A Wild Man Hath Come Among US

[awake]

People here think I am a big stick in the mud because I continue to advocate sticking with the recognized church authorities and staying in the safety of the recognized church and Priesthood organization. (D&C 42:11)

The reason I do is because I have seen first hand how easily it is for someone to be deceived by alternative voices out there as a result of becoming a law unto themselves and leaving the safety of the 3 pronged approach of Prophets, scriptures, and the Holy Spirit all unified in purpose in order to go it alone because they felt their inspiration was superior to what was advocated by the living Prophets or the Scriptures together.

Just because many, if not most people may be easily deceived by 'false' revelation and misinterpretation of the scriptures, to go off into forbidden paths, that does not mean that we should not still rely on the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures above all other voices on earth.

For I believe that it's possible for even Prophets to fall and lead us astray.

So as Joseph Smith taught, the scriptures and the Holy Spirit always trump 'all' other authority, even modern prophets. We just need to be absolutely sure we are being led by the 'right' spirit and that is the tricky part. But there is no safety in anyone or anything else.

[gr8ideas]

+1 Awake

[bobhenstra]

We have an iron clad promise that our Prophet cannot lead us astray, he'll be removed from mortality should he try. Were I to fail the Spirit over some important matter, I'd watch my prophet, if he raised his hand to sustain anything, I would sustain and at the same time support him by raising my hand.

Bob

[awake]

We have an iron clad promise that our Prophet cannot lead us astray, he'll be removed from mortality should he try. Were I to fail the Spirit over some important matter, I'd watch my prophet, if he raised his hand to sustain anything, I would sustain and at the same time support him by raising my hand.

Bob

I'm sorry, but that opinion given by some leaders is not based upon the scriptures and in fact contradicts scripture (D&C 107), so that opinion appears to prove itself false.

[HeirofNumenor]

We have an iron clad promise that our Prophet cannot lead us astray, he'll be removed from mortality should he try. Were I to fail the Spirit over some important matter, I'd watch my prophet, if he raised his hand to sustain anything, I would sustain and at the same time support him by raising my hand.

Bob

I'm sorry, but that opinion given by some leaders is not based upon the scriptures and in fact contradicts scripture (D&C 107), so that opinion appears to prove itself false.

Let's examine - has this happened before, where God took out a prophet/leader who was leading the people astray/failing in his calling?

Three examples of where this POSSIBLY occurred:
1) OT- Balaam

Balaam. A prophet from Pethor by the Euphrates, bribed by Balak, king of Moab, to curse the Israelites, Num. 22:5 ff.; his life saved by means of the @#$, 22:22 ff.; the curse turned to blessing, 23; 24; Deut. 23:4–5; Josh. 24:9–10; Neh. 13:2; his counsel, Num. 31:16; slain, 31:8; Josh. 13:22; Micah 6:5; 2 Pet. 2:15; Jude 1:11; Rev. 2:14.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/balaam ... g&letter=b


2) OT - Eli.

Eli. High priest and judge, a descendant of Aaron through Ithamar, his younger son. He was probably the first high priest of this line, and the office remained in his family till the deprivation of Abiathar (1 Kgs. 2:26–27), when it passed back to the family of Eleazar, Aaron’s eldest son. He is chiefly known to us through his connection with the early history of Samuel (1 Sam. 1–4). The blot on his character was his toleration of the wickedness of his own sons.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/eli-1? ... g&letter=e

1 Samuel 4 (chapter heading)
The Israelites are smitten and defeated by the Philistines, who also capture the ark of God—Eli’s sons are slain, Eli dies in an accident [leans back in his chair, breaks his neck], and his daughter-in-law dies in childbirth.

Eli replaced by Samuel.



3) NOT MY BELIEF, but should one really want to play Devil's Advocate, I suppose a case could be made that this happened to both Joseph & Hyrum Smith.

-Sec 132 is the last RECORDED revelation by Joseph Smith that we have in the D&C (Sec 133 was written earlier, but previously in the Appendix to ORIGINAL D&C; while the revelation for 132 was received years earlier, it wasn't written down until 1843).
-I recall reading an article in Salt Lake City magazine in Spring/Summer 2005-06, about polygamy. In that article, someone's diary from the Nauvoo period was quoted, wherein Joseph Smith ran across the street one night to the journal-keeper being quoted. He was distraught and frantic, and (supposedly) said: " My soul is lost - I have been deceived" (regarding polygamy). NOTE: I automatically rejected this quote as false, given how Salt Lake City magazine loves to run articles that are highly critical of LDS Church and Utah culture.
-Joseph Smith (supposedly) didn't want Sidney Rigdon for a member of the First Presidency, but the members insisted on that .
-Sidney Rigdon proposed John C Bennett to be a member of the First Presidency. Joseph didn't know anything of Bennett's background, sins, or crimes (Rigdon may not have either).
-Bennett convinced Joseph to form a Masonic Lodge, and get the lodge built quickly, so to secure the help of the state lodge. This delayed building the Nauvoo Temple [sec 124 condemnation, anyone?]
-Bennett began a series of adulterous affairs, claiming spiritual wifery, or that what he did was no different than Joseph Smith's polygamy.
-Joseph denounced Bennett, excommunicated him, ran him out of Navuoo. Bennett commenced to produce a series of inflammatory news articles, exposing the "barbarous practice rampant among Joe Smith's followers, that abuser of women" [quotes are my emphasis of the scandalous tone]
-The Nauvoo Expositer ran these articles, seeking to persecute Joseph Smith & the Saints. As mayor of Nauvoo, Joseph ordered the printing press be destroyed as a disturbance of the peace/incitement to riot.
-Destruction of the printing press is usually the pre-eminent claim for arresting Joseph & Hyrum, and jailing them in Carthage.
-Joseph and Hyrum are slaughtered in Carthage Jail, sealing their testimonies with their blood as martyrs.

Were Joseph and Hyrum killed/allowed to be killed by God because of introducing polygamy per sec. 132, in contradiction of Jacob 2?
I don't think so - but there appears precedent that God has caused others to die who failed him, and this sequence does appear plausible...

Maybe Joseph's fault was simply not going with his gut and rejecting Ridgon to begin with.
What is clear is that Joseph and Hyrum were killed particularly because of polygamy (chain of events/causation), as well as because of the Gospel overall.

[ithink]

3) NOT MY BELIEF, but should one really want to play Devil's Advocate, I suppose a case could be made that this happened to both Joseph & Hyrum Smith.

This is actually my belief. I shared it with a former bishop who was visiting my ward, who is having trouble with his testimony viz. all the stuff going on, and based on my comments in HP group he knew he could speak to me afterward and privily and trust in me.

[Gad]

Nauvoo stake president William Marks suggested in 1853 that Smith came to have doubts about polygamy before his death:

When the doctrine of polygamy was introduced into the church as a principle of exaltation, I took a decided stand against it; which stand rendered me quite unpopular with many of the leading ones of the church … Joseph, however, became convinced before his death that he had done wrong; for about three weeks before his death, I met him one morning in the street, and he said to me, “Brother Marks … We are a ruined people.” I asked, how so? he said: “This doctrine of polygamy, or Spiritual-wife system, that has been taught and practiced among us, will prove our destruction and overthrow. I have been deceived,” said he, “in reference to its practice; it is wrong; it is a curse to mankind, and we shall have to leave the United States soon, unless it can be put down and its practice stopped in the church.”

This is the quote in question. From this link. http://signaturebooks.com/2010/11/excer ... oneliness/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[awake]

'IF' Joseph started polygamy, and it was wrong, and he was taken because of it, then why were no other leaders after him taken?

[HeirofNumenor]

Nauvoo stake president William Marks suggested in 1853 that Smith came to have doubts about polygamy before his death:

When the doctrine of polygamy was introduced into the church as a principle of exaltation, I took a decided stand against it; which stand rendered me quite unpopular with many of the leading ones of the church … Joseph, however, became convinced before his death that he had done wrong; for about three weeks before his death, I met him one morning in the street, and he said to me, “Brother Marks … We are a ruined people.” I asked, how so? he said: “This doctrine of polygamy, or Spiritual-wife system, that has been taught and practiced among us, will prove our destruction and overthrow. I have been deceived,” said he, “in reference to its practice; it is wrong; it is a curse to mankind, and we shall have to leave the United States soon, unless it can be put down and its practice stopped in the church.”

This is the quote in question. From this link. http://signaturebooks.com/2010/11/excer ... oneliness/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you - This was the one I read. This quote (as presented here) I actually find somewhat credible - particularly because it wasn't written down 10-50 years later...

[HeirofNumenor]

'IF' Joseph started polygamy, and it was wrong, and he was taken because of it, then why were no other leaders after him taken?

No idea. Maybe the overall Restoration of the Gospel was too important to wipe out all the leaders....therefore, the Lord used it & Federal persecution as a test...until such time as the members were ready to let it go...thus He gave Pres. Woodruff the revelation leading to the 1890 Manifesto...and when the people and many high leaders still refused to end it completely, the persecution resumed with the Reed Smoot hearings, until 1904, when Joseph F. Smith et al issued the Second Manifesto - mandating excommunication.

[HeirofNumenor]

Nauvoo stake president William Marks suggested in 1853 that Smith came to have doubts about polygamy before his death:

When the doctrine of polygamy was introduced into the church as a principle of exaltation, I took a decided stand against it; which stand rendered me quite unpopular with many of the leading ones of the church … Joseph, however, became convinced before his death that he had done wrong; for about three weeks before his death, I met him one morning in the street, and he said to me, “Brother Marks … We are a ruined people.” I asked, how so? he said: “This doctrine of polygamy, or Spiritual-wife system, that has been taught and practiced among us, will prove our destruction and overthrow. I have been deceived,” said he, “in reference to its practice; it is wrong; it is a curse to mankind, and we shall have to leave the United States soon, unless it can be put down and its practice stopped in the church.”

This is the quote in question. From this link. http://signaturebooks.com/2010/11/excer ... oneliness/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But then we have to reconcile this possibility with how Brigham Young, Heber C Kimball, etc. (in Nauvoo period) and their wives received personal revelation/spiritual confirmation that they were to engage in polygamy upon Joseph's instructions/invitation.

So many unanswered questions all around....we may just have to wait for the Millennium before we get the complete answers...

[gdemetz]

I personally believe that he misquoted Joseph Smith that many years later! I think it was greatly exaggerated. That doesn't wash will all the statements and practices of the later prophets.

[HeirofNumenor]

I personally believe that he misquoted Joseph Smith that many years later! I think it was greatly exaggerated. That doesn't wash will all the statements and practices of the later prophets.

Perhaps he was misquoted. Perhaps his own opposition to polygamy was misplaced and it led to him later making this (possibly false) statement.

But please consider this:
Several on this forum seem to feel the Church leadership for the last 100+ years have been wrong on various issues (Lord will never let Prophet lead Church astray, abandoning Adam-God, abandoning polygamy, corporation of the Church, making Word of Wisdom a commandment, etc). They claim that basically, our prophets and apostles are only following a (wrong) precedent.
The question that needs to be asked then is this: If 20th century Church leaders can be in error by following wrong precedent, why can't 19th century leaders likewise be in error by following an earlier but wrong precedent? Heck, we know one precedent was finally stopped in 1978.

My personal feeling is that I would like to see a synthesis with which EVERYONE can be happy, that shows how prophets & apostles from BOTH eras could have been right for their times - i.e., the Lord gave different instructions for different circumstances.

I feel D&C 132 is true - I believe Joseph asked God to explain polygamy, and then God required Joseph Smith to live it. I'm not sure how it came to be required to live polygamy in order to achieve exaltation - if it ever was, nor do I believe that is what sec 132 meant by Celestial Marriage (sec 131, sec 132: 19-20 (see vv.1-20))

However, I cannot find a satisfactory explanation of how sec 132 approves of David & Solomon having lots of wives, while Jacob 2 condemns those two by name. For those people here declaring that a prophet is wrong if his teachings contradict earlier scripture - this apparent contradiction must take the cake.

[reese]

I personally believe that he misquoted Joseph Smith that many years later! I think it was greatly exaggerated. That doesn't wash will all the statements and practices of the later prophets.

Perhaps he was misquoted. Perhaps his own opposition to polygamy was misplaced and it led to him later making this (possibly false) statement.

But please consider this:
Several on this forum seem to feel the Church leadership for the last 100+ years have been wrong on various issues (Lord will never let Prophet lead Church astray, abandoning Adam-God, abandoning polygamy, corporation of the Church, making Word of Wisdom a commandment, etc). They claim that basically, our prophets and apostles are only following a (wrong) precedent.
The question that needs to be asked then is this: If 20th century Church leaders can be in error by following wrong precedent, why can't 19th century leaders likewise be in error by following an earlier but wrong precedent? Heck, we know one precedent was finally stopped in 1978.

So where exactly does this leave us? The Lord will DEFINITELY let his people use their agency to "follow a wrong precedent". Here is the most recent staement by the church concerning the precendent that was stopped in 1978:
"The origins of priesthood availability are not entirely clear. Some explanations with respect to this matter were made in the absence of direct revelation and references to these explanations are sometimes cited in publications. These previous personal statements do not represent Church doctrine."

How does this kind of statement get approved as a public statement by the church? Can a "revelator" speak (as did Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and many others in the first presidency and twelve) about this crucial matter for over a hundred years "in the absence of revelation?" How, if this critical issue involving the personal lives of so many faithful church members for generations was wrong and did not represent church doctrine, can we now trust that anything that is said by anyone on any topic represents church doctrine? There were faithful Saints kept out of the temple because of this doctrine. There were heartwrenching discoveries of genealogy issues for people who were previously ordained who were told they could no longer use their ordination to serve in the church. They were turned down because these men at the highest levels were acting "in the absence of revelation?" Why?

However, I cannot find a satisfactory explanation of how sec 132 approves of David & Solomon having lots of wives, while Jacob 2 condemns those two by name. For those people here declaring that a prophet is wrong if his teachings contradict earlier scripture - this apparent contradiction must take the cake.Your right it does take the cake. Here are the two conflicting scriptures

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

[Rob]

We have an iron clad promise that our Prophet cannot lead us astray, he'll be removed from mortality should he try. Were I to fail the Spirit over some important matter, I'd watch my prophet, if he raised his hand to sustain anything, I would sustain and at the same time support him by raising my hand.

Bob

I'm sorry, but that opinion given by some leaders is not based upon the scriptures and in fact contradicts scripture (D&C 107), so that opinion appears to prove itself false.

The FP have told us not to blindly sustain them, asking us instead to confirm everything they say. I don't understand those who say they sustain their leaders, yet fail to make that distinction. As has been stated many times, we don't have papal infallibility. When I first joined this forum, I got into a debate with Charity (don't remember her username off the top of my head) about whether or not President Monson knew the truth about 9/11. She came back with some cryptic, non-committal nonsense like "he knows more than we do", or some such she has no idea about. My response was he was a man and might not know anything about it.


Take President Faust, for example. He said this while a member of the FP:

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... -it-for-me

On September 11, 2001, the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City were hit by terrorist-controlled airliners that caused both towers to collapse.

See that? He was wrong. Airliners didn't cause the collapse. They were a diversion. You go ahead and comfort yourselves with the "speaking as a man" thing, but, guess what, folks, they're men, period. How many people have had the wrong conclusion confirmed to them by this erroneous statement because they sustain him as an infallible mouthpiece of the Lord?

Arm of flesh, folks. They've said so themselves. Everything must be confirmed by the Spirit.

[reese]

Arm of flesh, folks. They've said so themselves. Everything must be confirmed by the Spirit.

Well the Lord did say that only those who have taken the holy spirit as their guide, can be the ones who are not deceived.

[Mark]

I personally believe that he misquoted Joseph Smith that many years later! I think it was greatly exaggerated. That doesn't wash will all the statements and practices of the later prophets.

Perhaps he was misquoted. Perhaps his own opposition to polygamy was misplaced and it led to him later making this (possibly false) statement.

But please consider this:
Several on this forum seem to feel the Church leadership for the last 100+ years have been wrong on various issues (Lord will never let Prophet lead Church astray, abandoning Adam-God, abandoning polygamy, corporation of the Church, making Word of Wisdom a commandment, etc). They claim that basically, our prophets and apostles are only following a (wrong) precedent.
The question that needs to be asked then is this: If 20th century Church leaders can be in error by following wrong precedent, why can't 19th century leaders likewise be in error by following an earlier but wrong precedent? Heck, we know one precedent was finally stopped in 1978.

My personal feeling is that I would like to see a synthesis with which EVERYONE can be happy, that shows how prophets & apostles from BOTH eras could have been right for their times - i.e., the Lord gave different instructions for different circumstances.

I feel D&C 132 is true - I believe Joseph asked God to explain polygamy, and then God required Joseph Smith to live it. I'm not sure how it came to be required to live polygamy in order to achieve exaltation - if it ever was, nor do I believe that is what sec 132 meant by Celestial Marriage (sec 131, sec 132: 19-20 (see vv.1-20))

However, I cannot find a satisfactory explanation of how sec 132 approves of David & Solomon having lots of wives, while Jacob 2 condemns those two by name. For those people here declaring that a prophet is wrong if his teachings contradict earlier scripture - this apparent contradiction must take the cake.

If I may let me take a stab at Jacob 2 Bro. I think you might not be taking this verse in its full and proper context. If you look back at the verses just prior to this one you will notice that the Lord is very displeased with those Nephite people who were using David and Solomon to justify committing whoredoms. In other words they were not sanctioned by the Lord to live plural marriage but were just a bunch of whore mongers living in sin.

That "thing" referenced in verse 23 and 24 of using David or Solomon as justification of their immoral behavior was what the Lord said was abominable before him. I know the wording in verse 24 is tricky but if you believe the Lord in verse 38 of section 132 this would be the only explanation to the confusion in Jacob 2.

The Nephites did not receive a command from the Lord to practice plurality of wives at Jacobs time so they were living under gross sin of immoral behavior. Abraham and Moses and David and Solomon did receive such a command so they were justified in doing so by the Lord. Does this make any sense to you?

[ithink]

'IF' Joseph started polygamy, and it was wrong, and he was taken because of it, then why were no other leaders after him taken?

I think it is because they love to have it so. Read this stuff from Jeremiah, then consider how we are to liken scriptures to ourselves. Consider the parallels between each and every lost civilization and failed church. Consider how verse 31 compares to our current "prophet will never lead the people astray" in light of Brother Marks journal entry. Keep in mind that Marks would be the man to have convened a court to deal with these issues and bring up even the Apostles on charges. Apparently the quotation is accurate, since Joseph later counseled Marks that he would have to do what needed to be done -- no matter how hard it would be.

Now look at Jeremiah if you will:

25 ¶Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withholden good things from you.
26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.
27 As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.
28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.
29 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the Lord: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?
30 ¶A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

...

For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. ...18 ¶Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.
19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.
20 To what purpose cometh there to me incense from Sheba, and the sweet cane from a far country? your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me.
21 Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will lay stumblingblocks before this people, and the fathers and the sons together shall fall upon them; the neighbour and his friend shall perish.
22 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth.
23 They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion.
24 We have heard the fame thereof: our hands wax feeble: anguish hath taken hold of us, and pain, as of a woman in travail.
25 Go not forth into the field, nor walk by the way; for the sword of the enemy and fear is on every side.

What worries me is verses 22 to 25. And all because "my people love to have it so".

[Mark]

'IF' Joseph started polygamy, and it was wrong, and he was taken because of it, then why were no other leaders after him taken?

I think it is because they love to have it so. Read this stuff from Jeremiah, then consider how we are to liken scriptures to ourselves. Consider the parallels between each and every lost civilization and failed church. Consider how verse 31 compares to our current "prophet will never lead the people astray" in light of Brother Marks journal entry. Keep in mind that Marks would be the man to have convened a court to deal with these issues and bring up even the Apostles on charges. Apparently the quotation is accurate, since Joseph later counseled Marks that he would have to do what needed to be done -- no matter how hard it would be.

Now look at Jeremiah if you will:

25 ¶Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withholden good things from you.
26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.
27 As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.
28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.
29 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the Lord: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?
30 ¶A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

...

For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. ...18 ¶Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.
19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.
20 To what purpose cometh there to me incense from Sheba, and the sweet cane from a far country? your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me.
21 Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will lay stumblingblocks before this people, and the fathers and the sons together shall fall upon them; the neighbour and his friend shall perish.
22 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth.
23 They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion.
24 We have heard the fame thereof: our hands wax feeble: anguish hath taken hold of us, and pain, as of a woman in travail.
25 Go not forth into the field, nor walk by the way; for the sword of the enemy and fear is on every side.

What worries me is verses 22 to 25. And all because "my people love to have it so".

Considering your ongoing diatribes and innuendo's aimed at the latter day church and its Prophets I would be considering the parallels of verse 26 long and hard if I were you ithink. You seek to destroy faith in this latter day work of the Lord because of your disgruntlement for whatever reason. Anyone who doesn't see your intent clearly is walking in darkness at noonday. :ymsigh:

[ithink]

Considering your ongoing diatribes and innuendo's aimed at the latter day church and its Prophets I would be considering the parallels of verse 26 long and hard if I were you ithink. You seek to destroy faith in this latter day work of the Lord because of your disgruntlement for whatever reason. Anyone who doesn't see your intent clearly is walking in darkness at noonday. :ymsigh:

Innuendo? I thought it was clearer than that. I quoted Jeremiah and likened it to ourselves, as we should. And you have a problem with that? Yes you do, because Mark, like Ancient Israel, "loves to have it so". I, like William Marks, do not agree with everything that the prophets say or do, especially when it contradicts the truth.

The lesson to be learned that you love not to, is that nobody is infallible except Jesus Christ. NOBODY. You once again fail to address anything I have said, and you take direct aim at me, the messenger, which btw, is exactly the pattern followed by the wicked when confronted by the bearer of the truth. And anyone who can't see that, is walking in darkness at noon day.

[awake]

However, I cannot find a satisfactory explanation of how sec 132 approves of David & Solomon having lots of wives, while Jacob 2 condemns those two by name. For those people here declaring that a prophet is wrong if his teachings contradict earlier scripture - this apparent contradiction must take the cake.

It definitely does. For I believe that Jacob 2 and many other scriptures, including those in the D&C, clearly condemns polygamy in all cases, not only David and Solomon's but the polygamy going on in the land of Jerusalem and "in all the lands of my people (2:31)."

Brigham Young's teachings on polygamy and section 132 that he added later, did teach contrary to what all the scriptures taught, especially the scriptures Joseph Smith gave us. Also, Brigham Young's teachings were also contrary to everything Joseph Smith publicly taught the Church his whole life about polygamy in all Joseph's numerous 'public' statements that he published and that we can prove, which continually and repeatedly condemned polygamy and warned the Saints in the strongest way to not believe in it or the rumors going around that he was living it secretly.

I will give the references to many of Joseph Smith's teachings against polygamy in my next post.

Also from William Mark's statement, it seems that Joseph Smith did not believe in or live polygamy, or else Joseph would have had to excommunicate himself.

Here is the rest of the quote from William Marks:

"When the doctrine of polygamy was introduced into the church as a principle of exaltation, I took a decided stand against it; which stand rendered me quite unpopular with many of the leading ones of the church … Joseph, however, became convinced before his death that he had done wrong; for about three weeks before his death, I met him one morning in the street, and he said to me, “Brother Marks … We are a ruined people.” I asked, how so? he said: “This doctrine of polygamy, or Spiritual-wife system, that has been taught and practiced among us, will prove our destruction and overthrow. I have been deceived,” said he, “in reference to its practice; it is wrong; it is a curse to mankind, and we shall have to leave the United States soon, unless it can be put down and its practice stopped in the church.
Now Brother Marks, you have not received this doctrine, and I want you to go into the high council and I will have charges preferred against all who practice this doctrine, and I want you to try them by the laws of the Church, and cut them off, if they will not repent, and cease the practice of this doctrine... I will go into the stand and preach against it with a my might, and in this way, we may rid the Church of this damnable heresy."

William Marks, Zion's Harbinger and Baneemy's Organ, Vol. 3:52-53, July 1853.

Also William Marks gave another similar statement a few years later that gives more insight to what probably happened:

"About the first of June, 1844, (situated as I was at the time, being Presiding Elder of the Stake at Nauvoo, and by appointment the Presiding officer of the High Council), I had a very good opportunity to know the affairs of the Church and my convictions at the time were that the Church in a great measure had departed from the pure principles and doctrines of Jesus Christ... I met with Brother Joseph. He said that he wanted to converse with me on the affairs of the Church, and we retired by ourselves. I will give his words verbatim, for they are indelibly stamped upon my mind. He said he had desired for a long time to have a talk with me on the subject of polygamy. He said it eventually would prove the overthrow of the Church, and we should soon be obliged to leave the United States, unless it could be speedily put down. He was satisfied that it was a cursed doctrine, and that there must be every exertion made to put it down. He said that he would go before the congregation and proclaim against it, and I must go into the High Council, and he would prefer charges against those in trangression, and I must sever them from the Church, unless they made ample satisfaction. There was much more said, but this was the substance. The mob commenced to gather about Carthage in a few days after, therefore there was nothing done concerning it.
After the Prophet's death, I made mention of this conversation to several, hoping and believing that it would have a good effect; but to my great disappointment, it was soon rumored about that Brother Marks was about to apostatize, and that all that he said about the conversation with the Prophet was a tissue of lies."
William Marks, Nauvoo Stake Pres., True Latter Days Saints Herald, Oct. 23,1859, 25-26.

[Gad]

If the Lord kills prophets who are about to lead the church astray and if Bro Marks is correct that J.S. was about to lead the church OUT of polygamy, what does that say about J.S's murder?

[awake]

If the Lord kills prophets who are about to lead the church astray and if Bro Marks is correct that J.S. was about to lead the church OUT of polygamy, what does that say about J.S's murder?

It does not seem that the Lord wanted Joseph Smith killed, but instead it appears the people lost their prophet, because the Lord 'allowed' Joseph to be killed, because the Saints would not listen to his warnings about polygamy and to not fall for it.

[Mark]

Considering your ongoing diatribes and innuendo's aimed at the latter day church and its Prophets I would be considering the parallels of verse 26 long and hard if I were you ithink. You seek to destroy faith in this latter day work of the Lord because of your disgruntlement for whatever reason. Anyone who doesn't see your intent clearly is walking in darkness at noonday. :ymsigh:

Innuendo? I thought it was clearer than that. I quoted Jeremiah and likened it to ourselves, as we should. And you have a problem with that? Yes you do, because Mark, like Ancient Israel, "loves to have it so". I, like William Marks, do not agree with everything that the prophets say or do, especially when it contradicts the truth.

The lesson to be learned that you love not to, is that nobody is infallible except Jesus Christ. NOBODY. You once again fail to address anything I have said, and you take direct aim at me, the messenger, which btw, is exactly the pattern followed by the wicked when confronted by the bearer of the truth. And anyone who can't see that, is walking in darkness at noon day.

You are always so anxious to agree with anything or anyone that puts the latter day church and its leaders in a compromised apostate leaning state ithink.

If William Marks puts Josephs integrity on trial in some journal entry you are more than happy to believe Marks words and not put into question his own integrity or honesty. That is your pattern here. Has been for years.

Anything that degrades or calls into question the church's stance with the Lord or its leadership is taken as legitimate. I don't remember the last time you ever said anything positive or complimentary about the church in its state today. Or the current Prophets for that matter.

You love to just sit up in your ivory tower and throw stones at the work. Always critical of what the current body of Saints or the leadership are doing. That just seems to be your nature.

It is obviously that you have some kind of axe to grind with the church today but that doesn't mean people like me have no right to call you on it. I am sorry you seem to feel that the church has gone astray and is in an apostate state currently but I don't happen to agree with you on that so I will continue to tell you up front that I think you are misleading people in a very negative and faith destroying way by continuing the path you have chosen to take. I hope you will repent and turn back in faith to this latter day work.

[awake]

Here are some of the many public teachings and quotes by Joseph Smith about polygamy that appear to back up William Marks statement, that we can at least prove Joseph published while he was alive.

I cannot find any published and proven testimony by Joseph in favor of polygamy that he left for us, only his many statements against it.



"It is lawful that he should have 'one' wife."
D&C49:16

"Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart and shalt cleave unto her and none else."
D&C 42:22

“I have constantly said no man shall have but one wife at a time.” Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 324.

“The law of the land & the rules of the Church do not allow one man to have more than one wife alive at once.” Times & Seasons 5:715, Nov. 15, 1844.

“Inasmuch as the public mind has been unjustly abused through the fallacy of Dr. Bennett’s letters, we make an extract on the subject of marriage, showing the rule of the church on this important matter. The extract is from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and is the only rule allowed by the Church. "Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy; we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.” Joseph Smith, Times & Seasons 3:909, Sept. 1, 1842. D&C 101 - 1835 edition.

In early 1842 rumors circulated that certain unnamed men had debauched the innocent stating they had authority from church leaders. "A knowledge of some such things have come to our ears. We improve this favorable opportunity, wherein so goodly a number of you may be informed that no such authority ever has, ever can, or ever will be given to any man, and if any man has been guilty of any such thing, let him be treated with utter contempt, and let the curse of God fall on his head, and let him be turned out of Society as unworthy of a place among men, and denounced as the blackest and the most unprincipled wretch; and finally let him be damned!
We have been informed that some unprincipled men, whose names we will not mention at present, have been guilty of such crimes...Suffice it to say, there are those, and we therefore warn you, and forewarn you, in the name of the Lord, to check and destroy any faith that any innocent person may have in any such character; for we do not want any one to believe any thing as coming from us, contrary to the old established morals and virtues and scriptural laws, regulating the habits, customs and conduct of society, and all persons pretending to be authorized by us, or having any permit, or sanction from us, are and will be liars and base impostors, and you are authorized on the very first intimation of the kind, to denounce them as such, and shun them as the flying fiery serpent, whether they are prophets, Seers, or revelators; Patriarchs, twelve Apostles, Elders, Priests, Mayors, Generals, City Councilors, Aldermen, Marshalls, Police, Lord Mayors, or the Devil, are alike culpable and shall be damned for such evil practices; and if you yourselves adhere to anything of the kind, you also shall be damned."
Joseph Smith, Epistle prepared for the Sisters, recorded on Sept. 28, 1842 mtg. Read in Relief Society March 30, 1844.

ON MARRIAGE. “According to the custom of all civilized nations, marriage is regulated by laws and ceremonies: therefore we believe, that all marriages in this church of Christ of Latter Day Saints, should be solemnized IN A PUBLIC MEETING, or feast, prepared for that purpose; and that the solemnization should be performed by a presiding high priest, high priest, bishop, elder, or priest, not even prohibiting those persons who are desirous to get married, of being married by other authority. We believe that it is not right to prohibit members of this church from marrying out of the church, if it be their determination so to do, but such persons will be considered weak in the faith of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Marriage should be celebrated with prayer and thanksgiving; and at the solemnization, the persons to be married, STANDING TOGETHER, the man on the right, and the woman on the left, shall be addressed, by the person officiating, as he shall be directed by the holy spirit; and if there be no legal objections, he shall say, calling each other by their names: “YOU BOTH MUTUALLY AGREE TO BE EACH OTHER’S COMPANION, HUSBAND AND WIFE, OBSERVING THE LEGAL RIGHTS BELONGING TO THIS CONDITION; THAT IS, KEEPING YOURSELVES WHOLLY FOR EACH OTHER, AND FROM ALL OTHERS, DURING YOUR LIVES.” And when they have answered “YES”, he shall pronounce them “HUSBAND AND WIFE” in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by virtue of the laws of the country and authority vested in him: “MAY GOD ADD HIS BLESSINGS AND KEEP YOU TO FULFILL YOUR COVENANTS FROM HENCEFORTH AND FOREVER. AMEN.” The clerk of every church should keep a record of all marriages, solemnized in his branch. All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptized into this church, should be held sacred & fulfilled. INASMUCH AS THIS CHURCH OF CHRIST HAS BEEN REPROACHED WITH THE CRIME OF FORNICATION, & POLYGAMY: WE DECLARE THAT WE BELIEVE, THAT ONE MAN SHOULD HAVE ONE WIFE; & ONE WOMAN, BUT ONE HUSBAND, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again. It is not right to persuade a woman to be baptized contrary to the will of her husband, neither is it lawful to influence her to leave her husband. All children are bound by law to obey their parents; & to influence them to embrace any religious faith, or be baptized, or leave their parents without their consent, is unlawful & unjust. We believe that husbands, parents & masters who exercise control over their wives, children, & servants & prevent them from embracing the truth, will have to answer for that sin. WE HAVE GIVEN THE ABOVE RULE OF MARRIAGE AS THE ONLY ONE PRACTICED IN THIS CHURCH, to show that Dr. J.C. Bennett’s ‘secret wife system’ is a matter of his own manufacture; & further to disabuse the public ear, & shew that the said Bennett & his misanthropic friend Origen Bachelor, are perpetrating a foul & infamous slander upon an innocent people, & need but be known to be hated & despise. In support of this position, we present the following certificates:

“We the undersigned members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints & residents of the city of Nauvoo, persons of families do hereby certify & declare that we know of no other rule or system of marriage than the one published from the Book of Doctrine & Covenants, & we give this certificate to show that Dr. J. C. Bennett’s ‘secret wife system’ is a creature of his own make as we know of no such society in this place nor never did.”
S. Bennett, N.K. Whitney, George Miller, Albert Pettey, Alpheus Cutler, Elias Higbee, Reynolds Cahoon, John Taylor, Wilson Law, E. Robinson, W. Woodruff, Aaron Johnson.

“We the undersigned members of the ladies relief society, and married females do certify and declare that we know of no system of marriage being practiced in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints save the one contained in the Book of Doctrine & Covenants, and we give this certificate to the public to show that J.C. Bennett’s ‘secret wife system’ is a disclosure of his own make.”
Emma Smith, President, Elizabeth Ann Whitney, Counselor, Sarah M. Cleveland, Counsellor, Eliza R. Snow, Secretary, Mary C. Miller, Catharine Pettey, Lois Cutler, Sarah Higbee, Thirza Cahoon, Phebe Woodruff, Ann Hunter Leonora Taylor, Jane Law, Sarah Hillman, Sophia R. Marks, Rosannah Marks.
D&C 101, 1835 Edition,

“Gave instruction to try those who were preaching, teaching or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives or this law – Joseph forbids it, and the practice thereof. No man shall have but one wife.” Joseph Smith’s diary, Oct. 5, 1843. Church Historical Dept.(But after Joseph's death this entry was altered to seem to favor polygamy)

“TO THE ELDERS ABROAD - We very frequently receive letters from elders and individuals abroad, inquiring of us whether certain statements that they hear, and have written to them, are true; some pertaining to John C. Bennett’s spiritual wife system; others in regard to immoral conduct, practiced by individuals, and sanctioned by the church; and as it is impossible for us to answer all of them, we take this opportunity of answering them all, once for all. In the first place, we cannot but express our surprise that any elder or priest who has been in Nauvoo, and has had an opportunity of hearing the principles of truth advanced, should for one moment give credence to the idea that anything like iniquity is practiced, much less taught or sanctioned, by the authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We are the more surprised, since every species of iniquity is spoken against, and exposed publicly at the stand, and every means made use of that possibly can be, to suppress vice, both religious and civil; not only so, but every species of iniquity has frequently been exposed in the Times and Seasons, and its practisers and advocates held up to the world as corrupt men that ought to be avoided. We are however living in the “last days,” a time when the scriptures say “men shall wax worse, and worse; deceiving and being deceived;” in a time when it is declared, “if it is possible the very elect should be deceived.” We have in our midst corrupt men, (and let no man be astonished at this for “the net shall gather in of every kind, good and bad,”) these corrupt men circulate corrupt principles, for a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit; these spread their pernicious influence abroad, “they hatch cockatrices eggs, and weave the spider’s web; he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper;” their words eat as doth a canker; “the poison of asps is under their tongue, and the way of peace they have not known.” Such men not infrequently go abroad and prey upon the creduly of the people, probably have clandestinely obtained an ordination, and go forth as elders, the more effectually to impose upon the public. Some have got horses, and others money, under specious pretences, from the unwary and unsuspecting, among the newly formed branches who have not had the sagacity to detect them. There are other men who are corrupt and sensual, and who teach corrupt principles for the sake of gratifying their sensual appetites, at the expense and ruin of virtue and innocence. Such men ought to be avoided as pests to society, and be frowned down upon with contempt by every virtuous man and woman. All of the above, of whatever name or nature, are “reprobate concerning the faith;” if they write, they write corruptly; if they speak, they speak corruptly. They are such as the apostle speaks of, they speak “great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration.” – They are high & lifted up, & would trample upon the humble, & the meek, & the unassuming, & are not afraid to teach for the commandment of God, their own corrupt, & devilish doctrines, & principles; let no man therefore, be deceived by them, let no man harbor them, nor bid them God speed; don’t be partakers of their evil deeds. IF ANY MAN WRITES TO YOU, OR PREACHES TO YOU, DOCTRINES CONTRARY TO THE BIBLE, THE BOOK OF MORMON, OR THE BOOK OF DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS, SET HIM DOWN AS AN IMPOSTER. You need not write to us to know what you are to do with such men; you have the authority with you. – Try them by the principles contained in the acknowledged word of God; if they preach, or teach, or practice contrary to that, disfellowship them; cut them off from among you as useless & dangerous branches, & if they are belonging to any of the quorums in the church, report them to the president of the quorum to which they belong, & if you cannot find that out, if they are members of an official standing, belonging to Nauvoo, report them to us. Follow after purity, virtue, holiness, integrity, Godliness, & every thing that has a tendency to exalt & ennoble the human mind; & shun every man who teaches any other principles. Times and Seasons 5:490-491, April 1, 1844.

" How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel?... By his contradicting a former revelation."
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 215-216.

“I had not been married scarcely five minutes and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can. This new holy prophet William Law, has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are – whether it will be a curse or blessing to me. A man asked me whether the commandment was given that a man may have 7 wives, & now the new prophet has charged me with adultery. Wilson Law (William’s bro.) also swears that I told him I was guilty of adultery. I have rattled chains before in a dungeon for truth’s sake. I am innocent of all these charges, & you can bear witness of my innocence for you know me yourselves… This ‘spiritual wife-ism’, why a man does not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this. I am quite tired of the fools asking me… What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago and I can prove them all perjurers (liers). I labored with these apostates myself until I was out of all manner of patience.” Joseph Smith, History of the Church 6:408-412. May 26, 1844. (Very important testimony, for it was given just 1 month before his death)

Both Hyrum & Joseph Smith gave their testimonies & both denied & branded ‘a lie’ that a revelation had been received that provided for polygamy. In the ‘Nauvoo Neighbor’, June 18, 1844. (This document can be seen at the City Library of New York. It is highly important for it was given just a few days before these men were murdered by a mob.)

“But for the information of those who may be assailed by those foolish tales about 2 wives, we would say that no such principles ever existed among the Latter-Day Saints, and never will… The Book of Mormon, D&C and also all our periodicals are very strict on that subject, indeed, far more so than the Bible.” Latter Day Saints, Millennial Star, Thomas Ward Editor & Pres. of the British Mission, 3:74

“Forasmuch as the Lord has revealed unto me that my enemies, both of Missouri and this State [Illinois], were again on the pursuit of me; and inasmuch as they pursue me without cause, and have not the least shadow, or coloring of justice or right on their side, in the getting up of their prosecutions against me; and inasmuch as their pretensions are all unfounded in falsehood, of the blackest lie, I have thought it expedient and wisdom in me to leave the place [Nauvoo] for a short season, for my own safety and the safety of this people… When I learn that the storm is fully blown over, then I will return to you again.” Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons 3:919, Sept. 15, 1842.

“We are charged with advocating a ‘plurality of wives, and common property’. Now this is as false as the many other ridiculous charges which are brought against us… We do what others do not, practice what we preach.” Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons 4:143

“Know assuredly Dear brethren, that it is for the testimony of Jesus, that we are in bonds and in prison… Was it for committing adultery? We are aware that false and slanderous reports have gone abroad, which have reached our ears, respecting this thing, which have been started by renagadoes, and spread by the dissenters, who are extremely active in spreading foul and libilous reports concerning us; thinking thereby to gain the fellowship of the world… Some have reported that we not only dedicated our property, but likewise our families to the Lord, and Satan taking advantage of this has transfigured it into lasciviousness, a community of wives [polygamy], which things are an abomination in the sight of God.” When we consecrate our property to the Lord, it is to administer to the wants of the poor and needy according to the laws of God, and when a man consecrates or dedecates his wife and children to the Lord, he does not give them to his brother or to his neighbor, which is contrary to the law of God, which says, “Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not covet they neighbors wife.” “He that looketh upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already in his heart.” Now for a man to consecrate his property, his wife & children to the Lord is nothing more or less than to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the widows and fatherless, the sick and afflicted; and do all he can to administer to their relief in their afflictions, and for himself and his house to serve the Lord. In order to do this he and all his house must be virtuous and shun every appearance of evil. Now if any person, has represented any thing otherwise than what we now write, they have willfully misrepresented us.” Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons 1:82-85, April 1840. (While imprisoned in Liberty Jail & reports were circulating by his enemies that he & other leaders were polygamists.)

“It becomes by duty to lay before the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, & the public generally, some important facts relative to the conduct & character of Dr. John C. Bennett, who has lately, been expelled from the aforesaid church, that the honorable part of the community may be aware of his proceedings & be ready to treat him and regard him as he ought to be regarded, as an imposter & base adulterer. If is a matter of notoriety that said Dr. J.C. Bennett, became favorable to the doctrines taught by the elders of the church…, & located himself in the city of Nauvoo, about the month of August 1840, & soon after joined the church… He had not been long in Nauvoo before he began to keep company with a young lady… she being ignorant of his having a wife living, gave way to his addresses… I, seeing the folly of such an acquaintance, persuaded him to desist &… threatened to expose him if he did not desist… the acquaintance between them was broken off. But, like one of the most abominable & depraved beings which could possibly exist, he only broke off his publicly wicked actions, to sink deeper into iniquity & hypocrisy [by continuing to date her secretly]. When he saw that I would not submit to any such conduct, he went to some of the females in the city, who knew nothing of him but as an honorable man, & began to teach them that promiscuous intercourse between the sexes was a doctrine believed in by the Latter Day Saints, & that there was no harm in it, but this failing, he had recourse to a more influential & desperately wicked course; and that was, to persuade them that myself & others of the authorities of the church not only sanctioned, but practiced the same wicked acts;… not being contented with having disgraced one female, he made an attempt upon others, &, by the same plausible tale, overcame them also; evidently not caring whose character was ruined, so that his wicked, lustful appetites might be gratified…” Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons 3:839-840, July 1, 1842.

Polygamy in the Church prompted the Quorums of Seventy at Kirtland to publish a statement against that doctrine. The seventies adopted a resolution which stated, "That we will have no fellowship whatever with any Elder belonging to the quorums of the Seventies who is guilty of polygamy or any offence of the kind, and who does not in all things conform to the laws of the church" Messenger and Advocate 3 [May 1837]: 511.

“Bro. Richard Hewitt… states to me that some of your elders say, that a man having a certain Priesthood, may have as many wives as he pleases, & that doctrine is taught here; I say unto you that that man teaches false doctrines, for there is no such doctrine taught, neither is there any such thing practiced here. And any man that is found teaching privately or publically any such doctrine, is culpable, & will stand a chance to be brought before the High Council, & lose his license & membership also; Therefore, he had better beware what he is about.” Hyrum Smith, Times and Seasons 5:474, March 15, 1844.

“NOTICE – As we have lately been credibly informed, that an elder of the church of J.C. of LDS., by the name of Hiram Brown, has been preaching polygamy, & other false & corrupt doctrines, in the county of Lapeer, State of Michigan. This is to notify him & the church in general, that he has been cut off from the church, for his iniquity & he is further notified to appear at the special conference, on the 6th of April next, to make answer to these charges.” Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, Times and Seasons 5:423, Feb. 1, 1844.

Many different groups practiced polygamy in America then, & so non-members often asked “If the Church believed in polygamy.” Joseph listed 20 questions which are daily & hourly asked of them while traveling. One question was “Do the Mormons believe in having more wives than one? (Elders' Journal 1 [November 1837]: 28) Joseph’s answer: “No, not at the same time. But they believe that if their companion dies, they have the right to marry again.”