Church policy: look like us or get out

[mingano]

http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/20 ... d-culture/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The bishop told Amadou he would not be allowed to attend EFY unless the braids were cut.

Amadou comes from Mali. His family settled here a few years ago and became members of the Church.
Wearing cornrows and braids is a common hairstyle among African men. It has existed for centuries and the patterns used to identify ethnicities as well as social status. Today, for many boys and men of African descent outside of Africa, it is still a form of ethnic affirmation and cultural belonging.

The bishop claims to have no choice but to enforce the EFY guidelines: “no ponytails, pigtails, braids, designs, carvings (including Mohawks) or completely shaved heads.” Also, allowing one boy with braids could create tensions as other participants did change their hairstyle to conform to the norms. Amadou could also be sent back, right at registration, and be obliged to travel the 100 miles back home.

Amadou struggles over his braids and his identity. He may decide not to go to EFY. And, as we have seen with other youth in similar cases, he may not remain active in the Church.

[AussieOi]

a truly inspired man

not

[Fairminded]

What good is attending an indoctrination camp if you're just going to offend the sensibilities of the detainees?

No, I'm not speaking bad of EFY. I went there for two summers. It was lots of fun being herded along partitioned walkways from dorms to cafeteria to lectures like cattle, hearing John Bytheway give the exact same spiel in talk after talk that were all supposed to be about different subjects, going to dances with an average temperature of 85* and being unable to leave for three hours, and getting a CD of songs featuring the theme of the summer accompanied by a LIVE CONCERT from the band that sang them.

Okay, maybe a little. I was filled with youthful enthusiasm and zeal back then so I enjoyed most of it, but looking back it's hard not to laugh at some of the absurdities. I doubt I'd encourage anyone to go, since it really is more an indoctrination into Mormon culture than an edifying experience to increase understanding of gospel doctrine, and I'm not sure I'd want to see any kids I cared about indoctrinated into some of the current prevalent trends in "Mormon" culture.

And my experience was 13 or so years ago. I wonder what it's like now?

[Fiannan]

Well if you let him wear that style you would have to say this guy's style is kosher as well:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/39631091@N03/5700023612/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[karend77]

The church has a right to impose dress codes how they see fit. BYU idaho is even more stringent in that BYU–Idaho's official policy does not permit bib overalls (all styles), flip-flops, and shorts (or capris for girls) of any length on their campus. Yet some kids, who would otherwise complain about this, love to go to BYU-I because they love the smaller feel of the campus and the EFY program there. So, they comply.

Many religions have certain dress codes that need to be followed. Go to the Dome of the Rock, or any muslim mosque, and try and walk in with shoes on and women not having their head covered and you would be kicked out.

Wiki has a whole page explaining dress codes - religious, schools, workplace.

However, their are exceptions. The church has made exceptions on dress codes for missionary service in certain countries, for cultural purposes.

The article does not say whether they tried to contact either the EFY staff or write directly to church headquarters to see if an exception could be made. We need to know much more about the situation before we even can begin to really form any sort of opinion on all parties involved.

[HeirofNumenor]

Many religions have certain dress codes that need to be followed. Go to the Dome of the Rock, or any muslim mosque, and try and walk in with shoes on and women not having their head covered and you would be kicked out.

In 1994, my sister and her husband went to Israel with church archeology group. While there, they visited the Dome of the Rock. When the stepped inside, my sister tripped and fell to the floor. Her husband moved to help her up, and instantly found several automatic rifles and pistols in his face, with the guards screaming at him "Don't you dare touch her!" Do not defile the sanctuary by touching a woman in here!"
Apparently opposite sexes are to have absolutely no physical contact in the Mosque. The guards didn't want to kill my brother-in-law, but they would have done so in order to protect the sanctity of their holy place.

[karend77]

In 1994, my sister and her husband went to Israel with church archeology group. While there, they visited the Dome of the Rock. When the stepped inside, my sister tripped and fell to the floor. Her husband moved to help her up, and instantly found several automatic rifles and pistols in his face, with the guards screaming at him "Don't you dare touch her!" Do not defile the sanctuary by touching a woman in here!"
Apparently opposite sexes are to have absolutely no physical contact in the Mosque. The guards didn't want to kill my brother-in-law, but they would have done so in order to protect the sanctity of their holy place.

Yikes!! I dont remember being separated when our group visited there, but that was 30 years ago. I do remember being completely separated males from females, at the Jerusalem temple wailing wall (and we had to wear a dress). Our tour group was kind enough to let us know what to wear (scarves, long sleeves shirt or a jacket) at the holy sites in the area before we came.

[mingano]

The church has a right to impose

So what? Many people have rights to impose many different things, that doesn't mean that it is a good idea.

What part of absolute, culture-blind mandate equates with gentle persuasion? I'm offended by your statement here.

[Fiannan]

Many religions have certain dress codes that need to be followed. Go to the Dome of the Rock, or any muslim mosque, and try and walk in with shoes on and women not having their head covered and you would be kicked out.

In 1994, my sister and her husband went to Israel with church archeology group. While there, they visited the Dome of the Rock. When the stepped inside, my sister tripped and fell to the floor. Her husband moved to help her up, and instantly found several automatic rifles and pistols in his face, with the guards screaming at him "Don't you dare touch her!" Do not defile the sanctuary by touching a woman in here!"
Apparently opposite sexes are to have absolutely no physical contact in the Mosque. The guards didn't want to kill my brother-in-law, but they would have done so in order to protect the sanctity of their holy place.

Yes, all kinds of folks have customs. Islam is on one extreme of how one should interact with the opposite sex while other cultures might be opposite of that. Yet is God the author of these views or is it culture? I think culture plays a much greater factor.

Oh, and one more note, the US government took out two of three post-Nasser nationalist/secularist leaders in the Middle East (Saddam and Kadaffi) and is now gunning for Assad. Once Islamicist elements take control of the entire region they may be economic puppets to western business interests but they will do their best to restore the region to the 15th Century in regards to women's rights. They will also make sure to erase what is left of Christianity in their regions.

[Juliette]

http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/20 ... d-culture/

The bishop told Amadou he would not be allowed to attend EFY unless the braids were cut.

Amadou comes from Mali. His family settled here a few years ago and became members of the Church.
Wearing cornrows and braids is a common hairstyle among African men. It has existed for centuries and the patterns used to identify ethnicities as well as social status. Today, for many boys and men of African descent outside of Africa, it is still a form of ethnic affirmation and cultural belonging.

The bishop claims to have no choice but to enforce the EFY guidelines: “no ponytails, pigtails, braids, designs, carvings (including Mohawks) or completely shaved heads.” Also, allowing one boy with braids could create tensions as other participants did change their hairstyle to conform to the norms. Amadou could also be sent back, right at registration, and be obliged to travel the 100 miles back home.

Amadou struggles over his braids and his identity. He may decide not to go to EFY. And, as we have seen with other youth in similar cases, he may not remain active in the Church.

Many have suffered much more than that for this Church. Come on!

[reese]

We rarely have a priest to bless the sacrament in our ward. There are some that come and sit in the congregation with their families, but they are not allowed to bless the sacrament. Our bishop made it very clear that they would not be allowed to bless or pass the sacrament unless they were wearing a white shirt and tie, not a colored or patterned shirt. The bishop made it very clear that he was the boss, and they would conform or loose the privilge of blessing and passing. Being teenagers they said fine we won't bless it. Several stopped coming all together, and few still come. Sometimes they wear a white shirt and are asked to bless, sometimes they wear a stripped or pastel shirt and have to sit with their parents.

One struggled a lot because he went down to New Mexico around the time this happened. He attended church on and Indian reservation. The men blessing and passing the sacrament in that ward all wore colorful, stripped shirts and Levis. He attended during a fast & testimony meeting and said he had never felt the spirit in church like that before. Lots of mixed messages he is still working through.

Some how I don't think this is what the Lord meant when he said we would have to give up and sacrifice for him. I mean what if he had restored his church in Africa somewhere. In a place that the women and men were topless all the time. What if we heard the missionaries and joined. What if we couldn't participate if we did not conform to the current dress standard? This reminds me of something I read recently.

A week ago I met a man who is a Pueblo Indian who was recently adopted into the Hopi tribe. He spoke to a few of my friends about the Hopi Indians and about their culture and sacred ceremonies. According to this man, once a Hopi is baptized a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, they are “advised” to no longer participate in their Native American sacred dances and ceremonies. He went so far as to say that if they do continue to participate that they would be excommunicated.

On the otherhand, the LDS Church owns and operates what the Polynesian Cultural Center where other cultural tribal dances and ceremonies are performed from the Pacific Islands. Some of these dances derive from ritual and ceremonial war dances and some are sensual dances. It is not cheap to experience and watch. General Admission for the day is 49.95 with some packages as much as 228.95.

[MelissaM]

Well if you let him wear that style you would have to say this guy's style is kosher as well:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/39631091@N03/5700023612/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I laughed so hard at your comment when I saw that photo!

[Juliette]

We rarely have a priest to bless the sacrament in our ward. There are some that come and sit in the congregation with their families, but they are not allowed to bless the sacrament. Our bishop made it very clear that they would not be allowed to bless or pass the sacrament unless they were wearing a white shirt and tie, not a colored or patterned shirt. The bishop made it very clear that he was the boss, and they would conform or loose the privilge of blessing and passing. Being teenagers they said fine we won't bless it. Several stopped coming all together, and few still come. Sometimes they wear a white shirt and are asked to bless, sometimes they wear a stripped or pastel shirt and have to sit with their parents.

One struggled a lot because he went down to New Mexico around the time this happened. He attended church on and Indian reservation. The men blessing and passing the sacrament in that ward all wore colorful, stripped shirts and Levis. He attended during a fast & testimony meeting and said he had never felt the spirit in church like that before. Lots of mixed messages he is still working through.

Some how I don't think this is what the Lord meant when he said we would have to give up and sacrifice for him. I mean what if he had restored his church in Africa somewhere. In a place that the women and men were topless all the time. What if we heard the missionaries and joined. What if we couldn't participate if we did not conform to the current dress standard? This reminds me of something I read recently.

A week ago I met a man who is a Pueblo Indian who was recently adopted into the Hopi tribe. He spoke to a few of my friends about the Hopi Indians and about their culture and sacred ceremonies. According to this man, once a Hopi is baptized a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, they are “advised” to no longer participate in their Native American sacred dances and ceremonies. He went so far as to say that if they do continue to participate that they would be excommunicated.

On the otherhand, the LDS Church owns and operates what the Polynesian Cultural Center where other cultural tribal dances and ceremonies are performed from the Pacific Islands. Some of these dances derive from ritual and ceremonial war dances and some are sensual dances. It is not cheap to experience and watch. General Admission for the day is 49.95 with some packages as much as 228.95.

That would be the day my son rebelled about wearing a white shirt. If I hadn't taught him better than that, shame on me.
My son served a mission. Mission rules are intense. My son also went to BYU Idaho after his mission. More rules!
My favorite saying to my children was " Measure Up"!

[MrScience]

A contemporary of mine in our ward always quoted and lived by "Obedience is better than sacrifice". I am not that much of an 'iron rodder' and didn't follow suit sometimes questioning his rigid ways. At this point in life he has been a mission president and served another mission, as well as being in a temple presidency. His children have seen some challenges but have done very well. Go figure.....by their fruits. If we as a family had lived more by the obedience thing!! Oh well, we do have some good fruits.

[wolfman]

That isn't church policy. This is church policy copied and pasted from handbook 2( which is why they wrote it, some people haven't bothered to read Alma 32): "Those who bless and pass the sacrament should dress modestly and be well groomed and clean. Clothing or jewelry should not call attention to itself or distract members during the sacrament. Ties and white shirts are recommended because they add to the dignity of the ordinance. However, they should not be required as a mandatory prerequisite for a priesthood holder to participate. Nor should it be required that all be alike in dress and appearance. Bishops should use discretion when giving such guidance to young men, taking into account their financial circumstances and maturity in the Church."

Pharisees; they had 'em in their day, we have 'em in ours.....just laugh or you're gonna cry!

[linj2fly]

nice find, wolf man! Thanks!

[wolfman]

We got a lecture once on how the temple recommend interview is part of the "temple process" and you need to dress appropriately when coming in for a temple recommend interview. I was embarrassed for the guy in the back of the chapel wearing jeans and a T-shirt so I made a point to go up to him and welcome him after sacrament meeting. I was wearing a plaid shirt that Sunday and he said to me: "It looks like this is your first Sunday here too." I said "No, I come every Sunday " He said he was from Canada and someone had recommended that he should check out our church......Never saw him again....

The best ward I've ever visited was the Moab first ward. The spirit was strong. The Bishop had a big giant mustache and you could feel his love along with all the other members of the congregation. It was fast and testimony meeting and several people had forgotten their Sunday clothes because they were on vacation in Moab. They were apologizing at the pulpit for their attire and finally a regular of the ward stood up and said "we don't care what you look like we're just glad you're here!" I loved that ward.

[marc]

We got a lecture once on how the temple recommend interview is part of the "temple process" and you need to dress appropriately when coming in for a temple recommend interview. I was embarrassed for the guy in the back of the chapel wearing jeans and a T-shirt so I made a point to go up to him and welcome him after sacrament meeting. I was wearing a plaid shirt that Sunday and he said to me: "It looks like this is your first Sunday here too." I said "No, I come every Sunday " He said he was from Canada and someone had recommended that he should check out our church......Never saw him again....

The best ward I've ever visited was the Moab first ward. The spirit was strong. The Bishop had a big giant mustache and you could feel his love along with all the other members of the congregation. It was fast and testimony meeting and several people had forgotten their Sunday clothes because they were on vacation in Moab. They were apologizing at the pulpit for their attire and finally a regular of the ward stood up and said "we don't care what you look like we're just glad you're here!" I loved that ward.

:ymapplause:

[karend77]

The church has a right to impose

So what? Many people have rights to impose many different things, that doesn't mean that it is a good idea.

What part of absolute, culture-blind mandate equates with gentle persuasion? I'm offended by your statement here.

So are you offended by the questions/standards that you need to answer in order to maintain a temple recommend? Are you offended if they dont give you one because they have certain standards you need to abide by?

[BroJones]

That isn't church policy. This is church policy copied and pasted from handbook 2( which is why they wrote it, some people haven't bothered to read Alma 32): "Those who bless and pass the sacrament should dress modestly and be well groomed and clean. Clothing or jewelry should not call attention to itself or distract members during the sacrament. Ties and white shirts are recommended because they add to the dignity of the ordinance. However, they should not be required as a mandatory prerequisite for a priesthood holder to participate. Nor should it be required that all be alike in dress and appearance. Bishops should use discretion when giving such guidance to young men, taking into account their financial circumstances and maturity in the Church."

Pharisees; they had 'em in their day, we have 'em in ours....

Jesus never wore a white shirt and tie, as far as I can tell.

Jesus reportedly wore his hair long. But it was not braided AFAIK. Oh, and he wore a beard. I guess HE could not attend EFY, ironically. Jesus was a bit of an activist I'd say, speaking out against the Pharasee- leaders the way he did. Wonderful example, IMO! I'm just trying to understand and follow Him.

He also lunched with sinners. Sure ticked off the Pharisees!

[creator]

Good discussion.

I don't wear a tie to church very often these days... and i can't think of any good reason to do it.

[MelissaM]

snip
The best ward I've ever visited was the Moab first ward. The spirit was strong. The Bishop had a big giant mustache and you could feel his love along with all the other members of the congregation. It was fast and testimony meeting and several people had forgotten their Sunday clothes because they were on vacation in Moab. They were apologizing at the pulpit for their attire and finally a regular of the ward stood up and said "we don't care what you look like we're just glad you're here!" I loved that ward.

I feel the same way about the Boulder Utah Ward. Same attitude. They were just so happy that we were in attendence. The Spirit there was huge and the love was palpable.

[Juliette]

Many have suffered much more than that for this Church. Come on!

= look like us or get out

No, no, no. That is not what I am saying. Having served in the Young Women's program most of my life, I learned
to understand personalities and circumstances. I was also strict with the ones who didn't obey the rules, and guess what? They liked me even more. Why? Because they weren't frustrated trying to " Kick against the pricks". Of course there was always the rebel who made the challenge. I loved them into wanting to be with us and obeying the rules.
On one particular Temple trip, one of the girls broke a very important rule. I had her parents come and get her. Hard call to make.
I waited a week and then called her. She had told me she wanted to learn to drive a stick shift transmission. I took our jeep and we spent the day together while I taught her. ( with her parents permission, of course).

We talked about the rules and she was very humble. Her family moved into a different ward but still in our Stake. Our ward was taking the Young Women to conference. Her parents came to my home and asked if we could make an exception and let her come with our ward. They told me how much fun she had with our ward because she learned to obey the rules.

I have always tried to live the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law, but we have stewardship over our children. I had stewardship over the Young Women. Obedience is an important principle of the Gospel.

"Alma 37
“Learn Wisdom in Thy Youth” ( and in thy adulthood)

[mingano]

So are you offended by the questions/standards that you need to answer in order to maintain a temple recommend?

Quote these standards you allege to exist.

Are you offended if they dont give you one because they have certain standards you need to abide by?

No, I'm offended that you rush to the LDS equivalent of Goodwin's Law - somebody disagrees with you and you accuse them of being an unworthy member. You are exactly the type of person that drives people away from the church. Do you give dirty looks to people who don't measure up to your standards on Sunday? (Don't bother answering, we both know the answer to this.)

[Juliette]

Good discussion.

I don't wear a tie to church very often these days... and i can't think of any good reason to do it.

My sons always wore ties. I told them it was respectful.