Sacrament Bread

[Vision]

I have been struggling with this topic since Sunday. A priesthood leader taught in his Sunday talk that the white bread used in the Sacrament represents purity of the Savior. Our Stake President is very stern about only allowing white bread to be used as Sacrament bread.

BUT

D&C 27: 2 Reads- "For, Behold I say unto you, that it mattereth not what you shall eat or what you shall drink when you partake of the Sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory..........."

Am I missing something or is there a bit of philosophy of men being interjected into the Stake I live in?

Please help me out here.

He also taught that when we are baptized we are all washed clean. Eight year olds are not dirty because they have not been accountable until that time in there life, so how can they be washed clean when they have not been able to sin?

[shadow]

chalk it up to false doctrine.

[marc]

The bread (regardless of it being wheat, white, whatever) represents Christ's body exactly as described in the sacrament prayer. Nothing more, nothing less.

[ATL Wake]

I have been struggling with this topic since Sunday. A priesthood leader taught in his Sunday talk that the white bread used in the Sacrament represents purity of the Savior. Our Stake President is very stern about only allowing white bread to be used as Sacrament bread.

BUT

D&C 27: 2 Reads- "For, Behold I say unto you, that it mattereth not what you shall eat or what you shall drink when you partake of the Sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory..........."

Am I missing something or is there a bit of philosophy of men being interjected into the Stake I live in?

Please help me out here.

He also taught that when we are baptized we are all washed clean. Eight year olds are not dirty because they have not been accountable until that time in there life, so how can they be washed clean when they have not been able to sin?

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

What did they do before they enriched and processed bread to make it whiter?

Baptism by water is "unto remission of sins" not for remission of sins.

Baptism by water signifies that you will seek remission of sins, but it is not the water that cleanses you, it is the baptism by fire and Holy Ghost that cleanses you from sin. One must be born again.

2 Nephi 31: 17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

I believe, we baptize young so that they become members of the church and receive the Holy Ghost so that they may be born again later. But I would guess that most members are not actually born again/baptized by fire and spirit at 8. The scriptures that talk about being born again (Mosiah 5, Mosiah 27, Alma 5, Alma 36, Hel 5) are not addressing children.

[tmac]

+1 ATL

The whole white bread thing is like so many other man-made gospel myths and paradigms. If you didn't have bread, you could use crackers or virtually any other food substance and adjust the wording of the prayer accordingly and have it have the same substantive effect -- and that is the key to this whole discussion -- SUBSTANCE. There are so many people who want to elevate form over substance. Between the two, I think form means very little in God's eyes -- even with a uniform ordinance like the sacrament. I'm sure He would much rather see people partake of jerky with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, in true remembrance of the body of Christ, than to go through the motions, partaking of the purest, whitest bread imaginable, without the spiritual substance.

[Rand]

I believe, we baptize young so that they become members of the church and receive the Holy Ghost so that they may be born again later. But I would guess that most members are not actually born again/baptized by fire and spirit at 8. The scriptures that talk about being born again (Mosiah 5, Mosiah 27, Alma 5, Alma 36, Hel 5) are not addressing children.

Great post ATL. Its nice to agree with you on something. )

I wish I had written that. Well done.

It is typical CTR doctrine taught by a High Priest. As long as he is living it, he doesn't have to be able to teach it, so no judgment from me on his life. Just not very sound doctrine.

[jcricket6048]

in my stake the Stake President wants all of the young men to wear white shirts with ties. And he wants all of the priesthood holders to wear white shirts as well too. This means that our Stake President wants to be pure and clean and our thoughts also. They are not trying to divert us away from the true gospel but they want us to lead a pure lives and by doing so we have a better understanding why they are leading us.

[ATL Wake]

in my stake the Stake President wants all of the young men to wear white shirts with ties. And he wants all of the priesthood holders to wear white shirts as well too. This means that our Stake President wants to be pure and clean and our thoughts also. They are not trying to divert us away from the true gospel but they want us to lead a pure lives and by doing so we have a better understanding why they are leading us.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the anature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little bauthority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise cunrighteous dominion.

[patriotsaint]

Does he specify you need to remove the brown crust from white bread? Is white pita bread allowed?

Obviously the above was said with tongue in cheek. The idea that only white bread should be used is absurd. It reminds me of the story President Monson related in one of the worldwide training meetings:

I’m reminded of an experience I had many years ago when I served as a bishop. During the opening exercises of our priesthood meeting one Sunday morning, we were preparing to ordain a young man to the office of priest. Visiting our ward that day was a high councilor who also served as a temple worker. As I prepared to have the young man sit down to face the congregation so that we could proceed with the ordination, the high councilor stopped me and said, “Bishop, I always have those being ordained turned to face the temple.” He repositioned the chair so that the young man would be facing in the direction of the temple. I immediately recognized an unauthorized practice.

I could see the potential for it to become more widespread in practice. Although much younger than the high councilor, I knew what needed to be done. I turned the chair back so that it was again facing the congregation and said to him, “In our ward, we face the congregation.”

[SmallFarm]

I have been struggling with this topic since Sunday. A priesthood leader taught in his Sunday talk that the white bread used in the Sacrament represents purity of the Savior. Our Stake President is very stern about only allowing white bread to be used as Sacrament bread.

BUT

D&C 27: 2 Reads- "For, Behold I say unto you, that it mattereth not what you shall eat or what you shall drink when you partake of the Sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory..........."

Am I missing something or is there a bit of philosophy of men being interjected into the Stake I live in?

Please help me out here.

He also taught that when we are baptized we are all washed clean. Eight year olds are not dirty because they have not been accountable until that time in there life, so how can they be washed clean when they have not been able to sin?

Maybe this is a test of faith whether you will submit to his authority ( the fact that he is technically wrong is, by my interpretation, beside the point.

[shadow]

Maybe this is a test of faith whether you will submit to his authority ( the fact that he is technically wrong is, by my interpretation, beside the point.

I don't disagree.

While at a dance Ephraim Hanks was asked by the prophet Brigham Young (who had a beard) to shave his beard. He went home and did so. He came back with a mustache. The bearded President Young told him to go shave that too, which he quickly did.

Moses told his people to look at the serpent and be healed. That's just stupid #-o

[Rand]

That type of obedience is just too much for too many..... but most of them are with the third part that didn't keep their first estate.

[gr8ideas]

"Some are sent to serve us and some to try us"

[EmmaLee]

Our Stake President is very stern about only allowing white bread to be used as Sacrament bread.

LOL - sounds a lot like our high councilman who believes women should never cut their hair and garments should never be put in the dryer. #-o This same man also beats his sons with a belt till they have bloody welts on their skin, so...

[gkearney]

I just looked at the handbook and there is nothing in there about what kind of bread to use. I once had a Bishop that insisted it be organic whole wheat bread which his wife baked from wheat that she ground herself, so there you go.

[g_luv_style]

I seem to remember hearing stories about the Saints in post war Europe using potato peels in place of the bread in the sacrament. They did this because bread was scarce. I wish I could find the source, I think we talked about in seminary or institute when I was younger.

[Kandeep]

As stated by many, the substance doesn't matter. The bread or water. I've heard of men serving in war zones who used crackers and soda as their emblems (Heard from one of the men who claims to have done it, and he is trust worthy). It truly is the spirit of the act and not the substance that lends credence to it.


Another thing that lends itself to becoming a stumbling block when ideas become 'traditions'. Take it as a grain of salt and chalk it up to false 'supposed' doctrine.

[AussieOi]

today i just wanted to read
then you hear what that SP says, makes you sick
how can a person have so much authority but so little understanding?
a square of chocolate, a piece of cardboard, white bread, pitta, crackers. it simply doesnt matter
how hard is it for some people to just follow the scripture?
D&C 27: 2 Reads- "For, Behold I say unto you, that it mattereth not what you shall eat or what you shall drink when you partake of the Sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory..........."
id tell that SP to go read the scriptures AND the handbook
the same one that says it is apostate to ask YMen to have one hand behind their back or look a certain way- it specifically says ANYthing that detracts from the simplicity of the ordinance and becomes "pomp" or ceremony is forbidden

passing it is about not detracting from the quiet dignity of the sacrament- NOT ading to it by mechanisms or pomp or white bread or so on

i mean that is just uneducated as much as anything else. does this bozo really think flour is white? maybe he thinks white and sugar comes white?


shaving we've had before in big threads

littlefarm after ALL you have read here, why do you still committ to following leaders as being obedient as being something in itself? we have had 5 years of me and CHH and now Awake and others posting over and over again, that any man who follows because someone else is their leader is a fool.
there is a difference between ones OWN minister (ie their bishop or branch president) offering them rehabilitation program or suggestions. typically it is an unrighteous spiritual bully on a power trip

white shirts? thats context. i dont ever wear a suit to church but i do always wear a white shirt. why? my boys do. why do they, because they can see that sometimes there is nothing wrong with white being a reflection of the purity we seek to aspire to

fortunately their YMP is good and has a positive encouraging approach, and those who dont it is never an issue. they are happy to look like their friends with a clean shirt to pass the sacrament. no jackets before they are adults tho- even they know thats weirdo fundo for kids to be wearing little suit jackets.

but the day my sons are told they HAVE to wear a white i expect they won't out of principle

here's one for discussion. who can tell a Deacon/ Teacher/ Priest how to act/ behave/ wear? a Stake President of a Bishop?

[Eddie Lyle]

I wish we had plain white bread. A brother in our ward gathers stale bread from local stores and brings to church for those who want it. A loaf is usually given to the teachers to prepare for the sacrament. The thing is, about 25% of the time, the bread is moldy. I hate having to spit the bread out and leaving in the middle of the sacrament to go rinse my mouth out so I don't gag. I asked the bishop if I could bring the bread every week to ensure that it was fresh, but he was non committal. Oh well.

I stopped wearing a tie when I was an elder's quorum president for a while. I figured my Joseph F. Smith like beard I had at the time negated a tie's purpose as a decorative article of clothing because you couldn't see it because my beard was so long. The high council member assigned to our ward asked me to start wearing one again. I respected him and so I did so.

I couldn't hardly care less what people wear to church as long as it is clean.

[Fairminded]

Don't have much to say that hasn't already been said, just wanted to express my disgust at the thought of forcing people to eat white bread. Ugh, I can't believe I avoided wheat in favor of it for most of my life, it's horrible.

[HeirofNumenor]

Interesting juxtoposition:

in my stake the Stake President wants all of the young men to wear white shirts with ties. And he wants all of the priesthood holders to wear white shirts as well too. This means that our Stake President wants to be pure and clean and our thoughts also. They are not trying to divert us away from the true gospel but they want us to lead a pure lives and by doing so we have a better understanding why they are leading us.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

***************************

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... hite+shirt
Elder Dallin H. Oaks, General Conference Oct. 2008

What I said earlier about the importance of appropriate dress for those who receive the ordinance of the sacrament obviously applies with special force to the young men of the Aaronic Priesthood who officiate in any part of that sacred ordinance. All should be well-groomed and modestly dressed. There should be nothing about their personal appearance or actions that would call special attention to themselves or distract anyone present from full attention to the worship and covenant making that are the purpose of this sacred service.

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland gave a valuable teaching on this subject in general conference 13 years ago. Since most of our current deacons were not even born when these words were last spoken here, I repeat them for their benefit and that of their parents and teachers: “May I suggest that wherever possible a white shirt be worn by the deacons, teachers, and priests who handle the sacrament. For sacred ordinances in the Church we often use ceremonial clothing, and a white shirt could be seen as a gentle reminder of the white clothing you wore in the baptismal font and an anticipation of the white shirt you will soon wear into the temple and onto your missions” (“This Do in Remembrance of Me,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, 68).

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... hite+shirt
Elder L. Tom Perry, General Conference Oct 2007

It also could include improving your physical appearance. A missionary is expected to dress a certain way, projecting a clean-cut appearance that includes an appropriate haircut; being clean shaven; wearing a clean white shirt, a tie, and a well-pressed suit—all the way down to a good shoe shine. Start now to prepare for a full-time mission by adopting the appearance of a full-time missionary.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... hite+shirt
Elder Russell M. Nelson, General Conference Oct 2010

These profiles can have a profound influence for good. Two months ago a young man named Zac—a freshman in college—saw an ad for mormon.org on television in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. He connected with the Web site and was intrigued by the profiles of Church members. At our Web site he found the link that informed him where he could attend church. The next Sunday, dressed in a white shirt and tie, he attended church, was introduced to members of the ward, and enjoyed all three hours of meetings. He was invited to a member’s home for dinner, followed by his first missionary lesson. In less than two weeks, he was baptized and confirmed as a member of the Church. 21 Welcome, Zac! (He is listening.)

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... hite+shirt
President James E. Faust, General Conference April 2006

I recently read the account of some deacons who got a little careless in their attitude towards passing the sacrament. They began to think of it as a chore, something that no one else wanted to do. They often came in late, and sometimes they didn’t dress appropriately. One Sunday their priesthood adviser told them: “You don’t have to worry about the sacrament today. It’s been taken care of.”

They were, of course, surprised to hear this, but as usual, they were late for sacrament meeting. They slipped in casually during the opening hymn and sat in the congregation. That’s when they noticed who was sitting on the deacons’ bench—their adviser and the high priests of the ward, who included men who had served as bishops and stake president. They were all dressed in dark suits with white shirts and ties. But more than that, their bearing was one of total reverence as they took the sacrament trays from row to row. Something was deeper and more significant about the sacrament that day. Those deacons who had become so perfunctory in their duties learned by example that passing the sacrament was a sacred trust and one of the greatest of honors. 1 They began to realize that the priesthood is, as the Apostle Peter called it, “a royal priesthood.” 2

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... hite+shirt
Elder L. Tom Perry, General Conference April 2006

I remember an experience our family had while on vacation at a resort area. Because the period of our stay included a Sunday, we made arrangements to attend a sacrament meeting at a nearby chapel. So did hundreds of others staying at the resort. The chapel was filled to overflowing. Before the meeting started, the bishop invited any attending deacons who were worthy and properly dressed to participate in the passing of the sacrament. An adequate number, dressed in white shirts and ties, came forward to receive instructions on how to handle such a large congregation. The ordinance was administered reverently and efficiently. As I observed the congregation, I saw that many were deeply moved by the spirit of the meeting.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... hite+shirt
Sister Julie Beck - Relief Society General President, General Conference October 2007

Mothers who know honor sacred ordinances and covenants. I have visited sacrament meetings in some of the poorest places on the earth where mothers have dressed with great care in their Sunday best despite walking for miles on dusty streets and using worn-out public transportation. They bring daughters in clean and ironed dresses with hair brushed to perfection; their sons wear white shirts and ties and have missionary haircuts. These mothers know they are going to sacrament meeting, where covenants are renewed. These mothers have made and honor temple covenants. They know that if they are not pointing their children to the temple, they are not pointing them toward desired eternal goals. These mothers have influence and power.

[HeirofNumenor]

As for white bread - I prefer wheat...and have always brought that when assigned to provide the bread... though if I had to provide it now, I'd get Ezekiel bread, or something more natural and multi-grained

[MelissaM]

My unconverted "rebellious" son wears a blue buttondown shirt to church (LOL! the rebellion is a shirt color- he is still there in the pew). He has been treated badly over it.

We live in small town Utah where everyone is dotting their I's and crossing their T's in obedience to men's demands as stated above.

Pushing a kid right out the door in the demand for "obedience."

Isn't a man's soul worth more than a white shirt?

[tmac]

MM, great point, and that's a point that many seem to miss. Many leaders care more about what's on the outside of the kid (color and style of clothes, etc.), than they do about what's on the inside. I don't have any problem with white shirts and ties per se (although I've rebelled against it in the past) for those who that works for, but I see no point of being pharisaical about it, again elevating form over substance. Why is focusing on spiritual substance such a challenge for people, both now and throughout time?

[ATL Wake]

My unconverted "rebellious" son wears a blue buttondown shirt to church (LOL! the rebellion is a shirt color- he is still there in the pew). He has been treated badly over it.

We live in small town Utah where everyone is dotting their I's and crossing their T's in obedience to men's demands as stated above.

Pushing a kid right out the door in the demand for "obedience."

Isn't a man's soul worth more than a white shirt?

Blue is the symbolic color of the priesthood.

The robe of the High Priest was also blue, again symbolising the close association with God and His Word (Exodus 28:31-33)