How are the things we learn useful?

[mingano]

Deeper question here, never really addressed.

If you take a class and learn how paint works you are preparing for a career in bridge design and maintenance.

Study dirt and you are preparing yourself for construction, architecture, or engineering.

In almost everything we learn we can see how it has practical uses for the future.

But the important aspects of the gospel, living how Christ would have us live, how does that ultimately help us? We learn how to love, then die - how is that ever actually put to use? Practicing and devoting our lives to a particular sport, then refusing to compete - what is at the end of that route of preparation?

What are the common threads of mortality? We get a physical body and that's about all that we have in common. How does all of this work? Why are some given really easy assignments - "you are to go down, get a body, then die 5 minutes later and you're all done and are guaranteed eternal exaltation with no questions asked" and others get really hard ones - "you will be born, live a life of painful social alienation, you will never experience love, friendship or any aspect of social comfort and will live until you are 100 with a gradual and painful deterioration of your mind and body that you can see coming decades in advance with no way to stop it until you die alone in a nursing home flooded by a hurricane". Why the different lessons? How can both be relevant to where one gets to end up in the eternities?

[marc]

"Be ye therefore perfect even as I or your Father in Heaven are perfect."

To be heirs of salvation and exaltation is to be joint heirs with Jesus Christ. To be joint heirs with Jesus Christ is to be like Jesus Christ. When we see Him we shall see Him as He is because we will be like Him. What are His attributes? Knowledge, meekness, charity, forgiving, obedient, etc, etc. Learning these qualities and becoming them are very useful in obtaining an inheritance with our Savior in His kingdom.

[mingano]

Knowledge, meekness, charity, forgiving, obedient, etc, etc. Learning these qualities and becoming them are very useful in obtaining an inheritance with our Savior in His kingdom.

Ok, but these lessons can obviously be learned without a long, drawn-out mortal existence.

I'm trying to figure out why mortality is relevant for anything beyond obtaining a physical body.

[Fairminded]

I firmly believe that the reason we came to this earth, and some of the most important lessons the Gospel teaches, involve learning how to treat others. The Savior spent almost his entire time on earth teaching by word and deed how a Christian should treat his fellow man. Joseph Smith likewise spent much of his time helping others and befriending those society would call undesirables. The scriptures are full of prophets trying to get this message across to us. (Are we not all beggars?)

Sadly, these sorts of lessons are almost never emphasized in church, and all the focus is placed on personal cleanliness and worthiness, as well as seeking the Holy Ghost as a constant companion for personal benefit. For some odd reason Primary lessons focus a lot on being nice to people and helping people, and then that's that and we rarely hear those kind of lessons again.

I guess it boils down to "Do as I say, not as I do." All these kids grow up being taught to treat others well. Then once they get to a certain age those sorts of lessons stop, and more importantly most of the adults they see don't seem very interested in treating people nicely, and usually behave the exact opposite. No wonder they come to the obvious conclusion that it's not an important part of the Gospel.

[awake]

I'm trying to figure out why mortality is relevant for anything beyond obtaining a physical body.

According to D&C 74 and 45, life is so we can be tested to see if we can be deceived to not, by the craftiness and philosophies of men and false doctrines, etc., to see if we will live worthy of the Holy Spirit as our guide and fight for right, freedom and truth.

Joseph Smith said that those who possess 'Charity' can't be deceived, that's one reason why we want to gain that most vital trait in this life.

Children who die must have proven their obedience in the Pre-Existence and not needed testing on a corrupted earth, though they will have some testing in the Millennium, to see if they gain Exaltation or not, which to do so, even they must pass the 'marriage' test.

[mingano]

I firmly believe that the reason we came to this earth, and some of the most important lessons the Gospel teaches, involve learning how to treat others.

What about those who come to this earth and then die immediately? They aren't going to be denied anything, ever - and in fact appear to be the ones that God loves most of all because he didn't give them even a glimmer of possibly failing to return to exaltation. So clearly and demonstrably the CK does not require any lessons learned in mortality, no experiences, no growth, no nothing - for all of those people who died before the age of 8 the mortal existence is nothing more than a check on a list, an effortless, painless and risk-free token of a task.

To take the So You Think You Can Dance model, these are those who go straight through to Vegas while the rest of us were sent to choreography.

[mingano]

Children who die must have proven their obedience in the Pre-Existence and not needed testing on a corrupted earth, though they will have some testing in the Millennium, to see if they gain Exaltation or not, which to do so, even they must pass the 'marriage' test.

There will be no "marriage test", they will obviously get married because there wouldn't be any reason not to. They have it easy, no challenges, no risk, no trials. They are done, guaranteed exaltation period no matter what.

[marc]

Knowledge, meekness, charity, forgiving, obedient, etc, etc. Learning these qualities and becoming them are very useful in obtaining an inheritance with our Savior in His kingdom.

Ok, but these lessons can obviously be learned without a long, drawn-out mortal existence.

I'm trying to figure out why mortality is relevant for anything beyond obtaining a physical body.

Christ spent thirty years learning line upon line, precept upon precept. Adam and many other patriarchs in the day lived hundreds and hundreds of years in their mortal probation. Today we are lucky to live a hundred years. Ask yourself if you have truly learned to be obedient to all of God's commandments cheerfully and if you truly understand and live the law of sacrifice. Do you have love in your heart for every person you see on the street? Do have any ill will whatsoever toward anybody for any reason no matter how insignificant? Have you absorbed all the light, knowledge and mysteries of the kingdom that has bee so far shared with us from the ancient prophets through our modern prophets, especially Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc? I've learned so much in my forty years and I can tell you that the more I know, the more I know how little I know. There's knowing and there's being. When we have mastered being, we just might be ready for Christ to take us the rest of the way.

[mingano]

Christ spent thirty years

Special case. Not germane.

Adam and many other patriarchs in the day lived hundreds and hundreds of years in their mortal probation.

They had special purposes, unique to themselves - they were here explicitly for others. Somebody had to do it.

Today we are lucky to live a hundred years.

I hardly consider that to be luck.

Ask yourself if you have truly learned to be obedient to all of God's commandments cheerfully and if you truly understand and live the law of sacrifice. Do you have love in your heart for every person you see on the street? Do have any ill will whatsoever toward anybody for any reason no matter how insignificant?

You are missing the key point of the question. Yes, I hold a couple of grudges (but not ill will) towards a couple of people and even an institution or two, but had I been one of the lucky ones to die at birth that would not have happened.

Have you absorbed all the light, knowledge and mysteries of the kingdom that has bee so far shared with us from the ancient prophets through our modern prophets, especially Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc?

There are so many different versions of what that light actually is (just look at this forum) that nobody will ever agree on what it is. But again, such a question is irrelevant for those who are never asked to worry about it.

[awake]

Children who die must have proven their obedience in the Pre-Existence and not needed testing on a corrupted earth, though they will have some testing in the Millennium, to see if they gain Exaltation or not, which to do so, even they must pass the 'marriage' test.

There will be no "marriage test", they will obviously get married because there wouldn't be any reason not to. They have it easy, no challenges, no risk, no trials. They are done, guaranteed exaltation period no matter what.

I believe there will still be tests for them. Getting married may be easy, but staying righteous in marriage and keeping your covenants to your spouse is the hard part, which very few seem to be able to do. I believe even some in the Millennium won't achieve Exaltation, but instead either Terrestrial or lower Celestial. Plus there is the final war and wickedness again towards the end of the Millennium, that will probably cause many people to fall and lose their Exaltation.

[mingano]

I believe there will still be tests for them.

Maybe, but they won't have to deal with those tests with all of the other irrelevant distractions we mortals must face.

But Moroni 8 clearly specifies that they are blameless, 100% free of any and all sin. They go straight to paradise and wait out the events of the world until the final judgment. I don't think it is possible to sin in paradise so they are guaranteed a straight shot.

Plus there is the final war and wickedness again towards the end of the Millennium, that will probably cause many people to fall and lose their Exaltation.

The final war is for those still on the earth after the 1,000 years - they won't be bringing anybody else back to the planet to participate.

[marc]

Christ spent thirty years

Special case. Not germane.

Adam and many other patriarchs in the day lived hundreds and hundreds of years in their mortal probation.

They had special purposes, unique to themselves - they were here explicitly for others. Somebody had to do it.

Today we are lucky to live a hundred years.

I hardly consider that to be luck.

Ask yourself if you have truly learned to be obedient to all of God's commandments cheerfully and if you truly understand and live the law of sacrifice. Do you have love in your heart for every person you see on the street? Do have any ill will whatsoever toward anybody for any reason no matter how insignificant?

You are missing the key point of the question. Yes, I hold a couple of grudges (but not ill will) towards a couple of people and even an institution or two, but had I been one of the lucky ones to die at birth that would not have happened.

Have you absorbed all the light, knowledge and mysteries of the kingdom that has bee so far shared with us from the ancient prophets through our modern prophets, especially Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc?

There are so many different versions of what that light actually is (just look at this forum) that nobody will ever agree on what it is. But again, such a question is irrelevant for those who are never asked to worry about it.

I think I need to be more frank and plain. Yes Christ's circumstance was unique. So is yours and so is mine. I am not missing the key points. The key point is to liken what you learn to yourself. That is the entire point. And yes, nobody can agree 'on what it is' because very few are truly actively seeking the same important thing. There are things that we all must learn. And learning what they are and learning from them is what is important. Then they become useful. Because then we become what we learn. Alma tried telling the people of Zarahemla this important principle. But it's not only important to learn it and become it, it's more important that it become permanent. We only have a few decades to learn principles that will impact eons and eternities of life.

[mingano]

And yes, nobody can agree 'on what it is' because very few are truly actively seeking the same important thing.

I would disagree on this - I think that pretty much every person you see in church on Sunday is actively seeking the same important thing.

We only have a few decades to learn principles that will impact eons and eternities of life.

You're still not addressing the question - why are WE given these "few decades" and so many others are not? Clearly a soul doesn't really miss out on anything important by not having a drawn out physical existence.

[Fairminded]

What about those who come to this earth and then die immediately? They aren't going to be denied anything, ever - and in fact appear to be the ones that God loves most of all because he didn't give them even a glimmer of possibly failing to return to exaltation. So clearly and demonstrably the CK does not require any lessons learned in mortality, no experiences, no growth, no nothing - for all of those people who died before the age of 8 the mortal existence is nothing more than a check on a list, an effortless, painless and risk-free token of a task.

To take the So You Think You Can Dance model, these are those who go straight through to Vegas while the rest of us were sent to choreography.

Maybe the people who died instantly didn't need to learn any lessons about how to deal with their fellow man. Maybe we're the unfortunate ones, because those people would've been great friends and good examples and we're stuck on earth with all the ornery contentious folks .

[mingano]

Maybe the people who died instantly didn't need to learn any lessons about how to deal with their fellow man. Maybe we're the unfortunate ones, because those people would've been great friends and good examples and we're stuck on earth with all the ornery contentious folks.

A valid theory. I still covet the ease with which they sailed through which is most likely the suckiest part of eternity without so much as a scratch or a bruise.

[marc]

And yes, nobody can agree 'on what it is' because very few are truly actively seeking the same important thing.

I would disagree on this - I think that pretty much every person you see in church on Sunday is actively seeking the same important thing.

Ahh, you are thinking of dedicated church members. I am speaking of all of God's children on earth.

We only have a few decades to learn principles that will impact eons and eternities of life.

You're still not addressing the question - why are WE given these "few decades" and so many others are not? Clearly a soul doesn't really miss out on anything important by not having a drawn out physical existence.

In my studies, I have come to learn that some were much more valiant in the premortal existence in their agency and testimony and in the battle against casting Lucifer out of heaven while others were fence sitters. Ever wonder why some people are born with such mental handicaps that they virtually have to other purpose than to gain a physical body with which to resurrect? And there are others who are born only to live days, weeks or months. What might take some of us a lifetime to learn, others have already learned before taking their first breath in life.

Maybe the people who died instantly didn't need to learn any lessons about how to deal with their fellow man. Maybe we're the unfortunate ones, because those people would've been great friends and good examples and we're stuck on earth with all the ornery contentious folks.

A valid theory. I still covet the ease with which they sailed through which is most likely the suckiest part of eternity without so much as a scratch or a bruise.

I don't. I've been through hell many times in my life, but I wouldn't trade it for the world, crazy as it sounds. For people who have had the easy life will be sorely ill prepared when the smallest tribulation befalls them. My wife hasn't been through nearly the crap I've been through in life, especially growing up. Consequently, the more difficult times in the last twenty years of our marriage have been much harder on her than me. For me it was just another day.

[mingano]

In my studies, I have come to learn that some were much more valiant in the premortal existence in their agency and testimony and in the battle against casting Lucifer out of heaven while others were fence sitters.

That's probably part of it, but not all of it. Otherwise our prophets would have be considered to be less than they are - was JS less valiant than every child who died in infancy? I would not believe so.

Ever wonder why some people are born with such mental handicaps that they virtually have to other purpose than to gain a physical body with which to resurrect? And there are others who are born only to live days, weeks or months.

This is exactly my point.

I've been through hell many times in my life, but I wouldn't trade it for the world, crazy as it sounds.

If I could see a point to it then I'd agree.

For people who have had the easy life will be sorely ill prepared when the smallest tribulation befalls them.

I wish we had been allowed to pick our own lives. Being a 1800s blacksmith on the American frontier or a 1400s European alchemist would have been much more enjoyable. If neither of those options were available then I'd be a Romney or a Marriott.

[davedan]

Applying the Example of Jesus Christ.

We are fighting against the flesh here in mortality. We feel hunger, we eat. We feel hormones, we reproduce. We feel feel scared, we run. We feel offended, we hold a grudge. We are hurt, we get revenge. Being a son or daughter of God we are given commandments and power to be different than animals or slaves to the natural man.

Because of Christ we can feel hungry, and choose to fast. we fell hormonal, but choose to abstain. We feel scared, but we stand our ground. We feel offended or are hurt, and we can choose to forgive. Choosing in this way, is the agency of man; it is the power to act and not be acted upon.

Why are some people's testing shorter than others? Maybe we planned out how our own lives would go before coming to Earth.. Not that we could plan out everything, but we could decide what talents, how physical aspects, what period and situation we are born into. Why would someone choose hardship? Where much is given, much is required. I don't know that is true, but even considering that kinda blows the mind.

[marc]

I've been through hell many times in my life, but I wouldn't trade it for the world, crazy as it sounds.

If I could see a point to it then I'd agree.

I'm a certified personal trainer. As such I can tell you the best way to build a strong, mobile and flexible body through the use of a variety of exercises and proper nutrition. Weight training is is ideal for building stronger muscles, tougher connective tissues and denser bones. Mobility exercise such as yoga and stretching are ideal to keep said muscles and connective tissues pliable, and flexible and to help one maintain an optimal range of motion. Proper nutrition ensures that the brain, the body and all organs are properly supplied to stay healthy and disease free. Otherwise we become overweight, diabetic, diseased, immobile, etc. As we get older, we can easily revert to the fetal position (noticed many elderly hunch over, can't get out of bed, etc) not because we're simply getting older, but because we stopped doing all the things we did as children. Playing is natural exercise. We play, run, climb, jump, etc.

It takes a lot of hard work to build a strong, muscular body. You go through periods of pain and growth, etc. That is the cycle. Farmers have strong backs and hands. Doctors have years of education to learn the art of saving lives. Such results are the products of years and years, if not a lifetime of learning and labor. Our trials and labors in life are designed to bring us closer to Christ. Christ was the example of sacrifice and obedience. These are the two most important principles required to follow Him and be like Him. He sacrificed everything. Nobody can be worthy of the Celestial kingdom without learning what it means to sacrifice everything, most importantly a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

The only way I can simplify it any further is to liken it to a mountain. We do not summit Everest without developing strong legs, optimal endurance, etc. We develop certain qualities and characteristics along the way that we can only appreciate once we reach the top to appreciate the view and obtain rest. The same thing applies in our journey to Mount Zion, the mountain of the Lord, the Celestial Kingdom. We build spiritual muscles through learning and leaning on the Lord who blazed the trail. We simply cannot reach the top without enduring the pains of growth.

For people who have had the easy life will be sorely ill prepared when the smallest tribulation befalls them.

I wish we had been allowed to pick our own lives. Being a 1800s blacksmith on the American frontier or a 1400s European alchemist would have been much more enjoyable. If neither of those options were available then I'd be a Romney or a Marriott.

You might also find yourself conscripted into fight wars that you don't believe in. The Civil War was brutal. You might then find yourself part of a unit that you don't want any part of like rounding up native Americans and either killing them or taking them to reservations, etc. There are very few rosy periods in history and if there were, they came at great prices. Or you might have suffered through the many civil wars in Europe in the 1400's or been plagued by diseases, suffered being policed because of the Inquisition, etc.

[mingano]

You might also find yourself conscripted into fight wars that you don't believe in. The Civil War was brutal. You might then find yourself part of a unit that you don't want any part of like rounding up native Americans and either killing them or taking them to reservations, etc.

In the hypothetical where you get to choose your own life none of that would happen.

There are very few rosy periods in history and if there were, they came at great prices.

Don't need a rosy period, just a period where if I'm going to be an irrelevant nobody anyway then I might as well skip a lot of the crap.

[JerL]

Mingano, I have wondered and felt the same things. There have been periods in my life that I wished I could have been born into a different time period, and seen the trials of others as easy. My understanding is that we are here to see what we will make of ourselves with the Lords help.

Abraham 3:25

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

Moses 6:56

56 And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves, and I have given unto you another law and commandment.

3 Nephi 12:48

48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

2 Nephi 2:26-27

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

So how do you use your agency?

[mingano]

So how do you use your agency?

Enduring to the end, mostly. That seems to be just about all that is asked of me.

[Original_Intent]

I have heard many times that when we are tested, it is not to show God what we will do (He already knows) but to show ourselves.

I thinki there are a few reasons why we come here. One might be that in the pre-existence, perhaps we supported God valiantly, but deep down we wondered if we really did or if we were just really good suck-ups? Sure, God knew, but did we? Could we? Or were we just lining up on what we figured was "the winning side".

Another reason is that we may actually be changed eternally by our experiences here. I;ve seen both sides of the argument, there are those that say that if you are destined to be a God, then you already were a God, always were, and you are just becoming what you already are. Maybe. I liked the way that C.S. Lewis explained it - paraphrasing, he said that God always knew how each of us would turn out, but we still had to go through the process to become it. Somewhat like knowing what kind of food a certain recipe will make, but you still have to go through the process of mixing the ingredients, baking it at a certain temperature for a certain time...there is probably a degree of truth in both views.

[SpeedRacer]

Deeper question here, never really addressed.

If you take a class and learn how paint works you are preparing for a career in bridge design and maintenance.

Study dirt and you are preparing yourself for construction, architecture, or engineering.

In almost everything we learn we can see how it has practical uses for the future.

But the important aspects of the gospel, living how Christ would have us live, how does that ultimately help us? We learn how to love, then die - how is that ever actually put to use? Practicing and devoting our lives to a particular sport, then refusing to compete - what is at the end of that route of preparation?

What are the common threads of mortality? We get a physical body and that's about all that we have in common. How does all of this work? Why are some given really easy assignments - "you are to go down, get a body, then die 5 minutes later and you're all done and are guaranteed eternal exaltation with no questions asked" and others get really hard ones - "you will be born, live a life of painful social alienation, you will never experience love, friendship or any aspect of social comfort and will live until you are 100 with a gradual and painful deterioration of your mind and body that you can see coming decades in advance with no way to stop it until you die alone in a nursing home flooded by a hurricane". Why the different lessons? How can both be relevant to where one gets to end up in the eternities?

Don't be angry or jealous. Just humbly submit. Aknowledge that his thoughts are higher than your thoughts. Understand that there was a long life span as a spirit before we came here. Christ was God before he even started his mortal ministry. He had his C&E pre-birth, there is a good chance some others might have as well. Don't quote me on that.

All things are present before God, look at D&C 130. If there is any rational to this life, it is that we are here to prove it to ourselves. We are the ones that don't know. You worked out a plan with God. When you finally yield to the enticings of the holy spirit in all things, and put off the natural man, and are able to recieve all things, then you will begin to be able to learn why your plan is what it is. God is perfectly just and merciful. Never attempt to judge your place by looking at another, and never envy. I wish I could follow all this advice myself. It is hard, but it is the truth.

Lean on the Lord, and he will comfort you.

[mingano]

All things are present before God, look at D&C 130. If there is any rational to this life, it is that we are here to prove it to ourselves. We are the ones that don't know.

You can say that again. I wish I didn't know that I didn't know so much.

Never attempt to judge your place by looking at another, and never envy.

There isn't a person alive that I envy. Judging myself against others, though... all the time, but not like how most people would do.