Church policy: look like us or get out

[MelissaM]

Gordon B. Hinckley

" I draw similar strength from a statement made concerning the prophet Elijah, who warned King Ahab of drought and famine to come upon the land. But Ahab scoffed. And the Lord told Elijah to go and hide himself by the brook Cherith, that there he should drink of the brook, and that he would be fed by the ravens. The scripture records a simple and wonderful statement about Elijah: “So he went and did according unto the word of the Lord” (1 Kgs. 17:5).

There was no arguing. There was no excusing. There was no equivocating. Elijah simply “went and did according unto the word of the Lord.” And he was saved from the terrible calamities that befell those who scoffed and argued and questioned."

This is not equitable or applicable. Man ≠ The Lord.

Policy ≠ Doctrine

[Deborah000]

To me we are talking about respect - respect of the counsel given to us by the Lords anointed servants and ultimately respect to the Lord and his Church. I would never compare them to the Pharasies of Jesus's time. That IS offensive!

The Lord has given us our bodies, the envy of Satan's minions, and I don't think it is wrong to ask us to dress in a respectful manner for church activities. We are loved and given so much by our Father, i would hope that we could in some small measure show our gratitude.

I totally agree with Juliet that this is what we should be teaching our youth.

[tmac]

Unfortunately, the "respect" that we often seem to be so concerned about is very shallow, superficial, based on worldly influences -- and it changes with time.

I edited my previous post to add this, but I'm going to repeat it again here:

It's true that our bodies are temples, and we should respect them and clothe them modestly, etc., but beyond that I don't think God really cares that much about any of it. If anything, just the opposite. I have mentioned this before, but not that long ago I was talking to a missionary couple who had just returned from Dominican Republic. In DR, the missionaries and Church leaders felt very good if the men simply wore a shirt of any kind, and the women wore a tank top -- even with plenty of cleavage -- to Church. The reality, especially in what is now a global Church, is that it is all very relative.

I.e., in some parts of the world, just wearing a shirt at all or a clean tank top is showing respect -- again, boils down to intentions, and what's in one's heart. Respect is an inward thing, not an outward thing.

[Juliette]

To me we are talking about respect - respect of the counsel given to us by the Lords anointed servants and ultimately respect to the Lord and his Church. I would never compare them to the Pharasies of Jesus's time. That IS offensive!

The Lord has given us our bodies, the envy of Satan's minions, and I don't think it is wrong to ask us to dress in a respectful manner for church activities. We are loved and given so much by our Father, i would hope that we could in some small measure show our gratitude.

I totally agree with Juliet that this is what we should be teaching our youth.

" Strenght of the Youth"! Thanks Deborah!

[marc]

I understand Juliette to a certain extent. I'm sure her girls were good, obedient girls and that is fine. When I was a kid, i didn't wear fancy white shirts and nice ties. I was a broke little Mexican kid who looked like he picked his church clothes from the Goodwill store. But I was allowed to go to temple trips. And I behaved myself more than the kids, some of who likely lied during their worthiness interview and were irreverent on the trip. There are different variables to consider when following the "rules."

[wolfman]

To me we are talking about respect - respect of the counsel given to us by the Lords anointed servants and ultimately respect to the Lord and his Church. I would never compare them to the Pharasies of Jesus's time. That IS offensive!

The Lord has given us our bodies, the envy of Satan's minions, and I don't think it is wrong to ask us to dress in a respectful manner for church activities. We are loved and given so much by our Father, i would hope that we could in some small measure show our gratitude.

I totally agree with Juliet that this is what we should be teaching our youth.

People are "pharisees" who look at the letter of the law so much that they don't even understand why they are doing something, whether they are in leadership positions or not. In fact the pharisees WERE the religious leaders of the Jews. If someone is in direct violation of counsel given by the 1st presidency and quorum of the 12 (handbook)they should be called on it, even if its the bishop.Its not up to your discretion if the brethren have spoken on it. It like saying: "You don't have to obey the law of chastity to have a temple recommend because I'm the Bishop and I said so"
Again Handbook 2 states white shirts and ties are recommended but not required & people shouldn't be required to be alike in dress and appearance. Therefore if a Bishop is requiring people to be alike in dress and appearance he is in fact the one who is disrespecting the counsel given to us by the brethren.

[mingano]

I was a broke little Mexican kid who looked like he picked his church clothes from the Goodwill store. But I was allowed to go to temple trips. And I behaved myself more than the kids, some of who likely lied during their worthiness interview and were irreverent on the trip. There are different variables to consider when following the "rules."

Coach, I sincerely apologize from the abuse heaped on you by people like Jules.

[tmac]

Coach, I sincerely apologize from the abuse heaped on you by people like Jules.

Jules?

I don't want to make any assumptions, but did you mean Julliette?

[mingano]

Coach, I sincerely apologize from the abuse heaped on you by people like Jules.

Jules?

Did you mean Julliette?

Yeah... that's my nickname for her. I guess I should spell it jewels to make the intent clear.

[farfromhome]

Agree totally with Wolfman AND DrJones:

wolfman: People are "pharisees" who look at the letter of the law so much that they don't even understand why they are doing something, whether they are in leadership positions or not. In fact the pharisees WERE the religious leaders of the Jews. If someone is in direct violation of counsel given by the 1st presidency and quorum of the 12 (handbook)they should be called on it, even if its the bishop.

John chapter 2 -- Jesus clears his "Father's HOUSE" of moneychangers...
He was not pleased with these guys, and look what he was wearing! That hair and beard and sandals!

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 94610aRCRD" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Consider the cleansing of Jesus' Church to come, D&C 112: "upon my HOUSE shall it begin", he said clearly. Will he clear out the modern-day Pharisees and moneychangers? I think so, but it's His call.

24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

Jesus is just (as well as merciful to the repentant).

[MelissaM]

To me we are talking about respect - respect of the counsel given to us by the Lords anointed servants and ultimately respect to the Lord and his Church. I would never compare them to the Pharasies of Jesus's time. That IS offensive!

The Lord has given us our bodies, the envy of Satan's minions, and I don't think it is wrong to ask us to dress in a respectful manner for church activities. We are loved and given so much by our Father, i would hope that we could in some small measure show our gratitude.

I totally agree with Juliet that this is what we should be teaching our youth.

People are "pharisees" who look at the letter of the law so much that they don't even understand why they are doing something, whether they are in leadership positions or not. In fact the pharisees WERE the religious leaders of the Jews. If someone is in direct violation of counsel given by the 1st presidency and quorum of the 12 (handbook)they should be called on it, even if its the bishop.Its not up to your discretion if the brethren have spoken on it. It like saying: "You don't have to obey the law of chastity to have a temple recommend because I'm the Bishop and I said so"
Again Handbook 2 states white shirts and ties are recommended but not required & people shouldn't be required to be alike in dress and appearance. Therefore if a Bishop is requiring people to be alike in dress and appearance he is in fact the one who is disrespecting the counsel given to us by the brethren.

So what if it's a Regional Representative?
Recommended and required have been conflated in my ward. My oldest cannot pass sacrament with his blue shirt and tie. It makes me laugh that they are, however, fine with him setting up and breaking it down.

[Juliette]

I was a broke little Mexican kid who looked like he picked his church clothes from the Goodwill store. But I was allowed to go to temple trips. And I behaved myself more than the kids, some of who likely lied during their worthiness interview and were irreverent on the trip. There are different variables to consider when following the "rules."

Coach, I sincerely apologize from the abuse heaped on you by people like Jules.

I apologize if I have heaped abuse upon you Coach. It was not my intention. My children were dressed from yard sales.
I love goodwill and Deserert industries! They both have white shirts and ties! :ymhug:

[wolfman]

The whole reason why the church wrote the handbook was for uniformity in the church. If the handbook comes right out and says something its usually because a ward somewhere was doing it wrong. When I was in the River 3rd ward (West Jordan) I was told to put my left hand behind my back when passing the sacrament. The handbook now specifically states: "The passing of the sacrament should be natural and unobtrusive, not rigid or overly formal. Those who pass the sacrament should not be required to assume any special posture or action, such as holding the left hand behind the back." When I lived in Seattle in the 80's (Kirkland 3rd ward) every fast Sunday they had a tradition that the Elders would pass the sacrament. The handbook now specifically sates: "Melchizedek Priesthood holders should not be invited to bless and pass the sacrament on a regular schedule." I find it disrespectful that the Leadership of this Church has put time and sacred funds into making a Handbook and people would rather rely on their traditions than follow the prophet, I find that disrespectful.

[marc]

I apologize if I have heaped abuse upon you Coach. It was not my intention. My children were dressed from yard sales.
I love goodwill and Deserert industries! They both have white shirts and ties! :ymhug:

I grew up in El Paso, Texas where we have no DI stores with white shirts and LDS values.

:ymhug: Back at ya.

[linj2fly]

Nibley...

The worst sinners, according to Jesus, are not the harlots and publicans, but the religious leaders with their insistence on proper dress and grooming, their careful observance of all the rules, their precious concern for status symbols, their strict legality, their pious patriotism.


"What Is Zion?" CWHN 9:54

Brigham Young quoted by nibley in same essay....

When the books are opened, out of which the human family are to be judged, how disappointed the professedly sanctified, long-faced hypocrites and smoothtoned pharisees will be, when the publicans and harlots enter into the kingdom of heaven before them; people that appeared to be full of evil, but the Lord says they never designed to do wrong; the Devil had power over them, and they suffered in their mortal state a thousand times more than you poor, miserable, canting, cheating, snivelling, hypocritical pharisees; you were dressed in purple and fine linen, and bound burdens upon your weaker brethren that you would not so much as help to lift with your little fingers. Did you ever go without food, suffer with tooth-ache, sore eyes, rheumatism, or the chills and fever? You have fared sumptuously all your days and you condemned to an everlasting hell these poor harlots and publicans who never designed an evil. Are you not guilty of committing an evil with that poor harlot? Yes, and you will be damned while she will be saved.100

Nibley continues...

But the respectable appearance will nearly always win, though the Lord has said, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24).

For Brigham Young, conformity is the danger signal: "I am not a stereotyped Latter-day Saint," he said, "and do not believe in the doctrine. . . . Away with stereotyped 'Mormons'!"107 When, as a boy, he was asked by his father to sign a temperance pledge, he resolutely refused.108 Youth rebelling against respectability? No, honesty resisting social pressure and hypocrisy.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... chapid=928

The EFY rule is policy not doctrine. There is a difference. I wonder if this boy is allowed to pass the sacrament back home....hmmm. I don't remember hairstyles being in the temple worthiness interview. Do they ask the youth about this?? Further this is a question of culture being sacrificed for religion. So how does this boy's hairstyle confict with doctrine or worthiness. give me a break. You know if they had EFY in his place of birth, this would not be an issue. Heck, I had african-american friends at girls-camp that had corn rows(not a gender specific hairstyle)--was not an issue--nor was it an issue for all the other white girls that did--and still do. It's OK for camp but not EFY? Was there some controversy that made the get so specific about hairstyle??

[mingano]

The whole reason why the church wrote the handbook was for uniformity in the church.

Oh for the good old days when the relief society would get into can you top this wars when they baked the sacrament bread fresh every week. In my grandparent's ward this stopped when somebody brought in fresh angel food's cake instead of bread one week. That day a new rule of "only regular wheat bread is allowed".

When I lived in Seattle in the 80's (Kirkland 3rd ward) every fast Sunday they had a tradition that the elders would pass the sacrament. The handbook now specifically sates: Melchizedek Priesthood holders should not be assigned to pass the sacrament on specific Sundays (or something to that effect)

I've seen that happen within the last couple of years... and within many different wards.

[mingano]

I grew up in El Paso, Texas

I love that town. I once flew in there to go on a high adventure trip. While waiting for my pack I noticed that somebody's tent had gone unclaimed and was stashed off to the side of baggage claim waiting for the owner to return. When I flew out a week later the tent was still here. No way it wouldn't have been stolen in SLC's airport.

[Juliette]

I make a special appeal regarding how young women might dress for Church services and Sabbath worship. We used to speak of “best dress” or “Sunday dress,” and maybe we should do so again. In any case, from ancient times to modern we have always been invited to present our best selves inside and out when entering the house of the Lord—and a dedicated LDS chapel is a “house of the Lord.” Our clothing or footwear need never be expensive, indeed should not be expensive, but neither should it appear that we are on our way to the beach. When we come to worship the God and Father of us all and to partake of the sacrament symbolizing the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we should be as comely and respectful, as dignified and appropriate as we can be. We should be recognizable in appearance as well as in behavior that we truly are disciples of Christ, that in a spirit of worship we are meek and lowly of heart, that we truly desire the Savior’s Spirit to be with us always.


To Young Women
Jeffrey R. Holland
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

[tmac]

I love goodwill and Deserert industries! They both have white shirts and ties!

So Juliette has a personal preference for white shirts and ties. That's great. Lot's of people do. But that's exactly the point, and it's pretty irrefutable -- it's all based on the personal preferences, tastes, fancies, etc., of mortal beings.

Just like political preferences, It could be debated ad nauseum with no resolution. It just is what it is.

[wolfman]

So what if it's a Regional Representative?
Recommended and required have been conflated in my ward. My oldest cannot pass sacrament with his blue shirt and tie. It makes me laugh that they are, however, fine with him setting up and breaking it down.

Well our Area Authority came to our stake priesthood meting and asked: "Can someone pass the sacrament with dyed spiked hair and earnings?" He demanded a show of hands as to yea or nay. The response was about 50/50. His point was of course they can they have the priesthood but we should be tactful in our teaching and explanation to the youth. He suggested we might pull the "wild hair" aside and teach them how special the sacrament is and how the focus should be on the Savior and we shouldn't want to present ourselves in such a way that the focus would be taken from our Lord and Savior.

We're not clones people are allowed to have personality.

[marc]

I grew up in El Paso, Texas

I love that town. I once flew in there to go on a high adventure trip. While waiting for my pack I noticed that somebody's tent had gone unclaimed and was stashed off to the side of baggage claim waiting for the owner to return. When I flew out a week later the tent was still here. No way it wouldn't have been stolen in SLC's airport.

I haven't been back there in probably a decade. All I remember are tumbleweeds and the scorching sun. #:-s

[mingano]

I love goodwill and Deserert industries! They both have white shirts and ties!

So Juliette has a personal preference for white shirts and ties. That's great. Lot's of people do. But that's exactly the point, and it's pretty irrefutable -- it's all based on the personal preferences, tastes, fancies, etc., of mortal beings.

Only Jewels stepped up to defend somebody who said that because I don't worship the tie I must have had my temple recommend denied.

[wolfman]

So what if it's a Regional Representative?
Recommended and required have been conflated in my ward. My oldest cannot pass sacrament with his blue shirt and tie. It makes me laugh that they are, however, fine with him setting up and breaking it down.

My guess is that they are worried your son might offend someones tradition.

[BroJones]

Here's Jesus eating with sinners, and the Pharisee come up and find fault with Jesus. They chasten Jesus for associating with sinners. It's against their traditions.

Note the sinner -- you can tell he's a sinner by the long hair, beard and -- gasp! -- headband.

[mingano]

All I remember are tumbleweeds and the scorching sun. #:-s

I love tumbleweeds.

Did you notice the lack of lithium when you left? That water gave everybody a mild buzz after just a couple of days.