Church before Christ comes?

[nahob]

I have head from some people that before Christ comes the church will fall apart, but the gospel will not be taken again from the earth. My husband says this is not true, but the church will grow by leaps and bounds, and "be better."

What will happen to the church before Christ comes again? Will it get better or will apostasy abound?

[Juliette]

Good question. I think the latter.

[Original_Intent]

I think there will be a lot of growth in membership and also, as we are already seeing, a growth of various opinions, false doctrines and apostacies within the church. The wheat and the tares growing together.

Then the cleansing, and then probably massive growth again (minus tares).

[marc]

The church is one of the fastest growing in the US:

1. The Catholic Church 68,202,492, [ranked 1 in 2011] , down 0.44 percent.
2. Southern Baptist Convention 16,136,044, [ranked 2 in 2011] , down 0.15 percent.
3. The United Methodist Church 7,679,850, [ranked 3 in 2011] , down 1.22 percent.
4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 6,157,238, [ranked 4 in 2011] , up 1.62 percent.
5. The Church of God in Christ 5,499,875, [ranked 5 in 2011] , no update reported.
6. National Baptist Convention , U.S.A. , Inc. 5,197,512, [ranked 6 in 2011] , up 3.95 percent.
7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America 4,274,855, [ranked 7 in 2011] , down 5.90 percent.
8. National Baptist Convention of America , Inc. 3,500,000, [ranked 8 in 2011] , no update reported.
9. Assemblies of God 3,030,944, [ranked 9 in 2011] , up 3.99 percent.
10. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) 2,675,873, [ranked 10 in 2011] , down 3.42 percent.

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfa ... ml#largest" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Many people are seeking the truth and finding it. I find it interesting that what converts people to the church is the Holy Ghost (Moroni 10). What makes people lose their testimony despite this divine revelation is that they begin moving away from their foundation by digging up church history and finding all sorts of disinformation. Well church history goes all the way back to Adam and there is a LOT of dirt on kings, prophets, disciples, apostles, etc. from the days of Adam. The infallibility of men in the history of the church and the gospel did not begin in 1830. And so the tares separate themselves from the wheat because their minds have been darkened.

[Nan]

The Lord has to have a people prepared to meet him. The church will be just fine. Although some people will leave as the Lord cleans out all of us that refuse to be obedient.

[sadie_Mormon]

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." 1 Timothy 4:1-2


"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3

[sadie_Mormon]

The church is one of the fastest growing in the US:

1. The Catholic Church 68,202,492, [ranked 1 in 2011] , down 0.44 percent.
2. Southern Baptist Convention 16,136,044, [ranked 2 in 2011] , down 0.15 percent.
3. The United Methodist Church 7,679,850, [ranked 3 in 2011] , down 1.22 percent.
4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 6,157,238, [ranked 4 in 2011] , up 1.62 percent.
5. The Church of God in Christ 5,499,875, [ranked 5 in 2011] , no update reported.
6. National Baptist Convention , U.S.A. , Inc. 5,197,512, [ranked 6 in 2011] , up 3.95 percent.
7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America 4,274,855, [ranked 7 in 2011] , down 5.90 percent.
8. National Baptist Convention of America , Inc. 3,500,000, [ranked 8 in 2011] , no update reported.
9. Assemblies of God 3,030,944, [ranked 9 in 2011] , up 3.99 percent.
10. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) 2,675,873, [ranked 10 in 2011] , down 3.42 percent.

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfa ... ml#largest" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Growth is great but how about retention and activity percentages. I think that would reflect a more accurate number however I don't think they document that data unfortunately.

[marc]

Here you go:

http://www.mormoninformation.com/stats.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church ... ip_history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another good indication, however is that temples are still being built. Temples would not be built where there is no Zion. If the church built temples where wards and branch members weren't active, paying tithes, etc, those temples would be empty. The church started with 6 members. We're definitely on an upward trend.

[Matthew.B]

Growth is great but how about retention and activity percentages. I think that would reflect a more accurate number however I don't think they document that data unfortunately.

Such numbers still wouldn't be enough, or give as sound a representation as is recorded in the records of heaven. Many "active" and "faithful" members, judging by attendance records, etc., are tares who have found themselves in the midst of a unique culture with many, many good aspects, and so stay to leech nourishment for a time. Conversely, some who leave do so because of personal issues and will rejoin as the Church and they themselves are cleansed, repenting of their sins and past follies.

The Church has already gone through its major growth phase. It may go through another one, but there will also be one (or more) seasons of "trimming" and "cutting back" as the Destroying Angels of the Lord go about preparing the true Saints to receive their King, gathering the wheat out of the midst of the tares before leveling the field.

The Church *will* go through major changes very shortly, as man counts time, but a remnant will still survive through to the Millenium.

[LV Architect]

The Nephite Church is a type and shadow of the latter-day Church. Mormon carefully documents the establishment of the true Church and shows the eventual break up of that Church through spiritual disintegration. He shows us the key and then he shows us the three stages of the true church being taken over by the great and abominable church. Each stage is identified by a passage “the church began to,” and then he tells us what the church began to do; the church moves progressively towards its spiritual disintegration as it moves to only a few remaining firm, steadfast and immovable.

Mosiah 27:13 "This is my church, and I will establish it; and nothing shall boverthrow it, save it is the transgression of my people."

Alma 4:10 "and the wickedness of the church was a great stumbling-block to those who did not belong to the church; and thus the church began to fail in its progress.

Helaman 4:23 "And because of their iniquity the church had begun to dwindle; and they began to disbelieve in the spirit of prophecy and in the spirit of revelation; and the judgments of God did stare them in the face.

3 Nephi 6:14 "And thus there became a great inequality in all the land, insomuch that the church began to be broken up; yea, insomuch that in the thirtieth year the church was broken up in all the land save it were among a few of the Lamanites who were converted unto the true faith; and athey would not depart from it, for they were firm, and steadfast, and immovable, willing with all bdiligence to keep the commandments of the Lord."

We see these three clear, distinct, progressive movements of the church.

Stage 1 – fail in its progress
Stage 2 – dwindle in unbelief
Stage 3 – Broken up

Only a few remained firm, steadfast and immovable. Look at those words, firm, steadfast and immovable. The doctrine of the few is a really significant doctrine. “They weren’t moving where the many in the church were being persuaded to move, and to change their philosophies.” They weren’t so popular with the society we are in. We have seen way too many members move and are being persuaded by society; They say "maybe we're wrong, maybe our prophets and revelators are wrong about same-sex marriage." They are moving instead of remaining firm, steadfast and immovable.

Here is a snapshot of the Church today:

100 baptized boys become
Deacons 73
Teachers 64
Priests 56
Elders 43
How many Elders going on missions 28
How many missionaries stay active – 21
(Source - Bishop Burton Presiding Bishop of the Church)

Numbers are illusions. This is not a call to abandon the Church or an accusation against the brethen rather it is a call for us to keep our covenants and assist those around us to do the same. We are not ONE and when we are not one we are not His. We are a very pluralized church. We have no one to blame but ourselves. The prophets have been very clear and warned us repeatedly.

[awake]

I have head from some people that before Christ comes the church will fall apart, but the gospel will not be taken again from the earth. My husband says this is not true, but the church will grow by leaps and bounds, and "be better."

What will happen to the church before Christ comes again? Will it get better or will apostasy abound?

I believe the Book of Mormon teaches (2N28, Mormon 8, Hel. 8, D&C 33:4, (3N7:7-which Pr. Hinckley said reads like a daily newspaper) that "The Holy Church of God" will become corrupted and everyone will become deceived by false doctrines and philosophies of men, except a few who are the humble followers of Christ, thus the Gospel will never be completely lost, even though everyone in the Church except a few fall into apotasy.

I even heard a G.A. admit many years ago in a leadership mtg., that the members of the church are going down the same path as the world, but just at a little slower rate.

Today we only need look around to see the fulfillment of what the BoM Prophets said would happen, how most all members and leaders are being deceived to support and do evil these days.

[HeirofNumenor]

Many people are seeking the truth and finding it. I find it interesting that what converts people to the church is the Holy Ghost (Moroni 10). What makes people lose their testimony despite this divine revelation is that they begin moving away from their foundation by digging up church history and finding all sorts of disinformation. Well church history goes all the way back to Adam and there is a LOT of dirt on kings, prophets, disciples, apostles, etc. from the days of Adam. The infallibility of men in the history of the church and the gospel did not begin in 1830. And so the tares separate themselves from the wheat because their minds have been darkened.

:ymapplause:

[awake]

What makes people lose their testimony despite this divine revelation is that they begin moving away from their foundation by digging up church history and finding all sorts of disinformation

Studying church history isn't the problem. Studying church history is actually vital to our salvation, or we will just repeat the same mistakes of those in the past.

It's whether or not we possess the Spirit and understand the scriptures or not, that determines whether or not we learn from the truths from history or we let history lead us astray.

[marc]

What makes people lose their testimony despite this divine revelation is that they begin moving away from their foundation by digging up church history and finding all sorts of disinformation

Studying church history isn't the problem. Studying church history is actually vital to our salvation, or we will just repeat the same mistakes of those in the past.

It's whether or not we possess the Spirit and understand the scriptures or not, that determines whether or not we learn from the truths from history or we let history lead us astray.

Awake, I agree that studying church history is vital. But that is not entirely what I said. Allow me to repeat with emphasis added:

What makes people lose their testimony despite this divine revelation is that they begin moving away from their foundation by digging up church history and finding all sorts of disinformation

If we are built upon the rock, we cannot fall, no matter how much history we study. I will confess that once in a while, I will visit an "anti" site just to see what kind of "information" they are sharing. And because I am built upon the rock and because my footing is sure, and I am in tune with the Spirit, what I find in those sites bear only corrupt fruit and the information literally falls flat. There is just no point to digging through barren ground where only weeds and thistles grow. There is just no reason for it. Rather than muddying myself, I end up not spending any time at all on those worthless websites. My point is there are people who lose faith because they are built upon the sand and when the rains fall, they are washed away. All the dirt on Joseph Smith, for example, is water off a ducks back in my testimony because I know He was a prophet of God. How true it is when he was told:

"...and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people” (JS—H 1:33).

When our eye is focused on the glory of God, we can then correctly focus on church history and bear good fruit, which the Holy Ghost can edify. Only then can we learn line upon line and precept upon precept. Nobody in the history of man has ever learned in this manner by going round and round in disputation circles.

[Book of Ruth]

3 Nephi Chp 9
verses 1-12 are the cleansing of the Nephites/Lamanites, and then vs 13 explains why some were spared.

13 O all ye that are spared because ye were more righteous than they, will ye not now return unto me, and repent of your sins, and be converted, that I may heal you?

What hit me was this; Christ had already suffered completely humiliation, mocking, beatings, pain etc. This was completely and perfectly accomplished. He will never have to come to a people and suffer this again. Those who will see the Lord will be those who will worship Him with respect, with reverent awe. He is King, to see Him, you have to live righteously and pay the price to obtain His presence. From the point of His death, the wicked no longer were privledged to have Him in their midst.

[HeirofNumenor]

Another good indication, however is that temples are still being built. Temples would not be built where there is no Zion. If the church built temples where wards and branch members weren't active, paying tithes, etc, those temples would be empty. The church started with 6 members. We're definitely on an upward trend.

I made a list 2 nights ago, calculating when all the under construction/announced temples would be operation, if normal approval/construction processes hold steady
(I couldn't sleep i-) ).

Disclaimer: I see very bad things happening to the LDS Church (massive persecution) & the USA in the next 5 years - probable national collapse in/by 2016-17.

In 2012, we will likely have 5 new temples dedicated (2 done already), along with 2 re-dedications.
In 2013, we may have 2 new temples, with possibly 1 re-dedication.
In 2014, we will have at least 6 - new temples dedicated, maybe 8 more, and 1 re-dedication (if it didn't happen in 2013)
In 2015, we have one scheduled to be finished, with maybe 2 not finished in 2014

Another 13 are announced/in planning stages...

My calculations (based off of http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/construction/)

DEDICATION/CONSTRUCTION SCHEDULE
2012
Kansas City, MO May 2012
Manaus, Brazil June 2012
Buenos Aries, Argentina Sept 2012 (re-ded.)
Brigham City, UT Sept 2012
Calgary, ALB, Canada Oct 2012
Boise, ID Nov 2012 ? (re-ded.)
Tegucipala, Honduras Dec 2012 ?


2013
Gilbert, AZ 2013
Phoenix, AZ 2013-14


2014
Ogden, UT (re-ded.)
Cordoba, Argentina
Rome, Italy
Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Fortaleza, Brazil
Sapporo, Japan
Provo City Center (UT) late 2014
Payson, UT 2014-15
Philadelphia, PA 2014-15

2015
Trujillio, Peru



ANNOUNCED TEMPLES
Sites announced, planning is in final approval stages
Possible ground-breakings 2012-13
Possible completions 2015-17

Hartford, CT
Indianapolis, IN
Meridian, ID
Star Valley, WY
Ft. Collins, CO
Paris, France (undergoing asbestos-removal studies)


Site not announced yet, in planning stages
Possible ground-breakings 2013-14
Possible completions 2016-17

Concepcion, Chile
Tijuana, Mexico
Urdaneta, Philippines
Kinshasa, Democratic Republic of the Congo (formerly Zaire)
Libson, Portugal
Durban, South Africa
Winnipeg, MAN, Canada



PUBLICY PROPOSED TEMPLES (promised possibility of)
New Delhi, India
Nairobi, Kenya
Maracaibo, Venezuela
Singapore
Bangkok, Thailand
SW Salt Lake Valley (UT)
Managua, Nicaragua



PROPHESIED
Independence, MO
Far West, MO
Adam-Ondi-Ahman, MO

[awake]

My point is there are people who lose faith because they are built upon the sand and when the rains fall, they are washed away. All the dirt on Joseph Smith, for example, is water off a ducks back in my testimony because I know He was a prophet of God.

I also avoid the anti sites. But the fact is that it's not only the 'disinformation' that just causes people to leave the church but the 'true' information about the church and past leaders that causes people to lose their testimony about the truthfulness of the church.

Even the Church Historian Elder Jensen, who recently said the church is experiencing it's greatest exodus of members, since 1837, said his own daughter questioned him saying "You never told me Joseph Smith lived polygamy".

Clearly even the truth needs to be dealt with and understood properly and with the Spirit. For people need to understand that even if church leaders error or fall, the Gospel is still true.

The 'truth' about church history needs to be studied with the Spirit and the Scriptures to understand it correctly.

Now I believe Joseph was a true prophet who was righteous and strong. But, that doesn't mean that he or any Prophet couldn't fall or lead the church astray or that none did fall throughout history. Hence Joseph taught us D&C 107. You say that all the dirt on Joseph Smith wouldn't affect your testimony, but that is not using your reasoning and following the command to 'prove all things' and to be able to discern if even prophets or apostles teach or taught false doctrine or even fell.

Again, I don't believe Joseph Smith ever fell or taught us false doctrines. But I'm just saying it's possible for any prophet to do.

Bottom line is we need to study 'true' church history to understand the whole picture of the Church and the Gospel, warts and all.

And the truth seems to be, that if missionaries were forthright with investigators about the 'true' things that went on in church history, it's questionable if most people would still join the church. For that's the reason for the exodus now happening, people are finding out the truth about our history, not necessarily disinformation.

[karend77]

[
Bottom line is we need to study church history to understand the whole picture of the Church and the Gospel, warts and all.

And the truth seems to be, that if missionaries were forthright with investigators about the 'true' things that went on in church history, it's questionable if most people would still join the church. For that's the reason for the exodus now happening, people are finding out the truth about our history, not necessarily disinformation.

I respectfully disagree. The missionaries are there to teach the Plan of Salvation and the fact that this is the true Church of Jesus Christ which has been restored on earth. As a convert myself, that's all I needed to know to get baptized. The subsequent years of study of church history does nothing but strengthen my testimony- that even with imperfect people great things can come to pass.

As for the large exodus of members, the church is pretty strict in comparison to the world and it requires service/sacrifice that many are not willing to make.

[awake]

The missionaries are there to teach the Plan of Salvation and the fact that this is the true Church of Jesus Christ which has been restored on earth.

The Plan of Salvation and the fact that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and restored the true Church and gave us the Book of Mormon and other scriptures is all true and wonderful and people can surely gain a strong testimony of those things, but it is all a separate issue from the truths about church history.

[gdemetz]

The church will grow into a great mountain and fill the whole earth and it will never be destroyed or left to other people as Daniel prophesied. I think one problem on this site is that some people read to much into one or a few statements.

[karend77]

The Plan of Salvation and the fact that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and restored the true Church and gave us the Book of Mormon and other scriptures is all true and wonderful and people can surely gain a strong testimony of those things, but it is all a separate issue from the truths about church history.

Correct, and that is not the missionaries job (teach comprehensive church history). A testimony is not based on what we see or read, but by a witness of the Holy Ghost. Week after week I watch missionaries from throughout the world bear powerful humble testimonies of the Savior and of why they are sacrificing a couple years of their lives to preach the gospel.

If we continue to pray and have that Gift (Holy Ghost) in our lives, as these histories (which might or might not be based on facts.... re- Michael Quinn=opinion) are introduced into our lives, we can seek understanding or we can fall apart when the warts or imperfections are shown.

[marc]

DEDICATION/CONSTRUCTION SCHEDULE
2012
Kansas City, MO May 2012
Manaus, Brazil June 2012
Buenos Aries, Argentina Sept 2012 (re-ded.)
Brigham City, UT Sept 2012
Calgary, ALB, Canada Oct 2012
Boise, ID Nov 2012 ? (re-ded.)
Tegucipala, Honduras Dec 2012 ?

I can't wait for Brigham City's temple to open. I live several blocks away.

[karend77]

DEDICATION/CONSTRUCTION SCHEDULE
2012
Kansas City, MO May 2012
Manaus, Brazil June 2012
Buenos Aries, Argentina Sept 2012 (re-ded.)
Brigham City, UT Sept 2012
Calgary, ALB, Canada Oct 2012
Boise, ID Nov 2012 ? (re-ded.)
Tegucipala, Honduras Dec 2012 ?

I can't wait for Brigham City's temple to open. I live several blocks away.

Congrats!

[Juliette]

[
Bottom line is we need to study church history to understand the whole picture of the Church and the Gospel, warts and all.

And the truth seems to be, that if missionaries were forthright with investigators about the 'true' things that went on in church history, it's questionable if most people would still join the church. For that's the reason for the exodus now happening, people are finding out the truth about our history, not necessarily disinformation.

I respectfully disagree. The missionaries are there to teach the Plan of Salvation and the fact that this is the true Church of Jesus Christ which has been restored on earth. As a convert myself, that's all I needed to know to get baptized. The subsequent years of study of church history does nothing but strengthen my testimony- that even with imperfect people great things can come to pass.

As for the large exodus of members, the church is pretty strict in comparison to the world and it requires service/sacrifice that many are not willing to make.

Great post Karen! I'm so happy you converted to this gospel! Converts are special people.