LDS Freedom Forum

Hello,

I am wondering if Darren or anyone else who has read those works by Bruce Wydner could tell me in a 'nutshell' if it talks about Jesus having children and winding up in France/Switzerland, etc

I know some of the early brethren like orson pratt talked about Jesus being married, so where supposedly did his offspring go?

anyone?

I don't know anything about Bruce Wydner, but a friend of mine put this together in regards to this subject.

From a theological standpoint, Jesus was required to marry in this life to “fulfill all righteousness.” Marriage is an essential ordinance and must be entered into in this life. But in order to “fulfill all righteousness” the Savior had to do more than just keep all the commandments and ordinances of the Gospel. He also had to keep all the covenants He made.

We must not forget that, as the God of Israel in the Old Testament, Jesus Christ, as Jehovah, made many covenants with His people. One of the covenants He made was with David. He promised David that there would always be an heir to his throne. (2 Samuel 7:16) In order to fulfill this covenant, the Lord had to continue the royal seed and could only do so by siring legitimate heirs Himself. Not to marry and not to have progeny would have violated His covenant with David. This the Lord would never do.

So what became of Jesus' children after His crucifixion and what became of His posterity? History, the prophets, and scripture provide partial answers to these questions. His descendants, along with the posterity of His siblings were, hunted, persecuted and killed from the earliest times. Even their genealogical records were destroyed in order to deny their very existence. Indeed, even before the crucifixion, according to the ecclesiastical historian, Eusebius of Caesarea, Herod burned the royal genealogies in order to promote his own specious nobility. (Eusebius, The History of the Church "From Christ to Constantine, I:7:13)

After His crucifixion, the Savior's descendants and the descendants of His siblings, known as the desposyni (ancient Greek, meaning “of the Master”), were hounded for centuries. The 2nd-century Palestinian historian Hegesippus said, “During the reign of the Roman Emperor Domitian (AD 81-96), the execution of all desposynic inheritors of the Davidic succession was ordered by Imperial decree.” (Laurence Gardner, Realm of the Ring Lords: The Myth and Magic of the Grail Quest, p. 272) After the demise of the Roman Empire, the Catholic Church continued its own persecution of the desposyni:

“Throughout the early centuries AD, various Desposyni branches were hounded by Roman dictate - first by the Roman Empire and later by the Roman Church. Eusebius confirmed that, in Imperial times, the Desposyni leaders became the heads of their sects by way of a ‘strict dynastic progression.’ But, wherever possible, they were pursued to the death - hunted down like outlaws and put to the Roman sword by Imperial command.” (Laurence Gardner, Realm of the Ring Lords: The Myth and Magic of the Grail Quest, p. 96)

“A few of the careful, however, having obtained private records of their own, either by remembering the names or by getting them in some other way from the registers, pride themselves on preserving the memory of their noble extraction. Among these are those already mentioned, called Desposyni, on account of their connection with the family of the Saviour. Coming from Nazara and Cochaba, villages of Judea, into other parts of the world, they drew the aforesaid genealogy from memory and from the book of daily records as faithfully as possible.” (Eusebius, The History of the Church "From Christ to Constantine, I:7:14)

“He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David.” (Luke 1:32)

In spite of the efforts of both church and state throughout the centuries, the bloodline of Christ persists. The Lord promised David that his house and kingdom would “be established forever before thee” and that his throne would also “be established forever.” (2 Samuel 7:16) The Lord confirmed this promise to David's heir, Solomon: “There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.” (1 Kings 9:5) Solomon, in his dedicatory prayer for the temple beseeched the Lord to keep His promise: “There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel.” (2 Chronicles 6:16. See also 2 Chronicles 7:18.)

Later prophets also prophesied that there would always be a rightful heir to David's throne. Jeremiah, for example, recorded the “word of the Lord” as he received in the “court of the prison”: “For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel.” (Jeremiah 33:17) Isaiah, for example, in his famous prophecy of the coming of the Messiah declared: “Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever.” (Isaiah 9:7) This is a significant prophecy. Isaiah states plainly that the “kingdom” of the Messiah and the “throne of David” are the same. It is precisely through the bloodline of Jesus Christ that David's heirs would be “established forever.”

Modern prophecy also confirms the continued persistence of the lineage of David and, by extension, the lineage of the Savior. In the dedicatory prayer of the Kirtland Temple, a prayer, which was received by revelation, Joseph asked the Lord to have “mercy on the children of Jacob” that "the yoke of bondage may begin to be broken off from the house of David.” (D&C 109:62-63) At the time of this dedication, the house of David was still extant, though under a yoke of bondage.

More to follow…

Though Joseph may have not realized it at the time of the dedication of the Kirtland temple, he soon came to know that he and others of the early brethren of the Church were descendants of the Savior, including himself. It was his lineal tie to the Savior that qualified him as the instrument of the restoration of the Gospel. But Joseph was not the only lineal descendant of Christ. Others of the early brethren were also born from that sacred stock. Joseph Smith claimed that the Apostle George J. Adams (called “Judge,” because he was a Supreme Court Judge at one time, was a descendant of Jesus Christ.

President George Q. Cannon and President Snow confirmed that statement: “Joseph Smith being the first to reveal this truth, when he informed the plural wife of Elder Judge Adams, that the Apostle ‘was a literal descendant of Jesus Christ.’” (Oliver B. Huntington Journal, p. 259)

Lorenzo Snow, and his counselor George Q. Cannon, would also declare this truth more publicly: “President George Q. Cannon also spoke ... Among the other things, he said, ‘There are those in this audience who are descendants of the old Twelve Apostles - and shall I say it, yes, descendants of the Saviour Himself. His seed is represented in this body of men.’ Following Pres. Cannon, President Snow arose and said that what Bro. Cannon had stated respecting the literal descendants among this company of the old apostles and the Saviour himself is true - the Saviour's seed is represented in this body of men.” (Journal of Pres. Rudger Clawson, pp. 374-375)"

Heber C. Kimball stated that Joseph, Brigham, and others of the Twelve at the time were “near kindred” to Jesus Christ:
“Are you ever going to be prepared to see God, Jesus Christ, His angels, or comprehend His servants, unless you take a faithful and prayerful course? Did you actually know Joseph Smith? No. Do you know Brother Brigham? No. Do you know Brother Heber? No, you do not. Do you know the Twelve? You do not; if you did, you would begin to know God, and learn that those men who are chosen to direct and counsel you are near kindred to God and Jesus Christ, for the keys, power, and authority of the kingdom of God are in that lineage.” (Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, 4:248)

Orson Whitney echoed Heber's claim to sharing the bloodline of the Savior: “There was divine harmony in all this. In Heber, his character, manner and methods - we say it reverently--there was much of the Christ; the might of the lion, with the meekness of the lamb. His, also, was the Saviour's lineage; in his heart a kindred spirit, in his veins the selfsame blood. Where causes are similar, should there not spring similar results?” (Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball, p. 185)

Orson Hyde hinted that those who did not share the sacred bloodline of Christ, were horrified at the thought: “How much so ever of holy horror this doctrine may excite in persons not impregnated with the blood of Christ, and whose minds are consequently dark and benighted, it may excite still more when they are told that if none of the natural blood of Christ flows in their veins, they are not the chosen or elect of God. Object not, therefore, too strongly against the marriage of Christ, but remember that in the last days, secret and hidden things must come to light, and that your life also (which is in the blood) is hid with Christ in God.” (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, 4:260)

May I suggest to look towards Glastonbury, England?

Among the British Israel movement, English tradition and Vatican historians - some hold the view that the Jews drove several of the Lord's family/inner circle away in 36 AD - they tried to kill some by casting them adrift on the Mediterranean without or or sail... through divine providence they drifted to and landed at Marseillies, France - where they traveled north up the Rhone river to Switzerland, hen contied down the Rhine until they crossed the North Sea/English Channel, and created/joined a group of Israelites at Glastonbury...

Those mentioned as part of these outcasts are:
Joseph of Arimethea (whom the locals in England seemed to know as being a tin merchant)
Mary, mother of Jesus (died there in 48 AD- all the apostles are said to have met there for her funeral, and Christ then appeared there)
Mary's cousin Anna (Joseph of A.'s daughter. - she is said to have married the royal Briton line, whom which comes the house of Tudor).
Lazarus, and his sisters Mary & Martha (possibly wives of Jesus)
Mary Magdalene (possibly a wife of Jesus)
Marcella - a maid to Lazarus' sisters (a daughter of theirs & Jesus?)
Maximin - a disciple (a son?)

I do not believe this list is complete.... it is highly likely that if Joseph step-father of Jesus died before Jesus was a full adult, then Joseph of A. took his grand-nephew Jesus with him on his trips to England and elsewhere (India?) where those descendants Abraham (who left Moses during the Exodus, Troy during the Judges, Israel during David/Solomon's times, 10 Tribes after Assyria, etc.) where those people would have quite possibly have been receptive to the Messiah....it is quite possible that after the Resurrection, the Lord moved his family to a safe zone - far away from Jerusalem, Glastonbury, Cornwall, & Wales then untouched by the Romans. Christ is also said to have appeared at Glastonbury in 37 AD - and did much the same as He did for the Nephites, the Hawaiians/Polynesians, and the Scandinavians...
Glastonbury is also supposed to be the mystical isle of Avalon of King Arthur fame (a hill surrounded by a marsh in 450-500 AD).

Despite the persecution against the Christian Britons ordered by Emperor Diocletian in the late 200's AD, something of their heritage (and linage?) survived and took deep root... and surfaced when the apostles arrived in North-Western England in the late 1830's....

A couple of great books that touch on this subject are:

"Whence Came They: Israel, Britain, and the Restoration" by Vaughn E. Hansen, Ph.D. (Springville, Utah: Cedar Fort, 1993)
"The House of Israel", by E.L. Whitehead (publ. 1947) (out of print).

I have heard about the france Switzerland route. I have also heard jesus direct descendants were raised for generations in france and western Switzerland. It seems that somewhere there is a father to son line and I have heard he comes from those areas while other descendants went to england

Geneva Switzerland area comes to mind?

I forgot to pm you Brent L, sorry

still wondering about bruce wydner's works and Christ's lineage.

Cayenne, that does make sense if his seed did travel from Marseilles france up the rhine by geneva area maybe he heir was kept hidden there. Mergovian King stuff?

HeirofNumenor wrote:May I suggest to look towards Glastonbury, England?

Among the British Israel movement, English tradition and Vatican historians - some hold the view that the Jews drove several of the Lord's family/inner circle away in 36 AD - they tried to kill some by casting them adrift on the Mediterranean without or or sail... through divine providence they drifted to and landed at Marseillies, France - where they traveled north up the Rhone river to Switzerland, hen contied down the Rhine until they crossed the North Sea/English Channel, and created/joined a group of Israelites at Glastonbury...

Those mentioned as part of these outcasts are:
Joseph of Arimethea (whom the locals in England seemed to know as being a tin merchant)
Mary, mother of Jesus (died there in 48 AD- all the apostles are said to have met there for her funeral, and Christ then appeared there)
Mary's cousin Anna (Joseph of A.'s daughter. - she is said to have married the royal Briton line, whom which comes the house of Tudor).
Lazarus, and his sisters Mary & Martha (possibly wives of Jesus)
Mary Magdalene (possibly a wife of Jesus)
Marcella - a maid to Lazarus' sisters (a daughter of theirs & Jesus?)
Maximin - a disciple (a son?)

I do not believe this list is complete.... it is highly likely that if Joseph step-father of Jesus died before Jesus was a full adult, then Joseph of A. took his grand-nephew Jesus with him on his trips to England and elsewhere (India?) where those descendants Abraham (who left Moses during the Exodus, Troy during the Judges, Israel during David/Solomon's times, 10 Tribes after Assyria, etc.) where those people would have quite possibly have been receptive to the Messiah....it is quite possible that after the Resurrection, the Lord moved his family to a safe zone - far away from Jerusalem, Glastonbury, Cornwall, & Wales then untouched by the Romans. Christ is also said to have appeared at Glastonbury in 37 AD - and did much the same as He did for the Nephites, the Hawaiians/Polynesians, and the Scandinavians...
Glastonbury is also supposed to be the mystical isle of Avalon of King Arthur fame (a hill surrounded by a marsh in 450-500 AD).

Despite the persecution against the Christian Britons ordered by Emperor Diocletian in the late 200's AD, something of their heritage (and linage?) survived and took deep root... and surfaced when the apostles arrived in North-Western England in the late 1830's....

A couple of great books that touch on this subject are:

"Whence Came They: Israel, Britain, and the Restoration" by Vaughn E. Hansen, Ph.D. (Springville, Utah: Cedar Fort, 1993)
"The House of Israel", by E.L. Whitehead (publ. 1947) (out of print).

Heir: This is what I have always thought, also. I had a friend in Florida when I was living there who had made this years of study. It is what he thought, too. A side note that is interesting...when Jesus was on the cross....who did HE give his mother to? John...the same John who asked if he could tarry until the Savior came again...and this wish was granted. How sweet that the Savior would entrust John with His mother's care but also knowing that he (John) would not suffer death and would be around to care for her.

Heir, good post as well,

There is a whole ton of history supposedly about the bloodline staying in France though. Does anyone know about that? This goes into knights templar stuff, Mergovian Kings, and I am not that familiar with a lot of it?

hmmmmm

Before I saw this topic, Bruce started talking about it to me, so somebody must have struck up a conversation with him. BrentL?

Bruce Wydner is a great source for this information as he is uniquely qualified with his study in the dozen or so languages, ancient and modern, that he works with, a multi-talanted historian who has studied words on levels that others cannot.

Bruce Wydner rejects the notion that Jesus had any children or that he was married. This is not because of the ample evidence but because he himself did not get married until he was into his 40s, having 5 children after that, and he relates his experience into that of Jesus having a similar focus on his calling in life, that would have kept him unavailable for marriage.

I on the other hand, I have dug into Bruce Wydner's research and I clearly see evidence of Jesus' marriage and children, I have found at least 3 Nordic names that I believe belong to his children, as well as the Nordic names for one of his wives and the Nordic name for his mother. As just about every scholar knows the name Mary did not exist at the time of Jesus, nor did the name Jesus exist for that matter, Jesus is a Greek alteration of the Hebrew name for that which we in English use "Joshua."

Now I may have some things wrong but here it goes...

Jesus' oldest son is named Yngvi-Freyr, shortened to sound like “Ing,” Yng became one of the first Patriarch/Kings of the Swedish people, and Yng is where we get Eng for the English People. The Queen of England claims to be a decedent of Yng. Joseph Smith, Jr. is also a decedent of Yng. Yng was raised by his uncle "Njord," Jesus' brother-in-law and king in the "North," in an Israelite settlement on the north shore of the Black Sea, with the Israelite people who called themselves the Wayne People.

According to the Icelandic Sagas, when Jesus brought most of the Church in Jerusalem up to the north shore of the Black Sea where the Don River connects, Njord and Freyr were living with the people there, he took Njord and Freyr, changed Freyr’s name to Yng and put them into the 12 apostles of the Church.

Yng’s father is Jesus Christ, his foster father is Njord. Yng’s grandmother is Frigg, in Jerusalem Frigg’s name was the Hebrew for Miriam and Yng’s mother, and a wife of Jesus Christ is Freya, Both of these women were named the same in Jerusalem, the Nordics made some distinction, but it is from the name of Jesus Christ’s mother that we get the English word Free.

The “Holy Grail” are the decedents of Jesus Christ through Yng, who are the Patriarchal bloodline and kings of Sweden.

The Books that Bruce Wydner has authored contain all this information.

God Bless,
Darren

ok..yes he had kids, and most of Englands "attitude" of "blue bloods" is because of this?

sbsion wrote:ok..yes he had kids, and most of Englands "attitude" of "blue bloods" is because of this?

The patriarchal way to run the Church, beginning with Adam, is by the oldest, righteous son. When Jesus was on the earth he was the Patriarch and President of the Church - King and Chief High Judge. After Jesus had the Church move to be among the lost tribes of Israel, his oldest righteous son became the next Patriarch/King. President/Chief High Judge is another matter, and may or may not be the same person at the same time.

Today in the Church we have the President/Chief High Judge of the Church, President Monson, and the Patriarch/King is Eldred G. Smith, we used to sustain Patriarch Smith in General Conference as one of the General Church Leaders, equal in authority, as we sustained Patriarch Smith with all the apostles as "Prophets, Seers and Revelators." Eldred G. Smith is literally the Oldest, Righteous Son of Jesus Christ's Blood Line.

In Europe, all of those bloodline sons of Jesus have been trying to claim the Kingship, but they forget that it is the Lord who decides among them. The throne of England has a bloodline pedigree, as does Joseph Smith, Sr., but all of Europe's kingly authority currently belongs to Eldred as he is the chosen king of the world under Christ.

God Bless,
Darren

well said, and the King line of England CLAIMS direct lineage to Christ (see"British Israelites")

sbsion wrote:well said, and the King line of England CLAIMS direct lineage to Christ (see"British Israelites")

That is a big part of the message of the Icelandic Sagas. How the patriarchal authority came from the Mesopotamian Valley and settled in the North.

The Apostate also claims to be of the bloodline of King David, as the Orthodoxy version of ownership of the Earth. The right to rule the inhabitants of the earth is what they are vying for.

God Bless,
Darren

Stella Solaris wrote: From a theological standpoint, Jesus was required to marry in this life to “fulfill all righteousness.” Marriage is an essential ordinance and must be entered into in this life.

I don't believe that is true. We do not have to marry in this life to achieve Exaltation, though we do have to eventually marry in the Millennium. There are many righteous people who never marry in this life for whatever reason, especially women, but even some men.

But I do believe that Christ was married, to one wife, Mary M, who was the very 1st person he appeared to and comforted after his death, which is just what a perfect husband would do if the wife is righteous enough to have him appear to her, which apparently she was.

I know of many people who's deceased spouse has returned and visited them many times for comfort.

I also believe he had children and that the Apostle John took care of Mary and Christ's mother after Christ died.

Darren wrote:

sbsion wrote:well said, and the King line of England CLAIMS direct lineage to Christ (see"British Israelites")

That is a big part of the message of the Icelandic Sagas. How the patriarchal authority came from the Mesopotamian Valley and settled in the North.
The Apostate also claims to be of the bloodline of King David, as the Orthodoxy version of ownership of the Earth. The right to rule the inhabitants of the earth is what they are vying for.
God Bless,
Darren

AND, of course, using David for their right, and Abraham, "political Israel" claims their NWO right to rule everyone..........the "anti-Christ"?

after some more research it appears that Jesus the Christ's first born son did go with Joseph of Arimathea to England,but he bore no children. The second son stayed in France with Mary Magdalene. This explains a ton about France, and all the Holy Grail stuff, Merovingian kings, etc. Like Jacob split his family when Esau came for protection, it makes sense that Christ's literal seed would split so they were not all found in one place.

In other words Jesus appears to have had sons and daughters, but the direct line is coming out of france area, not England.

D&C 113, Isaiah and other places make it clear to me that Christ does have a future direct heir coming to rule the church (Avraham Gileadi books are great by the way) and I believe his lineage is from the france Area, not England at least on his Father's side.

But, I am new with all this, all I know is my prayers keep coming back France over and over and over. of course I do not want to spend to much time on this since there are more pressing issues me thinks

oh, also I meant Christ's heir through Judah (political rule) while of course he will be part ephraim

105th birthday observed: Prophet and patriarch reminisce on lives of service
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What the prophets preached and believed about Jesus Christ:

Jedediah M. Grant, Second Counselor to Brigham Young the Second Prophet of the Church:

"Celsus was a heathen philosopher; and what does he say upon the subject of Christ and his Apostles, and their belief? He says, the 'grand reason why the Gentiles and philosophers of his school persecuted Jesus Christ, was because He had so many wives; there were Elizabeth, and Mary, and a host of others that followed Him.' After Jesus went from the stage of action, the Apostles followed the example of their master. . . The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, casing his crucifixion, was evidently based on polygamy,. . .a belief in the doctrine of plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus, and his followers. We might almost think they were 'Mormons' " (Journal of Discourses, Vol 1. ppl 345-346)

Apostle Orson Hyde made these statements:
"It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; . . .no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha, and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the least of it."
"I will venture to say that if Jesus Christ were now to pass thought the most pious countries in Christendom with a train of women, such as used to follow him, . . .he would be mobbed, tarred, and feathered, and rode, not on as @#$, but on a rail."

"At this doctrine the long-faced hypocrite and the sanctimonious bigot will probably cry, blasphemy! . . . Object not, therefore, too strongly against the marriage of Christ." (All the above statements: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 259-260)

"When Mary of old came to the sepulcher. . .she saw two angels in white. and they said unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She said unto them, Because they have take away my Lord,OR HUSBAND, and I know not where they have laid him." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, page 210)

In 1853 the following appeared in the Millennial Star:
". . .we apprehend that even greater troubles than these may arise before mankind learn all the particulars of Christ's incarnation-how and by whom he was begotten; the character of the relationships formed by the act; the number of wives and children he had. . ." (The Millennial Star, Vol 15, page 825)

Statement by Brigham Young, second prophet of the church:
"The Scripture says that He, the Lord, came walking in the Temple, with "HIS TRAIN; I do not know who they were, unless his wives and children;" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13. page 309)

Apostle Orson Pratt:
"...it will be seen that the GREAT MESSIAH who was the founder of the Christian religion, WAS A POLYGAMIST, . . .the MESSIAH chose. . .by marrying honorable wives himself, show to all future generations that HE approbated the plurality of wives under the Christian dispensation, as well as under the dispensation in which His polygamist ancestors lived. . . .We have now clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives. . ." (The Seer, page 172)

I have enjoyed this conversation. Once while discussing this subject with one of my great teachers, I was warned that many members of the church have a difficult time with the subject of Christ being married and especially having descendants, and it wouldn't be a good idea to mention the subject in a church class setting or as a speaker. Although, that same teacher stood in front of a stake High Priests meeting and expounded on 1 Nephi 11 and the subject line "after the manner of the flesh." I was a Stake Seventy then and and nobody paid me any attention when I walked in and sit down with the High Priests.

What a glorious meeting, and especially the discussions that followed with my friend. His final explanation; What Nephi observed and heard is scripture. A lot of secular history is speculative. Except for where modern prophets have expounded on the subject we should be very careful of the secular history, interested, but careful!

Thank you

Bob