DIVORCE--what would you say?

[JohnnyL]

I'm not necessarily suspecting anything deeper or hidden to the situation. Just that which is obvious: for her divorce was preferable to making other changes in her life, such as *GASP* a change in employment. I have this theory that if you won't work and sacrifice for the Lord's blessings then you won't wind up with them.

Absolutely. On top of that, she broke her covenants. "They were just SOOOOO inconvenient!" Either way (ends up with him or not), there will first be hell to pay.

[JohnnyL]

there will be a "divorce" for every couple who do NOT live up to their covenants

IIRC, according to BY, no. Unless there is murder or worse, it will just be very painful for a while. Then they will be redeemed.

[jdawg1012]

Yes, and Christ said that Moses gave the people that provision (as I just posted for you) because the people were too wicked to keep His laws, not because it was just cause. That's exactly my point, thanks for posting.

Whatever. It's quite clear that is NOT the case. You're misunderstanding the scriptures, and avoiding the bold, italicized, underlined, red part (sorry, I tried to make it bigger too, but...). Jesus is not preaching Moses in the Sermon on the Mount, is He?[/quote]

For all the technicolor misinterpretation, the subject of your quotation is when adultery is committed, not one jot or tittle says divorce is acceptable before the Lord. Church policy is not the same as Church Doctrine. Show me where it says divorce is good, acceptable to God (not the law), right, just, lovely, or any things else. It never, ever says so. That scripture says if they're put away for any reason other than fornication, they're committing adultery. It in no way says that it's acceptable, I just showed you what Christ said about that above, and I didn't need Ted Turner's help to do it.

[JohnnyL]

No, it's a serious "game" which is why women, who have lost their husband, can be sealed again to another husband after their previous husband has passed away. Agency. You are aware that the wife CAN remarry once her husband dies, right? It's doctrinal.

Usually for time only. And the scriptures were very clear about the wife getting remarried - in fact it was an absolute commandment that she marry his brother, whether he was previously married or not. But God changed his mind on that so that's a section of the bible that should be ignored.

If the first husband was a twit and the second husband is wonderful then why not allow the wife agency to choose which spouse for eternity?

Without any input from the guy?

In all the cases that I'm aware of (very limited), once the first husband has died the wife will remarry for time only, IF she decides to remarry at all.

There were various cases back in the JS/BY days. No word on whether the guys were twits or not.

The answers were given in a previous post by lgr3065, which are in the blue handbook (#1).

[mingano]

The answers were given in a previous post by lgr3065, which are in the blue handbook (#1).

God doesn't want me to have access to the blue handbook.

[jdawg1012]

The answers were given in a previous post by lgr3065, which are in the blue handbook (#1).

God doesn't want me to have access to the blue handbook.

I literally LOL'd.

[shadow]

The answers were given in a previous post by lgr3065, which are in the blue handbook (#1).

God doesn't want me to have access to the blue handbook.

I think it's online.

[mingano]

I think it's online.

It may be online, but if God wanted me to have access to it then he would have told the people in SLC to make it available to me.

In the end that kind of thing is so incredibly not my problem - and I gave up even trying to understand it when I met a family who had people sealed to the wrong other people and were told by the temple workers that it didn't make a difference and that there was no procedure or policy to make any kind of corrections. (That completely blew my stupid little mind and shattered some clearly erroneous beliefs that I had held.)

[JohnnyL]

I think it's online.

It may be online, but if God wanted me to have access to it then he would have told the people in SLC to make it available to me.
In the end that kind of thing is so incredibly not my problem - and I gave up even trying to understand it when I met a family who had people sealed to the wrong other people and were told by the temple workers that it didn't make a difference and that there was no procedure or policy to make any kind of corrections. (That completely blew my stupid little mind and shattered some clearly erroneous beliefs that I had held.)

Naw, don't believe everything a temple worker tells you!
There are.

[mingano]

Naw, don't believe everything a temple worker tells you!
There are.

It wasn't a temple worker but the family themselves. I don't recall the exact details but they were doing a proxy sealing that involved one of those complicated families (divorce + remarriage + adoption) and somehow somebody got sealed to the wrong parent. The temple worker told them that it didn't matter who you were sealed to as long as you were sealed to somebody.

Since we have no idea how sealings actually work or what difference they actually make (apparently none during mortality at least) it is easy to just let it go and figure everything out later on. But at the time I was completely blown away as I thought it was much more important than that.

[shadow]

Naw, don't believe everything a temple worker tells you!
There are.

Good advice. I'd also suggest that you don't believe everything a person tells you that a temple worker said (2nd hand info). I'll go out on a limb here and suggest there was a misunderstanding. For marriage sealings, it certainly does matter and any Temple worker will tell you that. As far as simply being sealed to family, true, it doesn't really matter. I know, some young mother just gasped.

[mingano]

For marriage sealings, it certainly does matter and any Temple worker will tell you that. As far as simply being sealed to family, true, it doesn't really matter. I know, some young mother just gasped.

With just a few clicks on google I found a woman who reports that due to some sloppy research one of her ancestors was sealed as man/wife to a girl who died in infancy. There is no known way to correct this error in mortality.

Here are a couple of other complicated situations:

Im adopted, my biological father gave up parental rights and my stepdad adopted my brother and I so he and my mom could take us to be sealed in the temple to them. I am sealed to my "step"father who is my legal father, but we are estranged. He was an abusive pedophile and will never be in my life or that of my children. My biological father, on the other hand, has met my kids, is a really good person despite his struggles with addiction, and his whole side of the family are wonderful amazing people. They are LDS and my grandparents (grandmother is deceased) were sealed. We have never lost contact with my biological dad's side of the family, they are the best people I know. BUT. does the fact that im adopted by and sealed to my "sd" mean I am NOT connected to them in any way now, and basically I am stuck with loser dad and his equally loser family who we have NOTHING to do with, my grandfather on that side was a horrible person even worse than my "sd", and have no ties with my biological family... I, personally, think this is a horrible thing and quite unfair. It makes me profoundly sad to think that my mother chose to take away my biological family, although I know she did what she thought was best and right, and she couldn't see the future obvioulsy, but still, was it fair or right for her to be allowed to make that choice for me and my brother?

My dad is dealing with a similar situation...his older sibs want to be sealed to their Biodad and biomom (both are dead). Dad and another sib want to be sealed to stepdad and biomom (stepdad is also dead). So their mom is being sealed to both, and Dad will be sealed to stepdad, and the others can do as they wish. We have no idea if any of the 3 parents will even accept the gospel in the next life, and I am SURE that Grandma will not accept a sealing to her first husband whom she divorced for a reason. Does that mean those sibs will be left unsealed, since they will be sealed to the "wrong" person?

I know of a family where the mother was married previously, didn't have her sealing dissolved, got remarried (in a civil ceremony), had children with her new husband... and guess what? The children are sealed to her and her first husband... even though they aren't his children! The bishop even checked with "higher-ups" and they said it doesn't matter, because it's not about the kids being "with" their parents in the hereafter... it's about them having the ordinances needed for eternal blessings.

The last post in that thread pretty much sums it up though:

I agree that HF will work this all out in the end. And I'm thankful we don't have to worry about all that because it is very complicated.

[shadow]

The quote you bolded and underlined is what sums it up. Other than getting marriages corrected, the other stuff isn't complicated.

it's not about the kids being "with" their parents in the hereafter... it's about them having the ordinances needed for eternal blessings.

[mingano]

The quote you bolded and underlined is what sums it up. Other than getting marriages corrected, the other stuff isn't complicated.

it's not about the kids being "with" their parents in the hereafter... it's about them having the ordinances needed for eternal blessings.

So, getting into the deep doctrine, what does being sealed actually accomplish? How does it make a difference? How does it work? If you live your life without ever having churchgoing parents who do you get sealed to and when?

[shadow]

"Never forget that these little ones are the sons and daughters of God and that yours is a custodial relationship to them; that He was a parent before you were parents and that He has not relinquished His parental rights or interest in these His little ones." -Pres. Hinckley

[HeirofNumenor]

Im adopted, my biological father gave up parental rights and my stepdad adopted my brother and I so he and my mom could take us to be sealed in the temple to them. I am sealed to my "step"father who is my legal father, but we are estranged. He was an abusive pedophile and will never be in my life or that of my children. My biological father, on the other hand, has met my kids, is a really good person despite his struggles with addiction, and his whole side of the family are wonderful amazing people. They are LDS and my grandparents (grandmother is deceased) were sealed. We have never lost contact with my biological dad's side of the family, they are the best people I know. BUT. does the fact that im adopted by and sealed to my "sd" mean I am NOT connected to them in any way now, and basically I am stuck with loser dad and his equally loser family who we have NOTHING to do with, my grandfather on that side was a horrible person even worse than my "sd", and have no ties with my biological family... I, personally, think this is a horrible thing and quite unfair. It makes me profoundly sad to think that my mother chose to take away my biological family, although I know she did what she thought was best and right, and she couldn't see the future obvioulsy, but still, was it fair or right for her to be allowed to make that choice for me and my brother?

Talk to the Temple President about this situation. You yourself might be able to file to break the sealing to your stepdad and be sealed to your biological father.

The other thing to consider is that individual agency and personal worthiness (as well as repentance) play a big part is the final arrangement of things. As you said,

We have no idea if any of the 3 parents will even accept the gospel in the next life,

And also that your stepdad was pedophile, etc....

There will a lot of gaps in the sealing chains that will need to be closed up tighter to the next worthy ancestor, due to individuals either not accepting the gospel, or not being willing to live it here or there... But we generally will not know hearts and minds until we get to the other side, and also we are not the ones who pronounce judgement. Many active Christians will say "Lord, Lord" and many active LDS will be surprised when they are assigned to the Terrestrial Kingdom because they were not valiant enough, were slackers/coasted, hypocritical, hearts set too much on worldliness, materialism, keeping up with the Joneses (as opposed to doing good with their income), etc... Those sealings will also be broken and the chains closed up tighter...

[jbalm]

Kind of begs the question Mingano was asking. What is the point of doing this stuff now? Sounds like it just creates more work later in order to fix all the problems.

[shadow]

Kind of begs the question Mingano was asking. What is the point of doing this stuff now? Sounds like it just creates more work later in order to fix all the problems.

Yep, such an imperfect plan.

Some of those problems aren't problems. It doesn't matter who you're sealed to (non-marriage sealing) so long as you're sealed. Becoming an heir is the point of the sealing. But us mortals are so sensitive and ignorant that we have to tell God that we don't like the covenant we've been born into or sealed into, that we want another progenitor.
Maybe if our parents were lousy we could get a mulligan? "Hey God, my parents were stupid so I'm gonna kill myself and I expect you to send me back to the premortal world so I can be reassigned some new parents. And God, I want good parents this time!"
I'm almost tempted to tell some people to give it a try! OK, I'm kidding.

[HeirofNumenor]

Kind of begs the question Mingano was asking. What is the point of doing this stuff now? Sounds like it just creates more work later in order to fix all the problems.

When sealings to deceased family members first started, many people were being sealed to Joseph Smith and other leaders. Brigham Young stopped that practice and told the people to be sealed to their own parents.

At the start of baptisms for the dead in 1800's, men were being baptized for women, women for men... until that was corrected.

For most of the LDS Church's history, when a couple were sealed and the husband dies early, the woman was not allowed to be sealed to another man - ever, and any kids that came from a second marriage were counted as the first husbands...even if the man died in the first year of marriage, and the wife lived another 70 years and completely bonded to/raised a family with the second husband. Now, a woman is allowed to be sealed to the second man also, and she will have to choose in the next life, at least by the time judgements/assignments to kingdoms are issued.

Also, in cases of divorce, the woman had to get the ex-husband's permission to have the sealing cancelled so she could be sealed to a new (and presumably more righteous/loving) husband. Too many men were vindictively denying this permission in attempts to hold the ex-wife back. So the Church changed this to each spouse had to write out his/her thoughts & feelings on the former spouse remarrying. Again, too many men (and some women) refused to send in their comments, thus preventing the other from being sealed again. So once again the Church modified it, and now the other only has to be given a reasonable length of time to offer comment, and if they delay/ignore/refuse the request - tough tooties...the other former spouse get's sealed as desired.

So much of things depends on how we behave here, and our desires there. And occasionally the Lord has His servants officially modify the procedure to best deal with widespread human failings.

[HeirofNumenor]

Kind of begs the question Mingano was asking. What is the point of doing this stuff now? Sounds like it just creates more work later in order to fix all the problems.

The other aspect to answer this is: that frequently quoted verse about turning the hearts of the children to the fathers, and vice-versa....

We need to seek them out, do service, become saviours on Mount Zion...in turn, they help us from beyond the veil with inspiration, guidance, prayers on our behalf to help us get through our lives and accomplish our missions (as I was told recently...can't give you a source, but it fits the Gospel as I understand it).

As for doing sealings for the living (couples and families) - the temple ordinances give strength and power to those who make those covenants AND live up to them. Especially a marriage sealing.....hence the push to have all the youth/young adults/singles get sealed in the temple from the start.


Of course for some it is best they get married civilly first, prove their commitment to the Gospel (new converts) or worthiness (repentant sinners either single or married) then get sealed 1 year later.

[jbalm]

Thank you Heir.

[HeirofNumenor]

You are welcome, JBalm
*bowing graciously, yet humbly*

[FoxMammaWisdom]

The quote you bolded and underlined is what sums it up. Other than getting marriages corrected, the other stuff isn't complicated.

it's not about the kids being "with" their parents in the hereafter... it's about them having the ordinances needed for eternal blessings.

So, getting into the deep doctrine, what does being sealed actually accomplish? How does it make a difference? How does it work? If you live your life without ever having churchgoing parents who do you get sealed to and when?

Mingano your questions are awesome - I for one, appreciate you asking these things that many others are afraid to approach!

It is ALL symbolic - it's not the REAL endowment, we are not ACTUALLY brought into the presence of the Lord at the end of the two hours, it's not the REAL sealing to a spouse, we do not ACTUALLY at that time become kings/queens, priests/priestesses, it's not the REAL sealing to parents, etc. Just like baptism by water is symbolic of baptism by fire, the laying on of hands FOR the gift of the Holy Ghost is symbolic of RECEIVING the Holy Ghost or the First Comforter, other ordinances are symbolic of their spiritual counterparts. Those physical ordinances may be sealed by the HG at that time, but they may also be ratified at a later time, or not at all if it is not supposed to be.

So because of the inadequacies of man, all kinds of ordinances and such are at times, performed improperly; without authority, without power, for the wrong people, etc. But they are only symbolic. That is what's important. They POINT us to the TRUE ordinances - which are their spiritual counterparts. These physical ordinances we "act out", are to teach us and guide us to the real thing. So while they are important for us to be doing and learning, they are not the "real thing" until they are ratified by the Holy Spirit of Promise. So for those who have been sealed improperly, or who received the endowment in the temple unworthily, or whatever else the case may be, it will be "fixed" in the Millennium, and the true spiritual ordinance will be SEALED by the Holy Ghost.

[AussieAmerican]

By reading the general comments I wonder how many people have experienced divorce. For years I viewed marriage as if it were written in stone. For years I did everything I could to save my marriage. One thing I have learned is that I cannot control the choices of an other person, especially those of a spouse. He too has to learn by the things he suffers and it is a painful experience, especially all the years trying for that eternal family. When the Lord releases you from the obligations of that marriage it is not anyone's business to sit on the webpage and state what should and should not happen. As stated by Alma, your responsibility is not to judge but to mourn with those that mourn, comfort those that stand in need of comfort etc. People who suffer divorce see life's dream of that eternal family pass from before their eyes and it is a death that is to be mourned over. A great loss has occurred. Regardless of what we suffer, whether abuse or an unfaithful spouse, the loss of that eternal family is huge and takes a significant amount of time to mourn its loss.

[Etosha]

"People who suffer divorce see life's dream of that eternal family pass from before their eyes and it is a death that is to be mourned over. A great loss has occurred. Regardless of what we suffer, whether abuse or an unfaithful spouse, the loss of that eternal family is huge and takes a significant amount of time to mourn its loss".

Very well said Aussie - it is devastating - the loss of that eternal family.