The Virtue of Captain Moroni

[Ben McClintock]

http://www.mormonchronicle.com/the-virt ... in-moroni/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The war chapters of the book of Alma cannot be used as rational support for offensive or preemptive war. They cannot be used as rational for unrighteous force. The Nephites acted in a purely defensive manner. They didn’t even pursue the prisoners that were carried off into the landof Nephi.

read the rest at the link above

[awake]

Ah yes, where are the Moroni's of today? Are there any?

[Poltax]

While Moroni followed the so called defensive fighting. There are many instances in which he took the fight to the Lamanites. However he never did go out of the boundaries of the Nephite Nation, to take over the Lamanites. What the article fails to bring up and discuss, is the little letter to Pahoran in which Moroni states that he would come and slaughter everyone that did not help him. Why is it that people seem to make the scriptures into an interpretation of what they want and not what the real deal is. Its the same as the pacification claim of the Anti Nephi Lehi's or Ammonites. How can any one believe the pacification claim, when the Anti Nephi Lehi's plainly sent their own Sons, the "Stripling Warriors" to fight in their place, due to the oath that parents had taken.

[Original_Intent]

While Moroni followed the so called defensive fighting. There are many instances in which he took the fight to the Lamanites. However he never did go out of the boundaries of the Nephite Nation, to take over the Lamanites. What the article fails to bring up and discuss, is the little letter to Pahoran in which Moroni states that he would come and slaughter everyone that did not help him. Why is it that people seem to make the scriptures into an interpretation of what they want and not what the real deal is. Its the same as the pacification claim of the Anti Nephi Lehi's or Ammonites. How can any one believe the pacification claim, when the Anti Nephi Lehi's plainly sent their own Sons, the "Stripling Warriors" to fight in their place, due to the oath that parents had taken.

Moroni did not threaten to slaughter everyone that would not come help him. Haven't seen anyone making pacifist claims regarding the anti-Nephi-Lehis either. Straw men are easy to beat though.

[Poltax]

OI.........Moroni clearly stated in Alma 60 versus 25-27, what he would do. He would come to the seat of Government and on the way collect all that had a spark of freedom still in their hearts. If those that would not repent of their wrong doing. Which was not support the cause of freedom & support the armies, then he, Moroni and his army, would "stir up insurrections among them", and "make them extinct".

Actually, the first I had every heard of anyone thinking that the story of the Anti Nephi Lehi's was a pacifist story was on this forum. I do not have the links to the posts or threads, but I clearly remember 2 or 3. I remember them because I posted my thoughts in each of them.

[jonesde]

OI.........Moroni clearly stated in Alma 60 versus 25-27, what he would do. He would come to the seat of Government and on the way collect all that had a spark of freedom still in their hearts. If those that would not repent of their wrong doing. Which was not support the cause of freedom & support the armies, then he, Moroni and his army, would "stir up insurrections among them", and "make them extinct".

Try reading it again. Moroni didn't have a problem with people not supporting freedom or the Nephite armies, Moroni had a problem with people actually conspiring with the enemy... including some trying to take over the government who were conspiring with the Lamanites.

He didn't have a problem with people who refused to fight and he didn't force anyone to fight, he had a problem with people fighting against their own people in an attempt to join up with the enemy to kill or enslave their brethren.

It's a big difference.

[JerL]

All the while growing up I was taught that it was never a just war to strike first. It was not in our interests to have a "preemptive action", because it is not a valid doctrine.

I believe that these verses from Alma 43: 45-46 sum up justifiable force:

45 Nevertheless, the Nephites were inspired by a better cause, for they were not fighting for monarchy nor power but they were fighting for their homes and their liberties, their wives and their children, and their all, yea, for their rites of worship and their church.

46 And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God; for the Lord had said unto them, and also unto their fathers, that: Inasmuch as ye are not guilty of the first offense, neither the second, ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies.

[awake]

Moroni clearly stated in Alma 60 versus 25-27, what he would do. He would come to the seat of Government and on the way collect all that had a spark of freedom still in their hearts. If those that would not repent of their wrong doing. Which was not support the cause of freedom & support the armies, then he, Moroni and his army, would "stir up insurrections among them", and "make them extinct".

Whatever Moroni said and intended to do, was right, and we should learn from him. For he was a man of perfect understanding about these things. He knew how serious and evil it was for someone to not be willing to support freedom and fight for it.

[marc]

Alma 48:17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.

Captain Moroni was a man of God, a prophet and a defender of liberty. He did nothing without first consulting with the Lord in prayer. Before going to war to reclaim Nephite territory, preserve life, liberty and the values of his people, he went to the Lord in prayer for approval first. He also sought approval from the voice of the people. He didn't just become a renegade. He was the appointed chief captain of the armies and went through all proper channels first.

Alma 60:33 Ye know that ye do transgress the laws of God, and ye do know that ye do trample them under your feet. Behold, the Lord saith unto me: If those whom ye have appointed your governors do not repent of their sins and iniquities, ye shall go up to battle against them.

The Lord essentially told Captain Moroni to cleanse the inward vessel. The Lord knew there was an insurrection and He knew that Moroni would find out the truth and so he did when Pahoran replied to his epistle. And together they did root out the treasonous usurpers from their ill gotten power. Zarahemla had been taken over by the Nephite dissenters who had become allies with the Lamanites that were warring with Captain Moroni's armies along with Helaman, Teancum and Lehi. As soon as Moroni received Pahoran's epistle, it had all made sense. No relief, no supplies, no provisions, no more armies. To understand Captain Moroni's campaigns, you have to understand the politics in the land of Zarahemla and the wickedness of the Lamanites, who had been stirred up by the likes of Zarahemna.

[Poltax]

Joneside.... Nothing in Alma 60 says what Moroni thought about those that would not commit. JMHO ........I do not think that Moroni had much use for fence sitters. You were ether for freedom or not The Lord plainly explains his position on fence sitters in Revelations. Stand for one side or the other, your more condemned if you do not choose a side.

Coachmarc... great summation, wish I was as eloquent.

[jonesde]

Joneside.... Nothing in Alma 60 says what Moroni thought about those that would not commit. JMHO ........I do not think that Moroni had much use for fence sitters. You were ether for freedom or not The Lord plainly explains his position on fence sitters in Revelations. Stand for one side or the other, your more condemned if you do not choose a side.

Coachmarc... great summation, wish I was as eloquent.

You're right, it says nothing about them. It only talks about Moroni acting against those who were treasonously collaborating with an enemy that was attacking their people.

Do you really think that Moroni would have forced people who didn't want to fight with a threat of violence, even though (as you said) it doesn't say he did? Would he have killed people who refused to fight, and not just those who were actively fighting against them and for the enemy?

I really don't think so, that goes against so many teaching of Christ and through Prophets.

Your argument about standing on one side or the other doesn't hold either. If it's all or nothing, then why are there three degrees of glory, plus an outer darkness, and within each degree of glory we also know there are multiple (who knows how many) divisions.

[marc]

When Moroni returned to Zarahemla, there were people who did join Moroni's cause (followers) after a change of heart. It was those who were the governors and those born into positions of power that refused to take the title of liberty. They were the usurpers who preferred death and they got it. This pattern is repeated even among the Lamanites and those who battled against Moroni's army. Zarahemnah, himself, finally covenanted with Moroni to never war again when he knew he was about to perish.

19 Now Zerahemnah, when he saw that they were all about to be destroyed, cried mightily unto Moroni, promising that he would covenant and also his people with them, if they would spare the remainder of their lives, that they never would come to war again against them.

20 And it came to pass that Moroni caused that the work of death should cease again among the people. And he took the weapons of war from the Lamanites; and after they had entered into a covenant with him of peace they were suffered to depart into the wilderness.

[JohnnyL]

Preemptive strike: http://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com/ ... ve-strike/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More about Moroni's virtues: http://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com/ ... -by-grego/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com/ ... -by-grego/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Poltax]

Joneside........what I think he would have done is educate the people to understand the importance of the cause of freedom. Rally them all to the Title of Liberty. If they did not respond then in his words....Cause "insurrections" and "make them extinct". Those that needed an attitude adjustment would have been dealt with, or left behind depending on their attitudes. But that is what I think. In reality it really does not matter what I think, only what happened and what the record states. Moroni I am sure had to make hard choices, what all those were, none of us will know. I am sure that he made this with the guidance of the Spirit, & of fasting and prayer. We do know what he stated he would do. I do not think that he was someone that spoke lightly. I think he meant every word that the record states. They had the Lamanites to fight, the treasonous Nephite Kingman and those that supported them in secret.

I think its much like today. We are at a very interesting time in the history of our Country. We all have some tough choices to make. Do we roll with the status quo and continue to lose freedoms or do we stand up and be accounted and fight for freedom, & the Constitution. The lines are being very clearly drawn. Do you stand and risk all, or do you give in and say there is nothing we can do. One side of the other.

Many prophets have taught about fence setting. Your ether for good, or for evil. As the scriptures teach you can not serve two masters.

[Original_Intent]

Again, Poltax, you misrepresent or misunderstand who Captain Moroni was threatening to make extinct. In fact, reading the verses that you quoted (or rather misquoted) it seems abundantly clear that you are intentionally misleading? Why do this? Why intentionally lead others astray?

"... even until those who have desires to usurp power and authority shall become extinct."

Wow. The scripture spells out EXACTLY who Moroni is threatening, and yet you twist the scriptures and paraphrase to make them say what you want. You need to seriously consider what you are doing, this is GRAVE SIN. For you are not only sinning against yourself, you are sinning with the intent to mislead, and perverting the history of one of the greatest men of the Book of Mormon.

[jonesde]

Again, Poltax, you misrepresent or misunderstand who Captain Moroni was threatening to make extinct. In fact, reading the verses that you quoted (or rather misquoted) it seems abundantly clear that you are intentionally misleading? Why do this? Why intentionally lead others astray?

"... even until those who have desires to usurp power and authority shall become extinct."

Wow. The scripture spells out EXACTLY who Moroni is threatening, and yet you twist the scriptures and paraphrase to make them say what you want. You need to seriously consider what you are doing, this is GRAVE SIN. For you are not only sinning against yourself, you are sinning with the intent to mislead, and perverting the history of one of the greatest men of the Book of Mormon.

It's a shame isn't it, what great lengths some will go to trying to justify violence, as if there was no sin in it and that the only real sin is what fits in the narrow modern definition of "morality".

[gdemetz]

My favorite Book of Mormon character, the real captain America!

[Poltax]

Wow.....I return from vacation & it looks like you all want me in the woodshed or to stand in the corner. Captain Moroni was a man of God. I firmly believe that he received inspiration and prophecy during his leadership of the Nephite Armies. I also believe that he was raised up to be the warrior that he was. He was a firm and staunch believer of freedom and liberty. The Book of Mormon clearly shows what his thoughts on freedom were, & what stand & action he took. He was a beloved leader by his fellow soldiers. I also believe that many civilians also thought very highly of him.

I have tried to explain apparently not very effectively, that Moroni would squash any rebellion, and do what needed to be done to those that would stand in the way of freedom. I make no apologies for what I have stated. The Lord has his people do many things. Some of them pleasant and some not so pleasant. The Lord had the Old Testament Children of Israel wipe out entire cites. Cleansing everything. Is that suggesting that I am trying to justify violence. I dont think so. The Lord told the people to do it. They did it whether they liked it or not.

I do not believe for one minute that Captian Moroni enjoyed acts of violence. I am sure he spent many nights in tearful prayer in making the decisions that he made. However, as I stated above, he was a man of God & he was a warrior.

I read a book not to long ago about Pres Kimball's body guard. Its called "Body Guard to the Prophet", by Larry Mullins. He was hired by the Church to be the official body guard to Pres Kimball. Bro Mullins was a lifer military man. He had been groomed during years in the Military for just this job. He was sent to many schools, and put on many details that would prepare him for his calling in the Church. Not long after he was hired. Many in the Church upper echelons were not happy with the decision to have a hired body guard for the Prophet. Many stated that if the the Lord wanted the Prophet protected then the Lord would inspire the worthy Priesthood around the prophet to protect him if needed. Not long after Bro Mullins had heard this, he was in the car with the Pres Kimball. He asked Pres Kimball what his thoughts were on these statements. Pres Kimball responded with a smile..."the Holy Ghost cannot draw water from an empty well". Meaning if you do not have the knowledge and training , the Holy Ghost can not pull it out of you to do the job that is required.

I feel this is the same with Captain Moroni. He was the leader that the Nephites needed at the time. He had the mindset, training, and the Spirit with him. Does that mean that I use that to justify violence. No. All it means is that the Lord will prepare those that will do the job that needs to be done regardless if you, or I approve of it or not.

I do not feel the need to defend this any longer.

[marc]

Wow.....I return from vacation & it looks like you all want me in the woodshed or to stand in the corner. Captain Moroni was a man of God. I firmly believe that he received inspiration and prophecy during his leadership of the Nephite Armies. I also believe that he was raised up to be the warrior that he was. He was a firm and staunch believer of freedom and liberty. The Book of Mormon clearly shows what his thoughts on freedom were, & what stand & action he took. He was a beloved leader by his fellow soldiers. I also believe that many civilians also thought very highly of him.

I have tried to explain apparently not very effectively, that Moroni would squash any rebellion, and do what needed to be done to those that would stand in the way of freedom. I make no apologies for what I have stated. The Lord has his people do many things. Some of them pleasant and some not so pleasant. The Lord had the Old Testament Children of Israel wipe out entire cites. Cleansing everything. Is that suggesting that I am trying to justify violence. I dont think so. The Lord told the people to do it. They did it whether they liked it or not.

I do not believe for one minute that Captian Moroni enjoyed acts of violence. I am sure he spent many nights in tearful prayer in making the decisions that he made. However, as I stated above, he was a man of God & he was a warrior.

I read a book not to long ago about Pres Kimball's body guard. Its called "Body Guard to the Prophet", by Larry Mullins. He was hired by the Church to be the official body guard to Pres Kimball. Bro Mullins was a lifer military man. He had been groomed during years in the Military for just this job. He was sent to many schools, and put on many details that would prepare him for his calling in the Church. Not long after he was hired. Many in the Church upper echelons were not happy with the decision to have a hired body guard for the Prophet. Many stated that if the the Lord wanted the Prophet protected then the Lord would inspire the worthy Priesthood around the prophet to protect him if needed. Not long after Bro Mullins had heard this, he was in the car with the Pres Kimball. He asked Pres Kimball what his thoughts were on these statements. Pres Kimball responded with a smile..."the Holy Ghost cannot draw water from an empty well". Meaning if you do not have the knowledge and training , the Holy Ghost can not pull it out of you to do the job that is required.

I feel this is the same with Captain Moroni. He was the leader that the Nephites needed at the time. He had the mindset, training, and the Spirit with him. Does that mean that I use that to justify violence. No. All it means is that the Lord will prepare those that will do the job that needs to be done regardless if you, or I approve of it or not.

I do not feel the need to defend this any longer.

Well stated. Captain Moroni was a true patriot and a humble man of God. I remember reading in the BoM after his wars with Amalickiah and Ammoron, that many Nephites had returned home both hardened and many returned home softened. Much can be said of that too and it's only an after thought, but I have no doubt that Moroni returned home a humble man with his family and his son Moronihah continued that legacy.

[Liberty Bell]

Actually, Moroni did force people to fight. It was before when he was dealing with the kingmen. Those who refused to defend their country were put to death. They were also jailed without trial because there was no time for trials.

These actions were just to preserve the liberty of the country. Had Moroni been doing it to provide soldiers for preemptive war, it would have been immoral.

[jonesde]

Actually, Moroni did force people to fight. It was before when he was dealing with the kingmen. Those who refused to defend their country were put to death. They were also jailed without trial because there was no time for trials.

These actions were just to preserve the liberty of the country. Had Moroni been doing it to provide soldiers for preemptive war, it would have been immoral.

Even for defensive war it would be immoral, so fortunately he didn't do it.

I'd like to see your scriptural reference that says he did...

[marc]

Read Alma 46. This happened when Amalickiah and his followers dissented and prepared to mount a huge uprising. The people who were thus compelled were treasonous traitors who were brought back captive from Amalickiah's ranks. Keep in mind this happened just after a sore battle against Zarahemnah. Matter of fact, Study Alma chapters 43 through 62.

The scripture you are requesting:

28 And now it came to pass that when Moroni had said these words he went forth, and also sent forth in all the parts of the land where there were dissensions, and gathered together all the people who were desirous to maintain their liberty, to stand against Amalickiah and those who had dissented, who were called Amalickiahites.

29 And it came to pass that when Amalickiah saw that the people of Moroni were more numerous than the Amalickiahites—and he also saw that his people were doubtful concerning the justice of the cause in which they had undertaken—therefore, fearing that he should not gain the point, he took those of his people who would and departed into the land of Nephi.

30 Now Moroni thought it was not expedient that the Lamanites should have any more strength; therefore he thought to cut off the people of Amalickiah, or to take them and bring them back, and put Amalickiah to death; yea, for he knew that he would stir up the Lamanites to anger against them, and cause them to come to battle against them; and this he knew that Amalickiah would do that he might obtain his purposes.

31 Therefore Moroni thought it was expedient that he should take his armies, who had gathered themselves together, and armed themselves, and entered into a covenant to keep the peace—and it came to pass that he took his army and marched out with his tents into the wilderness, to cut off the course of Amalickiah in the wilderness.

32 And it came to pass that he did according to his desires, and marched forth into the wilderness, and headed the armies of Amalickiah.

33 And it came to pass that Amalickiah fled with a small number of his men, and the remainder were delivered up into the hands of Moroni and were taken back into the land of Zarahemla.

34 Now, Moroni being a man who was appointed by the chief judges and the voice of the people, therefore he had power according to his will with the armies of the Nephites, to establish and to exercise authority over them.

35 And it came to pass that whomsoever of the Amalickiahites that would not enter into a covenant to support the cause of freedom, that they might maintain a free government, he caused to be put to death; and there were but few who denied the covenant of freedom.

36 And it came to pass also, that he caused the title of liberty to be hoisted upon every tower which was in all the land, which was possessed by the Nephites; and thus Moroni planted the standard of liberty among the Nephites.

37 And they began to have peace again in the land; and thus they did maintain peace in the land until nearly the end of the nineteenth year of the reign of the judges.

[marc]

In verse 33 we read that Amalickiah abandons his army, which consisted of all his lackeys. He took his servants with him and of course, Ammoron his brother, no doubt his second in command. These two master planners fled to the Lamanites where they could muster up a greater army of more lackeys that he could sacrifice like worthless pawns. He was a cunning conspirator and strategist. He was equally cunning as Moroni, but on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Honestly there really is no point in hen pecking a few points of scripture if one doesn't truly understand the politics of the land and the sheer corruption in the land at this time. And anyone who doesn't understand this will not understand that the exact thing is happening today in the US and around the globe. President Ezra Taft Benson said, "...the Book of Mormon exposes the enemies of Christ. It confounds false doctrines and lays down contention. (See 2 Ne. 3:12.) It fortifies the humble followers of Christ against the evil designs, strategies, and doctrines of the devil in our day. The type of apostates in the Book of Mormon are similar to the type we have today. God, with his infinite foreknowledge, so molded the Book of Mormon that we might see the error and know how to combat false educational, political, religious, and philosophical concepts of our time."

[marc]

One last thing to keep in mind. When Ammon and his brethren preached the gospel for 14 years among the Lamanites, they brought back all those good, righteous converts back to Zarahemla. This left the land of Nephi and those Lamanite lands with the most hardened and wicked Lamanites. Moroni understood this and we learn just how Amaleckiah was able to manipulate them and his way to being their king, not only the king of the land of Nephi, but the entire Lamanite country. Add to that the constant threat of extinction of the Nephites who only desired liberty and peace.

45 Nevertheless, the Nephites were inspired by a better cause, for they were not fighting for monarchy nor power but they were fighting for their homes and their liberties, their wives and their children, and their all, yea, for their rites of worship and their church.

46 And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God; for the Lord had said unto them, and also unto their fathers, that: Inasmuch as ye are not guilty of the first offense, neither the second, ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies.

47 And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion.

[jonesde]

In verse 33 we read that Amalickiah abandons his army, which consisted of all his lackeys. He took his servants with him and of course, Ammoron his brother, no doubt his second in command. These two master planners fled to the Lamanites where they could muster up a greater army of more lackeys that he could sacrifice like worthless pawns. He was a cunning conspirator and strategist. He was equally cunning as Moroni, but on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Honestly there really is no point in hen pecking a few points of scripture if one doesn't truly understand the politics of the land and the sheer corruption in the land at this time. And anyone who doesn't understand this will not understand that the exact thing is happening today in the US and around the globe. President Ezra Taft Benson said, "...the Book of Mormon exposes the enemies of Christ. It confounds false doctrines and lays down contention. (See 2 Ne. 3:12.) It fortifies the humble followers of Christ against the evil designs, strategies, and doctrines of the devil in our day. The type of apostates in the Book of Mormon are similar to the type we have today. God, with his infinite foreknowledge, so molded the Book of Mormon that we might see the error and know how to combat false educational, political, religious, and philosophical concepts of our time."

And anyone with an understanding of the politics and circumstances, as presented in the account in the Book of Mormon itself, would know that Captain Moroni was not compelling the unwilling as so many would like to believe in order to justify modern wickedness, but rather he was combating traitors.

You even stated this in your reply. Because of this mixed message, I'm not sure if I understanding your meaning. Are you agreeing with Poltax and others that Captain Moroni used violence and threats of violence to compel people to fight who were unwilling?

I do not see a single hint of that in the scriptures you quoted.