LDS as the Zoramites?

[marc]

I have read in one or more topics where the LDS are compared to Zoramites. As one who makes a serious study of the Book of Mormon in my life, I disagree. Fundamentally, Zoramites were Nephite dissenters who rejected Jesus Christ. Korihor, an Anti-Christ, epitomized the mind of these Anti-Christ dissenters and we know he was trodden upon by his own in the end.

Alma 31

8 Now the Zoramites were dissenters from the Nephites; therefore they had had the word of God preached unto them.

9 But they had fallen into great errors, for they would not observe to keep the commandments of God, and his statutes, according to the law of Moses.

10 Neither would they observe the performances of the church, to continue in prayer and supplication to God daily, that they might not enter into temptation.

11 Yea, in fine, they did pervert the ways of the Lord in very many instances; therefore, for this cause, Alma and his brethren went into the land to preach the word unto them.

12 Now, when they had come into the land, behold, to their astonishment they found that the Zoramites had built synagogues, and that they did gather themselves together on one day of the week, which day they did call the day of the Lord; and they did worship after a manner which Alma and his brethren had never beheld;

13 For they had a place built up in the center of their synagogue, a place for standing, which was high above the head; and the top thereof would only admit one person.

14 Therefore, whosoever desired to worship must go forth and stand upon the top thereof, and stretch forth his hands towards heaven, and cry with a loud voice, saying:

15 Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art God, and we believe that thou art holy, and that thou wast a spirit, and that thou art a spirit, and that thou wilt be a spirit forever.

16 Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children; and also thou hast made it known unto us that there shall be no Christ.

17 But thou art the same yesterday, today, and forever; and thou hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth bind them down to a belief of Christ, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our God.

18 And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen.

Korihor took these beliefs to the Anti-Nephi-Lehies in Jershon before finally being brought before Alma in Zarahemla:

12 And this Anti-Christ, whose name was Korihor, (and the law could have no hold upon him) began to preach unto the people that there should be no Christ. And after this manner did he preach, saying:

13 O ye that are bound down under a foolish and a vain hope, why do ye yoke yourselves with such foolish things? Why do ye look for a Christ? For no man can know of anything which is to come.

14 Behold, these things which ye call prophecies, which ye say are handed down by holy prophets, behold, they are foolish traditions of your fathers.

15 How do ye know of their surety? Behold, ye cannot know of things which ye do not see; therefore ye cannot know that there shall be a Christ.

16 Ye look forward and say that ye see a remission of your sins. But behold, it is the effect of a frenzied mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so.

Korihor was struck dumb by the Lord and he confessed that he was deceived. He ended up begging for food (he could no longer subsist with food and fine clothing from his priestcraft) and was run upon and trodden down by his own people.

I will admit that there may be pockets of LDS members/wards who have lifted themselves up in pride because of their riches and station in life, wearing fine and costly apparel, etc. And while I believe that they may believe that Christ lives, the members may not necessarily worship Him and be lifted up in their pride and express themselves as such, even during fast and testimony meeting. The Zoramites built a stand to be seen by all:

19 Now it came to pass that after Alma and his brethren and his sons had heard these prayers, they were astonished beyond all measure.

20 For behold, every man did go forth and offer up these same prayers.

21 Now the place was called by them Rameumptom, which, being interpreted, is the holy stand.

22 Now, from this stand they did offer up, every man, the selfsame prayer unto God, thanking their God that they were chosen of him, and that he did not lead them away after the tradition of their brethren, and that their hearts were not stolen away to believe in things to come, which they knew nothing about.

23 Now, after the people had all offered up thanks after this manner, they returned to their homes, never speaking of their God again until they had assembled themselves together again to the holy stand, to offer up thanks after their manner.

Now I have heard on occasion, people get up to bear their testimony only to pontificate and not to bear witness of Jesus Christ or of sacred things pertaining to His gospel. It may be vain in some wards, I don't know. But if anything, I do not believe Latter Day Saints are as the Zoramites, but I do believe they are like most Nephites during this time, who considered their newly converted Lamanite brethren, the Ant-Nephi-Lehies who live in Jershon with Ammon, as "zealous." I do not believe that most LDS are zealously striving for righteousness as those converted Lamanites in Jershon did, but are like most Nephites were, casual in their beliefs and more focused on worldly pursuits and are Sabbath breakers by nature giving more time and importance to worldly gods like NFL, Twilight, American Idol, and making many worldly pursuits their idols. Television is their greatest golden calf, adding to it Pay Per View, Playstations, etc. and wasting countless hours per week worshiping. I definitely would compare the Land of Zarahemla and the capital city of Zarahemla with Salt Lake City and the lands round about from Tremonton up north all the way down to about Provo or Spanish Fork. It is a microcosm and representation of the membership around the globe.

[sourcedist]

Marc,

Once again great post. Its really odd that you mention idols such as television, specifically NFL, sports, etc.
This morning as I was preparing some food, the same thoughts ran through my mind. A family member was channel flipping and stopped on NASCAR or some type of racing event.
As the camera panned into the crowd, all I saw were faces caught up in the moment. Cheering, yelling, etc. As if the main deciding factor in life hung on who won the race today.
I considered posting my thoughts on the board but figured time would be better spent reading and pondering. But then I read your post, and figured I would relay some words to the group.

Basically the question I was going to raise to the board was this:

As one becomes more caught up in spiritual matters, how much further do you push back on TV, sports, entertainment. Does it really even matter if you watch the super bowl. Who wins?
Myself I prefer reading this forum and referenced texts more than watching TV. I own a TV, but BARELY turn it on; outisde of watching an occasional movie. Even then, my selection of movies is very limited.

I was at a friend's house last week. I thought we were going to watch a movie. But my friend's household decided to watch a music awards ceremony. Billboard's annual PR show.. Anyway, they could tell by the look on my face I was in pain. Just the soullessness of the whole thing just didnt sit right with me. It was like watching demons celebrating their works.. Filth. So I just read news and LDSFF posts.. But then again, even drudge these days is just an aggregate of highly sexual related content. I am also seeing filth permeate LDSFF as well.. All under the guise of making a point.. I digress..

My point in all this? Something within me is telling me to not take for granted my days of probation(thats really a general warning to all).. however those words are becoming louder and louder each day. Which in turn aligns with your post that cars, money for the sake of having money, sports, etc, all have little meaning.

[ATL Wake]

I have read in one or more topics where the LDS are compared to Zoramites. As one who makes a serious study of the Book of Mormon in my life, I disagree. Fundamentally, Zoramites were Nephite dissenters who rejected Jesus Christ. Korihor, an Anti-Christ, epitomized the mind of these Anti-Christ dissenters and we know he was trodden upon by his own in the end.

Coach, I appreciate a lot of what you write, and I agree with a lot of what you say here, but I'd like to write a little on how I would tweak this application to us.

We are to liken the scriptures to ourselves and Mormon DID put this here for a purpose. Now while I agree with you that the LDS are not JUST LIKE the Zoramites, I think Mormon is trying to show us somethings to avoid. And many of us DO FIT some of his characterizations.

The first thing that we should notice, is that the Zoramites WERE RELIGIOUS. Being religious however, does not equate to being SPIRITUAL. There are many saints who are very religious, but they are not spiritual. They do not seek the spirit and they are not led by the spirit.

9 But they had fallen into great errors, for they would not observe to keep the commandments of God, and his statutes, according to the law of Moses.

Have many of us not fallen in great errors? Are there not commandments and statutes that we do not keep?

10 Neither would they observe the performances of the church, to continue in prayer and supplication to God daily, that they might not enter into temptation.
How many of us do not pray daily? How many of us do not go to the temple regularly? Show up for church after the sacrament? Leave early? Don't minister to others?

11 Yea, in fine, they did pervert the ways of the Lord in very many instances; therefore, for this cause, Alma and his brethren went into the land to preach the word unto them.

How often have we focused on the wrong things? There are posts here about SP wanting only white bread for the sacrament, white shirts, showing up 10 minutes early - while some of these things are good or not harmful, they're not things we are to focus on.

12 Now, when they had come into the land, behold, to their astonishment they found that the Zoramites had built synagogues, and that they did gather themselves together on one day of the week, which day they did call the day of the Lord; and they did worship after a manner which Alma and his brethren had never beheld;

How often do some of us only show our religion only once a week?


15 Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art God, and we believe that thou art holy, and that thou wast a spirit, and that thou art a spirit, and that thou wilt be a spirit forever.
Now the fact that we believe in God, should not make us think that the rest of this does not apply.

16 Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children; and also thou hast made it known unto us that there shall be no Christ.

17 But thou art the same yesterday, today, and forever; and thou hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth bind them down to a belief of Christ, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our God.

18 And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen.

Now just because we believe in Christ does not mean that the whole chapter cannot be likened to us. Do we ever think, "How grateful we are that we are a chosen generation separated from historical Christianity and other churches?" Even though there is legitimate truth to that, it can easily lead to pride. And there are many talks/testimonies where I have seen it cross the line from gratitude to pride.

So while we do not fit the Zoramites to a T, this is definitely a passage of scripture we should study and ponder. How do we worship? Is it sincere? Do we think we are better than other people? This is really the great sin of the Zoramites. They were prideful. They thought they were elect and better than others. They cast out the poor. Do we cast out the poor? Do we make people feel welcome if they are not dressed appropriately? (Ouch--that truth stings.)

Coach, I don't think you intended to say that this doesn't apply to us at all. But I thought that it is important to look at this a little more carefully to see what Mormon may have wanted us to see.

[awake]

The first thing that we should notice, is that the Zoramites WERE RELIGIOUS. Being religious however, does not equate to being SPIRITUAL. There are many saints who are very religious, but they are not spiritual. They do not seek the spirit and they are not led by the spirit. [/color]

So while we do not fit the Zoramites to a T, this is definitely a passage of scripture we should study and ponder. Do we think we are better than other people? They were prideful. They thought they were elect and better than others. They cast out the poor. Do we cast out the poor?

I agree. Being 'religious' can be very different than being 'spiritual'. I have always thought there were many similarities between Zoramites and most LDS today. For most LDS are sure they are right and can't be wrong. Many believe they are led by the Spirit, and can't be deceived by a false spirit. Many cast out the needy and persecute the humble followers of Christ, while believing they themselves are righteous.

Of course there are many in all religions that can be like the Zoramites.

[Fairminded]

Since I was one of those who compared current LDS to the Zoramites I should probably clarify.

My comparison was solely between the Zoramites' pride and treatment of the poor and how the LDS today are moving towards the same. I could just as easily compare many LDS today to Alma the Younger before his conversion. Who, being born to a life of privilege, once stated words to the effect of "The poor are poor because they are lazy. If I work more, then I should have more."

Anyone else heard a statement like that from LDS recently, particularly the second part?

[marc]

Great comments so far. ATL, I definitely agree with your post. I chose only one facet of the Zoramites' culture to focus on and I thought about really dissecting their religion, but then thought better of it for now. We can all apply the various facets to our own lives as LDS collectively and individualy. As I mentioned, fundamentally they rejected Christ and that is what I decided to focus on.

Alma and company observed:

9 But they had fallen into great errors, for they would not observe to keep the commandments of God, and his statutes, according to the law of Moses.

10 Neither would they observe the performances of the church, to continue in prayer and supplication to God daily, that they might not enter into temptation....

24 Now when Alma saw this his heart was grieved; for he saw that they were a wicked and a perverse people; yea, he saw that their hearts were set upon gold, and upon silver, and upon all manner of fine goods.

25 Yea, and he also saw that their hearts were lifted up unto great boasting, in their pride...

27 Behold, O God, they cry unto thee, and yet their hearts are swallowed up in their pride. Behold, O God, they cry unto thee with their mouths, while they are puffed up, even to greatness, with the vain things of the world.

28 Behold, O my God, their costly apparel, and their ringlets, and their bracelets, and their ornaments of gold, and all their precious things which they are ornamented with; and behold, their hearts are set upon them, and yet they cry unto thee and say—We thank thee, O God, for we are a chosen people unto thee, while others shall perish.

29 Yea, and they say that thou hast made it known unto them that there shall be no Christ.

We are all at varying degrees of pride where we would rather set our hearts upon our boats or upon our four wheelers or upon the next big (football/hockey/baseball/...) game or getting a bigger flat screen tv or a nicer luxury car. To lesser extents, we buy groceries that we don't need rather than buy extra food storage/supplies or would rather go golfing rather than home teaching or attend an endowment session because we only have a couple free hours each week. As we walk a narrower and narrower path as Christ did, not turning to the right or to the left, we have the choice to listen to the radio or else turn on some church music. Some spend time reading a good romance novel or some pulp fiction rather than searching and feasting upon the scriptures. As our eye becomes more and more single to the work and glory of the Lord, we find ourselves fasting for longer periods of time and then giving more generous fast offerings rather than spending that extra $40 left over from our paycheck on something fun. And so we walk a finer line, a narrower and strait path. We become perfected in Christ. We become like Him.

[jonesde]

Since I was one of those who compared current LDS to the Zoramites I should probably clarify.

My comparison was solely between the Zoramites' pride and treatment of the poor and how the LDS today are moving towards the same. I could just as easily compare many LDS today to Alma the Younger before his conversion. Who, being born to a life of privilege, once stated words to the effect of "The poor are poor because they are lazy. If I work more, then I should have more."

Anyone else heard a statement like that from LDS recently, particularly the second part?

Hmmm... it seems like I've seen a couple of comments like that in just the last couple of days on this forum.

There are subtleties to this though. Some people really do choose to be poor but have enough, and that is their choice. Not all of us want a McMansion and McDonalds-style food for every meal. Some people choose to have more things or different sorts of things in their life, and sometimes those become a priority to their spiritual detriment, and to the detriment of those they might help.

Whether they are really causing problems in their desires and their getting is another question... but it really is hard to earn a lot of money in our current highly regulated and leveraged economy without doing so on the backs of poorer people.

One interesting recent discussion here was about voluntarily making less money to reduce your tax burden, and reduce the amount you contribute to the wickedness that the US Govt spreads around the world (murders, grand thefts, rape, and so much more). A few people seemed to have the attitude that it is better to have more, and perhaps in some ways it is if you choose it to help others and make the world around you a better place.

On the other hand, those who seek more wealth on the backs of others, especially using force or fraud, and including being paid with money raised coercively and not just being paid to apply force, may have some tough questions to answer about how they lived their lives, and where their priorities really are. Things are sufficiently distorted these days that most people who do live through force and fraud don't believe they do and are even quite offended when that is pointed out to them. And yet, over half the economy in the USA runs this way, and over half the population lives on funds acquired through force and/or fraud.

[reese]

While the content of our worship may be different, our method(including our general attitude) is very much the same. There had to be a reason that Mormon chose to include such a detailed account in the BofM, if it wasn't as a warning to us I can't imagine what else it would be.