What Scenerio Will Play Out?

[Jnewby]

Maybe I think to much about these types of things, however, I'm always trying to reconcile how future events will unfold. We're told we have inflation that will drive us to our kness, we have deflation driving us to our knees, we have a new war in Iran that will prove to be the end, we have the forces of the NWO breathing down our throats and the list is nearly endless. We read online forums such as this and most feel the economic end is upon us and everything we know will come crashing down any day now. No matter that this has been the story for 10-15 years or even decades, none-the-less, now is the time.

Don't get me wrong, I am fully in agreement with all of the above excepting one thing, I believe we often forget the hand of Lord in how all this will play out. There is much left that the Lord and his church has yet to accomplish. Much of what has yet to be done would be severely impacted if what I feel can happen, happens right now. On the other hand, oftentimes the work of the Lord actually speeds up when people have been humbled and brought to their economic knees, the scriptures bear that out.

So where does that leave us today? Reading this forum, the end is here, but I'm not so sure that is the case. If it was economic conditions that determine when things come to a head, it is my feeling we would have been there long ago. Maybe the one thing keeping us afloat so to speak is that the Lord has yet to finish his work and is thus staying his hand. Once the work is complete, the hand will be lifted and what should have happened years ago will unfold.

On the other hand, as I mentioned in the previous paragraph, bringing people to their economic knees may be a humbling experience that actually helps the gospel go forward in areas or countries where it may have stagnated or stalled.

I'd be interested in everyone's take on this subject.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

My opinions are not by any stretch loosely based. I do believe that this is the "end" economically for the U.S.. It is a certainty. The Lord has stayed His hand (read the parable of the vineyard in which the Master keeps wanting to burn it, but the Lord stays His hand repeatedly). He has done so while the majority were basically righteous and He could stay His hand. But the Lord is bound when we do what He says, and likewise when we do not. This time is different. Things have never been this bad. These conditions have never existed before. A Prophet of God prophesied of this period, likening it to the period of famine in Egypt.

There are always those that weary of the watch. Many followers gave up the watch the last time the Savior came. It will still be a good while yet before He comes in the clouds, but the start we know is here. We know that Israel has gathered to Jerusalem by which we may know that the times of the gentiles will soon come to a close. That was in 1948 and the prophets remarked that it was a sign that the times of the gentiles were nearing their close. Many of the brethren thought or felt to make predictions as to "how soon the end?" Many have come and gone (Lorenzo Snow in conference apr 1898 said "there are many-hundreds and hundreds within the sound of my voice that will live to go back to Jackson County and build a holy temple to the Lord our God..." now that may have application in that we now hear his words, and I do not mean to discount that, rather to point out the feeling that many decree to exclaim at how near the day truly is).

From my studies I see all of the required pieces in place. Understanding the first last, last first, we know that when the missionaries are called home from the gentiles, that will not preclude them from going forth to scattered Israel and in fact they will. In that way the gospel does not have to have gone on to all the world as yet. What is coming takes many years to play out, and it has already started. It already is the time of the end and the prophets have said as much.

I believe in a timeline of sorts though I admit that mine is likely flawed. That is that not everything is going to happen in one big cataclysmic bang in which total anarchy and total oppression both simultaneously occur and anti christs spring up and lo here lo there for a year or two and then bang pow clouds in heaven rapture and the millenniums on. It is going to take some time.

But...U.S. sovereignty is done. The debt based U.S. economy is toast, the rule of law in America is over and done with, etc... We are on an exponential curve likenable to the frog with the heat ever ramping up. It is an irreversible trend as far as the Babylonian world is concerned.

And that leaves Zion. To be built up stone by stone. It all starts now, it all started yesterday, the stone rolls onward despite the weaker rabble in her way.

Watch and wait for ye know not...

[Jnewby]

Not that I disagree, because actually I agree with most of what you said; however speaking in economic terms, weren't we basically bankrupt as a country nearly 20 years ago. Taxes have gone to cover only our debt service for 15 years. My point being, we can and have been economically dead for all intents and purposes, for quite sometime. It seems like we are on economic life-support and have been for quite sometime, so is it possible that we remain onlife-support for 1, 3, 5, 10 years?

I'm with you, it seems as if nothing can get worse or things have never been more ripe for destruction; then a new year rolls around and we're still here, another new year rolls around and we're still here. I guess what I am saying or asking, do we tend to always presume the worst and forget that the Lord has a time table as well?

Like I said, I agree with your thoughts, but I have heard those thoughts for a decade which isn't bad as it has helped me to better prepare myself and family. On the other hand, oftentimes I hope we are right and things to get going as I believe that will further the gospel even further as you eluded to with the missionaries coming home and then going out again.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

True, we have seen a weakening dollar for some time and run up deficits. The difference is that now we have truly borrowed too much from the future. At the very root of this economic problem is that fact.

We borrowed more from tomorrow than we can pay back. That wasn't the case before. There was an incentive for the world to use the US dollar as a reserve currency and allow the imf etc... to cheat the rest of the world out of their resources. But that con only works once. There is no longer any incentive for anyone to buy our debts. That is only now being reflected in the bond markets, sovereign wealth funds, lending rates for interbank loans, mortgages, credit cards etc... as very high interest rates. How do you pay off the hundreds of thousands of dollars debt per person when new debt costs 20% or more? That positively ends inflation once and for all!

Few argue as to whether we could weather another Great Depression. It is obvious that we couldn't. Our debts are much larger. Our productive value much less. We can't just tighten our belts. Do you know of anyone that can pay off their share of the national, state, municipal, and personal debts (hundreds of thousands per person)? A great many have fallen behind on making their minimum payments!!!

So what great change allows them to regain ground? More job growth? Not likely. Increased productivity? Not possible. Innovation? I'd like to hear about it! Personal responsibility and self sufficiency? In my dreams.

It is truly difficult to get our heads around the whole of it, but from what I can see, it's over this time. The only question is fast or slow? I'll be glad if we do not see a minor crash by spring.

[ChelC]

Drat! Just lost my response.

I liked the advice I read some time ago from one of the early church leaders: Live and prepare like it's tomorrow, but plant your cherry trees.

It's sometimes interesting to speculate about when it will happen, but how tiresome that can get. There was a church we frequently drove past in Hawaii that had a great big sign. It said something like Jesus Coming 12-26-89. Periodically the date would change. It's a little silly to think we can precisely pinpoint the end when we're dealing with imperfect human records over thousands of years, not to mention the fact that we've been told we can't! It's still tempting to try, and we do know what signs to look for. Make a checklist and try to guess. That's about as good as it gets.

We know there is a hole in the balloon and it's shrinking, but we don't know who has their finger over the hole, when they might let go and whether it will leak slowly or all out once with a loud flarp.

[Jnewby]

Very interesting take on the how things may unfold or not unfold for awhile yet. In a nutshell, if it gets to bad, the powers that be risk losing control of the situation. Why go to far when you basically have the people in bondage now and they are to dumb to know it.



World Affairs Brief, February 15, 2008. Commentary and Insights on a Troubled World.

Copyright Joel Skousen. Partial quotations with attribution permitted. Cite source as Joel Skousen’s World Affairs Brief

AN INDEPENDENT CHALLENGE WITHOUT RON PAUL?

One thing we have learned from the current primary campaign is just how manipulable the American voter is by a media onslaught for or against various candidates. The slick campaign to eliminate Romney from the campaign, using Huckabee as the spoiler, was very revealing. So was the extreme media bias against Ron Paul. There just aren’t enough thinking people among voters to amass any more support for a principled, Constitution-based platform than 5-10%. That doesn’t bode well for a third party or independent run. The mainstream media will deny any meaningful news coverage to third parties–unless it’s one of “their” third party spoilers like Ross Perot, who collaborated with the PTB in order to get the Clintons installed in the White House. Only in those cases do they get lots of coverage and are allowed into the debates.

Without substantive media attention, within our “winner-take-all” system, a third party/independent run for the presidency is not capable of winning the election outright–though it can act as a spoiler for one party or the other. However, as I just pointed out, the PTB get their way with either the Democrat or Republican–they just get it done in a different order and slightly different time frame.

In any case, no third party or independent candidacy is going anywhere unless all the disparate parties and forces agree on supporting a single candidate–and that person is Ron Paul. He is the only candidate capable of attracting partisans across the principled political spectrum of constitutional conservatives, independents and many anti-war Democrats as well. Almost all of the small third parties would be willing to join forces if Ron Paul were the standard bearer. Such a unified coalition has not been possible in the past hundred years. Only Ron Paul is capable of engendering the necessary trust to put together this large a coalition. He says this movement is not about him, but it is, in one significant way: A proper ideology is absolutely essential, but it has to have a human being to be its champion and get elected to office. Ideas don’t get elected on their own without a person the people can rally around. No one else has the elected track record of Ron Paul. No one else has his absolute reputation for trust.

The only problem is that Paul has announced that he will not run as a third party or independent candidate–that he is staying loyal to the Republican party. He has done this not because he really thinks highly of the Republican party (that has betrayed him constantly), but simply because running as a Republican has been the only way in which he has ever won anything. He would never have won his seat in Congress as a libertarian. Only by running as a mainstream candidate do you accrue the number of unthinking voters that is necessary to win. Not only is Ron running for President but he is running concurrently for his seat in Congress as a Republican. So he is not free to switch parties without ceding the Congressional race to the other liberal Republicans who are challenging Paul in the Republican primary in his Texas district.

The ultimate question for Ron Paul is this: Is staying within the Republican’s going to continue to yield any significant benefits in terms of building the movement? It’s a tough question. He believes it will. Most of Paul’s supporters couldn’t care less about Paul staying in the Republican party–which they correctly view as part of the problem. However Ron sincerely believes he can continue to grow the movement staying in the GOP and by retaining his seat in Congress.

Certainly this year’s record run for the Presidency bears that out. Paul never would have got even a fraction of the media and debate time had he not run in the Republican primary. Even though the media purposely denied him equal coverage and equal time in the debates, still his message did get out there–with a lot of help from his supporters. Ron’s message failed to catch on in large numbers because too many voters are unthinking, taking their cues from talking heads who dismiss Paul as irrelevant, and too complacent with the status quo to feel the severity of the crisis we face. The PTB are intent on keeping people complacent, and marginalizing those that aren’t.

Has Ron’s advantage running with the Republican’s run its course? Yes and no. I don’t think he will have any more effect back in Congress than before–which was minimal. Admittedly, it has been great to have him there. He has been our watchdog on everything the Congress did wrong. He has been the conscience of the Congress for decades but, like Jiminy Cricket of Pinnochio fame, Congress isn’t listening. Ron isn’t getting any younger either but he is in good health and could still fight on for many years–at least in Congress–but probably not as president where he is quickly reaching that age limit where few would consider him a viable candidate because of age. That is why many of us felt this election was our last and best chance.

There is still, however, the possibility that some crisis may get out of hand and the PTB could come out looking very bad. From his position as a Republican member of Congress and a former Presidential candidate, his voice would have the best chance of being heard. Future crises that surely must come are what Ron Paul is hoping will give him yet another chance either before the convention, or in the next four years.

The PTB are experts at making sure dissidents don’t get the chance to build on some crisis. That is why defacto control of the media is so important. Some have hypothesized that the current economic crisis could bring this nation to its knees and finally cause people to wake up, and reject establishment fiat money policies. It could, but even then history gives us little hope that people can resist the false saviors that present themselves in a crisis to divert us from a proper solution.

For example, in 1992 the entire Italian establishment political structure was voted out of office in the famous scandal over bribery and corruption. It was discovered that all political parties were engaged in systematic kickbacks on government contracts from big corporations and the Mafia. All of those political parties reformed within six months and were back in business with new names and new faces–and the very same powerful forces were still controlling Italian politics. A similar charade deceived the whole world with the deceptive “fall of the Soviet Union.” The Communists simply went underground and created their own “reformed” communist parties with false anti-communist leaders both in Russia and in former satellite countries. Even Lech Walesa’s Solidarity Movement in Poland was a front controlled by the Communists. The whole world bought into this grand deception but Communism never died. They simply learned to do what Western globalists did–use puppets to front as conservatives and agents of change.

As bad as things are looking economically, I don’t believe the PTB will allow it to get so bad that they lose control. But if it does and the public threatens to throw the rascals out, I believe you will see the PTB engineer a false reform with fresh faces just like the Italians and the Soviets did. They’ll never let a real change agent like Paul take the lead, any more than they will ever let the real critics of the 9/11 conspiracy have a role in any new investigations.

The system is rigged in a very multi-layered and sophisticated way and it takes a great deal of expertise to see through it. But, with it all, we must keep trying to position the movement to take advantage of any faults and mistakes the powers that be might make as they conspire to take down liberty. Each succeeding conspiracy, whether it be the JFK assassination, the Oklahoma City bombing, or 9/11, brings more people to greater understanding–never enough, sadly, to reverse our course, but certainly enough to constitute a worrisome resistance to those intent upon delivering us to a NWO. Building a remnant is always worth fighting for, even if we can’t save our nation temporally.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I think he is wrong. This whole article is straight out of the business as usual file. The nature of the game has changed. The combine has been working tirelessly for years towards and end and we are fast approaching that end. Joel must not believe what he preaches about loss of U.S. sovereignty, the Amero, The North American Union, the New World Order. When does he think these things will come if ever? Or is it always on the horizon? He too is of the "well it didn't happen last time" camp. That is the exact thing my Father-in-law told me about housing, my first counselor in our bishopric told us about housing, my brother in laws told me about housing, and just about everyone else I warned (my in laws were/are heavily invested in land, appraisal, and construction). But they were wrong, housing did go down and is expected to drop a good 50% in many many markets. It happened because the game changed, but few saw the change. Some of us saw derivatives for what they are though. Some of us saw the rampant speculation and were not iffy about it but certain of the outcome knowing full well what had to occur. It would take a hefty book to catalog why the U.S. hasn't collapsed until now and why it will now, but I believe that is the case. I believe it for a great number of reasons, but suffice it to say the game has changed, it is different now. Joel has obviously grown weary and has developed a more than healthy skepticism of his own theories. I call that apathy. I am not calling Joel out, I think he is one of the good guys, I just think he's missing it on several fronts. I don't know why, but he is.

I do not expect a giant crash all at once where the lights go out and anarchy reigns and we go through instant hell. I think people hear what I am saying and interpret it wrong. What I am saying is that the cycles are done. Not that the descent will not be cyclical, but that each low will be lower and each high will be lower in a steady descent. But it will be hard to see in many respects because things fall together. If you're sitting in you living room with the drapes closed and you feel like your house is in free fall, as long as your furniture falls as fast as your house and things don't move around, you figure you are just sick, until you open the drapes and see that indeed everything is falling together.

I don't know if we will expand the War of Terror. I don't know if oil will go to $200/barrel. I don't know if we will have another 9/11. I don't know if we will see the bird flu here or something else, with quarantines etc... or not. I don't know when we'll see the next big Hurricane, or earthquake, or famine, or pestilence. I don't know if the missionaries will be called home this conference, next, or ten years from now. I don't know when the call will come to gather to Zion.

But, the U.S. economy will never recover from this slump. We are on our way to becoming another Russia or worse, in more ways than just governmentally. Socially, economically, internationally, etc... We have had our chances, and we have just been in the seven+ really phenomenally good years (the world has seldom seen such extravagance) and we have been warned, time and time again. I sincerely doubt we will ever get the opportunity to buy wheat, oats, corn, sugar, etc... that cheap again. We will work more for less. We will either war till we are completely neutralized, or have to accept a back seat on the world stage (my guess is the first option).

Whisperfox uses the analogy of going over the waterfall. Perhaps more like, shooting the chutes, but we're going over and down no matter how you look at it. To believe otherwise is to assert opinion absent logic or fact. The basis for such a contrary opinion simply does not exist.

[Jnewby]

I don't disagree with hardly anything you expressed as I believe the same thing. However, if what you say is true and it has been carefully planned by those in position to do such, would it not make sense to continue the gradual road to bondage that is working instead of a major crisis that might serve to awaken the slumbering masses from their sleep? After all, the masses are pretty fat, dumb and happy as it is while slowly surrendering their nation, freedoms and so forth without so much as a whimper.

Just an interesting thought process that makes sense until the final phase kicks in.

[ShawnC]

The final phase is kicking in. I think that the combine has certainly been planning these events all along. Enough is in place that major events and major steps toward NWO will not meet with enough resistance to stop them. There are simply not enough people awake as to these things. I believe that when such things take place, the majority of the sheeple will look to the combine to "save" them. That is how the final bondage will come upon us. That is where I believe things like the mark of the beast will come from also. We need to reach a bad enough point economically ourselves to abandon the current system and look to the Lord for the better system. I believe Harold B. Lee prophesied of this. Can any one find that quote?

Shawn

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Not sure on the quote.

I agree. This is that time. Read the Georgia Guide Stones again. Population reduction and then control is a major component as is war and (order out of) chaos. War is probably the historically favored tool, preferably (socialist propaganda to usher in communistic totalitarianism) revolution.

We do not fit well into their agenda as we are too fat, too lazy, too expensive, too unproductive, to be of much real use. They have (likely on purpose) transitioned our employment overseas as well as crammed our replacements through our universities and high tech industries. Likely plundered our resources and reserves. They don't need us for anything anymore.

They aren't going to "pay" (as they see it) for the Baby Boomer's retirements. They aren't going to benevolently raise wages with or ahead of monetary forces.

Evidence of the whittling down is found in "global warming," in the Media circus of Britney and Paris, in torture and the stripping of rights, in the signing statements and preparations for Marshall law and a new 9/11, etc... all of these things have their purpose and they aren't put on the books a decade ahead of when they are used, they are point of need inasmuch as possible (with obvious attempts at coordination).

I cannot think of one reason why they would allow us to continue (at great cost to all). We are the worlds parasites (read confessions of an economic hitman, look into our 700+ military bases, look into the imf and world bank, compare what we cost the world in terms of our standard of living and then what we produce).

Read None Dare Call it a Conspiracy and the writings of Ezra Taft Benson (as I assume you have) and you will see that they have milked it for quite some time, but my point is that the milk has run out. There is no prospect of anything more than diminishing amounts of sour milk.

Otherwise, they wouldn't be "pulling" (think building 7) our economy, they would be inflating the monetary base and socializing the losses, they would be passing new subsidies for farms to plant the heck out of corn and wheat, they (especially the Bush administration) would be putting in pro industry judges and opening many more gold and silver mines, they would be drilling in ANWAR and building the Natural Gas line in AK, they would be targeting taxation on gas rather than income (as an economic stimulus), they would be strengthening the military and retrenching rather than running it into the ground and spreading it across the globe, they would be cracking down on predatory lending and usury (not just check cashing places to the military), they would be encouraging rather than actively interfering with innovative new technologies, they would be tightening their belts and sticking up for American industry (Smoot-Hawley style), they would rather than hide unemployment rates, fix them by encouraging industry, by starting a new homestead act that divested some small percentage of the vast federal tracts out West to those willing to utilize it, they would promote self sufficiency and micro power generation, they would manage the resources for the benefit of the people, etc...

The anecdotal evidence is overwhelming.

The real questions I have relate to their plans and the ordering and magnitude of their intentions as well as their real (and perhaps unintended) consequences?

[Jnewby]

Real and un-intended consequences is an interesting thought. You see, I feel while all this is coming down, that our saving grace may well be that there is no honor among thieves. There are several various bodies that all feel they should inherit the top of the pyramid so to speak as this plays out, several factions that while working in tandem, are working for their own gain. That being the case, things have to go a certain way in order for that to happen. If not, all hell breaks loose.

I've loved the thought processes on this thread and hope a few more chime in.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I would argue that your assertion is not simply a potential but a prophesied reality. The wicked punish the wicked, all things are turned for the Lord's purposes and the saints good. Satan seeks to replicate and falsify the second coming (lo here, lo there). He seeks to create a one world government (which in reality is a false Zion). He will be the one that shakes the nations, that spreads the war and famine and desolation that separate the wicked form the righteous and cleanse the inward vessel. This will accomplish the Lord's purposes of purifying a people fit to receive the Savior. I think that satan's counterfeits have to be so close in order to fool "even the very elect were it possible," that they ultimately will pave the way for the work we are engaged in. Our job is to outlast satan, requiring the oft touted "patience and faith."

[Bridgey]

Hope you don't mind me jumping in here. I am very interested in this topic and must add that I have always had a very high respect for what Swiss Mrs & Pitchfire have said about this topic. It seems to be based on years of research and experience.

If what I have also read is right, I think it is useful to look further down the track at what they (NWO) are trying to achieve, to work out what is happening now and in the near future. In short, I believe they are trying to weaken America to the point that it the World no longer has confidence in the USA as the worlds police or as a superpower. To the point that as prophesied their military will become weak enough that other nations (probably Russia and China) will take a chance at trying to overthrow the USA (perhaps WW3 starting). Whether this is on their own backs or part of a NWO conspiracy, I'm not sure. It will be after this, and continuing NWO propaganda eg. Global Warming, terrorism, threat of new wars, etc. that a One World Governement will have the best chance of establishing and most importantly welcomed (probably out of fear) by a significant part of the World's population or sheep as we have been called. There is no chance a One World Government can form while America stays strong.

Keeping this in mind, I believe all that Swiss Mrs & Pitchfire is saying re: the economy fits in perfectly. Added to this, remembering that because paper money has no real value and isn't based on the Gold standard and has basically been created out of nothing (watch the Money as debt video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 2583451279 ) the powers that are basically claim all repossessed houses, assets, etc for nothing. Money they didn't even own in the first place. Real Gadianton Robbers.

Anyway, I too believe this current situation will be the start of the collapse of America. I don't think petrol and food prices along with other things will ever get any cheaper than what they are now. Get use to a lower standard of living. Those that aren't prepared will be in the bread lines in the not too distant future.

[lundbaek]

To Bridgey's comments about the purpose for the deliberate weakening of America I add my comment that a world government can really come together only after the United States is out of the way. The United States may still at this time have at its disposal the spiritual and material forces to prevent a worldwide satanic dictatorship from taking total control of the world's natural, economic, and human resources. But when Americans are reduced to poverty and weakness, they will be more willing to submit to the planned socialist dictatorship. I've see this gradually happening in recent decades.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

I think that America will destroy itself from the inside out, the outside forces will have little that they will need to do to overcome her.

If we can 'turn around' things from where they are now, then that is a hope that we have, I am just not sure if it is a time for restoring liberty or if there will have to be a cleanse first. I Nephi I was reading that we can avoid it, if we turn back to God, but if we do not and we turn from him, then the cleansing.