LDS Freedom Forum

InfoWarrior82 wrote:OR... The lost 10 tribes will bring with them ultra technology that will render all other modern day weaponry completely obsolete.

BYOW. Who says we won't have our own doing it?
Put a little more faith and money in Dr. Jones' outfits! :ymparty:

sigh. What part of "those who refuse to take up arms against their neighbor (kill people) will flee to Zion (where no killing takes place)" is difficult to understand? What part of the higher law of faith and love, where the very earth will obey and defend, is difficult to understand? No wonder we are still mired in violence and darkness; we cannot see the light even when it stares us in the face. We are determined to slay others, even in Zion. A guarantee, by the way, that such-minded people will never live in a true Zion unless they change their perspective.

A Random Phrase wrote:sigh. What part of "those who refuse to take up arms against their neighbor (kill people) will flee to Zion (where no killing takes place)" is difficult to understand? What part of the higher law of faith and love, where the very earth will obey and defend, is difficult to understand? No wonder we are still mired in violence and darkness; we cannot see the light even when it stares us in the face. We are determined to slay others, even in Zion. A guarantee, by the way, that such-minded people will never live in a true Zion unless they change their perspective.

When Zion is established, yes, all violence will cease. However, it is possible to defend, yet not have your heart focused on bloodshed. I do admire Captain Moroni for that fact, he found plenty of decent opportunities to offer the enemy peace, make them chicken out of a fight, and offer them a peaceful solution, only when they really stubbornly wanted to fight, and the condemnation ultimately came on them for not taking Moroni's alternate offer. I have mentioned before that I'm all open to whatever the prophets, seers, and revelators, have to say, I wouldn't even mind praying to the Lord to confirm their message. What's more important is who would even listen to them at all in the fateful hour, and who wouldn't.

Yes, Benjamin. The thing I think I'm seeing in some of the posts, though, is that in Zion people will be killing others in self-defense. That just doesn't fit the scriptures. Between now and then, before we reach that point, I can see defending ourselves. Until we are purified and are bona fide Zion people, earth will probably not fight our battles for us. If we are trying to be righteous, heaven might help us as we seek to defend ourselves - or heaven might warn us to leave (Lehi, Nephi, one of the Jaredite kings). Perhaps I am misunderstanding, and people are not really saying that, in Zion, people will have to kill other people to keep from being killed - because, if people are killing others, they are not Zion (though they may be righteous to some degree - I would certainly consider Captain Moroni righteous, for example).

A Random Phrase wrote:sigh. What part of "those who refuse to take up arms against their neighbor (kill people) will flee to Zion (where no killing takes place)" is difficult to understand? What part of the higher law of faith and love, where the very earth will obey and defend, is difficult to understand? No wonder we are still mired in violence and darkness; we cannot see the light even when it stares us in the face. We are determined to slay others, even in Zion. A guarantee, by the way, that such-minded people will never live in a true Zion unless they change their perspective.

This may be off topic a little, nevertheless, we're talking about protection of our life by sending the wicked off to hell a little earlier. So is taking life from someone any different today than it was in Nephi's day? We have many Labans and many other wicked people around us right now. Why was murder justified back then and not now?

We are told "thou shalt not kill" yet all except eight people were killed by water.

This is not presented as my own doctrine, I'm just wondering.

Benjamin_LK wrote:

A Random Phrase wrote:sigh. What part of "those who refuse to take up arms against their neighbor (kill people) will flee to Zion (where no killing takes place)" is difficult to understand? What part of the higher law of faith and love, where the very earth will obey and defend, is difficult to understand? No wonder we are still mired in violence and darkness; we cannot see the light even when it stares us in the face. We are determined to slay others, even in Zion. A guarantee, by the way, that such-minded people will never live in a true Zion unless they change their perspective.

When Zion is established, yes, all violence will cease. However, it is possible to defend, yet not have your heart focused on bloodshed. I do admire Captain Moroni for that fact, he found plenty of decent opportunities to offer the enemy peace, make them chicken out of a fight, and offer them a peaceful solution, only when they really stubbornly wanted to fight, and the condemnation ultimately came on them for not taking Moroni's alternate offer. I have mentioned before that I'm all open to whatever the prophets, seers, and revelators, have to say, I wouldn't even mind praying to the Lord to confirm their message. What's more important is who would even listen to them at all in the fateful hour, and who wouldn't.

I think everyone is missing the dichotomy here:
Last Days/Zion (D&C 45) is an unique setting - and it happens to be the only setting in scripture where the saints in general are commanded to/shown as NOT fight(ing) but to rely on the Lord for protection (though Enoch and Moriancumer both are said to have moved mountains and rivers in defense of their peoples - without specific scriptural mention of command to NOT take up arms).

Captain Moroni, Mormon, Nephi, Gideon, Moses, Abraham, David, etc - all were either commanded by the Lord to (kill) fight for their peoples, or else the prophets relayed instructions from the Lord to them/blessed their efforts.

Apples and Oranges.

Context, context, context...

To add to what you said, even those who were commanded by the Lord to fight, still tried and offered opportunities to the enemy to find peace, and sought for opportunities to reduce, if not avoid bloodshed. If I recall correctly, Moroni armed the prisoners in the city of Gid, and then sought, with success, to intimidate the enemy out of a fight. David set up an oath to a man who sought to attack him with stones, named Shimei, so that if he worked no more against the kingdom, he would be spared.

The act and the heart of the person both count. I would be open to whatever the command is. However, until then, I will appeal for a right by the populace of the nation and the world, for a right to defend themselves and their property, and for government to presume a proper role in protecting and keeping the peace of it's citizens.

freedomfighter wrote:

A Random Phrase wrote:sigh. What part of "those who refuse to take up arms against their neighbor (kill people) will flee to Zion (where no killing takes place)" is difficult to understand? What part of the higher law of faith and love, where the very earth will obey and defend, is difficult to understand? No wonder we are still mired in violence and darkness; we cannot see the light even when it stares us in the face. We are determined to slay others, even in Zion. A guarantee, by the way, that such-minded people will never live in a true Zion unless they change their perspective.

This may be off topic a little, nevertheless, we're talking about protection of our life by sending the wicked off to hell a little earlier. So is taking life from someone any different today than it was in Nephi's day? We have many Labans and many other wicked people around us right now. Why was murder justified back then and not now?

We are told "thou shalt not kill" yet all except eight people were killed by water.

This is not presented as my own doctrine, I'm just wondering.

It wasn't murder for Nephi to kill Laban, because fulfillment of the Lord's commandments is not unlawful. However, had Nephi tried to kill Laban and Lemuel, which would have been without the authorization of the Lord, that would have been murder. The important part about the whole story was the fact that Nephi did not have it in his heart to kill somebody as an answer to a problem, in fact, starting with at least Doctrine and Covenants Section 98, one should not be so thirsty after bloodshed, as even there, defense of a genuine threat to one's family, or a long history of injustice, and diplomatic appeal, should be sought after before you even think of trying violence against an enemy, or simply retaliation, even then, the Lord will bless you more if you seek beyond what he expects of you.

We should not hope or wish for someone to be condemned to hell, we should be hoping for even some of the most awful and unrighteous individuals to repent. However, when defense, and divine justification come into play, we may do it, but the actual death and fate of the enemy should not be celebrated so much as the fact that the Lord allowed you to be delivered from total destruction.

Benjamin_LK wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:

A Random Phrase wrote:sigh. What part of "those who refuse to take up arms against their neighbor (kill people) will flee to Zion (where no killing takes place)" is difficult to understand? What part of the higher law of faith and love, where the very earth will obey and defend, is difficult to understand? No wonder we are still mired in violence and darkness; we cannot see the light even when it stares us in the face. We are determined to slay others, even in Zion. A guarantee, by the way, that such-minded people will never live in a true Zion unless they change their perspective.

This may be off topic a little, nevertheless, we're talking about protection of our life by sending the wicked off to hell a little earlier. So is taking life from someone any different today than it was in Nephi's day? We have many Labans and many other wicked people around us right now. Why was murder justified back then and not now?

We are told "thou shalt not kill" yet all except eight people were killed by water.

This is not presented as my own doctrine, I'm just wondering.

It wasn't murder for Nephi to kill Laban, because fulfillment of the Lord's commandments is not unlawful. However, had Nephi tried to kill Laban and Lemuel, which would have been without the authorization of the Lord, that would have been murder. The important part about the whole story was the fact that Nephi did not have it in his heart to kill somebody as an answer to a problem, in fact, starting with at least Doctrine and Covenants Section 98, one should not be so thirsty after bloodshed, as even there, defense of a genuine threat to one's family, or a long history of injustice, and diplomatic appeal, should be sought after before you even think of trying violence against an enemy, or simply retaliation, even then, the Lord will bless you more if you seek beyond what he expects of you.

We should not hope or wish for someone to be condemned to hell, we should be hoping for even some of the most awful and unrighteous individuals to repent. However, when defense, and divine justification come into play, we may do it, but the actual death and fate of the enemy should not be celebrated so much as the fact that the Lord allowed you to be delivered from total destruction.

Are not the wicked children of hell?

Alma 11:23
23 Now Amulek said: O thou child of hell, why tempt ye me? Knowest thou that the righteous yieldeth to no such temptations?

Matthew 23:15
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Alma 54:11
11 But behold, it supposeth me that I talk to you concerning these things in vain; or it supposeth me that thou art a child of hell; therefore I will close my epistle by telling you that I will not exchange prisoners, save it be on conditions that ye will deliver up a man and his wife and his children, for one prisoner; if this be the case that ye will do it, I will exchange.

What could cause the Prophet to advise members to comply with further restrictions or requirements on gun possession I can think of only one possibility: an ultimatum to the Prophet to advise members to comply under threat of retribution for not doing so.

lundbaek wrote:What could cause the Prophet to advise members to comply with further restrictions or requirements on gun possession I can think of only one possibility: an ultimatum to the Prophet to advise members to comply under threat of retribution for not doing so.

YES.
There will likely be a time in the not-to-distant future where the PTB (Fed Gov or International) give an Ultimatum to the First Presidency to give to the membership of the Church:

Hand over your weapons
Take the chip (Mark of Beast?)
Receive the full vaccination spectrum / or a super vaccine
marry gays in your temples /full fellowship
give women the priesthood / call as apostles
hand over all your food storage/production facilities
hand over or liquidate all assets - particularly cash
Cease missionary work world-wide
Accept the New World Order
Accept the Anti-Christ
Close the Temples

Any one of these possible ultimatums, if refused would almost certainly result in immediate persecutions/terrorist acts/bombings/ kidnappings/assassinations, etc against Church leaders, missionaries,temples, chapels, etc.
Once the persecutions turn to disenfranchisement against the members themselves (do these things or lose your job, money, house, food, go to prison, etc), the members will start howling, demanding the FP and 12 comply with the PTB...and they will quickly leave the Church...and soon be taken out by violence, plague, natural disasters, etc...

HeirofNumenor wrote:

lundbaek wrote:What could cause the Prophet to advise members to comply with further restrictions or requirements on gun possession I can think of only one possibility: an ultimatum to the Prophet to advise members to comply under threat of retribution for not doing so.

YES.
There will likely be a time in the not-to-distant future where the PTB (Fed Gov or International) give an Ultimatum to the First Presidency to give to the membership of the Church:

Hand over your weapons
Take the chip (Mark of Beast?)
Receive the full vaccination spectrum / or a super vaccine
marry gays in your temples /full fellowship
give women the priesthood / call as apostles
hand over all your food storage/production facilities
hand over or liquidate all assets - particularly cash
Cease missionary work world-wide
Accept the New World Order
Accept the Anti-Christ
Close the Temples

Any one of these possible ultimatums, if refused would almost certainly result in immediate persecutions/terrorist acts/bombings/ kidnappings/assassinations, etc against Church leaders, missionaries,temples, chapels, etc.
Once the persecutions turn to disenfranchisement against the members themselves (do these things or lose your job, money, house, food, go to prison, etc), the members will start howling, demanding the FP and 12 comply with the PTB...and they will quickly leave the Church...and soon be taken out by violence, plague, natural disasters, etc...

I ask, would God have had the church come this far to allow it to be destroyed by a crooked government now? Somehow I don't think so. And if this is God's true church He will not allow temples to be closed, gay marriage in the temples, or missionary work to cease. He made a promise in the Book of Mormon...If you stay righteous you will prosper in the land. Another one is...there will never be a king over this people. And if anyone takes upon themselves the mark of the beast they shall perish. So...what are we worried about?

From my perspective, we're placing too much emphasis on "The Church," which is a telestial entity, intended merely to point us in the right direction. The Church of the Firstborn, the Celestial counterpart, is what we need to better understand and strive for. And I think we often completely misunderstand the concept of "if ye keep my commandments, ye will prosper," and what that phrase really means. The best example I can give of where I am coming from is Lehi -- who the Lord repeated that phrase to continually. Yet from the time Lehi left Jerusalem until he died, his life was very, very challenging, and full of hardship and heart-ache (reference 2 Nephi 2:1). Based on my personal searching of the scriptures (and especially the writings and experiences of Nephi, etc.), my pondering, prayer, and the ways the eyes of my understanding have been opened, my current interpretation of this phrase is that the word "commandments" refers to God's promptings, and commandments to us personally and individually through the Spirit (which is what Lehi and Nephi continually received), and the word "prosper" may not have anything whatsoever to do with temporal, financial prosperity as we typically think it does. Although Lehi was very challenged temporally and financially as he obeyed all the commandments of the Lord to him individually, he prospered spiritually -- and that is what I believe it means. One of the things I have learned through personal experience and observation is that one of the greatest ways the Lord can "bless" us spiritually is with temporal challenges.

What we, including the Church, have to be worried about, is that we are not keeping our part of the bargain. If we are "righteous" we will prosper? Who says that in the Lord's eyes we are righteous? I realize that when we compare ourselves to the World, we're tempted to consider ourselves worthy of that characterization, but I think if we compare who and what we are with what the Lord really expects, we would come to a far different conclusion. The best example of what our reaction ought to be is Mosiah 4:1-2.

freedomfighter wrote:

HeirofNumenor wrote:

lundbaek wrote:What could cause the Prophet to advise members to comply with further restrictions or requirements on gun possession I can think of only one possibility: an ultimatum to the Prophet to advise members to comply under threat of retribution for not doing so.

YES.
There will likely be a time in the not-to-distant future where the PTB (Fed Gov or International) give an Ultimatum to the First Presidency to give to the membership of the Church:

Hand over your weapons
Take the chip (Mark of Beast?)
Receive the full vaccination spectrum / or a super vaccine
marry gays in your temples /full fellowship
give women the priesthood / call as apostles
hand over all your food storage/production facilities
hand over or liquidate all assets - particularly cash
Cease missionary work world-wide
Accept the New World Order
Accept the Anti-Christ
Close the Temples

Any one of these possible ultimatums, if refused would almost certainly result in immediate persecutions/terrorist acts/bombings/ kidnappings/assassinations, etc against Church leaders, missionaries,temples, chapels, etc.
Once the persecutions turn to disenfranchisement against the members themselves (do these things or lose your job, money, house, food, go to prison, etc), the members will start howling, demanding the FP and 12 comply with the PTB...and they will quickly leave the Church...and soon be taken out by violence, plague, natural disasters, etc...

I ask, would God have had the church come this far to allow it to be destroyed by a crooked government now? Somehow I don't think so. And if this is God's true church He will not allow temples to be closed, gay marriage in the temples, or missionary work to cease. He made a promise in the Book of Mormon...If you stay righteous you will prosper in the land. Another one is...there will never be a king over this people. And if anyone takes upon themselves the mark of the beast they shall perish. So...what are we worried about?

Have you read the scriptures lately? Or the news?

InfoWarrior82 wrote:

HeirofNumenor wrote:

lundbaek wrote:What could cause the Prophet to advise members to comply with further restrictions or requirements on gun possession I can think of only one possibility: an ultimatum to the Prophet to advise members to comply under threat of retribution for not doing so.

YES.
There will likely be a time in the not-to-distant future where the PTB (Fed Gov or International) give an Ultimatum to the First Presidency to give to the membership of the Church:

Hand over your weapons
Take the chip (Mark of Beast?)
Receive the full vaccination spectrum / or a super vaccine
marry gays in your temples /full fellowship
give women the priesthood / call as apostles
hand over all your food storage/production facilities
hand over or liquidate all assets - particularly cash
Cease missionary work world-wide
Accept the New World Order
Accept the Anti-Christ
Close the Temples

Any one of these possible ultimatums, if refused would almost certainly result in immediate persecutions/terrorist acts/bombings/ kidnappings/assassinations, etc against Church leaders, missionaries,temples, chapels, etc.
Once the persecutions turn to disenfranchisement against the members themselves (do these things or lose your job, money, house, food, go to prison, etc), the members will start howling, demanding the FP and 12 comply with the PTB...and they will quickly leave the Church...and soon be taken out by violence, plague, natural disasters, etc...

Have you read the scriptures lately? Or the news?

Why? You're telling the story. What's your point? But I found this: http://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and- ... r?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

D&C 38:9, 15. “The Enemy Shall Not Overcome”
President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:

“He has given to us the kingdom. He has made us the promise that the enemy of the kingdom shall not overcome. We may have trouble. We have had trouble. We may meet with opposition, but that opposition shall fail in its endeavor to destroy the work of God.

“The gospel has been restored, and the kingdom given to his saints according to the prophecy of Daniel. It is not again to be removed, destroyed, or given to other people, and in his own way and time he is going to break down all other systems, that his kingdom may prevail and that he may come and reign as Lord of lords and King of kings upon the face of the whole earth.

“The Lord has called attention to the fact that he is going to destroy systems and organizations and combinations that are false. And how is he going to do it? By giving their members the truth, if they will receive it; by giving them the privilege of coming out of those organizations to receive the truth and have every opportunity to come into his kingdom, for his hand is outstretched ready to greet them. If they will not come; if they will not receive his message; then, of course, they must fall with their systems. Truth will prevail; truth will stand when all else is removed, and it is destined to cover the face of the earth.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:241.)

The Gospel and Church not being destroyed is not the same thing as them not being heavily persecuted and/or suppressed. Yes, it is true that they won't be taken off the earth again as after the Apostasy (Jerusalem and Nephites) - i.e. Rev 12 Woman fleeing into the wilderness with the baby....yet in Rev 13 we read that the first beast has power to make war against the Saints, the Temple, and those that dwell in Heaven...and apparently will overcome them for 3 1/2 years (either literal or figurative time of chaos).

Depending on where you find it, I have seen that Heber C Kimball, J Golden Kimball, and/or Spencer W Kimball have stated that: "The Time will come when you cannot exist on borrowed light [of another's testimony]." Meaning that times will get so tough that you have to have your own lamp [life] filled with the oil of testimony - otherwise you will not be able to endure the trials of the last days and will fall away. You will have to know for yourself the truthfulness of the Gospel and Church, and not live off of your parents' testimony, but fully cultivate and strengthen your own.

HeirofNumenor wrote:The Gospel and Church not being destroyed is not the same thing as them not being heavily persecuted and/or suppressed. Yes, it is true that they won't be taken off the earth again as after the Apostasy (Jerusalem and Nephites) - i.e. Rev 12 Woman fleeing into the wilderness with the baby....yet in Rev 13 we read that the first beast has power to make war against the Saints, the Temple, and those that dwell in Heaven...and apparently will overcome them for 3 1/2 years (either literal or figurative time of chaos).

Depending on where you find it, I have seen that Heber C Kimball, J Golden Kimball, and/or Spencer W Kimball have stated that: "The Time will come when you cannot exist on borrowed light [of another's testimony]." Meaning that times will get so tough that you have to have your own lamp [life] filled with the oil of testimony - otherwise you will not be able to endure the trials of the last days and will fall away. You will have to know for yourself the truthfulness of the Gospel and Church, and not live off of your parents' testimony, but fully cultivate and strengthen your own.

If that's the case, then it's uncool, ignorant, or bigoted to be a member of the church, this isn't something that the highest echelons of government in the U.S. are preaching, but notable, "learned" individuals in society certainly are, for example, Richard Dawkins, and, near the end of his life Christopher Hitchens. We're already in that stage where it's uncool to be a member of the church, it's just a question of how long this drags on, and who really has enough of a testimony to make all this worldly dislike worth it.

freedomfighter wrote:

HeirofNumenor wrote:

lundbaek wrote:What could cause the Prophet to advise members to comply with further restrictions or requirements on gun possession I can think of only one possibility: an ultimatum to the Prophet to advise members to comply under threat of retribution for not doing so.

YES.
There will likely be a time in the not-to-distant future where the PTB (Fed Gov or International) give an Ultimatum to the First Presidency to give to the membership of the Church:

Hand over your weapons
Take the chip (Mark of Beast?)
Receive the full vaccination spectrum / or a super vaccine
marry gays in your temples /full fellowship
give women the priesthood / call as apostles
hand over all your food storage/production facilities
hand over or liquidate all assets - particularly cash
Cease missionary work world-wide
Accept the New World Order
Accept the Anti-Christ
Close the Temples

Any one of these possible ultimatums, if refused would almost certainly result in immediate persecutions/terrorist acts/bombings/ kidnappings/assassinations, etc against Church leaders, missionaries,temples, chapels, etc.
Once the persecutions turn to disenfranchisement against the members themselves (do these things or lose your job, money, house, food, go to prison, etc), the members will start howling, demanding the FP and 12 comply with the PTB...and they will quickly leave the Church...and soon be taken out by violence, plague, natural disasters, etc...

I ask, would God have had the church come this far to allow it to be destroyed by a crooked government now? Somehow I don't think so. And if this is God's true church He will not allow temples to be closed, gay marriage in the temples, or missionary work to cease. He made a promise in the Book of Mormon...If you stay righteous you will prosper in the land. Another one is...there will never be a king over this people. And if anyone takes upon themselves the mark of the beast they shall perish. So...what are we worried about?

As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't find it beyond the reach of the church to separate itself in certain points where neccessary from the law of the land, such as no longer asking for the marriage license to accompany the temple wedding ceremony, or accepting the closing down of the educational institutions such as BYU, and so on, if that has to be the case. I certainly don't hope so, but I am pretty confident that the church would sacrifice whatever neccessary to keep it's freedom to be practiced.

@freedomfighter

Wickedness does make one a child of hell, in doing it. However, it's important to note that such a person can also repent of such a condition, and the false doctrines, and unrighteous actions, and not the person deserve the extreme dislike.

HeirofNumenor wrote:The Gospel and Church not being destroyed is not the same thing as them not being heavily persecuted and/or suppressed. Yes, it is true that they won't be taken off the earth again as after the Apostasy (Jerusalem and Nephites) - i.e. Rev 12 Woman fleeing into the wilderness with the baby....yet in Rev 13 we read that the first beast has power to make war against the Saints, the Temple, and those that dwell in Heaven...and apparently will overcome them for 3 1/2 years (either literal or figurative time of chaos).

Depending on where you find it, I have seen that Heber C Kimball, J Golden Kimball, and/or Spencer W Kimball have stated that: "The Time will come when you cannot exist on borrowed light [of another's testimony]." Meaning that times will get so tough that you have to have your own lamp [life] filled with the oil of testimony - otherwise you will not be able to endure the trials of the last days and will fall away. You will have to know for yourself the truthfulness of the Gospel and Church, and not live off of your parents' testimony, but fully cultivate and strengthen your own.

This I agree with whole heartedly.

freedomfighter wrote:

HeirofNumenor wrote:The Gospel and Church not being destroyed is not the same thing as them not being heavily persecuted and/or suppressed. Yes, it is true that they won't be taken off the earth again as after the Apostasy (Jerusalem and Nephites) - i.e. Rev 12 Woman fleeing into the wilderness with the baby....yet in Rev 13 we read that the first beast has power to make war against the Saints, the Temple, and those that dwell in Heaven...and apparently will overcome them for 3 1/2 years (either literal or figurative time of chaos).

Depending on where you find it, I have seen that Heber C Kimball, J Golden Kimball, and/or Spencer W Kimball have stated that: "The Time will come when you cannot exist on borrowed light [of another's testimony]." Meaning that times will get so tough that you have to have your own lamp [life] filled with the oil of testimony - otherwise you will not be able to endure the trials of the last days and will fall away. You will have to know for yourself the truthfulness of the Gospel and Church, and not live off of your parents' testimony, but fully cultivate and strengthen your own.

This I agree with whole heartedly.

Thank you FreedomFighter... I thought we were thinking along the same lines, but maybe focused on different aspects of the same picture...

Benjamin_LK wrote:@freedomfighter

Wickedness does make one a child of hell, in doing it. However, it's important to note that such a person can also repent of such a condition, and the false doctrines, and unrighteous actions, and not the person deserve the extreme dislike.

Yes, some people could repent but will they? There are a lot of Korihors in this world, bent on taking your freedom and liberty away so you can be ruled over having no ability to resist. Satan has the hearts of many wicked people that are too far gone. Remember Hitler, Musilini and others? How about those who do evil, who seem to thrive on it.

If Americans do not wake up and take a stand soon the results will be enslavement to a tyrannical government. The writing is on the wall for those that look.

After all, the BoM tells us to be aware of latter-day Gadiantons. And these Gads want you and I under their control.

HeirofNumenor wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:

HeirofNumenor wrote:The Gospel and Church not being destroyed is not the same thing as them not being heavily persecuted and/or suppressed. Yes, it is true that they won't be taken off the earth again as after the Apostasy (Jerusalem and Nephites) - i.e. Rev 12 Woman fleeing into the wilderness with the baby....yet in Rev 13 we read that the first beast has power to make war against the Saints, the Temple, and those that dwell in Heaven...and apparently will overcome them for 3 1/2 years (either literal or figurative time of chaos).

Depending on where you find it, I have seen that Heber C Kimball, J Golden Kimball, and/or Spencer W Kimball have stated that: "The Time will come when you cannot exist on borrowed light [of another's testimony]." Meaning that times will get so tough that you have to have your own lamp [life] filled with the oil of testimony - otherwise you will not be able to endure the trials of the last days and will fall away. You will have to know for yourself the truthfulness of the Gospel and Church, and not live off of your parents' testimony, but fully cultivate and strengthen your own.

This I agree with whole heartedly.

Thank you FreedomFighter... I thought we were thinking along the same lines, but maybe focused on different aspects of the same picture...

For me, it is unclear as to just where the saints will be overcome or how many. Could it just be those in the far east, or America as well? I thought the Promised Land was supposed to stay free because this is where Christ will reign. Does anyone have a clear picture as to the extent of the Saints being overcome?

freedomfighter wrote: Why? You're telling the story. What's your point? But I found this: http://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and- ... r?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

D&C 38:9, 15. “The Enemy Shall Not Overcome”
President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:

“He has given to us the kingdom. He has made us the promise that the enemy of the kingdom shall not overcome. We may have trouble. We have had trouble. We may meet with opposition, but that opposition shall fail in its endeavor to destroy the work of God.

“The gospel has been restored, and the kingdom given to his saints according to the prophecy of Daniel. It is not again to be removed, destroyed, or given to other people, and in his own way and time he is going to break down all other systems, that his kingdom may prevail and that he may come and reign as Lord of lords and King of kings upon the face of the whole earth.

“The Lord has called attention to the fact that he is going to destroy systems and organizations and combinations that are false. And how is he going to do it? By giving their members the truth, if they will receive it; by giving them the privilege of coming out of those organizations to receive the truth and have every opportunity to come into his kingdom, for his hand is outstretched ready to greet them. If they will not come; if they will not receive his message; then, of course, they must fall with their systems. Truth will prevail; truth will stand when all else is removed, and it is destined to cover the face of the earth.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:241.)

Sorry, I misread and thought you said the government wouldn't be destroyed. The church will remain, but the current government will not.

I think that that we will voluntarily give up all weapons of war. Every last one of them and we won't care if we die or not after all the killing witnessed by those going to Zion.

Same story as the Anti-Lehi-Nephites. They layed down and were slain and worshipped God. Their wives and children were not protected by their husbands taking up arms they were protected by the Lord softening their enemies hearts.

The Anti-Lehi-Nephites were so disgusted with their own behavior and the killings, they repented, said "the Lords will" and never looked back. Those people never became a wicked people and every last one of them remained steadfast in the Lord.

I wonder how much we'll have to witness before we don't care whether we live or die?