Ravening wolves are amongst us...

[shadow]

Don't lease that Lexus Pitch, the church owned credit union (Deseret First Credit Union) wants you to get a loan from them so you can buy it, maybe get a second loan for another new car so your teenage driver won't be embarassed by driving an "old" car. While you're there you can apply for a home equity line of credit so you can remodel your kitchen. Heaven forbid you let the home teachers in your house without having it updated or modernized. Think of the rumors that would spread thoughoout the ward.

Whew, now all is well in Zion. Yes sir, Zion is now prospering (thanks to a little speculation and a heck of a lot of debt).

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Those are some good ideas Shadow! Why don't lds just call their front rooms home teacher rooms? Why is it the family room? Or is it the living room? I'm really glad we addressed all of this today so I have time to figure out who's in the Superbowl and buy snacks for Sunday (I would just buy them on Sunday, but you can only do that in Utah as both our local grocers are closed on Sundays). Anybody hear what half-time is going to be like? Do I need 3D glasses?

[Army Of Truth]

That's it, my kids are going to public school, I'm gonna go buy a cookie cutter house in happy valley and sign up for Amway, Swiss and I are going on a few meds along with the kids, maybe we'll "have some work done" too. Then it's off to lease a Lexus and go apply at Franklin Covey and Nuskin. We really need to downsize the food storage too so we can make room for the new entertainment center where we'll watch every pg-13 movie made and half of the stake approved R movies.

Safely in the center lulled away into everlasting bliss.

All is well in Zion, I just read it in the paper.

LOL!!! Good one SwissMrs! I never heard of this purging within our church.
I wonder if I am "obsessed" with President Benson? I have quite a few of his books and I happen to agree 100% with every one of them? Hmm, maybe I should talk to my bishop to see if he wants me to burn them?

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

You might wait until President Monson is sustained before burning President Hinkley's books though, but certainly we should do it at that point.

[ithink]

You are treading on potential thin ice here ithink and your insinuations will only lead you further into speculations that will weaken your faith and your trust in the Lords annointed servants ... This is said in respect and concern and not in condemnation.

Yes I know I rock the boat a bit, but I can't help it Good advice none the less, thak you Mark. I was trying to point the finger at the jack mormon population to explain off the quotes. Did I fail to do so? Maybe I've read Approaching Zion one to many times . I'm very happy with our leadership, above all I think they're doing an amazing job in an extremely difficult world.

o The practice of home schooling.
o Having leanings or membership in the John Birch Society.
o Holding study groups.
o An inordinate preoccupation with food storage.
o Reading doomsday books and other material unapproved by the church.
o People who sell their services of gospel understanding for money.
o Quoting the exact day of the coming of Jesus Christ.
o Performing temple ordinances outside the temple.

cjex, we've seen that article before, the part about the homeschoolers is interesting and reeks of Establishment influence to me. Moderation might be the key, and I do agree extremeism can send you to hell, but homeschooling is not extremeism, nor is membership in John Birch (which Benson recommended), nor is holding study groups. I'm not sure, but I guess not letting the kids read Harry Potter is a backward form of extremeism since Potter is everywhere in church bookstores, which means it is approved but we're not reading it. That leaves the last three (maybe four) of the list which we are not doing, and since we are only doing the top 4 or 5 , I guess we're OK.

But if extremeism isn't good, neither is being lukewarm "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." And we all know Satan's plan is not an extremist plan, as it subtly combines scripture with the philosophies of men -- hardly an extremist recipe, yet a very successful one!

Concerning the one mighty and strong, I personally feel it is not fulfilled yet, but we just don't know, nor does it bother me if it is or is not. See this decent article at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Mighty_and_Strong

Good comments all!

[Mark]

You guys know little of what was happening with these apostate influences at that time or you would not make light of the churchs attempts to root out this evil and protect the flock from these wolves. I lost some family members and a good friend to these apostates and I know that Shawn lost a brother to this group so laugh it up all you want but you have no clue what kind of influence for bad these folks had on many good families.

These families were torn apart by a bunch of prideful wolves in sheeps clothing who used every opportunity they were given to lead others away from the safety of the church. I don't particularly find that misery many had to experience a funny thing. It was a nightmare for those innocents who suffered at the hands of these apostates. The church was doing the best they could to expose these bad apples and warn people of the dangers involved.

The tribune article tried to paint the church in the worst possible light so as to make the church leaders look like a bunch of excommunication happy authoritarians just looking to pick on righteous prepared people. What a load of bullcrap that is. Please find out the facts before jumping to judgements against the church leaders who had very difficult duties to perform.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I have just been biting my tongue about that since it was stated so authoritatively, but we have discussed it before here and it is clear that many of the brethren have spoken of the man like Moses in the future tense after Joseph's death. True some think that it was Brigham Young, and others say that it will be Joseph resurrected both of which are cited by Gerald Lund in "The Coming of the Lord," though he gives no weight to either theory. When looking at all of the material that I have, especially the scripture itself, it is clear that the man like Moses delivers and leads to Zion at the time of the redemption of Zion. That is enough for me to place it in the future.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

That's rediculous Mark, we were mocking the article not the leaders.

[ithink]

Point taken Mark, apology offered if offence was taken -- none was intended.

No doubt apostasy was a HUGE problem -- and still is, at least that's what it looks like to me after spending a short while at the "New Order Mormon" forum. Some who don't know better are getting carried away in the evil current.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

As to the Wikipedia link it is interesting that the first presidency said that it was conditional and would have been a presiding bishop to replace Edward Partridge, but John Taylor made the statement that the man like Moses was the prophet of the church. A lot of contradictory stuff that is only reconciled in saying that it applied and will apply to the building up of Zion and appointing stewardships.

[Mark]

Thanks ithink. Sorry for the outburst but the hurt sometimes still surfaces. Many futures were changed because of the antics of a few. They will pay a heavy price for that trail of tears.

[a-train]

What is a further problem with those 'survivalists' is that they give level headed people who talk about the problems we face a bad name. We have members wondering if Ezra Taft Benson was misled.

What the apostates do is take a certain part of the message of the restored gospel or the teachings and warnings of the latter-day prophets and exalt it above the others. Eternal marriage, geneaology, priesthood and temple ordinances, and just about anything are taken out of their proper place as one revolves around their favorite aspect of the gospel message to the neglect of many or all others.

I knew a man on my mission that had his food storage so overblown that he had a secret room built with humidity and temperature control. A secret door behind a shelf case opened to gain access. He even included cartons of cigarettes and canisters of coffee for bartering.

What is tough for me is that members around me associate any acknowledgment of the LDGs at all with such fanaticism. They are scared to even crack a book like None Dare Call It Conspiracy.

The fact is that the book doesn't end with the line: 'so get your guns and head for the hills!' President Benson in his most compelling and enlightening talks on the subject made no such cries. Our responsibility in regard to that matter is to seek honest men and support them in vote and in deed as we together uphold the constitution given by the LORD.

The preparations we are to make in the protection from calamaties coming to us are clearly given from the pulpit in general conference. Avoid debt, food storage, ward and stake emergency plans, an honest and upright observance of the commandments, scripture study and prayer, tithing, savings, the building and preservation of family, temple attendance, these are the things we are to be doing.

All I want to do is my part in waking up my brethren and helping them to vote in an educated manner. I think most of them are doing most everything they should be.

-a-train

[ShawnC]

You guys know little of what was happening with these apostate influences at that time or you would not make light of the churchs attempts to root out this evil and protect the flock from these wolves. I lost some family members and a good friend to these apostates and I know that Shawn lost a brother to this group so laugh it up all you want but you have no clue what kind of influence for bad these folks had on many good families.

These families were torn apart by a bunch of prideful wolves in sheeps clothing who used every opportunity they were given to lead others away from the safety of the church. I don't particularly find that misery many had to experience a funny thing. It was a nightmare for those innocents who suffered at the hands of these apostates. The church was doing the best they could to expose these bad apples and warn people of the dangers involved.

The tribune article tried to paint the church in the worst possible light so as to make the church leaders look like a bunch of excommunication happy authoritarians just looking to pick on righteous prepared people. What a load of bullcrap that is. Please find out the facts before jumping to judgements against the church leaders who had very difficult duties to perform.

It was a brother and a sister, and then another brother lost his way and was exed due to some of those influences, even though he has not joined up with another group.

[ShawnC]

I have just been biting my tongue about that since it was stated so authoritatively, but we have discussed it before here and it is clear that many of the brethren have spoken of the man like Moses in the future tense after Joseph's death. True some think that it was Brigham Young, and others say that it will be Joseph resurrected both of which are cited by Gerald Lund in "The Coming of the Lord," though he gives no weight to either theory. When looking at all of the material that I have, especially the scripture itself, it is clear that the man like Moses delivers and leads to Zion at the time of the redemption of Zion. That is enough for me to place it in the future.

Thanks Pitch. I don't see how it could be a Joseph reincarnated either. He fulfilled his mission.

Some on here may mock me for this, but my belief is that it is John the Revelator, Christs original apostle. This is the reason he is still here today in my opinion. Part of this one mighty and strong's mission is to lead the gathering of the tribes. He is also to be an Elias just as John the Baptist was before Christ came the first time. If you read D&C 77:14 it states...

14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things.

Just wanted to see if others had additional info on these things. Thanks for the input.

Shawn

[ShawnC]

As to the Wikipedia link it is interesting that the first presidency said that it was conditional and would have been a presiding bishop to replace Edward Partridge, but John Taylor made the statement that the man like Moses was the prophet of the church. A lot of contradictory stuff that is only reconciled in saying that it applied and will apply to the building up of Zion and appointing stewardships.

Yes, establishing Zion is one of the main goals in my understanding.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

ShawnC that is awesome! I had not thought of who it might be. I love that thought and feel that it would be incredibly consistent.

[ShawnC]

What is a further problem with those 'survivalists' is that they give level headed people who talk about the problems we face a bad name. We have members wondering if Ezra Taft Benson was misled.

What the apostates do is take a certain part of the message of the restored gospel or the teachings and warnings of the latter-day prophets and exalt it above the others. Eternal marriage, geneaology, priesthood and temple ordinances, and just about anything are taken out of their proper place as one revolves around their favorite aspect of the gospel message to the neglect of many or all others.

I knew a man on my mission that had his food storage so overblown that he had a secret room built with humidity and temperature control. A secret door behind a shelf case opened to gain access. He even included cartons of cigarettes and canisters of coffee for bartering.

What is tough for me is that members around me associate any acknowledgment of the LDGs at all with such fanaticism. They are scared to even crack a book like None Dare Call It Conspiracy.

The fact is that the book doesn't end with the line: 'so get your guns and head for the hills!' President Benson in his most compelling and enlightening talks on the subject made no such cries. Our responsibility in regard to that matter is to seek honest men and support them in vote and in deed as we together uphold the constitution given by the LORD.

The preparations we are to make in the protection from calamaties coming to us are clearly given from the pulpit in general conference. Avoid debt, food storage, ward and stake emergency plans, an honest and upright observance of the commandments, scripture study and prayer, tithing, savings, the building and preservation of family, temple attendance, these are the things we are to be doing.

All I want to do is my part in waking up my brethren and helping them to vote in an educated manner. I think most of them are doing most everything they should be.

-a-train

Excellent a-train,

Very well stated. When I first was learning about these principles, I was very hesitant because of what my brother had done and the way he went so far to the extreme. I agree that too much focus on the favorite gospel topic is dangerous. Mark has discussed this before on this forum and I agree with him. In my conversations with people, I always have to keep it really lite. As soon as I get to deep, they want to put up the defenses and discount me as a nut job. Some people enjoy being labeled a nut job but it really does very little for the cause that many of us have undertaken.

Thanks for your levelheadedness.

Shawn

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

The only problem with John is that the Lost Tribes come after the temple in Zion is built and yet the man like Moses is I believe to lead the first saints back to Independence to redeem Zion. But then some like Darren believe the lost tribes have started to come forth and we do after all have temples in Zion now, and there are others like Charity that believe that they are already in Zion and will remain until the Temple is built thus no return needed. Clearly I don't know the answer and I do not for a second believe that they are wrong. I simply do not know and hence apply the knowledge the best I can and take it where it leads me until such time that I do know.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I agree, it is a matter of honest and true priorities and not gospel specialization.

[Army Of Truth]

My apologies too, Mark, or anyone I've offended. I was not making fun of any members or priesthood holders doing their rightful duty. I was just mocking the article. Like a-train stated, I've run into too many members that I've spoken to where they suddenly turn cold and put up a brick wall once I mention the words "conspiracy" or "new world order" like some pavlovian conditioning class that they've all attended. (MSM?) I haven't even met a member yet in my ward that has read any of Benson's books. The only comments they do make is "wasn't he a Bircher?" which really eats me up because it shows that they would rather trust the msm than a former prophet of the Lord.

Great insights Shawn and Pitch. It very well could be Joseph in his resurrected body or even John in his translated body. I've also heard others mention Joseph being the one coming back in the last days in his resurrected body. (can't remember where i heard it; i think it was in Sunday school or something)

[Army Of Truth]

I agree that too much focus on the favorite gospel topic is dangerous. Mark has discussed this before on this forum and I agree with him. In my conversations with people, I always have to keep it really lite. As soon as I get to deep, they want to put up the defenses and discount me as a nut job. Some people enjoy being labeled a nut job but it really does very little for the cause that many of us have undertaken.

My thoughts exactly, Shawn. I no longer like to be labeled a "kook" but rather like to try to keep it light and only talk about "milk" so as to help them down the road to true government principles. Contention is not of the Lord.

[buffalo_girl]

...and half of the stake approved R movies.

Which movies are they?

Some on here may mock me for this, but my belief is that it is John the Revelator, Christs original apostle. This is the reason he is still here today in my opinion. Part of this one mighty and strong's mission is to lead the gathering of the tribes. He is also to be an Elias just as John the Baptist was before Christ came the first time. If you read D&C 77:14 it states...

Yes, Shawn, that is a wonderful insight.

Presidential candidate Bo Gritz, leader of an ultraconservative political movement, says he is among those who have been warned.

I never trusted Bo Gritz. He had all the characteristics of a c i a infiltrator.

[Mark]

I would like to echo Shawns post who by the way is also very level headed and thank a-train for that excellent post. You are spot on target with those observations. There are so many gospel hobbiests today who have decided to focus only on pounding 1 key of the piano as Elder Maxwell stated and exclude all the other keys that could provide such beautiful music. As Elder Oaks talk suggested their strengths then become their weaknesses. I have seen it happen over and over again.

That puts a greater responsibility on those who seek for truth to be darn sure that they do not get caught up in hype and over speculation so that they are not discounted as a bunch of radical weirdo's by the masses. Credibility and truth must be maintained if one wants to truely make a difference in awakening those who slumber. Otherwise it gives justification to those who need to awaken to continue sleeping by pointing to someones credibility as less than steller if they start throwing out all manner of speculative theories and unsubstanciated rumors and myth.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I think it varies by stake Buffalo girl. The Passion of the Christ is one frequently on the list. Others than myself might have a better idea, as I do not see what movies are out, being somewhat isolated. But I too think that placing faith in the rating agency is foolish (thus the pg-13 comment). I am not worried about missing something good that's rated R, rather I am worried about missing something bad that's rated G (the Disney Hunchback of Notre Dame with it's lustful flames comes to mind).

[Mark]

I appreciate your post as well Army. Thanks for the good spirit of your comments . You bring up a very good point that I have thought a lot about. When I discuss events today with those who are concerned about the things happening in our country and the world at large I find that many want to jump to speculative conclusions and start shouting buzz words like NWO and conspiracy and drawing conclusions that have proven over time to be innacurrate and misleading. Some have formulated time tables that have come and gone with nothing happening and they then just turn around and reformulate another time table and prediction of events not learning anything from their lack of credibility shown previously.

I have tried to concentrate on just bringing hard facts to the table and not make assumptions and speculations based on these events and happenings. I leave that to the palm readers. I would rather have someone start to question these events on their own and draw some educated conclusions based on facts than to start screaming what I feel are my speculative conclusions to the person which may turn them off to my message. This way the individual who is slumbering may start to question things for themselves and not use my forceful assumptions and rantings as an excuse to stay asleep.

Many of the survivalists who headed for the hills over 15 years ago have been derided and relegated to tin foil hat nut jobs who let their imagination get the best of them when they were screaming that the NWO was ready to take over the country and put all patriots into prison camps in the 90's. They were shown to be full of hype and pure speculation and gave others an excuse to stay asleep because they didn't want to "turn into one of those nuts". That is unfortunate because some of their message was correct. They just carried it to extremes and turned off the masses because of their fear and speculative theories. Credibility is everything is you want to make a difference to others. I let them reach their own conclusions and not cram my own down their throats.