Church policy: look like us or get out

[wolfman]

Here's Jesus eating with sinners, and the Pharisee come up and find fault with Jesus. They chasten Jesus for associating with sinners. It's against their traditions.

Note the sinner -- you can tell he's a sinner by the long hair, beard and -- gasp! -- headband.

Oh no I have a photo of myself and I look just like that. I'm also on a motorcycle to boot! Don't you know that's really why the nanny State of Utah doesn't have helmet laws? They WANT the evil sinners to die!

[Deborah000]

To me we are talking about respect - respect of the counsel given to us by the Lords anointed servants and ultimately respect to the Lord and his Church. I would never compare them to the Pharasies of Jesus's time. That IS offensive!

The Lord has given us our bodies, the envy of Satan's minions, and I don't think it is wrong to ask us to dress in a respectful manner for church activities. We are loved and given so much by our Father, i would hope that we could in some small measure show our gratitude.

I totally agree with Juliet that this is what we should be teaching our youth.

People are "pharisees" who look at the letter of the law so much that they don't even understand why they are doing something, whether they are in leadership positions or not. In fact the pharisees WERE the religious leaders of the Jews. If someone is in direct violation of counsel given by the 1st presidency and quorum of the 12 (handbook)they should be called on it, even if its the bishop.Its not up to your discretion if the brethren have spoken on it. It like saying: "You don't have to obey the law of chastity to have a temple recommend because I'm the Bishop and I said so"
Again Handbook 2 states white shirts and ties are recommended but not required & people shouldn't be required to be alike in dress and appearance. Therefore if a Bishop is requiring people to be alike in dress and appearance he is in fact the one who is disrespecting the counsel given to us by the brethren.

I think "casting your eyes upon the serpent" was an example where Moses related the will if the Lord to the people and they were expected to follow " the letter of the law" or perish. It seemed a pretty easy thing to do but yet some of the people could follow that simple direction. Maybe they thought Moses was making or up or maybe they thought the Lord didn't know what He was doing or maybe Satan put it into their minds that they were being blind sheeple. Whatever the reason many perished. Please note the Spirit did not guide the people here - the word of the lord through His prophet
Maybe because I found the Lords Restored Church when I was an adult, I do not take having a prophet as a light thing. I am very grateful, especially with the terrible judgements soon coming our way. I am thankful to have the safety of the Lords guide in these troubled times.

[Deborah000]

So sorry for the misspelling - I am typing on my iPhone - never a good thing!

[Eddie Lyle]

My future Missionaries! My littlest grandson has Autism. We love him SOOOO much!

Cute kids all wearing the worldly designs of this company http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/2 ... 83950.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Juliette]

My future Missionaries! My littlest grandson has Autism. We love him SOOOO much!

Cute kids all wearing the worldly designs of this company http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/2 ... 83950.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I didn't know that.

[Juliette]

Ditto linj2fly!

[Juliette]

Well folks, Its movie night for my hubby and me. I will be back later for all you bullies to pick on. )
I can't say it hasn't been fun, because it hasn't! LOL

[ATL Wake]

I think that what is lost in this is that an African-American wanted to go to EFY. This likely could have been an amazing opportunity for his testimony to grow. It would also have been an excellent opportunity for all the other little white boys and girls at EYI to experience different culture and rejoice in the fact that the gospel is in fact spreading.

To ask this man to unbraid his hair is in essence to ask him to abandon his culture. He needs to explain to his friends why he is unbraiding his hair. And since there is no rational reason other than mere societal conformity, even if he did do it, his friends would rightly think less of the church.

OR, he could have returned and been an example to his friends and the church could grow in different communities.

Sad story.

Think about the hypocrisy for a minute. You ask him to sacrifice a social custom, only to take part in another social custom. Why ask a person to do something you are not willing to do?

[BroJones]

....
OR, he could have returned and been an example to his friends and the church could grow in different communities.

Sad story.

Think about the hypocrisy for a minute. You ask him to sacrifice a social custom, only to take part in another social custom. Why ask a person to do something you are not willing to do?

Well said, ATL Wake.

[linj2fly]

Well folks, Its movie night for my hubby and me. I will be back later for all you bullies to pick on. )
I can't say it hasn't been fun, because it hasn't! LOL

If by bullying, you mean name calling and taunting, don't hold your breath. /:)

[MelissaM]

....
OR, he could have returned and been an example to his friends and the church could grow in different communities.

Sad story.

Think about the hypocrisy for a minute. You ask him to sacrifice a social custom, only to take part in another social custom. Why ask a person to do something you are not willing to do?

Well said, ATL Wake.

Yes, The crux of it all is that this is not like asking him to refrain from something like say- taking delight in murder. See Alma 17:14-16. There is no testimony, nor doctrine, nor repentence here. It is simply the white shirt-a-fication of a native people by a cultural construct based in Western business attire. There is no testimony in this. It cannot sustain itself and the youth and young adults have it figured out. We are losing our youth and young adults when we demand a culturally constructed dress code and forget the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith.

Oh ye gentiles!

[karend77]

From an apostle of the Lord- Dallin Oaks:
Elder Jeffrey R. Holland gave a valuable teaching on this subject in general conference 13 years ago. Since most of our current deacons were not even born when these words were last spoken here, I repeat them for their benefit and that of their parents and teachers: “May I suggest that wherever possible a white shirt be worn by the deacons, teachers, and priests who handle the sacrament. For sacred ordinances in the Church we often use ceremonial clothing, and a white shirt could be seen as a gentle reminder of the white clothing you wore in the baptismal font and an anticipation of the white shirt you will soon wear into the temple and onto your missions” (“This Do in Remembrance of Me,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, 68).

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... e+shirt%22" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thomas S Monson - prophet, said:
Servants of the Lord have always counseled us to dress appropriately to show respect for our Heavenly Father and for ourselves. The way you dress sends messages about yourself to others and often influences the way you and others act. Dress in such a way as to bring out the best in yourself and those around you. Avoid extremes in clothing and appearance, including tattoos and piercings
http://www.lds.org/liahona/2010/05/prep ... +standards" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I’ve lived long enough to have witnessed much of the metamorphosis of society’s morals. Where once the standards of the Church and the standards of society were mostly compatible, now there is a wide chasm between us, and it’s growing ever wider.
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... +standards" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BlueMoon5]

The church has a right to impose dress codes how they see fit.

= look like us or get out.

You commit a gross distortion of Juliette's postion--a gross distortion amplified by a cheap shot. Juliette hasn't demanded that other parents dress their children as she dresses hers; hence, your statement "look like us or get out" is absurdly, wildly wide of the mark. She wants her children to be the best they can be (that is [gasp!] her prerogative as their mother). A reasonable starting point toward that goal is to dress her children as the leaders of the Church dress, inasmuch as they are our exemplars (or at least should be for faithful Latter-day Saints).

There is truth to the "slippery slope" principle, and I think it has special relevance to living the gospel: get careless with the little things, and it becomes progressively easier to get careless with the big things. That's especially applicable to children in their formative years.

Rather that condemning Juliette, you (and others of your crowd) should commend her as an obedient, devout Mother in Zion.

In the meantime, dress as you wish; I'm confident you will be warmly welcomed in any ward/branch in the Church.

[MelissaM]

[quote="BlueMoon5]
In the meantime, dress as you wish; I'm confident you will be warmly welcomed in any ward/branch in the Church.[/quote]

=)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =))

[BlueMoon5]

[quote="BlueMoon5]
In the meantime, dress as you wish; I'm confident you will be warmly welcomed in any ward/branch in the Church.

=)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =))[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Left you with no verbal rejoinder, eh? Because you are overtaken by cynicism, you have no recourse. Tsk, tsk.

[MelissaM]

Just catching my breath from the laugh attack. Your statement has no reality in my experience on the Wasatch Front.

[ATL Wake]

She wants her children to be the best they can be (that is [gasp!] her prerogative as their mother). A reasonable starting point toward that goal is to dress her children as the leaders of the Church dress, inasmuch as they are our exemplars (or at least should be for faithful Latter-day Saints).

Dress is not a reasonable starting point, as it has NOTHING to do with becoming like Christ.

Alma 32: 2 "...for behold, they were cast out of the synagogues because of the coarseness of their apparel—"

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Alma 60: 23 Do ye suppose that God will look upon you as guiltless while ye sit still and behold these things? Behold I say unto you, Nay. Now I would that ye should remember that God has said that the inward vessel shall be bcleansed first, and then shall the outer vessel be cleansed also.

It appears that the Lord cares more about what's inside than what's outside. So what is it that is important on the inside?

2 And again, more blessed are they who shall believe in your words... and come down into the depths of humility and be baptized, for they shall be visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and shall receive a remission of their sins.
3 Yea, blessed are the poor in spirit...
4 And again, blessed are all they that mourn,...
5 And blessed are the meek...
6 And blessed are all they who do hunger and thirst after righteousness...
7 And blessed are the merciful...
8 And blessed are all the pure in heart...
9 And blessed are all the peacemakers...
10 And blessed are all they who are apersecuted for my name’s sake...

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

When will the Saints learn that becoming like Christ is obtaining these attributes and it's not about dress, coke, movies, or appearance.[/color]

There is truth to the "slippery slope" principle, and I think it has special relevance to living the gospel: get careless with the little things, and it becomes progressively easier to get careless with the big things. That's especially applicable to children in their formative years.

Perhaps, however, dressing in a white shirt and having braids in your hair is not a little thing, it is nothing.

[happy@life]

Wow.....all these pages of blasting back and forth on a story from someone elses blog, and we don't even know if it is a true story. We do know these people we are blasting here and are showing meaness 8-| just because we don't agree with them! Can't we show a little kindness and class, or is that too demanding?

For a forum that claims to be seeking Christ, I'm afraid we are missing the boat!

[BlueMoon5]

She wants her children to be the best they can be (that is [gasp!] her prerogative as their mother). A reasonable starting point toward that goal is to dress her children as the leaders of the Church dress, inasmuch as they are our exemplars (or at least should be for faithful Latter-day Saints).

: Dress is not a reasonable starting point, as it has NOTHING to do with becoming like Christ.

Are you quite sure of that? The leaders of our Church, whom I presume you sustain, have encouraged us to dress "up," not "down," for most Church meetings. Sustaining our leaders includes a component of obedience, and obedience is requisite for "becoming like Christ."

Alma 32: 2 "...for behold, they were cast out of the synagogues because of the coarseness of their apparel—"

Who cast them out?

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

You cite a beautiful scripture in which emphasis is placed on the hearts of the Father's children. I agree with it. That does not foreclose, however, on the Brethren's encouragement to dress appropriately for Church meetings.

Alma 60: 23 Do ye suppose that God will look upon you as guiltless while ye sit still and behold these things? Behold I say unto you, Nay. Now I would that ye should remember that God has said that the inward vessel shall be bcleansed first, and then shall the outer vessel be cleansed also.

The concluding clause makes it clear that God does not dismiss the importance of the "outer vessel," your supposition notwithstanding.

: It appears that the Lord cares more about what's inside than what's outside.

Of course He cares more about what's inside than what's outside. Isn't that a "given"? Has Juliette suggested anything to the contrary? You offer an answer to a useless question.

: So what is it that is important on the inside?

Nice, appropriate list.

: When will the Saints learn that becoming like Christ is obtaining these attributes and it's not about dress, coke, movies, or appearance.

It is, however, about following the counsel of living prophets.

There is truth to the "slippery slope" principle, and I think it has special relevance to living the gospel: get careless with the little things, and it becomes progressively easier to get careless with the big things. That's especially applicable to children in their formative years.

: Perhaps, however, dressing in a white shirt and having braids in your hair is not a little thing, it is nothing.

I suspect it is "nothing" to those who have difficulty accepting inspired counsel; hence, your comments are unwittingly self-disclosing.

[Elizabeth]

My boys always have worn white shirts and ties to Church to show respect and follow LDS Church standards. Surely that is not too much to ask.

[MelissaM]

My boys always have worn white shirts and ties to Church to show respect and follow LDS Church standards. Surely that is not too much to ask.

Accept that it is not doctrine. Counsel of man is not doctrine.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/a ... n-doctrine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Surely that is not too much to ask. When a demand is made to trade culture for culture it rings like: "Look like us or get out."

[tmac]

Personally, I don't have any particular problem with white shirts -- for those who feel like a white shirt means something and that is what they want to wear -- but (even though I may wear one) how can a necktie be equated with respect for anyone or any thing, let alone anything of genuine substance, not to mention anything of spiritual substance?

Since when does a necktie genuinely equate to anything meaningful?

[tmac]

the end result = look like us or get out.

So what I think you're saying Brent is that conformity and uniformity seem to be a lot more important to many in the Church than a lot of other probably more substantive, and genuinely more important things. I do think that is a very strong message the Church and many of its members are determined to send.

[BlueMoon5]

You cite a beautiful scripture in which emphasis is placed on the hearts of the Father's children. I agree with it. That does not foreclose, however, on the Brethren's encouragement to dress appropriately for Church meetings.

hey, this is the point I was making. all the words to the contrary, no matter how they have a "right" or if God wants everyone dressed in a white shirt and tie... that does not foreclose on the fact that the end result

= look like us or get out.

You make a quintessential non sequitur; i.e., 1) our leaders have encouraged us to dress "up" for Church meetings; 2) they have not said, subsequent to that counsel, that a non-compliant person must "get out." Item 2) does not follow from 1), but I give you credit for a rich imagination.

[Juliette]

You make a quintessential non sequitur; i.e., 1) our leaders have encouraged us to dress "up" for Church meetings; 2) they have not said, subsequent to that counsel, that a non-compliant person must "get out." Item 2) does not follow from 1), but I give you credit for a rich imagination.

I have not made anything but the observation that regardless of (insert argument of your choice) that the end result is

look like us or get out.

so many posts on this thread seek to change the issue. your silly posit that I am making a quintessential non sequitur does not address the problem, and that problem is a real thing, even if it stems from false perceptions or precepts.



if you say, for example "is that too much to ask" then you are furthing the problem. you are not addressing it. you are in effect supporting "you need to look like us or your not welcome because "THATS NOT TO MUCH TO ASK'

well, the problem is NOT centered on IF IT IS TOO MUCH TO ASK. the problem is

= look like us or get out


if you say

"the church has a right to have standards"

you are furthering the problem, you are not addressing it. you are in effect supporting " the church has a right to have standards"

well, the problem is NOT centered on IF THE CHURCH HAS A RIGHT TO HAVE STANDARDS. the problem is

= look like us or get out.

telling me that I dont get it.. does not address the problem. the problem is large enough that EVERYONE KNOWS IT EXISTS. its not like we dont have 10 thousand threads about it and that this thread was started by an external source and that we KNOW it is an issue. but hey, who cares right. if you cant conform its your problem, because, hell, its really not too much to ask.

Thank-you BlueMoon5 for making sense of this subject. :ymapplause: :ymapplause: