Santa not welcome again at the Ward Christmas Party

[Darren]

The Ward Christmas Party/Dinner is coming for us on December 9th, 2012 and my wife and I are thinking about boycotting it as it is becoming just another stuffy church meeting, albeit with food.

Last year our leadership decided to uninvite Santa and his regular role at the end of the party as the merry visitor bearing treats and instead shift hard right to a more solemn theme and a central focus on Christ. This year it is getting even more so, as they have decided to have the Dinner right after our Sunday meetings, and again emphasize a central focus on Christ.

What is your ward doing this year? And what is the role of Santa at your party?

Is there room for Santa in your Ward Christmas Party? Or will Santa put your Ward Leadership on the "Naughty" list.

In The Santa Clause 2 movie Charlie Calvin defaces lockers and walls with Christmas messages about Principal Newman's lack of Christmas Spirit at his school. Principal Newman is way to focused as an educator and the institution of education to allow the distractions of Christmas to happen under her watch.

Are we in the Church failing our children, by being overly obsessed in supplying a solemn Christ centered Christmas? How about a little fun, and lighten up a bit?

Santa is a personification of Jesus Christ and children just want to have joy and find belief in goodness, like our non-member friends find in the broader message of that Holiday.

Or should we be more like the Jehovah Witnesses and close out the world, cover the windows, to keep ourselves from seeing anything else besides what is in our scriptures?

What do you think.

God Bless,
Darren

[skmo]

The historical idea of gifts during Yule is ancient, and for the most part shows goodness in the human spirit. Our modenr version of Santa is becoming more and more commercialized, though, and I can see why it would be out.

[RaVaN]

I think "Santa" is really Satan...my evidence?

Firstly, Santa is just an anagram of Satan

Secondly, he keeps a list of good and bad little girls and boys. To the good he brings gifts to tempt them into evil and to the bad he brings coal which is representative of hell they will go to.

Thirdly, the sterotypical Satan is dressed in red...ditto for Santa.

Fourthly, Old Nick and Saint Nick shows the same relationship as Santa and Satan.

Fifthly, lives at the North Pole...basicly running a frozen hell with elves(same as demons).

Sixthly, climbs out of the hearth, in wintertime, meaning he crawls out of the fire...sound like anything?


A bit tongue in cheek, but personally believe that the celebration of the birth of Christ gives enough joy than to add in what I consider silliness.

[Elizabeth]

I am interested to know how your leadership views Halloween?

[mingano]

At least your ward is focusing on Christ. I know many people who complain that their wards have completely replaced Christ with Joseph Smith, to the point where there was a Sunday that happened to be the 25th and the bishop said something along the lines of "everybody has been talking about Jesus at this time of year, so I thought it would be more appropriate to talk about the birth of our prophet, Joseph Smith" and that was the only mention on that day.

[Thomas]

Considering who your avatar is, I will not disagree with you.

[Darren]

I am interested to know how your leadership views Halloween?

No Halloween fun either. No trunk or treat. No corn mazes for the youth. No apples were attacked in the bobbing tank. Nothing.

Cultural Themes seem to always be Christ Centered, no room for proxy symbols or similes from our various cultures. Fun must be Christ Centered too or it is outlawed and "the letter of the law" when it comes to keeping activities Christ Centered, I'm sorry to say.

Time honored traditions are giving way to Scripture Centrist Thinking.

Darren

[MsEva]

I think "Santa" is really Satan...my evidence?

Firstly, Santa is just an anagram of Satan

Secondly, he keeps a list of good and bad little girls and boys. To the good he brings gifts to tempt them into evil and to the bad he brings coal which is representative of hell they will go to.

Thirdly, the sterotypical Satan is dressed in red...ditto for Santa.

Fourthly, Old Nick and Saint Nick shows the same relationship as Santa and Satan.

Fifthly, lives at the North Pole...basicly running a frozen hell with elves(same as demons).

Sixthly, climbs out of the hearth, in wintertime, meaning he crawls out of the fire...sound like anything?


A bit tongue in cheek, but personally believe that the celebration of the birth of Christ gives enough joy than to add in what I consider silliness.

Wow, I have never heard this before......

I love the Christmas season; the Music (especially the ones that are about the Savior), doing fun special things for family and friends (and not just at Christmastime, but we love doing secret Santa things for people; now I'm creeped out by the name Santa..lol), the lights/decorations..etc.....

I know my ward has done the Santa thing and also a few times without Santa. They had put together a play with adults and as many children as possible about the birth of Christ using scriptures from both the book of Mormon and the bible; it was very nice. I personally am not that wrapped up in Santa and I think there is a way to do a ward party without Santa and Christ-centered that is fun for the kids.

[ajax]

The Ward Christmas Party/Dinner is coming for us on December 9th, 2012 and my wife and I are thinking about boycotting it as it is becoming just another stuffy church meeting, albeit with food.

As a kid, I remember these parties being a lot more fun, whether Halloween, Christmas etc. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong in adding a few cultural elements into our social gatherings.

At Halloween we like to be spooked a bit and dress up funny and give away candy. So what?
At Christmas we like to see the fat bearded man dressed in red being jolly and giving the kiddos hugs and candy. So what?

People need to let their hair down, kick their shoes off and enjoy the festivites every once in a while.

This is not to say the Christ should be supplanted, but it is cool when Santa shows up to celebrate Christ with us.

[ajax]

This thread brings to mind this:

From David O McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism, pg 22-23:

“Perfect people would be awfully tiresome to live with; their stained-glass view of things would seem a constant sermon without intermission, a continuous moral snub of superiority to our self-respect.”

And so, he gently chided Apostle John A Widsoe, whose wife advocated such a rigid interpretation of the Word of Wisdom as to proscribe chocolate because of the stimulants it contained, saying, “John, do you want to take all the joy out of life?”

It's a Christmas party, not a worship service.

[RaVaN]

My biggest issue with Santa during Christmas tends to be the dishonesty in it. You have grown adults knowingly telling a lie to children. When I was 5 or 6 I remember having an arguement with my grandparents about Santa. They did their best to convince me Santa existed and would bring me presents. It was really the wrong thing to try to do with a kid that was too smart for his own good, and it created a distrust for my grandparents. I remember the conversation pretty vividly:

Them: Santa is going to bring you presents
Me: Who is Santa
Them: He lives at the North Pole and brings presents to good boys and girls
Me: How does he know they have been good
Them:He watches you all the time all the year round
Me: Why does he watch me
Them: He watches everyone and if they have been good he comes down the chimney and brings them toys
Me: How can he get down our chimney, we have a kerosene heater and he will burn all up
Them: He won't come down your chimney then, he'll make himself very small and crawl under the door
Me: How does he make himself small
Them: He uses magic
Me: My dad says there is no such thing as magic
Them:Really?

The conversation really petered out after that. During the whole thing I was wondering why they would be lieing to me. I think about it now and it just strikes me as a semi-terrible thing for people in a position of trust to betray that trust like that...no matter how cutesy people think it is.
Granted, I was something of a real beast as a child, and remember far too much of it for my comfort.

[Gad]

My biggest issue with Santa during Christmas tends to be the dishonesty in it. You have grown adults knowingly telling a lie to children. When I was 5 or 6 I remember having an arguement with my grandparents about Santa. They did their best to convince me Santa existed and would bring me presents. It was really the wrong thing to try to do with a kid that was too smart for his own good, and it created a distrust for my grandparents. I remember the conversation pretty vividly:

Them: Santa is going to bring you presents
Me: Who is Santa
Them: He lives at the North Pole and brings presents to good boys and girls
Me: How does he know they have been good
Them:He watches you all the time all the year round
Me: Why does he watch me
Them: He watches everyone and if they have been good he comes down the chimney and brings them toys
Me: How can he get down our chimney, we have a kerosene heater and he will burn all up
Them: He won't come down your chimney then, he'll make himself very small and crawl under the door
Me: How does he make himself small
Them: He uses magic
Me: My dad says there is no such thing as magic
Them:Really?

The conversation really petered out after that. During the whole thing I was wondering why they would be lieing to me. I think about it now and it just strikes me as a semi-terrible thing for people in a position of trust to betray that trust like that...no matter how cutesy people think it is.
Granted, I was something of a real beast as a child, and remember far too much of it for my comfort.

Agreed. One should not lie to their children.

[ajax]

Agreed. One should not lie to their children.

Which is why all discussions with your kids of who Santa is should be hints that point to you as parents, always with a smile and wink.
Not hard.

[DRollingKearney]

Scripture Centrist Thinking.

God forbid! We wouldn't want to "live by every word which proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God" (D&C 98:11), now, would we? Traditions are much more important, as evidenced by Helaman 5:50-51: "And it came to pass that they did go forth, and did minister unto the people... insomuch that the more part of the Lamanites were convinced... And as many as were convinced did lay down... the tradition of their fathers."

But, I am apparently guilty of "Scripture Centrist Thinking", so what do I know?

[Darren]

We live in a world of symbols. We know nothing, except by symbols. We make a few marks on a sheet of paper, and we say that they form a word, which stands for love, or hate, or charity, or God or eternity. The marks may not be very beautiful to the eye. No one finds fault with the symbols on the pages of a book because they are not as mighty in their own beauty as the things which they represent. We do not quarrel with the symbol G-O-D because it is not very beautiful, yet represents the majesty of God. We are glad to have symbols, if only the meaning of the symbols is brought home to us. I speak to you tonight; you have not quarreled very much with my manner of delivery, or my choice of words; in following the meaning of the thoughts I have tried to bring home to you, you have forgotten words and manner. There are men who object to Santa Claus, because he does not exist! Such men need spectacles to see that Santa Claus is a symbol; a symbol of the love and joy of Christmas and the Christmas spirit. In the land of my birth there was no Santa Claus, but a little goat was shoved into the room, carrying with it a basket of Christmas toys and gifts.
We live in a world of symbols. No man or woman can come out of the temple endowed as he should be, unless he has seen, beyond the symbol, the mighty realities for which the symbols stand.” (John A. Widtsoe, "Temple Worship," Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, April 1921, p. 62)

Each year as Christmas comes around one problem that faces nearly everyone in the Christian world—parents especially—is the question of Santa Claus: “Should we continue to make Santa Claus a part of our Christmas celebration?” …

I have noticed that those who say they don’t want Santa in Christmas because he is a lie—a fictional character—seem to overlook another deception of a sort. That is, they overlook the fact that the Lord was not born on December 25; he was born on April 6, in the springtime “beauty of the lilies.” So maybe we shouldn’t be celebrating anything on December 25.

Frankly, it’s hard not to be cynical about the whole subject of Christmas these days. Nevertheless, I have seen a good balance at Christmastime where the worship of the Savior and the spirit of giving embodied in Santa Claus have worked very well together. Maybe it’s the balance that’s really important.
("What Shall We Do with Santa Claus?: A Roundtable", Ensign, Dec. 1976, 39)

[skmo]

Scripture Centrist Thinking.

God forbid! We wouldn't want to "live by every word which proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God" (D&C 98:11), now, would we? Traditions are much more important, as evidenced by Helaman 5:50-51: "And it came to pass that they did go forth, and did minister unto the people... insomuch that the more part of the Lamanites were convinced... And as many as were convinced did lay down... the tradition of their fathers."

But, I am apparently guilty of "Scripture Centrist Thinking", so what do I know?

I don't know you, but I would hope that you, like I would hope that all on these boards would be wise enough to understand about balance and harmony in life. Like the above quote from President McKay, there are many varieties of joy in life. Not all life can be centered around scripture, reality precludes it. It is true that we need to place central importance in our lives to the teachings in the scriptures, and we shouldn't allow our lives to fall away in the least degree of sin from the holy teachings, but life itself needs variety. Joy is a central need in life or we've failed to experience one of our purposes in coming here. We can enjoy the Holiday season without forsaking our belief in God, our faith in His Church, or our testimony of the true gospel.

The traditions of the Lamanites of wickedness aren't the same as the tradition of spreading Holiday cheer, in singing Christmas Carols around the neighborhood, of gathering to give gifts to friends and family in a celebration where we play games and remember the good things in life. No one is suggesting that we forsake our beliefs, or that we embrace sin and corruption, but to shut out the pleasant memories Christmas can bring is doing a disservice to people.

[MsEva]

I agree with balancing things in life. I can see where focusing to much on Santa can make it fall into commercialism/materialism but like skmo said about enjoying family time by Christmas caroling, playing games and giving gifts to family and friends; which is what we do too.

[jcricket6048]

I think "Santa" is really Satan...my evidence?

Firstly, Santa is just an anagram of Satan

Secondly, he keeps a list of good and bad little girls and boys. To the good he brings gifts to tempt them into evil and to the bad he brings coal which is representative of hell they will go to.

Thirdly, the sterotypical Satan is dressed in red...ditto for Santa.

Fourthly, Old Nick and Saint Nick shows the same relationship as Santa and Satan.

Fifthly, lives at the North Pole...basicly running a frozen hell with elves(same as demons).

Sixthly, climbs out of the hearth, in wintertime, meaning he crawls out of the fire...sound like anything?


A bit tongue in cheek, but personally believe that the celebration of the birth of Christ gives enough joy than to add in what I consider silliness.

if this is anything interesting take the word Santa and arrange the letters and it will be Satan? Is that interesting or what?

[Darren]

Scripture Centrist Thinking.

God forbid! We wouldn't want to "live by every word which proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God" (D&C 98:11), now, would we? Traditions are much more important, as evidenced by Helaman 5:50-51: "And it came to pass that they did go forth, and did minister unto the people... insomuch that the more part of the Lamanites were convinced... And as many as were convinced did lay down... the tradition of their fathers."

But, I am apparently guilty of "Scripture Centrist Thinking", so what do I know?

BELIEVE, look and you shall find.

The word "Religion" means to re-read, and re-read. "Church" is the Kingdom of the Keys, were we learn by working by the light of the Holy Ghost. Scripture Centrists over emphasize the words by doubting what is not written and fail to experience the true word, as can be had with a daily walk with a God.

I used to buy into the reteric that was against the Coca Cola styled Santa, I had a hard time raising my family on very limited income. That helped me to feel bitter with the whole modern Santa bit. My heart was hard and I was not looking for truth.

But I softened my heart when I found out so many of the grand truths about Santa Claus and the true roots to his legend, and how that ties into the Gospel.

Santa is quite literally a traditional memory of Jesus Christ, and that is what I tell my children.

Here is a dialogue I had with my linguist friend.

http://198.209.246.173/wit/fatherchristmas.mp3
TRANSCRIPT:

Oathin took Set-apart Night, then the first 12 days of the Solar New Year, that is the Yuletide.

The point is, it was from the year of his birth, not the day of his birth.
And so that is the ancient Nordic, but then the catholics get a hold of it, and they say, "Oh, He was born at Yuletide."

And then they have this Sinter Claus, this funny looking old man, but it was Oathin who went around behind the reindeer, up in Scandinavia in a sleigh, and he took presents to the children during the Yuletide.

Its (the annual celebration set up by Oathin counted from) the year of his birth, not the day.
He went up to Scandinavia around 43 A.D.
Its the beginning of the Solar New Year, not the birth of the Lord.

So that tradition is in the English culture where they say he is Father Christmas.

Nobody in England calls him Santa Claus, they call him Father Christmas.

There is an old movie about Scrooge that came out in the 30s or 40s. He (Scrooge) goes around the corner and there is this wonderfully handsome giant sitting on a big stack of geese. That is what the English have for their Christmas dinner, geese.
He (Scrooge) goes in there and he talks with Father Christmas, and He is wonderfully handsome, He is about 7 feet tall, and He has got this robe that He wears, and on His head he has a holly wreath. And of course holly means holy.
And children for centuries have had this song,

The holly and the ivy, (When they are both full grown, The holly bears the crown, The holly bears a berry, As red as any blood).

All of the insanity, of the Kybernion (catholic government) corrupting of everything.

Joseph Smith was apparently born right at mid-winter moment in 1805.
In German they have always called it Weihnachten, su weihen, mean to set apart, Weihnachten means the Set-apart Night, which is the longest night of the year.

If someone were to try to find a model for what Christ looks like, would he look more like the Christ in the Temple movie?
The point is, is that He has blond hair and it is curly.
This is a kind of like what they have in the Temple movie.

The issue is, the filthy Catholic Church, they were coerced into showing the Lord looking like an Ashkenazi Tartar, and Eastern European's don't have a drop of the blood of the House of Judah in them. But it is to get people to think that the Lord looked like a Tartar.
That is an interesting thing in the Temple movie, but the point is that the Lord is most handsome.

So, the decedents of the tribes that Christ came from would have been more like the Scandinavians?
They looked just like the Nordics.

All over Northern Europe the people look the same.

The Russians are all ten tribes, but the tribe of Ephraim went to the Scandinavian Peninsula, and from there they became many nations. They became the Germans, the Dutch, the English, the Swedish, Danes, Norwegians, the Icelanders; they became a multitude of nations. And of course they went south throughout Europe as well.
And there were the Jutes that started Spain, the Gothic Spaniards as well.
And so throughout Northern Europe, the people are very handsome looking people.

The Lord went up to Scandinavia and he made the center for the Law religion at Lake Law (Maelare Lake, Sweden).

When the Kybernion (catholic government) gets shot to pieces, then people are going to start being interested again in the real story.
But until that time we have a Kybernion (catholic) corruption of Set-apart Night.

It would be well to actually have that story of how the ancient Law religion operated on their holidays.

One thing that is so interesting, in Finland they don't say January, February, etc. they use the Ancient Germanic names, they still use them in Switzerland as well. December is still called Yule Month in Finland, kuu is moon or month, and Joulukuu is Yule Month.
On Christmas 1957 I was in the old mid-evil capital of Finland called Turku. And on Pikku-Joulu, Little Christmas, all the people in this great big city all walked down to the city square, and the Lord Mayor came out on the balcony of the City Hall, and he proclaimed the Christmas Peace, and that was that everybody promised not to argue during the month of the Yuletide. And that is just an ancient thing from where the Yuletide came from, i.e. reindeer are from Scandinavia.

So if you had the Hansa meeting on Eastertide and All-hallows, then the Christmas period was done more on a local basis.

Basically, if people ask what a county is throughout the English speaking world, from time immemorial 12 men get together at the county court house, every three months. Everything works in quarters here, winter, spring, summer and fall, there is four quarters.

The point is that at Mid-summer Night, it still a big celebration in Scandinavia, and Mid-winter Night is a celebration all over the whole world. A quarter away from Mid-winter Night then you go to April 6, which is Ostertag, Easter-day, and that is the tag (day) that the Reichstag meets on, and each Landtag, and the Bundestag, they meet on that day. And they have a semi-annual meeting in the fall on All-hallows day, All-Saints Day in catholic speaking countries.

This the time of year that people are talking about these things.
And we are the ones with all the records of our race to tell everybody else how to put the story strait.

Knowing many of the truths of our culture, before the invasion of the catholic gross darkness upon our cultural minds, has opened my mind and empowered me to teach those truths to my children.

Yes Virginia there is a Santa Claus.

God Bless,
Darren

[HeirofNumenor]

Fifthly, lives at the North Pole...basically running a frozen hell with elves(same as demons).

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR I take extreme issue with your characterization of Elves (the Elder Children of God, according to Tolkien's stories)

[braingrunt]

In spite of my policy of teaching my children that Santa is not real, I am willing for them to have fun with it if they want to. They are very young right now but so far they think he's kinda freaky.

[RaVaN]

Different fiction! Don't confuse the two =P

[braingrunt]

ps, Heiro, I do believe your new avatar betrays you not being a true tolkien geek; I don't think the books contained any romance involving Aragorn.

[HeirofNumenor]

ps, Heiro, I do believe your new avatar betrays you not being a true tolkien geek; I don't think the books contained any romance involving Aragorn.

Look at the ears.

This is actually Celeborn saying goodbye to his wife Galadriel, when she sailed for Valinor/Tol Eressea at the end of the book - he left much later (only the movie has them leaving together).

And the appendix to Return Of The King describes the romance between Aragorn and Arwen

[Fairminded]

ps, Heiro, I do believe your new avatar betrays you not being a true tolkien geek; I don't think the books contained any romance involving Aragorn.

Aside from him getting married at the end. Certainly not romantic .

As for elves and humans, I always thought humans were sort of portrayed as the red-headed stepchild in Tolkien's books. Sure, they inherit the farm after the elves move back into the castle with the grandparents, but still.

I mean elves are portrayed with almost no faults, and you never see maiar condescending to marry a human. Even an elf marrying a human king is considered a HUGE step down, and she's already a halfbreed.