Criticism-READ IT!

[chase]

Pointing a finger in accusation is very different than warning someone of danger in their path. I truly believe that if we are still accusing people even people who have done great wrongs to us, we will not be given mercy. To receive mercy, I believe we must be willing to lay down everything and allow the Lord to take care of it.

Which is, I believe, what people who point out oddities in the way the church is run (which is different than criticism), would say to those who accuse them of being critical of church leaders. If we are running toward the edge of a cliff as a membership, should we as members of the church stand by and let it happen?

[Jason]

Pointing a finger in accusation is very different than warning someone of danger in their path. I truly believe that if we are still accusing people even people who have done great wrongs to us, we will not be given mercy. To receive mercy, I believe we must be willing to lay down everything and allow the Lord to take care of it.

Which is, I believe, what people who point out oddities in the way the church is run (which is different than criticism), would say to those who accuse them of being critical of church leaders. If we are running toward the edge of a cliff as a membership, should we as members of the church stand by and let it happen?

Are the leaders leading the charge over the edge of the cliff....or is it a membership that isn't heading their direction to just stop it and turn around?

[chase]

Pointing a finger in accusation is very different than warning someone of danger in their path. I truly believe that if we are still accusing people even people who have done great wrongs to us, we will not be given mercy. To receive mercy, I believe we must be willing to lay down everything and allow the Lord to take care of it.

Which is, I believe, what people who point out oddities in the way the church is run (which is different than criticism), would say to those who accuse them of being critical of church leaders. If we are running toward the edge of a cliff as a membership, should we as members of the church stand by and let it happen?

Are the leaders leading the charge over the edge of the cliff....or is it a membership that isn't heading their direction to just stop it and turn around?

There are some on here who criticize leaders. I try not to. Others point out the flaws of members, of whom the leadership is a part. I sometimes wish someone would tell the membership they are headed for a cliff rather than pat them on the back and tell them they're doing swell. I don't have a problem with the brethren. They serve their purpose. However, I didn't ever know I was doing a swan dive for hell until I dug into my scriptures and the words of JS. I'm sure there a others who are oblivious and could use a slap in the face.

[mingano]

Others point out the flaws of members, of whom the leadership is a part.

The general leadership is above the members: they are closer to God and are the only people who have the right to say if all is well in Zion or not. They say that God is at the helm, that their actions are all good and just and proper. Per the talk quoted above this is God's pure and simple truth and must be accepted.

[Silas]

Others point out the flaws of members, of whom the leadership is a part.

The general leadership is above the members: they are closer to God and are the only people who have the right to say if all is well in Zion or not. They say that God is at the helm, that their actions are all good and just and proper. Per the talk quoted above this is God's pure and simple truth and must be accepted.

The fact that you can say something that ridiculous just shows that you didn't understand anything about the talk or what faithful members of the church believe. No one believes that the brethren are perfect and can't make mistakes. We just trust the Lord well enough to know that He is going to correct those mistakes himself. I have been given absolutely no authority over the brethren. I am going to honor my covenants and do what I know to be right. I am not going to tear down the men the Lord has called. If I were to do that I would be explicitly violating my covenants by speaking evil of the Lord's anointed. I know who's church this is and I know He is going to fix everything that is wrong with it in his own due time.

[mingano]

The fact that you can say something that ridiculous just shows that you didn't understand anything about the talk or what faithful members of the church believe.

The talk is irrelevant to my point.

No one believes that the brethren are perfect and can't make mistakes.

I never said otherwise. Yes, they make mistakes but as the talk clearly states we are commanded to overlook those mistakes and follow anyway.

We just trust the Lord well enough to know that He is going to correct those mistakes himself.

Yes, this is EXACTLY what I have been saying.

I have been given absolutely no authority over the brethren.

Again, this is EXACTLY what I am saying.

I am not going to tear down the men the Lord has called. If I were to do that I would be explicitly violating my covenants by speaking evil of the Lord's anointed. I know who's church this is and I know He is going to fix everything that is wrong with it in his own due time.

Yet again, EXACTLY what I am saying.

Aside from you pulling that weird claim out of nowhere we are in 100% complete and total agreement.

[Rob]

The general leadership is above the members: they are closer to God and are the only people who have the right to say if all is well in Zion or not. They say that God is at the helm, that their actions are all good and just and proper. Per the talk quoted above this is God's pure and simple truth and must be accepted.

They are neither "above" us nor are they closer to God. We are all children of God, as the Primary song states, and, as such, are all equidistant to Him. It's a pretty warped perspective to consider oneself less than another human being. That mindset explains why some folks champion their sheepleness.


He jumps on Silas for making a weird claim, yet he issues that. 8-|

[chase]

Others point out the flaws of members, of whom the leadership is a part.

The general leadership is above the members: they are closer to God and are the only people who have the right to say if all is well in Zion or not. They say that God is at the helm, that their actions are all good and just and proper. Per the talk quoted above this is God's pure and simple truth and must be accepted.

The prerogative to say "all is well in Zion" is given to no man. The scriptures say "Wo" unto those who say that. There is no provision for anyone to say it, leader or not. The actions of the leaders are not "good and just and proper" unless they do good and just and proper works. Any member can do that, not just leaders. As for leaders being "above" members...I'm sure they would not want to be classified that way. To do so would be to set them up in opposition to the scriptures which declare that leaders ought to work among and with members. King Benjamin didn't think himself above any other man. If they are "above" the members, they are in a terrible position because "all high things will be made low." The pure and simple truth of God that we must accept is the fact that all men are equal and that God is no respecter of persons, in spite of positions and authorities.

[drjme]

some people need to learn the difference between 'questioning/disagreeing' and 'criticizing/faultfinding'. the difference is huge, and when you learn the difference you wont be offended when someone questions or disagrees.

[Silas]

The general leadership is above the members: they are closer to God and are the only people who have the right to say if all is well in Zion or not. They say that God is at the helm, that their actions are all good and just and proper. Per the talk quoted above this is God's pure and simple truth and must be accepted.

They are neither "above" us nor are they closer to God. We are all children of God, as the Primary song states, and, as such, are all equidistant to Him. It's a pretty warped perspective to consider oneself less than another human being. That mindset explains why some folks champion their sheepleness.


He jumps on Silas for making a weird claim, yet he issues that. 8-|

I'm glad I wasn't the only person who was confused by that. The fact that the brethren are not "above" us is all the more reason why we should sustain and support them and not tear them down when they do make mistakes. They are mortal men like the rest of us but the Lord has place a heavy burden on them and when we sustain them we covenant to actually help them fulfill their calling by doing our part to build up the kingdom. Spreading criticism about them on the internet doesn't accomplish that in anyway.

[mingano]

That mindset explains why some folks champion their sheepleness.

Christ is the Shepherd. We are the sheep. The PRIMARY imagery used by Christ to describe us is that of sheep. Why isn't that good enough for you?

[Silas]

That mindset explains why some folks champion their sheepleness.

Christ is the Shepherd. We are the sheep. The PRIMARY imagery used by Christ to describe us is that of sheep. Why isn't that good enough for you?

I have always been uncomfortable with the term sheeple for that very reason.

[drjme]

That mindset explains why some folks champion their sheepleness.

Christ is the Shepherd. We are the sheep. The PRIMARY imagery used by Christ to describe us is that of sheep. Why isn't that good enough for you?

the focus in this metaphor is the role of the shepherd, not the role of the sheep. The shepherd nutures, protects and cares for the flock. sheep eat grass and get herded about. it is more a description of how he looks after us as his flock, rather than us being helpless unthinking animals.

[SpeedRacer]

I have always counseled my past girlfriends (single moms)....

Note to self: Must be careful not to assign causation to association...

This one is way more fun to draw conclusions on. Heir is saying he has loved and left a string of past girlfriends with illegitimate children, then gave them sound advice on getting welfare help.

[HeirofNumenor]

I have always counseled my past girlfriends (single moms)....

Note to self: Must be careful not to assign causation to association...

This one is way more fun to draw conclusions on. Heir is saying he has loved and left a string of past girlfriends with illegitimate children, then gave them sound advice on getting welfare help.

LOL SOOOOO wrong! :ymblushing:

[Juliette]

Wow Heiro, you stud! =))

[HeirofNumenor]

Wow Heiro, you stud! =))

lol I must have slept through them all..... i-)

[Alpine]

Wow Heiro, you stud! =))

lol I must have slept through them all..... i-)

...taking evasive maneuvers.... :p

[HeirofNumenor]

...taking evasive maneuvers.... :p

Dang tootin"!

[Dewey Olsen]

I think having open mind… one extreme or another is being blind…. Or not true to oneself or honest to oneself.




To say that the church and its people have not strayed, is not honest, or your blind whatever label we call it… B.S.

I remember Bruce R writing that even thou Most of the church leaders of Christ 1st coming were off course, If you were a humble follower of Christ or the mosaic law and wanted to off a piece offering or whatever… you needed to recognize the current church leaders.
They were the lord annoted, until they were set in order, and replaced.

Also remember David who would not speak evil of the lords anotied even thou the Lords annoted had lost their way and was going to kill David.

How would you like to be the new David who is a humble follower of Christ, but the time to set in order the church is years away.


I wish more LDS would look at Isaiah accent to heaven…. Isaiah vision of the end of the world…..

ASK these questions… Here is what Isaiah saw… on the DAY OF THE LORD…. Right before… Christs hidden, 2nd coming….
22. And there will be much contention on the eve of [His advent and] His approach.
23. And in those days many will love office, though devoid of wisdom.
24. And there will be many lawless elders, and shepherds dealing wrongly by their own sheep, and they will ravage (them) owing to their not having holy shepherds.
25. And many will change the honour of the garments of the saints for the garments of the covetous, and there will be much respect of persons in those days and lovers of the honour of this world.
26. And there will be much slander and vainglory at the approach of the Lord, and the Holy Spirit will withdraw from many.
27. And there will not be in those days many prophets, nor those who speak trustworthy words, save one here and there in divers places, OK there are trustworthy prophets one the Earth… Yes… Never to be removed….
28. On account of the spirit of error and fornication and of vainglory, and of covetousness, which shall be in those, who will be called servants of that One and in those who will receive that One.
29. And there will be great hatred in the shepherds and elders towards each other.
30. For there will be great jealousy in the last days; for everyone will say what is pleasing in his own eyes.
31. And they will make of none effect the prophecy of the prophets which were before me, and these my visions also will they make of none effect, in order to speak after the impulse of their own hearts.


Why is it so hard to understand that history does repeat itself. One way you can have an Infinite sacrifice, is to always be sacrificing… Most of us live the law of sacrifice, and have raised our hands that we will.
Current church thinking you cannot comprehend Christ Infinite sacrifice…. It’s not over…. Were still sacrificing…. Most on the list can comprehend how to live the law of sacrifice and with grace they do it perfect in hell space…

We do the same thing as Christ did over and over, higher and higher, making bigger and bigger effects in people’s lives. Greater things than I did, you will do.. because I go to my father.

Along that same line of thinking…. Perfect in the Hell space means very different than Perfect in celestial space. In hell space to be perfect and perform the perfect sacrifice … Christ did the best he could, and when Christ needed help an angle came and helped him (Christ need Grace to be perfect) … that was his example…. He did not do it by himself, and with grace all of us can offer a perfect sacrifice in our spiritual level.


At the end of Isaiah vision…..
11. And I asked the angel who was with me: "How is it that they have received the garments, but have not the thrones and the crowns?"
12. And he said unto me: "Crowns and thrones of glory they do not receive, till the Beloved will descent in the form in which you will see Him descent [will descent, I say] into the world in the last days the Lord, who will be called Christ.
13. Nevertheless they see and know whose will be thrones, and whose the crowns when He has descended and been made in your form, and they will think that He is flesh and is a man.
14. And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is.


35. And thou wilt return into thy garment (of the flesh) until thy days are completed. Then thou wilt come hither."
36. These things Isaiah saw and told unto all that stood before him, and they praised. And he spake to Hezekiah the King and said: "I have spoken these things."
37. Both the end of this world;
38. And all this vision will be consummated in the last generations.



sees Christ come back to earth going through the 7 levels of glory…. (celestial 3 ) (terresital 3 levels) then us in hell space (teeletraial space). He comes hidden hiding his glory. In the vision Isaiah sees both the father, son and holy ghost as separate beings. (most of those truths have been keep back, where is those truths in our old testament)

Anyway What Honest LDS cannot look at Christ description of his church when he comes back hidden (that Isaiah sees, that you will see, if you understand a sealed book, the book of Isaiah) and not confess we do need some heavenly correction.


Who can become a seer.
See what Isaiah saw….
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... nsion.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



dEwEy

[mingano]

the focus in this metaphor is the role of the shepherd, not the role of the sheep. The shepherd nutures, protects and cares for the flock. sheep eat grass and get herded about. it is more a description of how he looks after us as his flock, rather than us being helpless unthinking animals.

Complete this scripture: "Feed my ______"

[Dewey Olsen]

Why does Jeremiah say the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people in the Last Days right before the new exdous?

Chapter 23
The remnants of Israel will be gathered in the last days—The Branch, who is the King (the Messiah), will reign in righteousness—False prophets who teach lies will be cursed.

Speak to us Jeremiah….

1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.


2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.



Jeremiah Seems to suggest that it is a feeding problem.

That sounds like what Isaiah says.


28:9
Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation?
Weanlings weaned from milk,
those just taken from the breast?
28:10
For it is but precept upon precept,
precept upon precept,
measure by measure, measure by measure;
a trifle here, a trifle there.

Although God wants to give his people “instruction” (dē â) and “revelation” (šěmû â), they are but babes and sucklings who haven’t developed enough to digest more than milk. Their mode of learning God’s word is still “precept upon precept, precept upon precept, measure by measure, measure by measure; a trifle here, a trifle there” (ṣaw lāṣāw ṣaw lāṣāw qaw lāqāw qaw lāqāw
zě îr šām zě îr šām). Assonance and alliteration parody their rote method of learning by parroting their leaders: “Everyone who uses milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe” (Hebrews 5:13).

28:11
Therefore, by incomprehensible speech
and a strange tongue
must he speak to these people,
28:12
to whom he said, This is rest; let the weary rest!
This is a respite! But they would not listen.

The lesser portion of God’s word proves insufficient to save “these people” (hā ām hazzeh)—God’s alienated people—from being slain and taken captive by their enemies (cf. vv 13, 22). The only way left for God to speak to his people that will cause them to repent is through the “incomprehensible speech” (lā ǎgê ́sāpâ) and “strange tongue” (lāšôn ᐣaḥeret) of the invading Assyrians. Assuming that the lesser law they labor under is the whole law, God’s people who have grown “weary” (āyēp) from it reject God’s “rest” (měnûḥâ) and “respite” (margē â) that embody a higher law.


There I no way I can understand a complex bible book like Isaiah! So Jeremiah says he against the pastors that feed his people in the last days. So Christ ( like mosses, a mighty and strong in his spiritual level) and his servant Righteousness a new David (like mosses, mighty and strong Servant in his Servant Son spiritual level puts back in order the Judges and leaders and gathers them in a new Exodus thru the wilderness back to Jackson, while the false prophets and judges are killed or humbled by the Mighty and Strong modern king of Assyria [Russia china and friends who’s leader is Mighty and Strong in the perdition level])

Back to Jeremiah, He suggests that the new leaders will Feed his church, and that he will be happy with the new leaders.

3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.


7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

9 Mine aheart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness.

10 For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right.


11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD.


12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their avisitation, saith the LORD.


13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.
Mordern Baal house of worsphip are in evey town with a R or X rating. Oh ya I have my own Privite Baal worsphip in my 3 TV Rooms. Humm I just don’t want to think about that… Wow God How does anyone Leave mordern Bablyon?
Back to Jeremiah…..


14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.


Wow What a Day to Live thru if I can ????D

[drjme]

the focus in this metaphor is the role of the shepherd, not the role of the sheep. The shepherd nutures, protects and cares for the flock. sheep eat grass and get herded about. it is more a description of how he looks after us as his flock, rather than us being helpless unthinking animals.

Complete this scripture: "Feed my ______"

Umm .....dogs?

no doubt that he is our shepherd and we his sheep. The focus isn't our sheepleness though. It's his role as shepherd.

[Silas]

the focus in this metaphor is the role of the shepherd, not the role of the sheep. The shepherd nutures, protects and cares for the flock. sheep eat grass and get herded about. it is more a description of how he looks after us as his flock, rather than us being helpless unthinking animals.

Complete this scripture: "Feed my ______"

Umm .....dogs?

no doubt that he is our shepherd and we his sheep. The focus isn't our sheepleness though. It's his role as shepherd.

It is a two way metaphor. We are suppose to trust implicitly in Christ as our shepherd just as sheep would in their shepherd. That is to say totally consistently and without question. As sheep of the shepherd we will follow him and do whatever he wants no matter what.
The question is not should we be sheep or not. The question is, who will we have as our shepherd?

[drjme]

It is a two way metaphor. We are suppose to trust implicitly in Christ as our shepherd just as sheep would in their shepherd. That is to say totally consistently and without question. As sheep of the shepherd we will follow him and do whatever he wants no matter what.
The question is not should we be sheep or not. The question is, who will we have as our shepherd?

agreed