Lord sees fit to have Satan rule?

In the meantime it is my responsibility to befriend the Constitution and uphold it until I'm told otherwise by someone higher up than anyone on this forum. I'm not a member of the "goose bump gang" and don't want to be. I have food storage and 72 hour back packs ready for use.

but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.
they shall dwell safely forever.

Two promises that if sought for would remain. But the present apathy and carelessness may extinguish these promises and this is a mighty shame.

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 9th, 2013, 9:50 pm
by Benjamin_LK
TZONE wrote:The church currently bans guns in their own churches yet we believe in the constitution. Why would it be far fetched for Zion to ban them as well? Constitution = Telestial Law. Zion = Celestial Law.

I think guns will be needed initially (though the unification in Zion will be great that they won't need to be used for the most part if at all)
but eventually they will need them less and less as they grow in faith (to a celestial law) to build up Zion.
WHy are we getting into some discussion about these awful plagues when we largely aren't serving missions among citizens of mainland China or among the Arab World? We've got work to do, and the Lord can make all of those places open for missionary work, and work mighty miracles for us, if we are willing to be more obedient to his commandments
Missionary work won't be completed until AFTER New Jerusalem. So these places could receive the gospel after the major war and cleansings (these cleansings are different than the battle of Armageddon)
Zion won't need to ban them, because people will willingly not use them, nor will they have a desire to kill other people by any of the thousands of possible ways to commit murder. You also won't have secret combinations running around. The best analogy I have for this is the age of peace in the Americas following the Savior's appearance to the Nephites. They didn't need to legislate or enforce the law, because the people in the land no longer had any will to kill one another. However, we're far from that in terms of the conditions of the world right now, and since there are people who are treacherous, bloodthirsty, cowardly, and so on, it is understandable that people, both in and out of the church, can raise anything from a gun to a knife to hand-to-hand combat to defend their families.

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 9th, 2013, 10:55 pm
by Thomas
Many Jews rejected Chirst as the messiah because he was against violence towards the Romans, who had a tyranical rule over them. They had been taught that the messiah would lead an uprising against their evil oppressors. Christ not only taught to not fight the Romans but to love them as well. he taught to turn the other cheek and humbly submited himself to torture and death, when he had the power to destroy them all.

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 10th, 2013, 8:37 am
by TZONE
Yes i agree we will not willfully use them.
Many Jews rejected Chirst as the messiah because he was against violence towards the Romans, who had a tyranical rule over them. They had been taught that the messiah would lead an uprising against their evil oppressors. Christ not only taught to not fight the Romans but to love them as well. he taught to turn the other cheek and humbly submited himself to torture and death, when he had the power to destroy them all.
Thats my take as well. There is a scripture in the old testament I would try to share with some Jehovahs Witnesses (anti war 100%)...

"There is a time and season for that things... War). If we must fight we will know it to be right. If we must give up guns we will be shown it to be right. (Confiscate them i doubt it, but willingly give them up)

Follow the spirit as someone said earlier.

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 23rd, 2013, 7:50 pm
by jlgprovo
WE ARE AS THE ARMIES OF HELAMAN!

As you may know, the Utah Sheriffs' Association has recently written a letter to President Obama, declaring that they are willing to fight to the death, if necessary, in order to protect and defend the U.S. Constitution and the Right to Bear Arms that it guarrantees.

(Link to Letter Here: http://www.utahsheriffs.org/USA-Home_fi ... tter_1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

We, the Citizens of Utah, elected our Sheriffs. We are proud of them for their commitment to the U.S. Constitution and to their Oaths of Office.

Consistent with the U.S. Constitution, we seek only to protect our Domestic Tranquility and our Second Amendment Rights from whomever conspires to violate either of them.

To the extent that we are forced, by misguided and dishonest federal agents, into a position of using our firearms or other forceful methods, in defense of our Domestic Tranquility and/or our Second Amendment Rights, we will do so with the full knowledge and confidence that the U.S. Constitution not only permits, but actually upholds and enshrines into Law, our God-Given and natural rights to do so.

The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land. No President, nor any federal agent, is above the Constitution itself. In fact, to paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, the entire federal government, including the President, is "bound by the chains of the Constitution." And, the Constitution says, quite clearly, that the right to bear arms "shall not be infringed."

Furthermore, it takes three-fourths of the State Legislatures to amend the U.S. Constitution. Unless and until that happens, we claim our rights, under the U.S. Constitution, to defend our Domestic Tranquility and our Second Amendment Rights, with force if necessary, from all enemies, foreign and domestic, including even officials of the U.S. Government who violate their Oath to the Constitution and attempt to violate our Second Amendment Rights and/or our Domestic Tranquility.

If this President and his administration cannot be trusted to obey their Oaths of Office, as the proud and noble Sheriffs of Utah do, then it falls upon us, the People, to join with our local law enforcement officers to enforce the U.S. Constitution from the grass roots. Indeed, this is very clearly the intent of the Second Amendment to begin with, when it describes the purpose of individual firearms ownership as "being necessary for the security of a free State." Any other interpretation of this clause is treason against the United States Constitution and will be treated as such within the borders of our free State.

Like the armies of Helaman, we will be protected and victorious in this mission. Why? Because it is right. Both God and the Constitution of the United States are on our side.

Jonathan L. Gal, Provo, UT

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 23rd, 2013, 7:51 pm
by jlgprovo
Although it would be with great sadness and family strife, I just might consider becoming a Utah Baptist, if the Prophet commanded that all Mormons turn in their guns to the feds.

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 23rd, 2013, 8:00 pm
by jlgprovo
***Edited by moderator***

Look, if the LDS Church continues to allow the federal government to use unconstitutional bullying (federal threats against the tax-deductibility of contributions) to push us around, then there is not much point in being a Mormon at all.

I am so proud of BYU. It is one of the only colleges in the country that does not take federal dollars. That is something to be proud of. And, we are much better for it, because that prevents them from using their money to influence our values.

My advice to the Prophet is to stand on Principle. Take your case to the Supreme Court, if necessary. And, if the Supreme Court fails to do its job and uphold our freedom of religion, then we, the People, will enforce our Freedom of Religion for ourselves.

And, if it comes to that, you can bet your bottom dollar that we will need our personal firearms.

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 23rd, 2013, 8:03 pm
by jlgprovo
I am praying that Heavenly Father will, by revelation and through the Prophet, change the Articles of Faith to read that we submit to the Constitution, but not to Presidents and Kings and Dictators.

That will clarify things, I think. Our allegiance should be to the U.S. Constitution, not to the U.S. President, and definitely not to Kings and Dictators, etc.

To the extent that the U.S. President violates the Constitution, as this one has done so many times, our Articles of Faith should make it clear that our allegiance is to the document itself, not to the current officials when they deviate from the document.

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 23rd, 2013, 9:28 pm
by jlgprovo
Col. Flagg wrote:We believe that God inspired the Founding Fathers with their writing of the Constitution, right? We believe the Constitution to be divine, right? The Constitution (specifically the 2nd amendment) allows for the right to bear arms, right? The Bill of Rights gives us that right, right? Thus, if the church ever attempted to persuade its members to give up their guns to the feds, it would be violating what God wanted, right? Therefore, I conclude that any direction from our church to hand in our guns for whatever reason would be coming from man and not from on high. The Lord knew exactly why the right to bear arms had to be in there and it wasn't for hunting, self-defense or target-practice... it was to prevent government from becoming oppressive, tyrannical and able to force its will on the people without resistance.
Yes, but I would correct one point.

The Bill of Rights does not GIVE US the right to self defense and arms. That is our natural, god-given right. It comes from nature, or God. Take your pick. Either way, it is an inherent right of every individual. The Bill of Rights "enshrines it into law" ... or, perhaps better said ... the Bill of Rights "protects those rights from being taken away by the government."

Or, at least, that is what it is supposed to do.

But, the more interesting, and important question, is, what do the People do when the government ignores the Bill of Rights and tries to take away your firearms and/or your religion and/or your right to a fair trial??

Do you just submit and say, "fine, OK, I'm not going to get into a gunfight, or a trial, on these matters. Just take my rights away, and I will be quiet."

Do you submit to the infringement and then challenge it in court, in the end accepting whatever judgement those 9 individuals on the Supreme Court make?

Or, do you fight at the point of arrest ... or attempted arrest ... as David Koresh did at Waco?

Or, do you hide your weapons somewhere, and then pretend you don't have any when the agents come around?

Or, do you do what the colonists did in 1775? Do you form a coordinated militia ... a band of armed citizens ... to arrest and/or otherwise prevent the federal agents from taking away your rights?

What makes these questions so interesting is that the American Revolution began with an attempt by the British King to disarm the colonists. The Battle of Lexington & Concord was all about gun control. The Brits were on their way to the colonial arms depot in Concord, when they were met with a coordinated band of colonists who fought them and prevented them from taking the weapons.

That's why I say that gun control is where the rubber meets the road, as far as the Constitution goes.

Noone has ever before, in the history of these United States, succeeded at disarming Americans; and I doubt very much that Obama will be the first to do so.

Even the event at Waco, TX can hardly be described as a victory for the gun grabbers. They got a grand total of 12 rifles from that compound, and it cost the gun grabbers over 170 lives, not to mention the financial costs to the U.S. Treasury. That's 170 /12 = 14.17 lives per rifle.

There are over 300 Million firearms in America. At that rate, it would take 4.25 Billion lives to seize every American firearm. The federal government is powerful, but it certainly cannot muster that many people, especially not in a 4 year Presidential term. Plus, it will be a PR nightmare for the administration. And, Americans don't want to kill other Americans. There will be defections from the ranks of the gun grabbers. Whether they are DHS or even US military, they will not be able to maintain high morale amongst the troops. It will fall apart, and it will spawn a very violent backlash, like the OK City bombing. Obama might even get impeached or assassinated along the way, as he should if he continues to violate his Oath to the Constitution.

Gun control is not only unconstitutional and immoral. It is very expensive and it is just plain stupid policy. The government is already $16T in debt.

Re: If the Church called for giving up your guns would you d

Posted: January 23rd, 2013, 10:35 pm
by Thomas
Revelation 13:

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.