LDS Freedom Forum

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:ymsigh:

Im not sure if there was a thread on FAIR's thread to Brian but here is one thread on the topic http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=22188" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

#:-s

They were upset with Brian for something? I read that other thread and while I do agree with the sentiments that they should be more declarative of the truth I actually didn't find anything troublesome about what they said. I have been on the FAIR website before and I have seen answers to things that I felt were candy coated or perhaps misleading in a way. That ww chick seemed to be pretty reasonable though from what I read and polite. I'm not saying Mahonri is wrong or anyone else is wrong though because I don't know why they came to those conclusions and I don't have the full picture but based on the thread you provided I atleast didn't see any bullying or anything in that one.

I did read the article about that blogger and I do find that disheartening indeed. Though I don't have the full picture there either. But just the idea of any member "telling on" another member because they don't like thier views or thier blog is bothersome to me. That is not the kind of church Joseph Smith established and I think he would be appalled at the idea of calling each other up to accuse one another for having different views. We are not supposed to have a set of creeds we must beleive or be asked out of the church. We are not supposed to be expected to all beleive the same and think the same. The only time a person should be excommunicated is for grevious sins and only done so under the direction of the spirit. If he is being disciplined for some sins we are not aware of then so be it but if its just for having his blog then its wrong imo. And who ever told on him for it, well, imo that is the opposite of the Christ-like thing to do.

What ever happened to trying to help others through persuasion, gentleness, meekness, long suffering and love unfeigned? Going and tattle tailing on someone is just another way to try and force people to do beleive things the way they do. Control and Force are not the ways that Christ operates and neither should we. We should be patient with each other. I thought we were supposed to beleive in allowing all men the privilege of worshiping how they may.

i agree

having said that, maybe the guy is just bad news?

Ben McClintock wrote: It seems it is when FAIR feels personally threatened is when they try and "defend the faith" through bullying instead of facts.
Truly sad

As they say, FAIR is an organization, not a person... I figured he would have talked to the guy's bishop.

I don't know, looking at the guys site it seems like there is a lot of anti-mormon stuff on there. I skimmed over his explanation of the Book of Mormon, I think that would be far more evidence of his apostasy than not liking Mitt Romney.

What was his avatar?

triple777 wrote:What was his avatar?

It was a picture comparing them to Lighthouse ministries.

What ever happened to Mahonri anyway? Haven't seen him around here for awhile and I miss his input.

Sadly, we'll see more and more of this kind of thing in the Church as time progresses. I'm convinced the great and spacious building is/will be filled with LDS people more than any other group. Maybe "FAIR" should merge with the "Strengthening the Members" committee - seems they have the same goals in mind...

I would like to say that if there is a "member" of the church who's goal is really working for the adversary and they are purposefully doing this and trying to cause problems and get a following and cause people to turn away from the faith then I do beleive it would be ok to ex them. However, I do think many geniune good people get labled as wolves in sheep clothing who are far from that and they are labled that just because they don't think everything in the church is perfect and have a different outlook on things. But a lot of these people are genuinely good people and on the Lords side and not interested in gaining a following or leading people atsray. Their goals are to help point people to Christ.

I just think we have to be very careful who we judge to be a wolf. Im not saying this guys not. From some of the things Iv'e hear people say he may be. But in general the practice of tattle tailing and bringing people before diciplinary councils for having different views who are not doing anything wrong is way messed up.

When I first saw this thread, my initial reaction was 'uh-oh, did Snuffer finally go too far'? )

FAIR tries to change scripture
http://www.mormonchronicle.com/fairatte ... ofthelord/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ben McClintock wrote:FAIR tries to change scripture
http://www.mormonchronicle.com/fairatte ... ofthelord/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The church has done the same thing, MANY times:

-- removal of canonized LOF in 1921 by a committee,
-- removal of many sections of the D&C,
-- changes made to the 1981 edition of the BOM including caving to the anti-racist movement and making the change "white and delightsome" to "fair and delightsome",
-- the recent changes to the standard works (minus the Bible) deleting important portions,
-- etc, etc, etc...

Even "The Words of Joseph Smith" was butchered, "edited", cut down, and re-interpreted - giving us "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith". Then there is the correlation committee which continues to "soften" and delete history, water-down and remove doctrine, change meanings, restrict studies and teachings, and offer a patented understanding of everything we can read online - so we don't have to worry about getting our own revelation! :ymparty:

It seems to me that the church and the apologetics might just be on the same team ;) .

Jules wrote: The church has done the same thing, MANY times:

-- removal of canonized LOF in 1921 by a committee,
-- removal of many sections of the D&C,

They also added many sections to the D&C, that aren't particularly popular among these parts.

-- changes made to the 1981 edition of the BOM including caving to the anti-racist movement and making the change "white and delightsome" to "fair and delightsome",
-- the recent changes to the standard works (minus the Bible) deleting important portions,
-- etc, etc, etc...

Sounds like they don't hold a candle to Joseph Smith, who changed the BOM and D&C and Bible and endowment more than everyone else combined.

I think Aussio is the resident expert, I think he has overwhelming resources on the JS changes.

Even "The Words of Joseph Smith" was butchered, "edited", cut down, and re-interpreted - giving us "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith".

Seeing how nobody reads it, including an alarming number of people on this forum, I'm not sure exactly what the problem is, but to the point editing has been a standard practice in literature long before anyone heard of the LDS Church, and of course the Church has always published History of the Church in an overwhelming number of volumes from which TPJS was compiled and of course nobody read that either (including a lot of people on this forum).

Then there is the correlation committee which continues to "soften" and delete history, water-down and remove doctrine, change meanings, restrict studies and teachings, and offer a patented understanding of everything we can read online

You know I've always loved our manuals, they've introduced me to so much source material, they didn't even have to do that. Whoever does the manuals deserves a lot of our thanks.

- so we don't have to worry about getting our own revelation! :ymparty:

When has the Church taught not to get your own revelation.

It seems to me that the church and the apologetics might just be on the same team ;) .

Why wouldn't they be.

On so many different threads there is constant complaining about the Church and the Brethren. For me, it boils down to this, either the Church is true or it isn't. Too many are worshipping at the feet of Joseph Smith and forgetting that this is the Church Joseph Smith organized under the Lord's direction; and it continues under the Lord's direction this day. Joseph was the first to acknowledge his weaknesses, but he was a magnificent tool in the Lord's hand. The same is true today; with all their human weaknesses, the Prophets and the Brethren accomplish the Lord's work here on the earth. It's time to quit judging them and working on our own weaknesses. Those who think they are more righteous than the Brethren have let pride in their own spirituality cloud their judgment of the Church and its leaders.

kathyn wrote:On so many different threads there is constant complaining about the Church and the Brethren. For me, it boils down to this, either the Church is true or it isn't. Too many are worshipping at the feet of Joseph Smith and forgetting that this is the Church Joseph Smith organized under the Lord's direction; and it continues under the Lord's direction this day. Joseph was the first to acknowledge his weaknesses, but he was a magnificent tool in the Lord's hand. The same is true today; with all their human weaknesses, the Prophets and the Brethren accomplish the Lord's work here on the earth. It's time to quit judging them and working on our own weaknesses. Those who think they are more righteous than the Brethren have let pride in their own spirituality cloud their judgment of the Church and its leaders.

Absolutely, Kathyn.

Seek the Truth wrote:

Jules wrote: The church has done the same thing, MANY times:

-- removal of canonized LOF in 1921 by a committee,
-- removal of many sections of the D&C,

They also added many sections to the D&C, that aren't particularly popular among these parts.

-- changes made to the 1981 edition of the BOM including caving to the anti-racist movement and making the change "white and delightsome" to "fair and delightsome",
-- the recent changes to the standard works (minus the Bible) deleting important portions,
-- etc, etc, etc...

Sounds like they don't hold a candle to Joseph Smith, who changed the BOM and D&C and Bible and endowment more than everyone else combined.

I think Aussio is the resident expert, I think he has overwhelming resources on the JS changes.

Even "The Words of Joseph Smith" was butchered, "edited", cut down, and re-interpreted - giving us "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith".

Seeing how nobody reads it, including an alarming number of people on this forum, I'm not sure exactly what the problem is, but to the point editing has been a standard practice in literature long before anyone heard of the LDS Church, and of course the Church has always published History of the Church in an overwhelming number of volumes from which TPJS was compiled and of course nobody read that either (including a lot of people on this forum).

Then there is the correlation committee which continues to "soften" and delete history, water-down and remove doctrine, change meanings, restrict studies and teachings, and offer a patented understanding of everything we can read online

You know I've always loved our manuals, they've introduced me to so much source material, they didn't even have to do that. Whoever does the manuals deserves a lot of our thanks.

- so we don't have to worry about getting our own revelation! :ymparty:

When has the Church taught not to get your own revelation.

It seems to me that the church and the apologetics might just be on the same team ;) .

Why wouldn't they be.

Joseph Smith was commissioned by God the Father and Jesus Christ to translate and edit the BOM. NOBODY else has been given that commission. If they have, I'd like to see the "revelation", and I'd like to see the common consent of the church that voted those changes that were made after this supposed revelation was received. As you can see for yourself - if you do the research, it was done improperly by committees and by those without authority to make such changes. Don't guess, do the research. It's all there - and there is no revelation to "edit" or "remove" scripture after the commission given to JS. Period.

Apologists - trying to soften truth for us... wow. I guess if that's what you want... ask for a king, you get a king. I prefer the truth - as it is. I have asked for it, and that's what I am given - though it takes a lot more work and studying and research than reading manuals put together by a correlation department.

Jules wrote: Joseph Smith was commissioned by God the Father and Jesus Christ to translate and edit the BOM.

Good one. Why would a perfect translation need further editing. Reading D&C 107 and many other places I see no limitation placed on any PSRs serving in the Church.

NOBODY else has been given that commission.

D&C 107 says that God bestows all the gifts on the President of the Church. I don't find any limits placed by God on current Church leadership.

If they have, I'd like to see the "revelation", and I'd like to see the common consent of the church that voted those changes that were made after this supposed revelation was received.

Why not ask the same for the changes JS made. Aussio I believe has all the supporting material if needed.

As you can see for yourself - if you do the research, it was done improperly by committees and by those without authority to make such changes. Don't guess,

I haven't.

do the research.

I did.

It's all there - and there is no revelation to "edit" or "remove" scripture after the commission given to JS. Period.

Maybe you would like to post this commission given to JS so we can see what it actually says.

Apologists - trying to soften truth for us... wow. I guess if that's what you want... ask for a king, you get a king. I prefer the truth - as it is. I have asked for it, and that's what I am given - though it takes a lot more work and studying and research than reading manuals put together by a correlation department.

No kidding. I was doing it way before the internet when the manuals were the only way most people could reasonably get material from these outside sources. I developed a great gratitude for the manuals and they blessed my life and lives of others.

I'm not sure where you get apologist= softening truth, most everyone here is an apologist for for something. As an apologist I consider myself a defender of truth.

Seek the Truth wrote: D&C 107 says that God bestows all the gifts on the President of the Church. I don't find any limits placed by God on current Church leadership.

D&C 88:3 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

What makes you think that applies to any Presidents of the Church.

What makes you think it doesn't apply to all humans?

I asked you first.