DIVORCE--what would you say?

[JohnnyL]

What principles/ guidelines would you give?

And yeah, "listen to the Spirit", "pray", etc.--got that, checked. Now, for the other stuff...

Cheating? How much, far, long?
Drugs?
Spending money, can't stop?
Obsessive, compulsive disorders?
Trouble with the law?
Abuse? How much, far, long?
Differences in belief?
"Irreconcilable differences"?

Civil divorce only? Temple sealing annulment? When ok to get sealed to another?

[jdawg1012]

What principles/ guidelines would you give?

And yeah, "listen to the Spirit", "pray", etc.--got that, checked. Now, for the other stuff...

Cheating? How much, far, long?
Drugs?
Spending money, can't stop?
Obsessive, compulsive disorders?
Trouble with the law?
Abuse? How much, far, long?
Differences in belief?
"Irreconcilable differences"?

Civil divorce only? Temple sealing annulment? When ok to get sealed to another?

This is only going to be my opinion, but I'll give it a shot. I come from a family with a lot of divorce (mom was married 3 times, all her siblings were married multiple times, etc. etc.). I know of no reason that God condones for divorce (including adultery), but I think that it's better than murdering one another. I have friends who could barely stand one another, but waited until all their kids grew up, then divorced (a fair option, if you really have to do it, I suppose).

I'll try them line by line:

Cheating? How much, far, long?:
-Cheating is not, in my opinion, an excuse to get a divorce. If your spouse runs off, however, and refuses to come back after a substantial period, then it's time to move on. This is of particular note, because we, as saints, are the wives of Christ. Make no mistake, how you deal with a cheating spouse will, in fact, directly relate to your own relationship with your own Bridegroom at judgement day. Israel, as a whole,is often unfaithful to Christ, her husband, and so are you, guaranteed.

Drugs?
-Depends on what you mean by "drug," how it's used, how its affecting life, etc. I'd suggest rehab first, but in general unless all other methods of coping/mending were exhausted, it's not even a consideration.

Spending money, can't stop?
-That's complicated, but I'd still say not an excuse for divorce, under any circumstances. This is something that one should have screen for before marriage, but not always possible. Eventually you'll hit rock bottom and face reality. I have personal experience (spouse) with money issues of this nature. It's been resolved. While it's a bummer, it's no excuse for divorce, IMHO.

Obsessive, compulsive disorders?
-Try treatment, or an exorcism. If everything fails, I guess it would depend on if the issue led to serious violence. Other than that, nope, not an excuse.

Trouble with the law?
-This is vague and ambiguous. But in general, and barring something like treason or murder, I'd say "nay."

Abuse? How much, far, long?
-Many of the things called abuse today aren't really. Wives abusing their husbands is real, and to a lesser extent, husbands abusing their wives. In some cultures physical violence between couples is the norm, but it's generally not that severe. I don't know that I condone that, but this is an issue that's taken out of context. Men and women shouldn't hit one another, women shouldn't rebel against their husbands, and men shouldn't fail to provide for their wives. All of these are abuse, but not necessarily, in my opinion grounds for divorce. Life threatening situations are a different story (For example women are several times more likely to use a weapon).

Differences in belief?
-Should have been screened long before marriage, but it can happen. Couples should pretty well be one, if they're living according to Gospel principles. An old gentleman once told me long ago "If a couple is arguing in marriage, then they're usually both wrong, and should pray about it together." I've not had many issues in marriage where I was "wrong" in a disagreement, and virtually every argument was resolved through prayer. Usually companion prayer has done the trick, almost always. If the father keeps his role as head and patriarch of the family, and a woman sustains him, this seldom, if ever, is an issue.

"Irreconcilable differences"?
-This is code for "I'm selfish and proud," and NOT an excuse for divorce.

Civil divorce only? Temple sealing annulment? When ok to get sealed to another?
-A priesthood leader once explained the temple sealing thusly "It's a sealing to God, more than one another. Even if a link drops out, the more important is the linking back to Heavenly Father." While people have many emotions during divorce that incite them to hatred, My personal view, if that it's a civil divorce only, unless a woman marries another and wants to be sealed to him instead. I don't see anything meaningful about a waiting period between sealings.

[Fielding]

I would like to hear the other side of the story. Well, actually I wouldn't. All I can say is any moron can get a divorce. Getting divorced requires not intelligence or skill. It requires intelligence and skill to save a marriage.

[jdawg1012]

I would like to hear the other side of the story. Well, actually I wouldn't. All I can say is any moron can get a divorce. Getting divorced requires not intelligence or skill. It requires intelligence and skill to save a marriage.

I remember reading once on lds.org a statement that went something like "There's not a single divorce, where both people couldn't have done something better." I absolutely and whole-heartedly believe that. Even worse is that BOTH people will carry the fault into the next marriage. People are only more likely to divorce again with each divorce. Generally people blame each other, never resolving their own issues. It leaves a string of conflict and heartbreak.

Divorce used to carry a measure of ostracism with it. We can thank the feminist movement for eliminating that.

[jdawg1012]

What does the Lord say? It's not for any of us to decide in any circumstance. I'll save the million examples on both sides. Follow the spirit. Period.

Sadly people that are contemplating divorce often have lost the ability to listen to the Spirit. Divorce, I daresay, is never "Best" (or therefore God's will) but it can be better than things like killing one another. If one is resolved to do the wrong thing, it's probably ostensibly better to do the wrong thing that hurts the fewest people.

[braingrunt]

What does the Lord say? It's not for any of us to decide in any circumstance. I'll save the million examples on both sides. Follow the spirit. Period.

He already said this is not all the answer he wants; he gets this part, but rightly, I think, believes there are guiding principles and would like us to chime in on them. The spirit speaks best when we study out in our minds the guiding principles, and in fact I daresay we can't follow the spirit, period, without searching. Perhaps by reading each other's understandings by the spirit, new truths can come to all of us.

One of my understandings is this: each person can only bear what they can bear. This reality must be carefully balanced with unselfishness and desire to do God's will. If a person is suffering too much due to wickedness, something must be done; counseling maybe; separation maybe; maybe divorce. I'm open to refining my opinion.

[MsEva]

If both parties will agree, I would suggest to seek counseling right away. Who you go to is up to you. I would also suggest seeking counseling even if it's just you that go. I know I am going to be the "black sheep" of the group....I actually do believe divorce can be for the best. I'll give a little background...my parents had a very tumultuous marriage; my father was a severe alcoholic and well, it just wasn't good. He owned a bar and wanted my sister and I to work in the bar when we grew up....that was when my mom said *$#^$^$#*$^&$ NO WAY and left. And yes, I do believe and know other people who were directed from the Lord to divorce....Everyone is going to have limits to what they will and will not put up with. You are the only one that will know how much you can take. That's why I suggest you seek to talk to a counselor to help you work through what's going on with both sides. Some of the things you listed can be worked through IF Both of you are Willing to WORK at what it is going to take to get the marriage back on track; to work on yourselves individually and learning what is needed to bring the two of you back together as a couple....hope that helps, sorry if not..

[jbalm]

What principles/ guidelines would you give?

And yeah, "listen to the Spirit", "pray", etc.--got that, checked. Now, for the other stuff...

Cheating? How much, far, long?
Drugs?
Spending money, can't stop?
Obsessive, compulsive disorders?
Trouble with the law?
Abuse? How much, far, long?
Differences in belief?
"Irreconcilable differences"?

Civil divorce only? Temple sealing annulment? When ok to get sealed to another?

You forgot chunking up. I say 35 pounds, max.

[Jason]

What principles/ guidelines would you give?

And yeah, "listen to the Spirit", "pray", etc.--got that, checked. Now, for the other stuff...

Cheating? How much, far, long?
Drugs?
Spending money, can't stop?
Obsessive, compulsive disorders?
Trouble with the law?
Abuse? How much, far, long?
Differences in belief?
"Irreconcilable differences"?

Civil divorce only? Temple sealing annulment? When ok to get sealed to another?

It hath been written, that whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/12?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SpeedRacer]

You forgot chunking up. I say 35 pounds, max.

Most of my ward would be divorced. Just saying.

Make no mistake, how you deal with a cheating spouse will, in fact, directly relate to your own relationship with your own Bridegroom at judgement day. Israel, as a whole,is often unfaithful to Christ, her husband, and so are you, guaranteed.

Well said. I could only justify it if the circumstance impaired my ability to follow the spirit. This is generally only true of severe abuse. How horrid to think of such situations.

[skmo]

What principles/ guidelines would you give?

That's like asking "What is the best Sci-Fi movie ever? It's amatter of individual interest. I cannot say how much infidelity would destroy another person's ability to overcome, nor can I predict how much abuse a person can overcome. I've known couples who have been divorced over 1 affair and I've seen marriages where one or both spouses have had many, many affairs but worked through the challenge and stayed together. I've seen one spouse abuse another to the point that the law should have been involved but the person loved and forgave to work things out.

Each person must choose for themselves based on their own strengths and weaknesses, their sense of propriety and the input of the Holy Spirit.

[jdawg1012]

It hath been written, that whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/12?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's nothing new under the sun!

[Shimdidly]

It hath been written, that whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.

I don't understand this scripture. Why would divorce cause the wife to commit adultery? If she's divorced, she can no longer "cheat" on her husband. And why would marrying a formerly divorced woman be adultery? I know a lot of people in church that have married exes. Does this mean they are unworthy for a while?

[MsEva]

It hath been written, that whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.

I don't understand this scripture. Why would divorce cause the wife to commit adultery? If she's divorced, she can no longer "cheat" on her husband. And why would marrying a formerly divorced woman be adultery? I know a lot of people in church that have married exes. Does this mean they are unworthy for a while?

From what I understand it has to do with when Moses was bringing the tribes of Israel across the desert and the jews wanted to leave their spouses for someone else and not give a bill of divorcement and the two verses before the one given are these:

7They said unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?

8He said unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts allowed you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Indeed, that Moses gave a command regarding divorce is an undeniable fact. The fact that he “suffered” something does not change the fact of the command, and “command” and “suffered” cannot both be about the same matter. What Moses “suffered” was the Jews putting way their wives. There simply was no punishment for it. Such putting away resulted in adultery against their wife (covenant breaking, Mark 10:11) but such sin was not the same as where a man would commit adultery with “another man’s wife.” (Remember, men were allowed to have more than one wife.) Although Moses commanded that a “writ of divorcement” be given there was never a punishment associated with merely putting a wife away; thus the practice continued among men who were “hard hearted” and wanting to keep the dowry they received from the woman’s family and/or not wanting to allow the women to “be another man’s wife.”
However, many argue that “put away” means divorce and they proceed to explain Jesus’ teachings as if He was talking about legal divorce. Thus, they have Moses permitting something and at the same time commanding it. Therefore we see inconsistency in their thinking and error in their practice because truth does not contradict itself. Those who want the truth must reject the idea that “put away” means divorce. When one understands the Mosaic text under consideration when Jesus spoke and that “put away” simply means what it says (what we English speaking people understand it to mean), he will be on his way to a clear understanding of what Jesus really taught and be able to accept and harmonize the plain teaching of Paul as found in 1Tim. 4:1-4; 1Cor. 7:2, 8, 9, 27, 28, with Jesus’ teaching.

I know the Lord is serious about marriage covenants yet, I also know the Lord knows each of individually and knows we are human and in some cases things turn for the worse and a marriage will end. It is between those people and the Lord.

[skmo]

...I know the Lord is serious about marriage covenants yet, I also know the Lord knows each of individually and knows we are human and in some cases things turn for the worse and a marriage will end. It is between those people and the Lord.

+1 to this, and I'd add it's between the couple and the Lord and no one else. Ancillary people involved need to be respectful of the situation and not add misery to either side. The couple is responsible to do the best thing for any children involved, but otherwise outsiders need to remember that they are just that:

OUTSIDE.

[MsEva]

...I know the Lord is serious about marriage covenants yet, I also know the Lord knows each of individually and knows we are human and in some cases things turn for the worse and a marriage will end. It is between those people and the Lord.

+1 to this, and I'd add it's between the couple and the Lord and no one else. Ancillary people involved need to be respectful of the situation and not add misery to either side. The couple is responsible to do the best thing for any children involved, but otherwise outsiders need to remember that they are just that:

OUTSIDE.

Exactly, I agree with you!

[JohnnyL]

What does the Lord say? It's not for any of us to decide in any circumstance. I'll save the million examples on both sides. Follow the spirit. Period.

Sadly people that are contemplating divorce often have lost the ability to listen to the Spirit. Divorce, I daresay, is never "Best" (or therefore God's will) but it can be better than things like killing one another. If one is resolved to do the wrong thing, it's probably ostensibly better to do the wrong thing that hurts the fewest people.

Marriage is a choice full of choices that mortals make. Being together can be bad, especially if someone's bad. Being married, but separated, is different. But if worse choices would come from that, it would probably be better to be divorced.

Jesus says fornication is cause for a just divorce. I would be interested in knowing the meaning/ intent of the original word.

[jdawg1012]

What does the Lord say? It's not for any of us to decide in any circumstance. I'll save the million examples on both sides. Follow the spirit. Period.

Sadly people that are contemplating divorce often have lost the ability to listen to the Spirit. Divorce, I daresay, is never "Best" (or therefore God's will) but it can be better than things like killing one another. If one is resolved to do the wrong thing, it's probably ostensibly better to do the wrong thing that hurts the fewest people.

Marriage is a choice full of choices that mortals make. Being together can be bad, especially if someone's bad. Being married, but separated, is different. But if worse choices would come from that, it would probably be better to be divorced.

Jesus says fornication is cause for a just divorce. I would be interested in knowing the meaning/ intent of the original word.

Show me where Jesus said anything like that. What he did say was this:

7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?

8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

What He said was that that Moses only gave them a provision for divorce because of the hardness of their hearts (wickedness/refusal to keep His laws), AND further reiterated it that it wasn't that way from the beginning (can also be read as it was NEVER that way prior-the language can mean either), and that if a woman does get a divorce should someone marry her, they then are committing adultery too. This implies that to God there's no such thing as a divorce, but we'll have to wait until the hereafter to find that out for certain.

There's no "just cause" for divorce. Don't mistake current church policy, whether in Moses' time, or ours, for Church doctrine. Polygyny exercised through proper channels and by proper priesthood authority is church doctrine also, but it's not current church policy.

But if worse choices would come from that, it would probably be better to be divorced.

What I said. If you're going to choose out of bad choices "it's probably ostensibly better to do the wrong thing that hurts the fewest people."

[JohnnyL]

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

[singyourwayhome]

[JohnnyL]

If both parties will agree, I would suggest to seek counseling right away. Who you go to is up to you. I would also suggest seeking counseling even if it's just you that go. I know I am going to be the "black sheep" of the group....I actually do believe divorce can be for the best. I'll give a little background...my parents had a very tumultuous marriage; my father was a severe alcoholic and well, it just wasn't good. He owned a bar and wanted my sister and I to work in the bar when we grew up....that was when my mom said *$#^$^$#*$^&$ NO WAY and left. And yes, I do believe and know other people who were directed from the Lord to divorce....Everyone is going to have limits to what they will and will not put up with. You are the only one that will know how much you can take. That's why I suggest you seek to talk to a counselor to help you work through what's going on with both sides. Some of the things you listed can be worked through IF Both of you are Willing to WORK at what it is going to take to get the marriage back on track; to work on yourselves individually and learning what is needed to bring the two of you back together as a couple....hope that helps, sorry if not..

Good advice.
I would change, though, the counseling part, especially for certain situations. I've seen it make bad marriages worse. In some cases separate counseling is much better. Or videorecording/ voice recording perspectives and sharing them like that.
I've also seen energy healing work wonders.

[MsEva]

If both parties will agree, I would suggest to seek counseling right away. Who you go to is up to you. I would also suggest seeking counseling even if it's just you that go. I know I am going to be the "black sheep" of the group....I actually do believe divorce can be for the best. I'll give a little background...my parents had a very tumultuous marriage; my father was a severe alcoholic and well, it just wasn't good. He owned a bar and wanted my sister and I to work in the bar when we grew up....that was when my mom said *$#^$^$#*$^&$ NO WAY and left. And yes, I do believe and know other people who were directed from the Lord to divorce....Everyone is going to have limits to what they will and will not put up with. You are the only one that will know how much you can take. That's why I suggest you seek to talk to a counselor to help you work through what's going on with both sides. Some of the things you listed can be worked through IF Both of you are Willing to WORK at what it is going to take to get the marriage back on track; to work on yourselves individually and learning what is needed to bring the two of you back together as a couple....hope that helps, sorry if not..

Good advice.
I would change, though, the counseling part, especially for certain situations. I've seen it make bad marriages worse. In some cases separate counseling is much better. Or videorecording/ voice recording perspectives and sharing them like that.
I've also seen energy healing work wonders.

That is true, I am sure in cases it does make bad marriages worse. What type specific type of energy healing are you talking about?

[mingano]

I know a couple who were divorced (civilly) for no reason other than that the wife was tired of being married. No abuse, no neglect, no cheating, no fighting - she traveled a lot for her job though - she just didn't want to be married anymore. She still loves the guy and intends to spend eternity with him, but being married was just too much of an inconvenience and she didn't think it was fair to him. (She completely blindsided him with the filing, but there was otherwise no drama or fighting or any contention of any kind so it was over in however many months that state required). It happened so quickly that she called up her mother in law and said something like "don't hate me, but we're divorced now and it wasn't his fault".

She is still single and uses his name. He found somebody else and almost set a record with obtaining clearance to be sealed to a second living woman, the FP quickly rubber stamped their OK - the first sealing was not cancelled nor will it ever be and a polygynous relationship is 100% expected in the next life.

[JohnnyL]

I know a couple who were divorced (civilly) for no reason other than that the wife was tired of being married. No abuse, no neglect, no cheating, no fighting - she traveled a lot for her job though - she just didn't want to be married anymore. She still loves the guy and intends to spend eternity with him, but being married was just too much of an inconvenience and she didn't think it was fair to him. (She completely blindsided him with the filing, but there was otherwise no drama or fighting or any contention of any kind so it was over in however many months that state required). It happened so quickly that she called up her mother in law and said something like "don't hate me, but we're divorced now and it wasn't his fault".

She is still single and uses his name. He found somebody else and almost set a record with obtaining clearance to be sealed to a second living woman, the FP quickly rubber stamped their OK - the first sealing was not cancelled nor will it ever be and a polygynous relationship is 100% expected in the next life.

I doubt that.

[mingano]

JohnnyL - what do you doubt? He married wife #2 in the temple (not possible without FP approval). First wife had no objections and still uses his name. There was no sin so no excommunication and church policy is to leave the sealings intact unless there is a very good reason not to. First wife must give consent to any subsequent sealings if she is alive and she had no objections whatsoever.

So on exactly which point are you calling me a liar here?