LDS Freedom Forum

I was shown a panoramic view of His earthly ministry: His baptism, His teaching, His healing the sick and lame, the mock trial, His Crucifixion, His Resurrection and Ascension. There followed scenes of His earthly ministry to my mind in impressive detail, confirming scriptural eyewitness accounts. I was being taught, and the eyes of my understanding were opened by the Holy Spirit of God so as to behold many things.

kenh wrote:As far as the term "special witness" is concerned:
The word “special” comes from the word “spec” which means "to see" as is spectacles or glasses.
The word “witness” comes from the word “wit” which means to know.
So both together would mean someone who has both seen and thus knows. There are many “special witnesses” of Jesus Christ. Those ordained are the Twelve and First Presidency, the others would be those members of the church who likewise have seen and do know that Jesus Christ without a doubt truly IS the Resurrected Savior and Redeemer of the world, these constitute the special witnesses of the Lord
We are all commanded to be special witnesses in the same sense that we personally have seen and know that Jesus lives. D&C 93:1 / 101:38

Melissa wrote:Its not just the prophet who can experience this. Yes the prophet is the one who would receive revelation for the world and for the church. Others can also hear the voice of the lord for themselves and their families. Everyone is entitled to this but only pertaining to what they are stewards over.

I have also wondered, when I hear a prophet speak, if he as seen the savior and talked with him as men talk. I dont know, but if Christ is coming here and talking with anyone my bet is on the prophet.

Isint there a special room in the Temple for this purpose? I also know there are some Temples where this room (cant remember the ame of it) is large enought to accomidate the prophet and apostles.

mingano wrote:We are excluded until we are not.

AussieOi wrote:So members are swine but they can hint at things to enable speculative anecdotes revolve.

That's what cults do.

I'm sorry, but the video let's go shopping sealed it for me.

I think the Lord gave us the keys but he is found elsewhere. But as I said, the I don't know how he operates

AussieOi wrote:I think we are labouring under a silence from the heavens

gruden2.0 wrote:

AussieOi wrote:I think we are labouring under a silence from the heavens

I wouldn't be quite so cynical.

The leadership is no different than the general church body. Some have seen the Savior face-to-face, and some haven't. Anyone who wants this experience has to pay the price. There is no exception. It is an individual path that is not dependent on rank. There are nobodies among us who have had the most exalted experiences and for whom the heavens are opened (and speaking). There are high church leaders who have died expressing great uncertainty as to their ultimate fate. Brigham Young said he never spoke to the Lord face-to-face.

If you listen very carefully, it's very clear who has and who hasn't. Most haven't. If the heavens are silent, it is our fault, not theirs.

gruden2.0 wrote:

AussieOi wrote:I think we are labouring under a silence from the heavens

I wouldn't be quite so cynical.

The leadership is no different than the general church body. Some have seen the Savior face-to-face, and some haven't. Anyone who wants this experience has to pay the price. There is no exception. It is an individual path that is not dependent on rank. There are nobodies among us who have had the most exalted experiences and for whom the heavens are opened (and speaking). There are high church leaders who have died expressing great uncertainty as to their ultimate f

ate. Brigham Young said he never spoke to the Lord face-to-face.

If you listen very carefully, it's very clear who has and who hasn't. Most haven't. If the heavens are silent, it is our fault, not theirs.

AussieOi wrote:Listen carefully
Joseph Smith said he did
Brigham Young said he didnt
Paul told what we saw
The early apostles wrote of what they saw

Why are we as members swine.?
Why would Christmas come and chat, but nothing new happens
No new revelation
Nothing
But we have Scripture telling us there will be silence in heavens.
But that's not how. Oh no .
But yes this is the last minute of the last hour of the last day we are told

juniper wrote:Wasn't the brother of Jared commanded to not share his experience of seeing the savior and all things. Until the lord reveils it in his own due time. So I believe that the special witnesses are commanded to not reveil their special experience, but are commanded to bare witness of him and that he truly does live for they have seen him and their knowledge of him is perfect. Not by faith alone!

2 Nephi:32
2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3aAngels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.

5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will ashow unto you all things what ye should do.

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

awake wrote:

AussieOi wrote:Listen carefully
Joseph Smith said he did
Brigham Young said he didnt
Paul told what we saw
The early apostles wrote of what they saw

Why are we as members swine.?
Why would Christmas come and chat, but nothing new happens
No new revelation
Nothing
But we have Scripture telling us there will be silence in heavens.
But that's not how. Oh no .
But yes this is the last minute of the last hour of the last day we are told

I agree.

How could someone talk with Christ, especially repeatedly, and still do things completely contrary to his Gospel and laws?

I wouldn't believe anyone has seen or talked with Christ unless they are Christlike themselves and uphold his laws and Gospel in every way. I don't know of anyone today who does that.

After All We Can Do
August 21, 2012 by John M. Pontius
UnBlog # 514

There is a certain mindset among us that is hostile to our spiritual growth, which is that we must by our own discipline and strength “work out our own salvation” – and then “after all we can do”, somewhere at the end of our lives, that Jesus Christ will get involved and make up for what we were not able to do during our lifetime, and in the end we will be “saved by Grace”.

The flaw in this thinking is that it places upon we mere mortals, a burden we cannot hope to carry – that of keeping every commandment, doing every good thing, raising good families, paying our tithing and a million other laws and rules, by our strength and self-discipline – waiting for the day that it is finally enough, and Jesus Christ finally forgives those things we couldn’t do and fills in the blanks. This sets us up for a lifetime of struggle that isn’t going to take us where we are anticipating.

The truth of how this works is that we are given choices in our life. We know right and wrong because of the Light of Christ which we receive throughout our lives by Christ’s grace. So, it is by grace that we even know what is good and bad. It is by grace that we know what to do and are empowered to do it. Thus it is by grace that we receive faith, truth, insight, inspiration, direction, guidance, truth and empowerment from the beginning to the end of our lives.

As we obey Christ He continually dispenses more grace, and we are changed further. We become more like Him because He changes us. We receive “grace for grace” – our grace dispensed to our fellow man in exchange for His grace dispensed to us, and we are changed in our inner being by a small degree every time we obey Christ’s voice.

Thus we live by grace every moment of every day.

The misunderstanding is that we think we must work out our own salvation – and then – somewhere at the end of our lives – after all we can do, the atonement is applied. In this context, working out one’s own salvation is impossible. When someone embarks upon a quest of doing everything right, obeying every law, overcoming every personal weakness, disciplining our every thought and action, they are setting themselves up for long and difficult failure. Eventually, every mortal, in every walk of life, will realize that, unaided by Christ, they cannot achieve anything near perfection, and in deep disillusionment and poverty of soul, they will fall on their knees and beg for divine intervention.

Mortals are fallen creatures, which means we are by our nature incompatible with God and cannot endure His presence in our fallen state. The effect of the fall is operative upon us “forever and ever” (Mosiah 3:19). No matter how “good” we try to be, we are still fallen. Only Christ has the power to change us from our fallen state to a redeemed and sanctified one.

The real means of “working out our own salvation” is in acknowledging that we can’t do it, and then submitting our will to Christ’s in everything. It takes most of a lifetime to learn this degree of submission to our Savior. When we do He changes us, and upgrades and purifies us until He overcomes the fall, sanctifies us out of our “natural” state, and we become in small measure like Him – until we become “perfect in Christ’.

When we come to the end of our lives, having walked in His grace, having partaken of His redeeming, upgrading and empowering atonement, then we will have been “saved by Grace”, not in that last moment alone, but throughout our lives. And it will have been “after all we can do” because it is above and far beyond all we ever could have done by our own works.

Then, every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. In that great day of judgment we will clearly see that He created us, He gave us life, He sustained our lives, He taught us right from wrong and empowered us to choose the right, and then He forgave us when we finally recognized our dependence upon Him and repented of our childish desire “work out our own salvation” by ourselves and in our own way.

We will worship Him then and forever because we will finally know that we walked our entire lives in His grace, and a billion times “after all we could do” we were and are saved by His Grace.

Brother John

© August 2012, John M. Pontius, all rights reserved. Non-commercial reproduction permitted.

Mark wrote:

awake wrote:
I agree.

How could someone talk with Christ, especially repeatedly, and still do things completely contrary to his Gospel and laws?

I wouldn't believe anyone has seen or talked with Christ unless they are Christlike themselves and uphold his laws and Gospel in every way. I don't know of anyone today who does that.

This article is for you Sister Awake. The Grace of Christ is such a misunderstood principle today both in and out of the church. All the Book of Mormon prophets invite us to come unto Christ and partake of his goodness and mercy. That is a literal invitation given to even the least of the Saints as Joseph taught. Our condemnation is that we don't really believe this invitation given by the Savior himself and all his holy Prophets applies to us in mortality. We condemn ourselves by not exercising faith enough to partake of a fullness of the gospel's promises given to every Saint.

Mark wrote:Our condemnation is that we don't really believe this invitation given by the Savior himself and all his holy Prophets applies to us in mortality. We condemn ourselves by not exercising faith enough to partake of a fullness of the gospel's promises given to every Saint.

mingano wrote:

Mark wrote:Our condemnation is that we don't really believe this invitation given by the Savior himself and all his holy Prophets applies to us in mortality. We condemn ourselves by not exercising faith enough to partake of a fullness of the gospel's promises given to every Saint.

The prophets have said lots of things that weren't true or as universally applicable as they were supposed to be. I have trouble believing that the promises made apply to me in mortality or out because certain experiments, personally attempted, failed. Absolutely and repeatedly and spectacularly. So don't tell me about finding love and acceptance and peace within God's kingdom - that applies to some, but clearly not all because I am, have always been, and will always be one of the excluded ones. I do not expect any kind of reward because I've always been cheated out of earned rewards in the past and, quite frankly, can't think of anything that I want. And if all it takes is a thought and everything is miraculously fixed then I'll be pretty offended that something that required no effort wasn't implemented before the damage was done.

Some - even if that set has a single element - are simply excluded. Forever written off and discarded. That's just the way the universe works and there isn't anything that anybody on this planet can say to convince me otherwise.