LDS Freedom Forum

shadow wrote:

Nan wrote:I want my husband. I don't want anyone else. Guess I am the weird one here.

Well, you may be weird, that's true :ymsmug: .
Despite myself, I know my wife will be faithful to me while I'm still working out my own salvation, however long that takes! We've made promises before God, angels and witnesses. Sure, it may take some patience and forgiveness (charity!) but it will all work out.
What's stopping my wife from "moving up" today? Heaven knows she settled for less but she gave herself to ME! and I accepted HER! The promises were made in the Temple. I highly doubt there will be any spouse swapping in the great hereafter. It's simply contrary to the Gospel! A spouse wouldn't look to move up. He/She would have charity to the one covenants were already made to and if she/he didn't have that charity then what makes him/her special enough to be accepted by anyone else? It may just turn out that her lousy husband ends up a King after all!


Did you ever read about a frog who dreamed of being a king and then became one? -Neil diamond

Well said. All this worrying about the next life just sounds like a lack of faith in the Lord to me. We don't have all the answers here, and we don't need em. Trust in the Lord, he'll make sure things work out best for everyone involved when the time comes.

Go to the temple, do some proxy sealings, and listen carefully to the words which are spoken.

No one is ever "sealed to" anyone in a couple sealing.

gruden2.0 wrote: Just a quick question for you or anyone else who believes polygamy is wrong at any time and is not practiced in the celestial kingdom, how does that reflect in your mind on church leaders who are known to have practiced it for 50+ years? It's one thing to say it's wrong and Joseph Smith didn't do it (despite what history says), but what about all those who did? Were they in error? Will they be punished?

I believe Joseph was very clear about the answer to your question. And I believe everything that Joseph Smith testified of about polygamy and his scriptures warning against it.

I don't understand how anyone can just ignore his many strong teachings on the subject and think they can live it, no matter how many rumors or hearsay goes around about Joseph.

I personally would never live polygamy or even believe in it, even if every prophet since Joseph did, for Joseph taught us that his teachings and scriptures trumps every prophet who comes after him. I stand with Joseph's proven and published testimony.

There is no coercion or compulsion in the LDS sealing. Righteous women will have the final say whose priesthood they will claim and who they will choose to spend eternity with.

Yes, LDS men should really think hard about how they treat their wife. With the priesthood, there is nothing but the power of love that seals them together.

This is absolutely true ... except that it equally applies to women. There is no compulsion in the priesthood on either side - both spouses must treat each other well, and both will be able to choose whether to remain together or not.

shadow wrote: Despite myself, I know my wife will be faithful to me while I'm still working out my own salvation, however long that takes! We've made promises before God, angels and witnesses. Sure, it may take some patience and forgiveness (charity!) but it will all work out.
What's stopping my wife from "moving up" today? Heaven knows she settled for less but she gave herself to ME! and I accepted HER! The promises were made in the Temple. I highly doubt there will be any spouse swapping in the great hereafter. It's simply contrary to the Gospel! A spouse wouldn't look to move up. He/She would have charity to the one covenants were already made to and if she/he didn't have that charity then what makes him/her special enough to be accepted by anyone else? It may just turn out that her lousy husband ends up a King after all!

What a great post! I believe you are so right.

awake wrote:I believe Joseph was very clear about the answer to your question. And I believe everything that Joseph Smith testified of about polygamy and his scriptures warning against it.

I don't understand how anyone can just ignore his many strong teachings on the subject and think they can live it, no matter how many rumors or hearsay goes around about Joseph.

awake wrote:I stand with Joseph's proven and published testimony.

Yep.

awake wrote:

gruden2.0 wrote: Just a quick question for you or anyone else who believes polygamy is wrong at any time and is not practiced in the celestial kingdom, how does that reflect in your mind on church leaders who are known to have practiced it for 50+ years? It's one thing to say it's wrong and Joseph Smith didn't do it (despite what history says), but what about all those who did? Were they in error? Will they be punished?

I believe Joseph was very clear about the answer to your question. And I believe everything that Joseph Smith testified of about polygamy and his scriptures warning against it.

I don't understand how anyone can just ignore his many strong teachings on the subject and think they can live it, no matter how many rumors or hearsay goes around about Joseph.

I personally would never live polygamy or even believe in it, even if every prophet since Joseph did, for Joseph taught us that his teachings and scriptures trumps every prophet who comes after him. I stand with Joseph's proven and published testimony.

You didn't really answer the question, but it would seem that Joseph left the door open...

Instructions Respecting Plurality of Wives

Section Six 1843-44, p.323

In the afternoon, rode to show some of the brethren some land. Evening, at home, and walked up and down the streets with my scribe. Gave instructions to try those persons who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives; for, according to the law, I hold the keys of this power in the last days; for there is never but one on earth at a time on whom the power and its keys are conferred; and I have constantly said no man shall have but one wife at a time, unless the Lord directs otherwise. (Oct. 5, 1843.) DHC 6:46. Emphasis added.

gruden2.0 wrote: You didn't really answer the question, but it would seem that Joseph left the door open...

Instructions Respecting Plurality of Wives

Section Six 1843-44, p.323

In the afternoon, rode to show some of the brethren some land. Evening, at home, and walked up and down the streets with my scribe. Gave instructions to try those persons who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives; for, according to the law, I hold the keys of this power in the last days; for there is never but one on earth at a time on whom the power and its keys are conferred; and I have constantly said no man shall have but one wife at a time, unless the Lord directs otherwise. (Oct. 5, 1843.) DHC 6:46. Emphasis added.

Joseph didn't write or say all that. That statement was changed after Joseph's death and additional wording added that wasn't there while he was alive.

“The Prophet’s most pointed denial of plural marriage occurred on Oct. 5, 1843 in instructions pronounced publicly in the streets of Nauvoo. Willard Richards wrote in Smith’s diary that Joseph “GAVE INSTRUCTIONS TO TRY THOSE WHO WERE PREACHING, TEACHING OR PRACTICING THE DOCTRINES OF PLURALITY OF WIVES… JOSEPH FORBIDS IT & THE PRACTICE THEREOF. NO MAN SHALL HAVE BUT ONE WIFE.”

“When incorporating Smith's journal into the History of the Church, church leaders, under Brigham Young’s direction, deleted 10 key words from this significant passage & added 49 others so that it now reads: “Gave instructions to try those persons who were preaching, teaching or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives, FOR ACCORDING TO THE LAW, I HOLD THE KEYS OF THIS POWER IN THE LAST DAYS; FOR THERE IS NEVER BUT ONE ON THE EARTH AT A TIME ON WHOM THE POWER & IT’S KEYS ARE CONFERRED & I HAVE CONSTANTLY SAID, “no man shall have but one wife at a time, UNLESS THE LORD DIRECTS OTHERWISE.”

It is not commonly known that the seven volume History of the Church, which purports to have been written by Joseph Smith himself, was substantially added to & edited after the Prophet’s death. Editions of the massive work were still being tweaked by B.H. Roberts as late as 1912. The passage above had been so substantially doctored so as to completely change it’s meaning. It put words into the Prophet’s mouth that he simply had not spoken, words that in fact contradicted what he had said. This is not editing for clarification. This is prevarication, a lie; a calculated attempt to change church history."
puremormonism.blogspot.com, "Why I’m abandoning polygamy".

So what you're saying is that Brigham Young et al practiced deception and doctored the record to make it look like Joseph supported polygamy to justify their practice of it...? You've basically damned several church presidents and a slew of apostles/general authorities to hell for practicing false doctrine.

Just so we're clear. That's why I asked.

gruden2.0 wrote:So what you're saying is that Brigham Young et al practiced deception and doctored the record to make it look like Joseph supported polygamy to justify their practice of it...? You've basically damned several church presidents and a slew of apostles/general authorities to hell for practicing false doctrine.

Just so we're clear. That's why I asked.

Yeah, there are like 2 threads on the whole J.S. never practiced polygamy that I've already unsubscribed from. Hopefully we can keep this thread on topic.

I didn't introduce the subject of polygamy to this thread, but if you look at the quote of Joseph Smith above, the subject of sealing and polygamy are intertwined. Section 132 discusses both as a related subject as well (although some believe that was doctored too).

gruden2.0 wrote:I didn't introduce the subject of polygamy to this thread, but if you look at the quote of Joseph Smith above, the subject of sealing and polygamy are intertwined. Section 132 discusses both as a related subject as well (although some believe that was doctored too).

Oh I am not blaming anyone. I know 132 is tied to polygamy... I just hope we don't get into another "BY said JS said etc etc" in this one. It is no biggy.

I get the feeling that we as individuals and as couples will have way more say in the judgement and sealings and exaltation than is popularly believed. Who really judges us? Who really stops our progression? The Sealing may be done with the authority of the Priesthood, but the promise and "Staying power" of that marriage in eternity will be up to us alone. God protects agency, free will, and choice above all.

A wife who simply "endures" a marriage on earth, I think, will find that marriage free and uncluttered of the drama and emotional quagmire that this world affords. I highly highly doubt in the Spirit World and beyond, that the Wife or Husband will suddenly decide "Oh hey. I've realized I don't like this marriage, even though I got through it in one of the darkest, temptation infested, unholy and impure places in the universe".

7cylon7, in the scenario you gave, based on the descriptions of the marriage, it sounds like it was never "sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE" and so it's possible that marriage will not continue through the eternities. Truly enduring to the end would involve a celestial level marriage and all that implies - i.e. the husband and wife both working toward coming unto Christ and receving the Second Comforter, and beyond.

I don't think "enduring to the end" is just about sticking with it and having an average marriage... but true "enduring to the end" would be as I described above.

BrianM wrote:7cylon7, in the scenario you gave, based on the descriptions of the marriage, it sounds like it was never "sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE" and so it's possible that marriage will not continue through the eternities. Truly enduring to the end would involve a celestial level marriage and all that implies - i.e. the husband and wife both working toward coming unto Christ and receving the Second Comforter, and beyond.

I don't think "enduring to the end" is just about sticking with it and having an average marriage... but true "enduring to the end" would be as I described above.

If that were true than wouldn't it be probably 'all for nothing' to stay with a spouse who is unrighteous? Does the Church really want people to divorce when their spouse becomes unrighteous?

For very few unrighteous spouses ever repent in this life. So if what you say is true, would that not mean the righteous spouse would have to find someone new anyway someday, so why not sooner than later, rather than suffering with an unrighteous or unloving spouse for many many years and still not be able to be with them in eternity?

But that kind of thinking encourages divorce though, which I don't believe the prophets would do.

So I have to doubt that it requires both spouses to be righteous on this earth in order to have an eternal marriage, or else the prophets would be suggesting divorce as soon as someone's spouse becomes unrighteous and then we would probably have a 95% divorce rate in the church.

Is that really what God wants, most all children coming from broken homes?

If both spouses have to be righteous to have a marriage 'sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise', than how or why would Heavenly Father expect a righteous spouse to stay 5 minutes with an unloving and unrighteous spouse, if the chance for their repentance was very slim, as most are, and the suffering if they stayed was so great?

It just doesn't make sense to me to believe that it takes two righteous spouses to have an eternal marriage, especially with everything the prophets have said about marriage, and loving even an unrighteous spouse.

So, is this thread saying that an unrighteous spouse gets a free ride to the ck? If I marry an awesome, valiant, righteous man, I can do all manner of wickedness and, as long as he wants me in the next life, I get to go to the ck? I get to be with God in misery forever (Moroni)? Sounds fun.

A Random Phrase wrote:So, is this thread saying that an unrighteous spouse gets a free ride to the ck? If I marry an awesome, valiant, righteous man, I can do all manner of wickedness and, as long as he wants me in the next life, I get to go to the ck? I get to be with God in misery forever (Moroni)? Sounds fun.

If you get to the Celestial Kingdom, no matter how you get there, you won't be in misery, Brigham Young says that if you prove unworthy of Celestial glory yourself, then you will be very grateful to get to your righteous spouse there.

Plus, unrighteous spouse's will have to 1st completely repent and be cleansed and purified in Spirit Prison until all their unrighteous desires and tendencies are removed. Once they are righteous and pure again only then will they be released and assigned to a Kingdom of Glory.

Joseph Smith taught how we, if we are valiant in our covenants as parents, can also save our unrighteous children to the Celestial Kingdom, after they repent in Spirit Prison, and it is considered the most comforting doctine he ever taught.

Apparently valiancy and pure love have great power to save that we have yet to realize.

Awake, my post was a reference to this scripture:

4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.
(Book of Mormon | Mormon 9:4)

If I am wicked, but am in the ck because of the righteousness of my spouse, how can I be happy there? Is not the removal of my filthiness a result of me accepting the atonement? If I have not accepted it, is it not "everlastingly too late" as Alma said? How can I ever be happy under a consciousness of my own guilt? Does not Alma Junior point out that justice cannot be denied? And if my guilt can be magically done away because of the righteousness of my spouse, why bother trying to be righteous? Like Lucifer pointed out, I can be saved with no effort on my part.

Okay, my bad. I apparently didn't read the whole of your post. Yes, I can see this.

awake wrote:If you get to the Celestial Kingdom, no matter how you get there, you won't be in misery, Brigham Young says that if you prove unworthy of Celestial glory yourself, then you will be very grateful to get to your righteous spouse there.

Plus, unrighteous spouse's will have to 1st completely repent and be cleansed and purified in Spirit Prison until all their unrighteous desires and tendencies are removed. Once they are righteous and pure again only then will they be released and assigned to a Kingdom of Glory.

Joseph Smith taught how we, if we are valiant in our covenants as parents, can also save our unrighteous children to the Celestial Kingdom, after they repent in Spirit Prison, and it is considered the most comforting doctine he ever taught.

Apparently valiancy and pure love have great power to save that we have yet to realize.

A Random Phrase wrote:Okay, my bad. I apparently didn't read the whole of your post. Yes, I can see this.

Right, people won't have anymore guilt after repenting in Spirit Prison and becoming clean and pure and righteous again. Alma was just talking about unrepentant people still in Spirit Prison, who would be very uncomfortable in the CK if they didn't repent 1st.

But they will still have great remorse for all eternity if they aren't able to go to the Celestial Kingdom.

The sealing ordinance is only in effect if both spouses live up to their covenants (that they made in the House of the Lord). If one spouse is righteous and the other has gone off the deep end, (its rarely a one-sided issue) then the sealing ordinance could be broken, if the naughty spouse fails to repent.

I have wondered if "marriage" is the same in the celestial kingdom as it was on earth.

The power of the priesthood, if we are true and faithful to our covenants, then the priestood (power/authority) comes to bear and through our faithfulness we can help our children, spouses, etc. gain the blessings of exaltation, after they have repented.

gruden2.0 wrote:

awake wrote:Thus I believe the Golden Rule, which is the basis for all the laws and the Prophets, disproves polygamy.

For just like men would not want to tag along with a wife and her new husband/s for eternity, it would be just as horrible for a woman to have to do such, here or in heaven.

Just a quick question for you or anyone else who believes polygamy is wrong at any time and is not practiced in the celestial kingdom, how does that reflect in your mind on church leaders who are known to have practiced it for 50+ years? It's one thing to say it's wrong and Joseph Smith didn't do it (despite what history says), but what about all those who did? Were they in error? Will they be punished?

I can prove that Joseph Smith did in fact do it. There are affidavits to the affect that multiple women were married to JS. These are from the women themselves. Also a really cool affidavit that an angle came to JS with a sword and said if you don't follow the commandment that he would be cut down. It's all in a book that is out of print now called blood atonement and polygamy guide by the church. They collected many statements under oath about blood atonement which is a true principle not practiced just like polygamy. Once the veil is lifted from our minds after death we will see that Father had many many wives. It is as natural as breathing in the CK. Go look it up.

I found it, "Blood Atonement And The Origin Of Plural Marriage" is the book or pamphlet, my dad has a very very rare copy of the book He is making me a copy. In it are letters going back a forth from the RLDS and the LDS as the RLDS tried to prove that polygamy was never instituted by JS. However, with the letters and affidavits produced and several women testified that they were in fact married to JS before he was martyred.

So I can tell you that you are wrong. JS did practice the law even though at first he found it hard to follow, and in fact was warned by an angel that he had better follow it or sever penalties, death could be a result. when the LORD GOD gives us a commandment he expects us to follow it and its effects are immediate. You should read it. I found it very interesting and nothing was out of place when understood in the light of god.

Zowieink wrote:The sealing ordinance is only in effect if both spouses live up to their covenants (that they made in the House of the Lord). If one spouse is righteous and the other has gone off the deep end, (its rarely a one-sided issue) then the sealing ordinance could be broken, if the naughty spouse fails to repent.

I have wondered if "marriage" is the same in the celestial kingdom as it was on earth.

The power of the priesthood, if we are true and faithful to our covenants, then the priestood (power/authority) comes to bear and through our faithfulness we can help our children, spouses, etc. gain the blessings of exaltation, after they have repented.

We all understand that. The problem is that what if both lived up to their covenants but one still does not really want to be with that person for all eternity. Do you understand the question now? Both on this earth lived up to the covenants, however, one could still choose another in the CK. No one is compelled to stay with that choice made on earth. many people don't spend 20 years to find the exact perfect person to marry. Many settle for less. They live the best they can but are not having that super crazy wonderful love fest that you seem to have. They are righteous people yet maybe the other person does not light my fire so to speak. They are good but that deep down love just is not there where that person could be found after a 1000 years in the spirit world while we await the resurrection PLUSSSS what about all those years before we came to this earth? Did we not make friends and maybe even girl friends before we came down here. What if you wanted to marry someone in the spirit world but knew we would never meet on this planet. We would have to wait until after we both lived and then in the spirit world, with our memories restored we would then remember oh ya Sally is really someone I want to spend eternity with. Some of us maybe lucky enough to find that person on this earth but is it not possible the many did not? Hence, the ability to be sealed to the correct person. See the issue. You really can not know until the spirit of promise tells you. then you may feel confident in that sealing. don't get me wrong, I content that there is not such thing as the ONLY one. But I will content that some are better than others, too. And if you feel there is someone better why would you be doomed to stay with a lesser person than you really want. See the issue is not just black and white. We are feeling and loving beings and we have to understand that love must be both ways for there to be a true wonderful oneness with each other. In that true relationship there can be no greater joy.

7cylon7 wrote: The problem is that what if both lived up to their covenants but one still does not really want to be with that person for all eternity.

I don't believe it's possible that a righteous spouse would 'not' want to be with their other 'righteous' spouse for eternity.

Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith and Pres. Hinckley both taught that if we truly keep our marriage covenants and love and serve our spouse as we should, then we will stay in love and grow more and more in love with them as the years go on and we would never want to separate from them. If we lose the Spirit then that's when we fall out of love.

7cylon7 wrote: The problem is that what if both lived up to their covenants but one still does not really want to be with that person for all eternity. Do you understand the question now? Both on this earth lived up to the covenants, however, one could still choose another in the CK.

I get you- I often dream of joining Mark out on the lake with a cold beer and good cigar after I've lived the word of wisdom.
OK, I really don't dream that #:-s but how can you say you lived up to your covenants then ask for a divorce? Or is it (divorce) called something different in Heaven? Part of the covenant is the wife giving herself to the husband and the husband taking the wife. Living up to that covenant is NOT looking for someone better. Or are you under the impression that those covenants are temporary?? But then why not get married by the justice of the peace down at the court house? Of course on second thought (or third??), many LDS's, even on this site, don't think we even have the authority to do what's done in the Temples :ymsigh: