My Fast Today...

[mes5464]

My fast today was for revelation on how to separate/disconnect/flee from Babylon?
How can I be in Babylon but not of Babylon?

I want to separate from the Babylon economy.
Stop paying taxes that a being used to fund criminal behavior.
I want to live debt free.
I want my job without having to conform to all of the rules that deprive me of my agency.


Is any of this even possible?

[marc]

25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Cæsar the things which be Cæsar’s, and unto God the things which be God’s.

Keep your eye single to the glory of God. Consecrate your time, talent and energy to Zion (Matt 25).

Just some initial thoughts.

[HeirofNumenor]

My fast today was for revelation on how to separate/disconnect/flee from Babylon?
How can I be in Babylon but not of Babylon?

I want to separate from the Babylon economy.
Stop paying taxes that a being used to fund criminal behavior.
I want to live debt free.
I want my job without having to conform to all of the rules that deprive me of my agency.


Is any of this even possible?

I think the only one reasonably doable is living in Babylon, yet not being a part of Babylon...and that is only possible so much as you run your home, family, entertainment/dress/media, etc... and honor your covenants/live Gospel.... and of course you have to have spouse & children fully on board as well...

You can reduce/limit consumer debts.... but good luck on the full extent of these wants in today's society/economic system which is teetering on the brink anyway...

[mes5464]

25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Cæsar the things which be Cæsar’s, and unto God the things which be God’s.

Keep your eye single to the glory of God. Consecrate your time, talent and energy to Zion (Matt 25).

Just some initial thoughts.

If the currency I use doesn't have Caesar's face on it is it Caesar's?

I do not agree with the idea that you MUST pay taxes, even when they are being used to commit crimes, because Jesus said you must.

I think there has to be a way to abstain from participating in sin.

[jonesde]

25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Cæsar the things which be Cæsar’s, and unto God the things which be God’s.

Keep your eye single to the glory of God. Consecrate your time, talent and energy to Zion (Matt 25).

Just some initial thoughts.

If the currency I use doesn't have Caesar's face on it is it Caesar's?

I do not agree with the idea that you MUST pay taxes, even when they are being used to commit crimes, because Jesus said you must.

I think there has to be a way to abstain from participating in sin.

I don't know how people think that verse is some sort of a commandment to pay taxes. It can just as well mean that we should not use government money, or in other words that we should not use coins with Caesar or any other government figure stamped on them.

Consider the context and remember that Christ did not pull a coin from his pocket or tell the disciples that they should go and work in order to pay the tax, he performed a miracle and got the coin with very little effort. He was not encouraging them to participate in the Roman economic system. He was encouraging them to not use the Roman money and to avoid participating in that system.

On the other hand, if you want a temple recommend in the church as things stand, then you must pay taxes. The reason for this is probably that the church could not survive if it in any way encouraged or allowed such a rebellion among its members. When it comes right down to it governments do not care what else you do as long as you pay taxes. Other activities of government are simply public relations efforts to justify taxation, which is what funds the state and makes people wealthy who are involved with it.

Reducing your income and living a more basic and simple lifestyle is one way to avoid taxes, but sort of like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Of course, if you try to earn an income or otherwise make your way in the world without using the US dollar for currency and you will probably be living a much more basic and simple lifestyle no matter what you do.

This is not easy stuff to get around. With the new anti-money laundering laws from a few years ago that extended from the USA PATRIOT act it is nearly impossible to interact with any financial institution or money services business without it being tracked, which basically means they have information that identifies you and it is reported to the IRS, or actually more directly to FINCEN.

[marc]

I'm not necessarily implying that my post is all about paying taxes. However, roads do need maintenance, bridges need rebuilding, traffic lights need repairing, etc.

[jonesde]

I'm not necessarily implying that my post is all about paying taxes. However, roads do need maintenance, bridges need rebuilding, traffic lights need repairing, etc.

Is there demand for roads, bridges, and traffic lights? If so, do you think people can figure out any other way to fund these things than taxes?

Also, how good a job does government do managing roads? Does the investment go primarily where the demand (traffic) is greatest? How efficient is the spending on roads?

That said, nation-wide spending on roads is about $160 billion (including state/local/federal) out of around $6.7 trillion in government spending. That's around 2.4% of overall govt spending. What about the other 97.6%? How much more efficient roads could be if better managed?

But yes, if govt stuck to cops, courts and roads... people in general would be far more supportive of it, and chances are MES wouldn't even be asking this question (especially if the cops and courts were limited to crimes with a victim).

[tmac]

I want to separate from the Babylon economy.
Stop paying taxes that a being used to fund criminal behavior.
I want to live debt free.
I want my job without having to conform to all of the rules that deprive me of my agency.

Despite our very best intentions and philosophical objectives, it still pays to be realistic . . . . So, one step at a time. If you or anyone else try to eat the whole elephant in one bite, well, you know what happens. By the yard it's hard, by the inch, it's a cinch. So keep your list, and work on it by focusing on one thing at a time. Fast, pray and work real hard on that one thing, with the others more in the background. When you get to the point that you can check the first one off, move to the next, and so on. The problem is that it's one thing to change ourselves -- which is entirely up to us -- but changing things that are completely beyond our control is much more challenging.

[jonesde]

I want to separate from the Babylon economy.
Stop paying taxes that a being used to fund criminal behavior.
I want to live debt free.
I want my job without having to conform to all of the rules that deprive me of my agency.

Despite our very best intentions and philosophical objectives, it still pays to be realistic . . . . So, one step at a time. If you or anyone else try to eat the whole elephant in one bite, well, you know what happens. By the yard it's hard, by the inch, it's a cinch. So keep your list, and work on it by focusing on one thing at a time. Fast, pray and work real hard on that one thing, with the others more in the background. When you get to the point that you can check the first one off, move to the next, and so on. The problem is that it's one thing to change ourselves -- which is entirely up to us -- but changing things that are completely beyond our control is much more challenging.

This is a good point, taking things a bit at a time is the only way to go unless you just happened to be miraculously positioned to go all the way in a single hop once you've figured out that it's a good idea and what that hop should be.

It's amazing how simple things like getting out of debt can decrease dependence on the system as well as reduce income requirements and therefore tax liability and so on.

It would be great to get an underground economy going... or rather an honest and otherwise non-criminal underground economy. There are actually many different underground economies that already exist, but they are mostly limited to facilitating criminal activity, and most of them also interface with the "legitimate" economy through banks and government institutions through officials who are complicit. If you're not associated with one side or the other it can be pretty dangerous to get involved with such folks.

Working within our current economy seems to be the only way to go right now. Actually, maybe not necessarily. I've heard that in New Hampshire they have enough liberty-oriented people in the state to have a fair level of economic activity done with silver and trade of other goods and services that avoids the banking system and the control associated with them. This could certainly be possible in other places if enough interested people were close enough to trade. Over wider distances it could be done with BitCoin or something similar, but moving the goods also becomes difficult... and only certain services are possible that way. The recent PorcFest event in New Hampshire had tons of this going on, with dozens of unlicensed vendors of food and all sorts of other things, almost none of them paying sales tax for transactions there.

But anyway, it seems like the best way to become independent of Babylon economically is to minimize one's cost of living, without becoming dependent on welfare. The less expensively one can live the less one needs over all. Debt is an obvious one for this. A humble off-grid living structure that doesn't need heating or cooling would be another HUGE step in this direction. Imagine if you had no mortgage, and no monthly utility payments. If you live on a "farm" you can also nearly eliminate property taxes. Just imagine your main budget items being food and transportation... that would be an enormous improvement for most people... I know it would be for me! And if your car is also within what you can afford so you don't have a loan on it, then it's really just gas/maintenance and food to fund your basic necessities. Add some basic internet access to help keep yourself mentally stimulated and your kids better educated, and it wouldn't be a bad life.

In other words, there are things you can do bit by bit to reduce your monthly expenses. At a certain point some dramatic steps like a house that is affordable and designed for passive heating and cooling are necessary, but those would also dramatically reduce your cost of living and with it your dependence on the grid and the economic and political systems that go with it.

This is what I've identified as my main personal goal right now. Personally I still have a long way to go, and a LOT that I can potentially eliminate from my monthly budget. In the last few years with income getting tougher I've already cut it in about half. Unfortunately I have a couple of "assets" that are worth less than I owe on them, other debt, and a couple of assets I want to keep unless things get really desperate (like a tractor and a survivable but not fancy or comfortable off-grid place I've been working on), so it's going to take a while to get things optimally minimized. I've been tempted to default on a some loans left over from past situations that have turned sour... obligations that I'm just stuck with. Those would be especially nice to be free from, and I suppose very slowly I'm making progress on that.

Which brings me back to tmac's point of taking it a bit at a time... which is tough to do for sure. It seems like it takes twice as prudence to recover from past imprudence, on top of the dramatic levels it sometimes takes to handle past misfortune... and that on top of the work required to get in a better position to live on less in the future (less resources, less work, less money).

Anyway, best wishes on your effort mes. I'd love to hear what sort of direction or short term goals you've decided on to move in this direction.

[sixth seal]

My fast today was for revelation on how to separate/disconnect/flee from Babylon?
How can I be in Babylon but not of Babylon?

I want to separate from the Babylon economy.
Stop paying taxes that a being used to fund criminal behavior.
I want to live debt free.
I want my job without having to conform to all of the rules that deprive me of my agency.


Is any of this even possible?

No.

[mes5464]

How can I use the The Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) to accomplish at least some of these things?