Good, Three of us!livy111us wrote:There are a few lurkers still hanging aroundbobhenstra wrote: Besides, I think you and I are the only ones reading this thread!
St. Bob
Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
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bobhenstra
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Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
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Mr Lonely
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Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
bobhenstra wrote:Good, Three of us!livy111us wrote:There are a few lurkers still hanging aroundbobhenstra wrote: Besides, I think you and I are the only ones reading this thread!
St. Bob
Maybe four.
Did you know about any of this?
[color=#0040FF]http://www.phoenicia.org ... tm[/color]
or:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Heyerdahl
or maybe: http://www.greatdreams.com/thor.htm?
I was in Bardados in '69 during Ra I. Several days later, we drove past The Carrenage (can't spel vry gud), and Heyerdahl was sitting on the rear deck of a large boat. Tried my best to get the driver to stop, so I could meet him, but he refused. Read his book Aku-Aku, when a small boy, it greatly expanded the world from SouthEast Alabama in the late '50s.
He should be added to the list of people who provide evidence for The Book of Mormon.
Mr Lonely
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bobhenstra
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Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
Mr Lonely wrote:
Maybe four.
Did you know about any of this?
http://www.phoenicia.org.uk/educating-d ... enicia.htm
or:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Heyerdahl
or maybe: http://www.greatdreams.com/thor.htm?
I was in Bardados in '69 during Ra I. Several days later, we drove past The Carrenage (can't spel vry gud), and Heyerdahl was sitting on the rear deck of a large boat. Tried my best to get the driver to stop, so I could meet him, but he refused. Read his book Aku-Aku, when a small boy, it greatly expanded the world from SouthEast Alabama in the late '50s.
He should be added to the list of people who provide evidence for The Book of Mormon.
Mr Lonely
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marc
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bobhenstra
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 7236
- Location: Central Utah
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bobhenstra
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 7236
- Location: Central Utah
Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
Ancient Histories and the Mulekite Landing
October 2, 2013
by Alan C. Miner and Kirk Magleby
(1). Extracts from Step by Step Through the Book of Mormon by Alan C. Miner
Omni 1:16 [The Mulekites] Were Brought . . . across the Great Waters, into the Land Where Mosiah Discovered Them:
Sixteenth Century Historians' records of the Mulekites:
Fernando de Alva Ixtlilxochitl:
Assuming a Mesoamerican setting, we could refer to the writings of a sixteenth century native-born scholar of Mexico named Fernando de Alva Ixtlilxochitl. The writings of Ixtlilxochitl tell of a group of people called Ulmecas and Xicalancas (Mulekites?) who settled among the first settlers (Jaredites?). The new settlers landed on the coast of Veracruz and migrated. The Ulmecas and Xicalancas were put under bondage by the first settlers, who were called giants or Quinametzin. (Fernando de Alva Ixtlilxochitl Obras Historicas)
The Lords of Totonicapan:
According to the history of the Quiche Maya, in a document entitled The Title of the Lords of Totonicapan, these Lords believed that “they came from where the sun rises, descendants of Israel, of the same language and customs. After tarrying for a time on the shores of a lake, they eventually made their way to what appears to be the regions of the Bay of Campeche, Mexico. From there, they went up the Usumacinta and the Grijalva Rivers into what is now Chiapas, Mexico and the Peten area of Guatemala..” (P. Dionisio Jose Chonay, Title of the Lords of Totonicapan)
The Title of the Lords of Totonicapan:
This native Quiche Maya document describes a group of people who were descendants of Abraham and Jacob and who crossed the ocean and settled in the area of the Bay of Campeche. “They were an agriculture-based people who lived in houses made of sticks. They had things in common.” ((P. Dionisio Jose Chonay, Title of the Lords of Totonicapan)
Fray Bernardino de Sahagun:
The sixteenth century Catholic writer, Sahagun, records the following regarding the landing of a particular group of people in Mesoamerica: "Countless years ago these first settlers arrived in these parts of New Spain (Mexico), and they came in ships by sea approaching this northern port; and because they disembarked there it was called Panutla, or Panoayan, 'place where they arrived who came by sea,' now corruptly called Pantlan (Panuco)." (Barnardino de Sahagun, Book Nine)
Panuco is near the present day city of Tampico, Mexico. The settlers traveled along the Gulf Coast of Mexico and eventually settled in the areas of Campeche and Chiapas on the southeast side of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec.
Juan de laTorquemada:
Torquemada also talked about the same people.
(Juan de la Torquamada, Monarchia Indiana. Vol 1)
The Annals of the Cakchiquels:
A native Mesoamerican document similar to the one above describes what was apparently the same group of people and states:
1. they came from the north (Tampico),
2. they arrived at the Gulf of Mexico (Veracruz and Tabasco),
3. they lived many years in the region of the lagoons of Terminos (Campeche). (Recinos and Goetz, The Annals of the Cakchiquels)
(2). Extracts from Book of Mormon Resources by Kirk Magleby
Questions and Answers about the Mulekites:
What was the nature of the Jaredite - Mulekite relationship? Did the Mulekites settle among the Jaredites (Olmec)? Or did the Mulekites establish Zarahemla on the periphery of Jaredite culture?
The Jaredites & Mulekites were contemporaries for about 200 years until the Jaredite collapse. The Mulekites did not migrate very far away from their original homeland in Zarahemla Omni 1:16. When the Mulekites discovered Coriantumr, he was not previously known to them Omni 1:21. Coriantumr lived the last few months of his life among a strange people Omni 1:21, Ether 13:21. No one in the Mulekite community had enough experience with Jaredite culture to translate Coriantumr's stela. It remained a mystery to them until Mosiah I come down to Zarahemla from Nephi with the interpreters which allowed him to read Coriantumr's inscription Omni 1:20. Answer: The Mulekites did not establish Zarahemla among the Jaredites. They lived on the margins of and somewhat isolated from the strong influence of the Jaredite culture core.
Where were the Mulekites most likely to have founded their capital city?
Where do ocean-going migrants typically locate first generation cities? Think Boston on the Charles, New York on the Hudson, Philadelphia on the Delaware and Augusta on the Savannah. Think London on the Thames, Alexandria on the Nile and Shanghai on the Yangtze. Answer: The most likely place for the Mulekites to have founded their city was in a coastal plain, on the navigable portion of a major river, upstream from the seasonal floods in the delta but not beyond the head of navigation at the fall line. Portland on the Columbia, Buenos Aires on the Plata, Seville on the Guadalquivir - the list could go on and on. The best Book of Mormon scholarship has the Mulekites landing first at the mouth of the Papaloapan River in southern Veracruz Alma 22:30, Helaman 6:10, then coasting along the Gulf of Campeche. They must have investigated the mouth of the Coatzacoalcos River and the mouth of the Mezcalapa-Grijalva which at that time ran where the Tonala River flows today. The Mulekites almost certainly did not abandon their ocean-going vessel(s) and portage their goods inland past the fall line on their river of choice. Such behavior is simply atypical of first generation settlers arriving by sea. Movement by water is so much more energy efficient than overland cartage, that historic settlement patterns favor the area downstream from the head of navigation. Upstream areas tend to remain "wilderness" for generations.
Did the Mulekites site Zarahemla in a populated area? Answer: No. The Book of Mormon text specifically says they established their city in a wilderness Mosiah 25:2, Alma 22:31.
What was the nature of the Mulekite - Nephite relationship prior to the mass migration under Mosiah I? The two groups were totally isolated - unaware of the other's existence for hundreds of years Omni 1:14. Their languages evolved to become so dissimilar that at initial contact they could not understand each otherOmni 1:17. Answer: They had no relationship - zero communication for centuries.
What was the nature of the Land of Zarahemla - Land of Nephi relationship during the reigns of Kings Mosiah I, Benjamin, Mosiah II, Zeniff, Noah, Limhi, Lamoni & Lamoni's father? The first group who made the journey enjoyed divine help Omni 1:13. Subsequent travel happened intermittently, but the routes were not yet well-established. Groups got lost as they traveled or attempted to travel between the two lands Mosiah 7:4, Mosiah 8:8, Mosiah 21:25. Tracks became impossible to follow after only a few daysMosiah 22:16. People even got lost trying to find their way back home Mosiah 23:35, 36. People who had been on the trail recently and more or less knew the way still did a lot of wandering around Mosiah 9:4. There was little or no regular communication Omni 1:30, Mosiah 7:14. Former Nephites introduced writing to the Lamanites Mosiah 24:6, which fueled an immediate economic boom Mosiah 24:7. Answer: Travel was very difficult and unpredictable. Many journeys suffered delays or outright failure because the guides became disoriented and could not decide which way to go. Communication was almost non-existent.
NOTE: Both Step by Step Through the Book of Mormon and Book of Mormon Resources are excellent resources for geography, archaeology and anthropology material.
October 2, 2013
by Alan C. Miner and Kirk Magleby
(1). Extracts from Step by Step Through the Book of Mormon by Alan C. Miner
Omni 1:16 [The Mulekites] Were Brought . . . across the Great Waters, into the Land Where Mosiah Discovered Them:
Sixteenth Century Historians' records of the Mulekites:
Fernando de Alva Ixtlilxochitl:
Assuming a Mesoamerican setting, we could refer to the writings of a sixteenth century native-born scholar of Mexico named Fernando de Alva Ixtlilxochitl. The writings of Ixtlilxochitl tell of a group of people called Ulmecas and Xicalancas (Mulekites?) who settled among the first settlers (Jaredites?). The new settlers landed on the coast of Veracruz and migrated. The Ulmecas and Xicalancas were put under bondage by the first settlers, who were called giants or Quinametzin. (Fernando de Alva Ixtlilxochitl Obras Historicas)
The Lords of Totonicapan:
According to the history of the Quiche Maya, in a document entitled The Title of the Lords of Totonicapan, these Lords believed that “they came from where the sun rises, descendants of Israel, of the same language and customs. After tarrying for a time on the shores of a lake, they eventually made their way to what appears to be the regions of the Bay of Campeche, Mexico. From there, they went up the Usumacinta and the Grijalva Rivers into what is now Chiapas, Mexico and the Peten area of Guatemala..” (P. Dionisio Jose Chonay, Title of the Lords of Totonicapan)
The Title of the Lords of Totonicapan:
This native Quiche Maya document describes a group of people who were descendants of Abraham and Jacob and who crossed the ocean and settled in the area of the Bay of Campeche. “They were an agriculture-based people who lived in houses made of sticks. They had things in common.” ((P. Dionisio Jose Chonay, Title of the Lords of Totonicapan)
Fray Bernardino de Sahagun:
The sixteenth century Catholic writer, Sahagun, records the following regarding the landing of a particular group of people in Mesoamerica: "Countless years ago these first settlers arrived in these parts of New Spain (Mexico), and they came in ships by sea approaching this northern port; and because they disembarked there it was called Panutla, or Panoayan, 'place where they arrived who came by sea,' now corruptly called Pantlan (Panuco)." (Barnardino de Sahagun, Book Nine)
Panuco is near the present day city of Tampico, Mexico. The settlers traveled along the Gulf Coast of Mexico and eventually settled in the areas of Campeche and Chiapas on the southeast side of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec.
Juan de laTorquemada:
Torquemada also talked about the same people.
(Juan de la Torquamada, Monarchia Indiana. Vol 1)
The Annals of the Cakchiquels:
A native Mesoamerican document similar to the one above describes what was apparently the same group of people and states:
1. they came from the north (Tampico),
2. they arrived at the Gulf of Mexico (Veracruz and Tabasco),
3. they lived many years in the region of the lagoons of Terminos (Campeche). (Recinos and Goetz, The Annals of the Cakchiquels)
(2). Extracts from Book of Mormon Resources by Kirk Magleby
Questions and Answers about the Mulekites:
What was the nature of the Jaredite - Mulekite relationship? Did the Mulekites settle among the Jaredites (Olmec)? Or did the Mulekites establish Zarahemla on the periphery of Jaredite culture?
The Jaredites & Mulekites were contemporaries for about 200 years until the Jaredite collapse. The Mulekites did not migrate very far away from their original homeland in Zarahemla Omni 1:16. When the Mulekites discovered Coriantumr, he was not previously known to them Omni 1:21. Coriantumr lived the last few months of his life among a strange people Omni 1:21, Ether 13:21. No one in the Mulekite community had enough experience with Jaredite culture to translate Coriantumr's stela. It remained a mystery to them until Mosiah I come down to Zarahemla from Nephi with the interpreters which allowed him to read Coriantumr's inscription Omni 1:20. Answer: The Mulekites did not establish Zarahemla among the Jaredites. They lived on the margins of and somewhat isolated from the strong influence of the Jaredite culture core.
Where were the Mulekites most likely to have founded their capital city?
Where do ocean-going migrants typically locate first generation cities? Think Boston on the Charles, New York on the Hudson, Philadelphia on the Delaware and Augusta on the Savannah. Think London on the Thames, Alexandria on the Nile and Shanghai on the Yangtze. Answer: The most likely place for the Mulekites to have founded their city was in a coastal plain, on the navigable portion of a major river, upstream from the seasonal floods in the delta but not beyond the head of navigation at the fall line. Portland on the Columbia, Buenos Aires on the Plata, Seville on the Guadalquivir - the list could go on and on. The best Book of Mormon scholarship has the Mulekites landing first at the mouth of the Papaloapan River in southern Veracruz Alma 22:30, Helaman 6:10, then coasting along the Gulf of Campeche. They must have investigated the mouth of the Coatzacoalcos River and the mouth of the Mezcalapa-Grijalva which at that time ran where the Tonala River flows today. The Mulekites almost certainly did not abandon their ocean-going vessel(s) and portage their goods inland past the fall line on their river of choice. Such behavior is simply atypical of first generation settlers arriving by sea. Movement by water is so much more energy efficient than overland cartage, that historic settlement patterns favor the area downstream from the head of navigation. Upstream areas tend to remain "wilderness" for generations.
Did the Mulekites site Zarahemla in a populated area? Answer: No. The Book of Mormon text specifically says they established their city in a wilderness Mosiah 25:2, Alma 22:31.
What was the nature of the Mulekite - Nephite relationship prior to the mass migration under Mosiah I? The two groups were totally isolated - unaware of the other's existence for hundreds of years Omni 1:14. Their languages evolved to become so dissimilar that at initial contact they could not understand each otherOmni 1:17. Answer: They had no relationship - zero communication for centuries.
What was the nature of the Land of Zarahemla - Land of Nephi relationship during the reigns of Kings Mosiah I, Benjamin, Mosiah II, Zeniff, Noah, Limhi, Lamoni & Lamoni's father? The first group who made the journey enjoyed divine help Omni 1:13. Subsequent travel happened intermittently, but the routes were not yet well-established. Groups got lost as they traveled or attempted to travel between the two lands Mosiah 7:4, Mosiah 8:8, Mosiah 21:25. Tracks became impossible to follow after only a few daysMosiah 22:16. People even got lost trying to find their way back home Mosiah 23:35, 36. People who had been on the trail recently and more or less knew the way still did a lot of wandering around Mosiah 9:4. There was little or no regular communication Omni 1:30, Mosiah 7:14. Former Nephites introduced writing to the Lamanites Mosiah 24:6, which fueled an immediate economic boom Mosiah 24:7. Answer: Travel was very difficult and unpredictable. Many journeys suffered delays or outright failure because the guides became disoriented and could not decide which way to go. Communication was almost non-existent.
NOTE: Both Step by Step Through the Book of Mormon and Book of Mormon Resources are excellent resources for geography, archaeology and anthropology material.
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bobhenstra
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Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
NOVEMBER 1, 2013
Conference Report: The 11th annual Book of Mormon Lands conference was held in Provo, Utah at the Convention Center. BMAF board members expressed their pleasure at the turnout which approached 200.
All the speakers were most informative and well received. All their presentations will be on BMAF You Tube in the near future. In the meantime, there are over 50 You Tube presentations from past conferences. They are easily accessed at http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... B5KAzehAtg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The for-profit FIRM Foundation continues to extensively promote its agenda and propaganda. BMAF thought the movement would eventually fade out due to its unsupportable claims, but there still seems to be an audience willing to shell out loads of money of Meldrum and May's DVD's, books, tours, and conferences.
Being a not-for-profit organization, BMAF has only you, its members to communicate with. We know you are being challenged in your ward or maybe family with Heartland material, so we want you to be armed with accurate information.
Recently BMAF received a letter from a brother who at one time was very active in the Church. He has become disillusioned and is seriously considering leaving it. We think he knows that the Book of Mormon is the key. After all, the Lord told Joseph Smith that the Church was not to be organized until after the BofM was published and made available for people to read. It is, as Joseph Smith said, the cornerstone of our religion, a shining light to the gentiles and written to the Lamanites. Without it, it would be anybody's guess what would have happened, but it's not hard to imagine.
We wrote to this brother asking for his permission to put his article on this site and he agreed. We also asked him if he would attend the BMAF conference to counteract some of the nonsense he had heard at the FIRM conference. He said he would love to, but he and his son had tickets to an ex-MOS (ex-mormons) conference.
All right I TRIED
All right I TRIED. No, I really, really tried. My goal was to attend every lecture both days of the FIRM Convention. That's the Foundation for Indigenous Research in Mormonism. These are the kinds of people that Robert Kirby would call a mixture of Uber-Conservative Mormons and Nazi Mormons. (Before someone takes offense, I used to be a Nazi Mormon by definition). I even paid for both days with expectations that I would actually learn something that might strengthen my testimony of Mormonism. I really hoped that would be the case.
Let me give you my opinion. I've attended Network Marketing (MLMs) company presentations that were better organized than this. Come to think of it, there were many similarities. They couldn't find the links to some presentations and/or pictures. There was lots of down-time between speakers, and that wasn't all bad because it gave me a chance to read Denver Snuffer's book "Passing the Heavenly Gift".
But the thing that really surprised me was that every talk was really a sales presentation - books, CDs, tours to ancient Nephite burial grounds, paintings of Captain Moroni. I even heard one person tell another that one of the arrowheads on display was made by Nephi himself! I'd pay more for that artifact, wouldn't you? He may have been kidding. I fully expected to see pictures of Joseph Smith using braille over the golden plates.
One speaker, a g-g-grandson of an early Mormon bishop, showed us the sword that the prophet Joseph held up in Nauvoo. He also said, "We also have the sword of God and the sword of Laban." Now that sounded interesting. He really said that. So when he concluded his talk, I went to the back of the room where several others had also gathered to get a glimpse of Laban's and God's swords. I saw however, only the Joseph Smith sword. He had praised that sword like it had magical powers, but it looked rather ordinary - something that some 1840 dragoon or pirate would carry.
The speaker joined us a few minutes later and I asked him if I could see the other two swords. He said, "Ow, I didn't mean that literally." "But you said that you had "all three swords". " I know, but I didn't mean that we literally have all three - just the one." Oh, okay.
Another speaker was a part time tour guide and he told us how he felt the spirit in the middle of some field back east, that the Nephites did this or that there. Still another speaker's premise is that the Jaredites were a race of Black people and he could prove it and that the Olmec civilization became the remnants before they were all killed off. OK, if that's true, that makes a difference in my life how?
Oh yes, there was even one talk entitled "King Arthur and the Book of Mormon." I talked with him privately before he spoke and he told me that his premise was to show the similarities of the BOM and King Arthur's Court. (I'm really not making this stuff up).
The people who attended seem to be honest, God-fearing folks who just want to have more of their questions answered from their church - but the church doesn't answer because they don't know. These people want substantiation of their faith in a day when there is much in their faith to challenge. And so they seek out, in my opinion, snake charmers in white shirts and ties, with smiles on their faces, who will take fragments of evidence and then jump to big and unsubstantiated conclusions.
And of course, because they are LDS and attend church regularly, the leaders must be telling the truth. Sincere, maybe. Scholarly, definitely not in my opinion.
I was disappointed that they didn't really address some of the scientific problems and real issues with Mormonism today ie. DNA, linguistics, architectural and other problems with the Native Americans and the Book of Mormon, the funerary texts that JS claimed were his texts for the Book of Abraham, Polyandry in the early church, etc. Instead, they think to prove the Book of Mormon true by showing that there were some indigenous groups of people who left burial mounds in Ohio and Michigan who "could" have been the early Lehites. In retrospect, I guess I expected too much.
I've finally come to a conclusion. One cannot prove that the Book of Mormon is true through science. If one wants to believe in spite of scientific evidence, then do it. But, dear brothers and sisters, don't go to people who want to take your money in exchange for flimsy artifacts and "knowledge". Isn't that the definition of priest craft?
Sorry this is so long but I felt compelled to give you my opinion of this conference. As I said, I tried to last one full day, but just couldn't make
it through another speaker. I know. I'm weak.
Here are a few comments by BMAF members:
Jody Livingston I too spent the time and money to attend the two day conference at the request of a family member. I was somewhat familiar with their claims but of course was firm in my Mesoamerican theories. I was surprised to hear Wayne May state that his relics were authentic and that the Talmage tests done on the Michigan relics was out dated and insufficient. There also seemed to be so much American exceptionalism that it actually bothered me. The other portion that seemed odd to me was that Meldrum spent so much time trying to disprove Sorenson's reasons it couldn't have happened in N. America that it almost seemed hate filled. I actually decided to even attend an online conference FIRM had and had to laugh that another attendee quoted some of my Hopi evidences as further evidence for a N. American setting. I called him out and advised that the Hopi migrated from Mesoamerica and quoted some of Frank Waters Book of the Hopi and advised hid evidence was actually stronger evidence of a Mesoamerican setting.
Tyler Livingston The deception perpetuated by the Heartlanders is astounding to me. If they had a decent case they would present the evidence and wouldn't have to ignore and distort evidence. I'm glad you had a positive experience with Meldrum, that is rare. I have PAGES of just insults and personal attacks on me because I called into question the accuracy of his evidence. Instead of countering with evidence he would only become angry and call me names. This seems to be the norm if you seriously question his theory.
Greg Smith Short Summary of Problems with Rod Meldrum’s “Heartland” Book of Mormon Geography
Resources: Rodney Meldrum, DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography: New scientific support for the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon; Correlation and Verification through DNA, Prophetic, Scriptural, Historical, Climatological, Archaeological, Social, and Cultural Evidence (Rodney Meldrum, 2007), mail-order DVD. Another version also available in Bruce H. Porter and Rod L. Meldrum, Prophecies and Promises: The Book of Mormon & The United States of America (Salt Lake City, UT: Digital Legend, 2009) and a focus on DNA in Rod Meldrum, Rediscovering the Book of Mormon Remnant through DNA (Honeoye Falls, NY: Digital Legend Press, 2009).
FAIR, BMAF and other researchers have noted, among others, the following problems:
A. Appeals to revelation and attacks on other members
1. Meldrum uses appeals to personal revelation regarding his theory.
2. Meldrum attacks LDS scholars who do not agree with his theory, claims they “disdain and disparage” Joseph Smith, and accuses them of helping anti-Mormons.
3. Meldrum attacks BYU for its science curriculum.
4. Meldrum uses extensive testimonials that demonstrate that many in his audience understand that he is claiming revelation and certainty regarding his model.
5. Meldrum is forbidden to use Church facilities to hold or advertise his events.
6. Meldrum frequently relies on paranoia or conspiracy theories to explain why his model has not been accepted. This includes attacks on BYU, LDS scholars, LDS who offer a different model, the National Science Foundation, the National Association of Science, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, DNA researchers on mutation rates and dating haplotype X2a, Elder James E. Talmage and others who declared the Michigan relics to be forgeries, those who develop computer models, and North American archaeologists who find no evidence of metallurgy north of Mexico (see full text description of “Iron Age America” sold here). Despite making all his income from marketing his theory, Meldrum accuses those who disagree with having financial motives behind their disagreement, without admitting that the same might apply to him.
B. False and incomplete claims about Joseph Smith’s writings and attitude toward a variety of geographies
7. The Heartland Model falsely claims Joseph Smith had a revelation about Book of Mormon geography. Leaders of the Church have repeatedly taught that there is no revealed Book of Mormon geography.
8. The Heartland Model falsely claims that letters written by Joseph Smith in which he expressed interest in a non-North American model were not written by Joseph.
9. The Heartland Model falsely claims that Joseph Smith was in hiding and unable to oversee Church publications when reviews favorable to a non-North American model were published.
10. The Heartland Model claims that Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon was on “this continent,” meaning North America. But, Joseph Smith and others often talked about the whole western hemisphere as a continent.
C. Use of forgeries and misrepresentation
11. The Heartland Model appeals to known forgeries to support his model. The Heartland Model claims that LDS scientists (including James E. Talmage) who identified the forgeries are biased “pseudoscientists.”
12. Meldrum helped produce another DVD about early North American history in which scientists interviewed claimed that their remarks had been edited and taken out of context to make it appear as if they supported claims which they do not.
13. The basic Heartland Model was originally proposed and later rejected by author Ed Goble, whose original work is nether recognized or attributed to by authors May and Meldrum who have claimed the model as their own.
D. DNA errors
The Heartland Model gets virtually everything about DNA wrong. Brigham Young University’s FARMS Review has a detailed discussion here. Some highlights:
14. Believing LDS scholars with expertise in DNA universally reject the Heartland Model.
15. The Heartland Model accuses LDS scholars and BYU professors of betraying members and the gospel because they do not accept his model.
16. LDS geneticists have overwhelmingly concluded that Lehi’s DNA signature is very unlikely to be detected, contrary to what the Heartland Model expects.
17. The Heartland Model ignores that if Lehi has any modern day descendants, then all modern day Amerindians are almost certainly his descendants. We cannot, genetically, confine Lehi’s descendants to a small group—the science just doesn’t work that way.
18. The Heartland Model’s reading of the X2a haplotype is wrong. Furthermore, he ignores that there are no examples of X2a in the Old World.
19. The Heartland Model claims that a desire to keep “evolutionary biology” and “old earth” dating leads scientists or some LDS members to distort the data to produce old date for X2a. He appeals to conspiracy theories to explain why non-LDS and LDS scientists do not accept his model.
20. The Heartland Model (1) misrepresents the papers cited for dating X2a, many of which are also out of date; and (2) ignores that problems with the model can be demonstrated in historical time, using known, modern human populations, with no appeal at all to evolutionary biology. It is true that evolutionary biology does not help the Heartland Model, but the model has failed long before evolution arguments are even raised. If one accepts evolution, then the Heartland Model has even bigger problems. If one does not, the model still fails based on objective, real-world tests in known populations.
E. Geography problems
The Heartland Model’s geography does not match the Book of Mormon text. A few examples are included below, and details on each are available here:
21. Hagoth cannot, as is claimed, navigate from the Great Lakes to the ocean.
22. The Mississippi River flows north to south; the Sidon flows south to north.
23. The Sidon should empty into the “seas,” which are the Great Lakes in the Heartland Model. The Mississippi flows into the Gulf of Mexico, far away from these “seas.”
24. The confluence of the Mississippi and Ohio rivers as the "head" of the river Sidon does not work, because this confluence is not in an area identified by the Book of Mormon as a "narrow strip of wilderness."
25. The Heartland Model uses the Ohio River as the geographic feature separating the land of Nephi from the land of Zarahemla, while the Book of Mormon indicates that the separating feature was a narrow strip of wilderness.
26. The Heartland Model has the land Bountiful southeast of Zarahemla; the Book of Mormon has it northward.
27. The Heartland Model elsewhere claims that Bountiful is directly north of the land of Nephi; in the Book of Mormon, Zarahemla is directly north of the land of Nephi.
28. The Heartland Model’s Land of Nephi does not stretch from east to west sea, as it would need to in order to match the Book of Mormon text.
29. The Book of Mormon has the sea west to the west of the Zarahemla and the land of Bountiful, but the Heartland Model has it east of Zarahemla and north of Bountiful.
30. The land of first inheritance should be on the west sea, west from the land of Nephi. The Heartland Model places it south of the land of Nephi, on the Gulf of Mexico that is not even one of the “seas” in his model.
31. Heartland Model requires Limhi’s rescue party to travel almost 1700 miles in error
32. Heartland Model misrepresents other members’ work, to make his seem more plausible.
33. Heartland Model buffalo evidence gets almost everything wrong.
34. John Sorenson (emeritus professor of anthropology, BYU) offers his own extensive list of cultural and geographical problems that make the model unworkable.
F. The Heartland Model misreads scripture and omits quotes from LDS leaders that disagree with his model.
35. Heartland Model ignores many scriptural uses of the term “land of promise” referring to a broader area than Missouri. At least ten LDS leaders (including Joseph Smith and Brigham Young) applied the term to all of North and South America, not just Missouri.
36. Heartland Model ignores Book of Mormon passages that place elements of the promised land outside the present-day (or Joseph’s day) United States—including the visit of Christopher Columbus, who never entered the modern day United States: his explorations were restricted to the Caribbean and Central America (he never traveled even as far north as Mexico).
37. Heartland Model uses a city founded by Mormons near Nauvoo (named “Zarahemla) to locate the Nephite city of Zarahemla. The model ignores that it was settlers who started calling it Zarahemla first, not scripture or Joseph Smith. The lines about Zarahemla were added later, for historical clarity, by an editor when the revelation was published.
38. Likewise, a city called “Manti” was ascribed to the prophet by later editors, but it was not in the original text.
39. Heartland Model’s confused discussion of “this land” distorts the Book of Mormon text.
G. Cultural problems
The Heartland Model uses a number of “parallels” that either exist in many geographical models, or misunderstands elements in the Book of Mormon text that don’t match his model.
40. Items in many models: armor, weapons, defensive works, cities, presence of dead bodies, bodies of water.
41. Heartland Model does not match the known archaeology of the Hopewell area that he wishes to make into the Nephites.
42. The Heartland Model’s seasonal and climate claims have problems; some Book of Mormon elements (e.g., extreme heat, rather than snow, in and end-of-the year battle) do not match his proposed geography.
43. The Heartland Model also misunderstands the evidence about population sizes and growth.
44. The Heartland Model misrepresents and misunderstands the issue of stone cities versus wood cities, and burning “stone” cities.
45. The Heartland Model’s list of “hits” is, in fact, either misses, or hits that are also hits in other models.
Conference Report: The 11th annual Book of Mormon Lands conference was held in Provo, Utah at the Convention Center. BMAF board members expressed their pleasure at the turnout which approached 200.
All the speakers were most informative and well received. All their presentations will be on BMAF You Tube in the near future. In the meantime, there are over 50 You Tube presentations from past conferences. They are easily accessed at http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... B5KAzehAtg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The for-profit FIRM Foundation continues to extensively promote its agenda and propaganda. BMAF thought the movement would eventually fade out due to its unsupportable claims, but there still seems to be an audience willing to shell out loads of money of Meldrum and May's DVD's, books, tours, and conferences.
Being a not-for-profit organization, BMAF has only you, its members to communicate with. We know you are being challenged in your ward or maybe family with Heartland material, so we want you to be armed with accurate information.
Recently BMAF received a letter from a brother who at one time was very active in the Church. He has become disillusioned and is seriously considering leaving it. We think he knows that the Book of Mormon is the key. After all, the Lord told Joseph Smith that the Church was not to be organized until after the BofM was published and made available for people to read. It is, as Joseph Smith said, the cornerstone of our religion, a shining light to the gentiles and written to the Lamanites. Without it, it would be anybody's guess what would have happened, but it's not hard to imagine.
We wrote to this brother asking for his permission to put his article on this site and he agreed. We also asked him if he would attend the BMAF conference to counteract some of the nonsense he had heard at the FIRM conference. He said he would love to, but he and his son had tickets to an ex-MOS (ex-mormons) conference.
All right I TRIED
All right I TRIED. No, I really, really tried. My goal was to attend every lecture both days of the FIRM Convention. That's the Foundation for Indigenous Research in Mormonism. These are the kinds of people that Robert Kirby would call a mixture of Uber-Conservative Mormons and Nazi Mormons. (Before someone takes offense, I used to be a Nazi Mormon by definition). I even paid for both days with expectations that I would actually learn something that might strengthen my testimony of Mormonism. I really hoped that would be the case.
Let me give you my opinion. I've attended Network Marketing (MLMs) company presentations that were better organized than this. Come to think of it, there were many similarities. They couldn't find the links to some presentations and/or pictures. There was lots of down-time between speakers, and that wasn't all bad because it gave me a chance to read Denver Snuffer's book "Passing the Heavenly Gift".
But the thing that really surprised me was that every talk was really a sales presentation - books, CDs, tours to ancient Nephite burial grounds, paintings of Captain Moroni. I even heard one person tell another that one of the arrowheads on display was made by Nephi himself! I'd pay more for that artifact, wouldn't you? He may have been kidding. I fully expected to see pictures of Joseph Smith using braille over the golden plates.
One speaker, a g-g-grandson of an early Mormon bishop, showed us the sword that the prophet Joseph held up in Nauvoo. He also said, "We also have the sword of God and the sword of Laban." Now that sounded interesting. He really said that. So when he concluded his talk, I went to the back of the room where several others had also gathered to get a glimpse of Laban's and God's swords. I saw however, only the Joseph Smith sword. He had praised that sword like it had magical powers, but it looked rather ordinary - something that some 1840 dragoon or pirate would carry.
The speaker joined us a few minutes later and I asked him if I could see the other two swords. He said, "Ow, I didn't mean that literally." "But you said that you had "all three swords". " I know, but I didn't mean that we literally have all three - just the one." Oh, okay.
Another speaker was a part time tour guide and he told us how he felt the spirit in the middle of some field back east, that the Nephites did this or that there. Still another speaker's premise is that the Jaredites were a race of Black people and he could prove it and that the Olmec civilization became the remnants before they were all killed off. OK, if that's true, that makes a difference in my life how?
Oh yes, there was even one talk entitled "King Arthur and the Book of Mormon." I talked with him privately before he spoke and he told me that his premise was to show the similarities of the BOM and King Arthur's Court. (I'm really not making this stuff up).
The people who attended seem to be honest, God-fearing folks who just want to have more of their questions answered from their church - but the church doesn't answer because they don't know. These people want substantiation of their faith in a day when there is much in their faith to challenge. And so they seek out, in my opinion, snake charmers in white shirts and ties, with smiles on their faces, who will take fragments of evidence and then jump to big and unsubstantiated conclusions.
And of course, because they are LDS and attend church regularly, the leaders must be telling the truth. Sincere, maybe. Scholarly, definitely not in my opinion.
I was disappointed that they didn't really address some of the scientific problems and real issues with Mormonism today ie. DNA, linguistics, architectural and other problems with the Native Americans and the Book of Mormon, the funerary texts that JS claimed were his texts for the Book of Abraham, Polyandry in the early church, etc. Instead, they think to prove the Book of Mormon true by showing that there were some indigenous groups of people who left burial mounds in Ohio and Michigan who "could" have been the early Lehites. In retrospect, I guess I expected too much.
I've finally come to a conclusion. One cannot prove that the Book of Mormon is true through science. If one wants to believe in spite of scientific evidence, then do it. But, dear brothers and sisters, don't go to people who want to take your money in exchange for flimsy artifacts and "knowledge". Isn't that the definition of priest craft?
Sorry this is so long but I felt compelled to give you my opinion of this conference. As I said, I tried to last one full day, but just couldn't make
it through another speaker. I know. I'm weak.
Here are a few comments by BMAF members:
Jody Livingston I too spent the time and money to attend the two day conference at the request of a family member. I was somewhat familiar with their claims but of course was firm in my Mesoamerican theories. I was surprised to hear Wayne May state that his relics were authentic and that the Talmage tests done on the Michigan relics was out dated and insufficient. There also seemed to be so much American exceptionalism that it actually bothered me. The other portion that seemed odd to me was that Meldrum spent so much time trying to disprove Sorenson's reasons it couldn't have happened in N. America that it almost seemed hate filled. I actually decided to even attend an online conference FIRM had and had to laugh that another attendee quoted some of my Hopi evidences as further evidence for a N. American setting. I called him out and advised that the Hopi migrated from Mesoamerica and quoted some of Frank Waters Book of the Hopi and advised hid evidence was actually stronger evidence of a Mesoamerican setting.
Tyler Livingston The deception perpetuated by the Heartlanders is astounding to me. If they had a decent case they would present the evidence and wouldn't have to ignore and distort evidence. I'm glad you had a positive experience with Meldrum, that is rare. I have PAGES of just insults and personal attacks on me because I called into question the accuracy of his evidence. Instead of countering with evidence he would only become angry and call me names. This seems to be the norm if you seriously question his theory.
Greg Smith Short Summary of Problems with Rod Meldrum’s “Heartland” Book of Mormon Geography
Resources: Rodney Meldrum, DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography: New scientific support for the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon; Correlation and Verification through DNA, Prophetic, Scriptural, Historical, Climatological, Archaeological, Social, and Cultural Evidence (Rodney Meldrum, 2007), mail-order DVD. Another version also available in Bruce H. Porter and Rod L. Meldrum, Prophecies and Promises: The Book of Mormon & The United States of America (Salt Lake City, UT: Digital Legend, 2009) and a focus on DNA in Rod Meldrum, Rediscovering the Book of Mormon Remnant through DNA (Honeoye Falls, NY: Digital Legend Press, 2009).
FAIR, BMAF and other researchers have noted, among others, the following problems:
A. Appeals to revelation and attacks on other members
1. Meldrum uses appeals to personal revelation regarding his theory.
2. Meldrum attacks LDS scholars who do not agree with his theory, claims they “disdain and disparage” Joseph Smith, and accuses them of helping anti-Mormons.
3. Meldrum attacks BYU for its science curriculum.
4. Meldrum uses extensive testimonials that demonstrate that many in his audience understand that he is claiming revelation and certainty regarding his model.
5. Meldrum is forbidden to use Church facilities to hold or advertise his events.
6. Meldrum frequently relies on paranoia or conspiracy theories to explain why his model has not been accepted. This includes attacks on BYU, LDS scholars, LDS who offer a different model, the National Science Foundation, the National Association of Science, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, DNA researchers on mutation rates and dating haplotype X2a, Elder James E. Talmage and others who declared the Michigan relics to be forgeries, those who develop computer models, and North American archaeologists who find no evidence of metallurgy north of Mexico (see full text description of “Iron Age America” sold here). Despite making all his income from marketing his theory, Meldrum accuses those who disagree with having financial motives behind their disagreement, without admitting that the same might apply to him.
B. False and incomplete claims about Joseph Smith’s writings and attitude toward a variety of geographies
7. The Heartland Model falsely claims Joseph Smith had a revelation about Book of Mormon geography. Leaders of the Church have repeatedly taught that there is no revealed Book of Mormon geography.
8. The Heartland Model falsely claims that letters written by Joseph Smith in which he expressed interest in a non-North American model were not written by Joseph.
9. The Heartland Model falsely claims that Joseph Smith was in hiding and unable to oversee Church publications when reviews favorable to a non-North American model were published.
10. The Heartland Model claims that Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon was on “this continent,” meaning North America. But, Joseph Smith and others often talked about the whole western hemisphere as a continent.
C. Use of forgeries and misrepresentation
11. The Heartland Model appeals to known forgeries to support his model. The Heartland Model claims that LDS scientists (including James E. Talmage) who identified the forgeries are biased “pseudoscientists.”
12. Meldrum helped produce another DVD about early North American history in which scientists interviewed claimed that their remarks had been edited and taken out of context to make it appear as if they supported claims which they do not.
13. The basic Heartland Model was originally proposed and later rejected by author Ed Goble, whose original work is nether recognized or attributed to by authors May and Meldrum who have claimed the model as their own.
D. DNA errors
The Heartland Model gets virtually everything about DNA wrong. Brigham Young University’s FARMS Review has a detailed discussion here. Some highlights:
14. Believing LDS scholars with expertise in DNA universally reject the Heartland Model.
15. The Heartland Model accuses LDS scholars and BYU professors of betraying members and the gospel because they do not accept his model.
16. LDS geneticists have overwhelmingly concluded that Lehi’s DNA signature is very unlikely to be detected, contrary to what the Heartland Model expects.
17. The Heartland Model ignores that if Lehi has any modern day descendants, then all modern day Amerindians are almost certainly his descendants. We cannot, genetically, confine Lehi’s descendants to a small group—the science just doesn’t work that way.
18. The Heartland Model’s reading of the X2a haplotype is wrong. Furthermore, he ignores that there are no examples of X2a in the Old World.
19. The Heartland Model claims that a desire to keep “evolutionary biology” and “old earth” dating leads scientists or some LDS members to distort the data to produce old date for X2a. He appeals to conspiracy theories to explain why non-LDS and LDS scientists do not accept his model.
20. The Heartland Model (1) misrepresents the papers cited for dating X2a, many of which are also out of date; and (2) ignores that problems with the model can be demonstrated in historical time, using known, modern human populations, with no appeal at all to evolutionary biology. It is true that evolutionary biology does not help the Heartland Model, but the model has failed long before evolution arguments are even raised. If one accepts evolution, then the Heartland Model has even bigger problems. If one does not, the model still fails based on objective, real-world tests in known populations.
E. Geography problems
The Heartland Model’s geography does not match the Book of Mormon text. A few examples are included below, and details on each are available here:
21. Hagoth cannot, as is claimed, navigate from the Great Lakes to the ocean.
22. The Mississippi River flows north to south; the Sidon flows south to north.
23. The Sidon should empty into the “seas,” which are the Great Lakes in the Heartland Model. The Mississippi flows into the Gulf of Mexico, far away from these “seas.”
24. The confluence of the Mississippi and Ohio rivers as the "head" of the river Sidon does not work, because this confluence is not in an area identified by the Book of Mormon as a "narrow strip of wilderness."
25. The Heartland Model uses the Ohio River as the geographic feature separating the land of Nephi from the land of Zarahemla, while the Book of Mormon indicates that the separating feature was a narrow strip of wilderness.
26. The Heartland Model has the land Bountiful southeast of Zarahemla; the Book of Mormon has it northward.
27. The Heartland Model elsewhere claims that Bountiful is directly north of the land of Nephi; in the Book of Mormon, Zarahemla is directly north of the land of Nephi.
28. The Heartland Model’s Land of Nephi does not stretch from east to west sea, as it would need to in order to match the Book of Mormon text.
29. The Book of Mormon has the sea west to the west of the Zarahemla and the land of Bountiful, but the Heartland Model has it east of Zarahemla and north of Bountiful.
30. The land of first inheritance should be on the west sea, west from the land of Nephi. The Heartland Model places it south of the land of Nephi, on the Gulf of Mexico that is not even one of the “seas” in his model.
31. Heartland Model requires Limhi’s rescue party to travel almost 1700 miles in error
32. Heartland Model misrepresents other members’ work, to make his seem more plausible.
33. Heartland Model buffalo evidence gets almost everything wrong.
34. John Sorenson (emeritus professor of anthropology, BYU) offers his own extensive list of cultural and geographical problems that make the model unworkable.
F. The Heartland Model misreads scripture and omits quotes from LDS leaders that disagree with his model.
35. Heartland Model ignores many scriptural uses of the term “land of promise” referring to a broader area than Missouri. At least ten LDS leaders (including Joseph Smith and Brigham Young) applied the term to all of North and South America, not just Missouri.
36. Heartland Model ignores Book of Mormon passages that place elements of the promised land outside the present-day (or Joseph’s day) United States—including the visit of Christopher Columbus, who never entered the modern day United States: his explorations were restricted to the Caribbean and Central America (he never traveled even as far north as Mexico).
37. Heartland Model uses a city founded by Mormons near Nauvoo (named “Zarahemla) to locate the Nephite city of Zarahemla. The model ignores that it was settlers who started calling it Zarahemla first, not scripture or Joseph Smith. The lines about Zarahemla were added later, for historical clarity, by an editor when the revelation was published.
38. Likewise, a city called “Manti” was ascribed to the prophet by later editors, but it was not in the original text.
39. Heartland Model’s confused discussion of “this land” distorts the Book of Mormon text.
G. Cultural problems
The Heartland Model uses a number of “parallels” that either exist in many geographical models, or misunderstands elements in the Book of Mormon text that don’t match his model.
40. Items in many models: armor, weapons, defensive works, cities, presence of dead bodies, bodies of water.
41. Heartland Model does not match the known archaeology of the Hopewell area that he wishes to make into the Nephites.
42. The Heartland Model’s seasonal and climate claims have problems; some Book of Mormon elements (e.g., extreme heat, rather than snow, in and end-of-the year battle) do not match his proposed geography.
43. The Heartland Model also misunderstands the evidence about population sizes and growth.
44. The Heartland Model misrepresents and misunderstands the issue of stone cities versus wood cities, and burning “stone” cities.
45. The Heartland Model’s list of “hits” is, in fact, either misses, or hits that are also hits in other models.
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larsenb
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10895
- Location: Between here and Standing Rock
Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
Excellent post Bob. You beat me to it.bobhenstra wrote:NOVEMBER 1, 2013
Conference Report: The 11th annual Book of Mormon Lands conference was held in Provo, Utah at the Convention Center. BMAF board members expressed their pleasure at the turnout which approached 200.
All the speakers were most informative and well received. All their presentations will be on BMAF You Tube in the near future. In the meantime, there are over 50 You Tube presentations from past conferences. They are easily accessed at http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... B5KAzehAtg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The for-profit FIRM Foundation continues to extensively promote its agenda and propaganda. . . . . . . .
I attended the conference, by the way, and will post what I thought were some of the highlights when I can take the time.
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moonwhim
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4251
Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
"...it shall be a land of liberty unto them..." (2 Nephi 1:7)
Any evidence of this in mesoamerica?
Any evidence of this in mesoamerica?
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larsenb
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10895
- Location: Between here and Standing Rock
Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
Recently, we had some next door neighbors from Mexico. At one point they brought their mother up from Mexico to live with them, which she did for a couple of years.moonwhim wrote:"...it shall be a land of liberty unto them..." (2 Nephi 1:7)
Any evidence of this in mesoamerica?
About that time, I happened to be talking to her and learned she was going back to Mexico, and asked her why. She answered saying: "There's no freedom here. You have to get permission to do almost anything you want to do. Rules and regulations for everything" . I couldn't argue the point.
Point is, freedom and liberty can be defined different ways. And the fact is that most if not all countries in this hemisphere have at least the semblance of representative government. Kings and absolute dictators were kicked out.
There are soooo many quotes from the highest GA's that this hemisphere is the promised land, and specifically that mesoamericans are direct descendents of Lehites and Mulekites, etc. This is evident in their temple dedications in the area, for instance.
As mentioned, I just attended a BMAF conference that dealt with this very issue, which I will get into in a later post.
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log
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2077
- Location: The Fireplace of Affliction
Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
There is additional evidence not only for a mesoamerican model, but also that New Jerusalem may not, in fact, be in Jackson County, MI.
President J Smith arose and said it is impossible to continue the subject that I spoke upon yesterday in Consequence of the weekness of my lungs. Yet I have a proclamation to make to the Elders you know the Lord has led the Church untill the present time I have now a great proclamation for the Elders to teach the Church hereafter which is in relation to Zion, The whole of North and South America is Zion, the mountain of the Lords House is in the Centre of North & South America, when the House is done, Baptism font erectd and finished & the worthy are washed, anointed, endowed & ordained Kings & priests, which must be done in this life, when the place is prepared you must go through all the ordinances of the house of the Lord so that you who have any dead friends must go through all the ordinances for them the same as for yourselves; then the Elders are to go through all America & build up Churches untill all Zion is built up, but not to commence to do this untill the Temple is built up here and the Elders endowed then go forth & accomplish the work & build up stakes in all North and South America, Their will be some place ordained for the redeeming of the dead I think this place will be the one, so their will be gathering fast enough here. President Smith lungs failed him and he appointed Elder G. J. Adams to occupy the time during the foornoon He however remarked that his proclamation just made was the greatest ever made as all could not come here; but it was necessary that enough should come to build up the temple & get an endowment so that the work could spread abroad. (Words of Joseph Smith, p. 364. This took place on April 8, 1844.)
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bobhenstra
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 7236
- Location: Central Utah
Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
Have you spent any time in Mesoamerica?moonwhim wrote:"...it shall be a land of liberty unto them..." (2 Nephi 1:7)
Any evidence of this in mesoamerica?
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moonwhim
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4251
Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
So I guess there is no evidence that the history of mesoamerica is one of a land of liberty?bobhenstra wrote:Have you spent any time in Mesoamerica?moonwhim wrote:"...it shall be a land of liberty unto them..." (2 Nephi 1:7)
Any evidence of this in mesoamerica?
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bobhenstra
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 7236
- Location: Central Utah
Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
All the countries in Mesoamerica are governed by elected presidents, just like the USA!
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log
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2077
- Location: The Fireplace of Affliction
Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
11 And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles.
Depends, I suppose, on what you consider liberty. There hasn't, to my knowledge, been a king raised up on North nor South America. Certainly we are free to serve God, and do good, and speak of our religion.
Depends, I suppose, on what you consider liberty. There hasn't, to my knowledge, been a king raised up on North nor South America. Certainly we are free to serve God, and do good, and speak of our religion.
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andsmith0723
- captain of 50
- Posts: 63
- Location: Houston, Tx.
- Contact:
Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
The Nephites probably did start off in Mesoamerica, but moved their way up north into the United States. There is way too much prophetic evidence from JS himself, the BOM, and really the oral traditions of the Hopewell, Hopi, Cherokee and countless other NA tribes. Not only that, but the reformed egyptian that JS brought to anton is dang near identical to the heavily egyptian influenced mic mac language. The priest that studied the mic mac language and wrote about even called it "reformed egyptian" because of the uncanny resemblance to egyptian. The reality here is that in both the Meso America and Heartland theories there is a lot of truth in them. The Nephites and Lamanites left influence that can be found in both geographical locations. One side is stuck in one pradigm, and the other another paradigm so they see the evidences in different glasses. I personally fall closer to the Heartland model for reasons I mentioned before.
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moonwhim
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4251
Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
Seems to me if mesoamerica was historically a land of liberty then you should be able to prove your point with appropriate sources.bobhenstra wrote:All the countries in Mesoamerica are governed by elected presidents, just like the USA!
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livy111us
- captain of 100
- Posts: 288
Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
There has been no revelation on Book of Mormon geography and the Church maintains this to this day. Whoever is making the claim that there was is absolutely wrong. This is also reinforced by Joseph Smith himself. He taught that The Book of Mormon happened in Mesoamerica numerous times in his life. If there was a revelation that it happened in the bounds of the Heartland theory then Joseph Smith didn't stick to that revelation.andsmith0723 wrote:The Nephites probably did start off in Mesoamerica, but moved their way up north into the United States. There is way too much prophetic evidence from JS himself,
The Mic Mac language isn't an ancient language but a modern one. It was invented by Father Christien Le Clercq, who was a Franciscan missionary to Canada, born in Artois, France about 1630, was sent to Canada about 1655, and died in Lens, France in 1695.andsmith0723 wrote:Not only that, but the reformed egyptian that JS brought to anton is dang near identical to the heavily egyptian influenced mic mac language.
From Bibliography of the Algonquin Languages, by James Constantine Pilling, Washington Government Printing Office, 1891, pp. 305-306, Le Clercq's writing is quoted:
"'The easy method which I found for teaching our Gaspesians
[Micmac] their prayers with certain characters which I have
formed, effectually convinces me that the majority would soon
become instructed... Our Lord inspired me with this method the
second year of my mission, when being greatly embarrassed as to
the mode in which I should teach the Indians to pray, I noticed
some children making marks on birch bark with coal, and they
pointed to them with their finger at every word of the prayer
which they pronounced.
This made me think that, by giving them some form which would
aid their memory by fixed characters, I should advance much more
rapidly than by teaching on the plan of making them repeat over
and over what I said. I was charmed to know that I was not
deceived, and that these characters which I had traced on paper
produced all the effect I desired...'"
I even wrote several non-LDS experts who replied that the characters are of modern origin.
It is also interesting that the characters taken from the gold plates and copied to what we know as the Anthon manuscript, match the characters on a cylinder seal in Mesoamerica (which is an old world technology). There are also several Mayan numerals on the Anthon manuscript.
I am of the belief that the BOM took place in Mesoamerica but the migrations northward, as mentioned in the BOM, landed them what is now USA and assimilated into cultures in that area.andsmith0723 wrote:The reality here is that in both the Meso America and Heartland theories there is a lot of truth in them. The Nephites and Lamanites left influence that can be found in both geographical locations. One side is stuck in one pradigm, and the other another paradigm so they see the evidences in different glasses. I personally fall closer to the Heartland model for reasons I mentioned before.
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livy111us
- captain of 100
- Posts: 288
Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
moonwhim wrote:Seems to me if mesoamerica was historically a land of liberty then you should be able to prove your point with appropriate sources.bobhenstra wrote:All the countries in Mesoamerica are governed by elected presidents, just like the USA!
Here are a few quotes from past Prophets which state that the promises in the BOM of liberty, land of promise, etc... fit all of North and South America.
“Clearly, if the people of this land, this whole land of America, all of it, must serve Jesus Christ, “the God of the land,” or be swept off, and this is the very gist of all and every blessing promised for, and every judgment uttered against this land, then God must so provide that men in all the Americas could serve Him. The era of the Gentiles must be an era of freedom of worship throughout the Hemisphere else Zion could not be established. This was God’s plan and must be brought about… Then in the early decades of the last century, both before and after Joseph’s First Vision, God moved upon the other peoples, one by one, to assert and win their independence, and as fast as they won it, they one by one—I am speaking with historical accuracy—set up their new governmental systems in the framework of our Constitution, sometimes in the first instance, practically copying it word for word. Different juridical traditions have led them to develop their governmental systems along diverging lines from ours, but in great principles their fundamental document is a replica of our God-given instrument. Thus the hemisphere—Zion in its full area—was becoming “a land of liberty.” J. Reuben Clark Jr., “America’s Divine Destiny,” in Messages of the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1975), 6:108-109
“The Lord recognized that truth will only prosper where religious freedom exists. Religious freedom cannot be fully enjoyed without a full measure of political freedom. So before the gospel was restored, wise and inspired men in North, Central, and South America were raised up who proclaimed the sovereign truth that all men—not just the privileged, the rich, or the rulers—but all men have divine rights. Among these rights are life, liberty (which includes our freedom to worship), and right to property. (See D&C 101:79) “Ezra Taft Benson, address given in Puerto Rico, 12–17 December 1980, in Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, 661, emphasis added.
““to the peoples who should inhabit this blessed land of the Americas, the Western Hemisphere, an ancient prophet uttered this significant promise and solemn warning: ‘Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ’ [Ether 2:12].” Ezra Taft Benson, in Conference Report, October 1944, 128, emphasis added.
“this is a choice land—all of America—choice above all others.” Ezra Taft Benson, in Conference Report, October 1962, 15,
“When a Book of Mormon prophet referred to the nations of the world, this hemisphere was designated as ‘good’ (Jacob 5:25–26).” Ezra Taft Benson, Puerto Rico priesthood leadership meeting, 12–17 December 1980, in Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, 123
“I am a firm believer that this country, both North and South America, is the choice land of the world, a land choice above all other lands, according to the words of the prophets in the Book of Mormon. I believe in its final destiny. I believe that there is an over-ruling Providence protecting this country.” Heber J. Grant, in Conference Report, October 1937, 97–98.
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andsmith0723
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Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
Father Christien Le Clercq made his own version of the mic mac language which is used today, however the basis which he created it is from Mic Mac hieroglyphs. These are of undeniable ancient origin. You can read about it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi%27kmaq_ ... ic_writing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;livy111us wrote:There has been no revelation on Book of Mormon geography and the Church maintains this to this day. Whoever is making the claim that there was is absolutely wrong. This is also reinforced by Joseph Smith himself. He taught that The Book of Mormon happened in Mesoamerica numerous times in his life. If there was a revelation that it happened in the bounds of the Heartland theory then Joseph Smith didn't stick to that revelation.andsmith0723 wrote:The Nephites probably did start off in Mesoamerica, but moved their way up north into the United States. There is way too much prophetic evidence from JS himself,
The Mic Mac language isn't an ancient language but a modern one. It was invented by Father Christien Le Clercq, who was a Franciscan missionary to Canada, born in Artois, France about 1630, was sent to Canada about 1655, and died in Lens, France in 1695.andsmith0723 wrote:Not only that, but the reformed egyptian that JS brought to anton is dang near identical to the heavily egyptian influenced mic mac language.
From Bibliography of the Algonquin Languages, by James Constantine Pilling, Washington Government Printing Office, 1891, pp. 305-306, Le Clercq's writing is quoted:
"'The easy method which I found for teaching our Gaspesians
[Micmac] their prayers with certain characters which I have
formed, effectually convinces me that the majority would soon
become instructed... Our Lord inspired me with this method the
second year of my mission, when being greatly embarrassed as to
the mode in which I should teach the Indians to pray, I noticed
some children making marks on birch bark with coal, and they
pointed to them with their finger at every word of the prayer
which they pronounced.
This made me think that, by giving them some form which would
aid their memory by fixed characters, I should advance much more
rapidly than by teaching on the plan of making them repeat over
and over what I said. I was charmed to know that I was not
deceived, and that these characters which I had traced on paper
produced all the effect I desired...'"
I even wrote several non-LDS experts who replied that the characters are of modern origin.
It is also interesting that the characters taken from the gold plates and copied to what we know as the Anthon manuscript, match the characters on a cylinder seal in Mesoamerica (which is an old world technology). There are also several Mayan numerals on the Anthon manuscript.
I am of the belief that the BOM took place in Mesoamerica but the migrations northward, as mentioned in the BOM, landed them what is now USA and assimilated into cultures in that area.andsmith0723 wrote:The reality here is that in both the Meso America and Heartland theories there is a lot of truth in them. The Nephites and Lamanites left influence that can be found in both geographical locations. One side is stuck in one pradigm, and the other another paradigm so they see the evidences in different glasses. I personally fall closer to the Heartland model for reasons I mentioned before.
Here's a neat little video about it from Wayne May, look at the Anton characters in comparison to the Mic Mac heiroglyphs. Uncanny resemblance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTv93trjUV4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'd be interested in seeing this cylinder seal you are talking about. Any links?
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livy111us
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Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
Let me start by saying that I am actually in favor of the Mic Mac being authentic reformed Egyptian. If it were actually an ancient written language it would actually fit my theory very well. But the evidence just does not exist that it is ancient. The evidence states that this is a modern production of characters so I cannot accept it. If they do find some writings that pre-date the missionaries who invented this language, then that would be worth talking about.
I read the Wikipedia link you provided and didn't see where it stated it that it was an ancient written language. What I saw stated just the opposite. Did I miss something? The closest I saw was that Le Clercq saw children writing on birch bark. But this seems to be a common misconception of the actual writings. The children were only drawing "marks" on birch bark, not the later language composed by missionaries. Le Clercq stated that he "formed" the characters and was excited to teach this new written language to others and was confident "that the majority would soon become instructed." The evidence just doesn't support that this written language is older than a few hundred years old.
I am very aware of Wayne May's claims, but as I stated, the evidence doesn't support the ancient nature of the characters.
I wish I had better information than the few links I have, but here is some info on the Tlatilco Seal and a quick comparison between the Anthon Characters.
http://stepbystep.alancminer.com/helper ... 2n_271.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Since the Neal A. Maxwell Institute is upgrading their website, all of the previous links are broken so I'm unable to send you actual articles. But here is the name. "New Light: "Anthon Transcript" Writing Found?," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 8/1 (1999): 68–69.
Here is just a snip from a website on the seal.
In another interesting coincidence two Mesoamerican cylinder seals have been shown to contain characters that are remarkably similar to the characters of the Anthon Transcript.(8) A cylinder seal (sometimes called a "roller stamp") is a ceramic cylinder usually embossed with some form of characters or official symbols. Such cylinders were used anciently to record, usually in wax, an official seal. By rolling the cylinder over the wax the words and symbols embossed on the cylinder were imprinted in the soft wax.
cylinder seal Shown here is one of these cylinder seals together with its rolled image. This cylinder was found at Tlatilco in the Valley of Mexico. Of the 28 characters identifiable on this cylinder, 26 have been show to have a close relationship to Anthon characters. The second cylinder, found in La Venta, Tabasco, is but a small fragment with a mere ten characters preserved. However, for all ten characters, Anthon Transcript equivalents have been identified. http://www.cometozarahemla.org/graphics ... erseal.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I read the Wikipedia link you provided and didn't see where it stated it that it was an ancient written language. What I saw stated just the opposite. Did I miss something? The closest I saw was that Le Clercq saw children writing on birch bark. But this seems to be a common misconception of the actual writings. The children were only drawing "marks" on birch bark, not the later language composed by missionaries. Le Clercq stated that he "formed" the characters and was excited to teach this new written language to others and was confident "that the majority would soon become instructed." The evidence just doesn't support that this written language is older than a few hundred years old.
I am very aware of Wayne May's claims, but as I stated, the evidence doesn't support the ancient nature of the characters.
I wish I had better information than the few links I have, but here is some info on the Tlatilco Seal and a quick comparison between the Anthon Characters.
http://stepbystep.alancminer.com/helper ... 2n_271.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Since the Neal A. Maxwell Institute is upgrading their website, all of the previous links are broken so I'm unable to send you actual articles. But here is the name. "New Light: "Anthon Transcript" Writing Found?," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 8/1 (1999): 68–69.
Here is just a snip from a website on the seal.
In another interesting coincidence two Mesoamerican cylinder seals have been shown to contain characters that are remarkably similar to the characters of the Anthon Transcript.(8) A cylinder seal (sometimes called a "roller stamp") is a ceramic cylinder usually embossed with some form of characters or official symbols. Such cylinders were used anciently to record, usually in wax, an official seal. By rolling the cylinder over the wax the words and symbols embossed on the cylinder were imprinted in the soft wax.
cylinder seal Shown here is one of these cylinder seals together with its rolled image. This cylinder was found at Tlatilco in the Valley of Mexico. Of the 28 characters identifiable on this cylinder, 26 have been show to have a close relationship to Anthon characters. The second cylinder, found in La Venta, Tabasco, is but a small fragment with a mere ten characters preserved. However, for all ten characters, Anthon Transcript equivalents have been identified. http://www.cometozarahemla.org/graphics ... erseal.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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andsmith0723
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Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
How does evidence not exist? The heiroglyphs did not come out of nothing. The language they have today came from their pictographs. It cannot be proved for sure that it predates european contact but most researchers agree that it probably did. Early on their was debate about whether or not it qualified as a language but most today also agree that the pictographs were a crude primitive language but could be used for compositions. If I recall correctly moroni actually talks about the fact that they (the nephites) were not strong in writing like the jaredites were. This implies that the reformed egyptian they used was pictograph in nature. That is the way I view it.
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livy111us
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Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my last post. The evidence does not exist that the Mic Mak written language that is being discussed by Wayne May and others, pre-dates the missionaries who invented that language. The oral language existed, but just not the characters. This is what I was speaking about when I said the evidence does not exist. The evidence supports that the written language was invented by missionaries a few centuries ago.andsmith0723 wrote:How does evidence not exist? The heiroglyphs did not come out of nothing. The language they have today came from their pictographs. It cannot be proved for sure that it predates european contact but most researchers agree that it probably did. Early on their was debate about whether or not it qualified as a language but most today also agree that the pictographs were a crude primitive language but could be used for compositions. If I recall correctly moroni actually talks about the fact that they (the nephites) were not strong in writing like the jaredites were. This implies that the reformed egyptian they used was pictograph in nature. That is the way I view it.
Also, having looked into this and discussing it with several experts in the field, the consensus among the scholars is that the characters are a recent production. May would like to suggest otherwise but it is just not true.
Moroni does say "Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in bwriting like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he cwrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them." I also believe that Reformed Egyptian was pictograph in nature and believe the Anthon manuscript strongly supports that theory.
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andsmith0723
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Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
I don't think you understand what I am saying. The language the missionaries made came from the already existing pictographs of the mic mac indians, which pre-dated the missionaries. This means that the characters that the missionaries used, were already being used before they got there. The problem is that not much is known about them or where the pictographs came from, so no one can say with complete certainty that they are ancient. It is no coincidence that the anthon manuscript so strongly resembles the pictographs. It says either 1) The manuscript is exactly what Joseph claimed them to be, ancient reformed egyptian. OR 2) Joseph Smith learned of the Mic Mac language and copied the characters to pass off as his own.
I'm inclined to believe the 1st
I'm inclined to believe the 1st
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livy111us
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Re: Meso American Model By Richard Hauck Ph.D
That is the evidence that is lacking. There are no writings that pre-date the missionaries who invented the characters. Please provide examples of this written language prior to missionary contact.
There is a third option which is the one that I am in favor of, or at least, I would be if these characters were ancient, and that is that the BOM took place in Mesoamerica and as the large migrations of people that numbered in the tens of thousands went north (as mentioned in The Book of Mormon) they took reformed Egyptian with them. This would make sense because characters written on a cylinder seal, which is an Old World technology, found in Mexico, match quite nicely to the Anthon manuscript. There is quite a bit of evidence that Mesoamericans migrating north just as the BOM peoples did. http://www.bmaf.org/node/458" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is a third option which is the one that I am in favor of, or at least, I would be if these characters were ancient, and that is that the BOM took place in Mesoamerica and as the large migrations of people that numbered in the tens of thousands went north (as mentioned in The Book of Mormon) they took reformed Egyptian with them. This would make sense because characters written on a cylinder seal, which is an Old World technology, found in Mexico, match quite nicely to the Anthon manuscript. There is quite a bit of evidence that Mesoamericans migrating north just as the BOM peoples did. http://www.bmaf.org/node/458" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
