How do you deal with a spouse who is Passive Aggressive?

[Kingdom of ZION]

To answer the original question, if you want to know how to deal with a passive aggressive spouse, teach them who they are. Teach them their true role. If you can convince a person of their true role, all unrighteous aggressiveness in any form will disappear.

I have done that and that simply does not do it. A Passive Aggressive person generally has been relating to people this way all their life. They simply do not know any other way. I have known a few PG people that see it as power to get their way and even though they know it hurts people they do it any way. I knew one lady that got pleasure out of the drama and hurting people, she could not help herself from flashing it upon her face one time when I was pointing out to her. So, thinking somehow kind loving words and actions are enough... you just have never had to deal with such beings and everything is just theories until you do.

Shalom

[awake]

Who is the leader in the family? If it's the man, then he is the servant. His role is as a servant to his wife and children.

teach them who they are. Teach them their true role.

Both the woman and the man are the equal 'heads and leaders' of the family, co-presiders and co-presidents, as Elder Perry said (CR Apr. 2004). Neither one is over the other in any way.

I believe each should be each other's servant. And I agree with you that the man is there to above all, support and serve his wife in her high calling and sacrifice of motherhood. If he loves and serves her and fulfills her wishes, then she is asked to do the same for him.

Elder Packer taught that husbands have an equal responsibility to do half of the childcare, meals, housekeeping, etc., along with protecting and providing for the family. But this is often not possible if the man has to work all day to keep food on the table, thus the wife has to just do the best she can until the husband can be home more.

I totally agree that it is absolutely vital for us to realize who we are and our divine roles. That does make all the difference. Though I don't think it's enough to help 'passive aggressive' or 'abusive' spouses repent, for they usually are addicted to the 'perks' they get by doing their destructive behaviors. They even often enjoy hurting others, as strange as that may seem to some. So they usually need outside help and consequences to be motivated to stop their abusive behaviors.

[Juliette]

To answer the original question, if you want to know how to deal with a passive aggressive spouse, teach them who they are. Teach them their true role. If you can convince a person of their true role, all unrighteous aggressiveness in any form will disappear.

I have done that and that simply does not do it. A Passive Aggressive person generally has been relating to people this way all their life. They simply do not know any other way. I have known a few PG people that see it as power to get their way and even though they know it hurts people they do it any way. I knew one lady that got pleasure out of the drama and hurting people, she could not help herself from flashing it upon her face one time when I was pointing out to her. So, thinking somehow kind loving words and actions are enough... you just have never had to deal with such beings and everything is just theories until you do.

Shalom

I agree Kingdom. After my Mother had completely destroyed our family, my Father divorced her and none of her children would or could come around, she came to a realization that perhaps she needed help. My sisters informed her that she needed a psychiatrist and only upon her seeking help, could we begin to be a family again.
She did go to many sessions with a Psychiatrist. He put her on an anti-depressant. After about 4 months she started getting better. It was such a wonderful thing to have her laugh and be somewhat normal. Soon however, she stated, " See, I didn't need that medication, I'm ok"! She stopped her meds and it was back to hurting everyone around her as usual.
You are correct, until you have dealt with such a being, you cannot understand the deepth of the problem. Watching her improve while on medication is one reason I believe in that kind of help.
My Mother died 4 years ago. I have nothing but sweet feelings towards her. I have had a marvelously happy life. My children are outstanding people and I have a very happy marriage. Yesterday was our 36th anniversary! Why would I be angry with her? She is the one who suffered. It did however, take me awhile to come to that realization!

[karen2cruise]

**

[Kingdom of ZION]

to answer the OP. Divorce.

I learned a long time ago, that my wisdom is that of a mortal. The only hope I have of finding the true or correct way is receive personal revelation. In light of not seeking revelation for everything, without seeking to first walk the path and find my own answers. One must be long suffering, patient, have much charity and love. It is then when one wishes to brake the covenant or desire to live apart that I would counsel to then inquire as to His will.

[Kingdom of ZION]

I agree Kingdom. After my Mother had completely destroyed our family, my Father divorced her and none of her children would or could come around, she came to a realization that perhaps she needed help. My sisters informed her that she needed a psychiatrist and only upon her seeking help, could we begin to be a family again.
She did go to many sessions with a Psychiatrist. He put her on an anti-depressant. After about 4 months she started getting better. It was such a wonderful thing to have her laugh and be somewhat normal. Soon however, she stated, " See, I didn't need that medication, I'm ok"! She stopped her meds and it was back to hurting everyone around her as usual.
You are correct, until you have dealt with such a being, you cannot understand the deepth of the problem. Watching her improve while on medication is one reason I believe in that kind of help.
My Mother died 4 years ago. I have nothing but sweet feelings towards her. I have had a marvelously happy life. My children are outstanding people and I have a very happy marriage. Yesterday was our 36th anniversary! Why would I be angry with her? She is the one who suffered. It did however, take me awhile to come to that realization!

Sorry to here about all the sadness you and your family had because of your Mother's Mental Illness. Chemical imbalances are very real. Personality Disorders have their roots many times in dysfunctional childhoods and family life. Yet, some times it is the disposition a person is born with. All these things and more are allowed by Adonai, retardation, down syndrome, and such mentally underdeveloped personalities. They at times are allowed to perfect and pretext that person's eternal progression, while challenging those around them with similar opportunities to grow and be blessed or otherwise. It is a hard thing to know, what is a sin in one person and in the next person, the sin of their parents, or no sin at all... just the way they were born.

Shalom

[Juliette]

to answer the OP. Divorce.

I learned a long time ago, that my wisdom is that of a mortal. The only hope I have of finding the true or correct way is receive personal revelation. In light of not seeking revelation for everything, without seeking to first walk the path and find my own answers. One must be long suffering, patient, have much charity and love. It is then when one wishes to brake the covenant or desire to live apart that I would counsel to then inquire as to His will.

true,

still, passive aggressiveness is one of the worst forms of emotional abuse a person can take. it will crush the well being of any child subjected to this awful form of manipulation, to keep children around such a relationship is to abuse them IMO. to stay close to a person such as this (as in a spousal relationship) is to be abused.

The Lord does not desire us to submerse ourselves in abuse. you can love the person, and support them and such, but not from "within" the relationship. part of the problem with passive aggressiveness is that it cannot, under most circumstances, be addressed, because the abuser rarely admits they are the one with the problem, and they displace all fault on you, and justify all their actions. so normally while you are "waiting patiently and with long suffering" they see you as the problem, and feel it is their DUTY to make your life miserable so you correct yourself to avoid the consequences they impose. so you cannot even begin to make progress.

I agree though that for divorce, you should obtain permission from the Lord.

Brent, you speak as someone who knows. Its difficult to understand unless you have been the brunt of their illness.
They always make you the one at fault. Its called projecting. I was the oldest daughter. Nothing I ever did was correct in her eyes. I would try to please her, actually being more mature than her, when I was just a little girl. I play the piano very well. She would make me play a most difficult song and not let me up till she heard it without one mistake. Even if it was perfect she would say it wasn't. After an hour of this I would just get up and walk away. I was then called hateful, incompetent, and ugly. Then we would move on to some other task that I could not preform with perfection. It went on day after day. You are correct, it is abuse and it is crushing.
As I got older my Grandmother moved from the mountains to the valley for warmer weather. I literally moved in with her. She loved me dearly. My Mother would tell me to come home and my Father would say I could stay. It was the best place for me.
I learned to stand up for myself. ( Sorry folks, haha) I knew I wasn't always wrong. As I got older in high school she would even talk badly about me to my friends. Unbelieveable! I will spare you some of the worst ugly details. The examples given are mild in comparison.
To make a long story short, my sisters and I went to Dr. Don Black for some counseling concerning our Mother. He is a P.H.D. and it helped us understand her.
When my son returned from his mission, the first thing he asked was " How are things going with your Mother"?
He told me that no one should take that kind of abuse. He told me that forgiveness does not require that you remain in the relationship.
He was full of the spirit and understanding. I am thankful I did not inherit this illness. I have stayed close to the gospel because sometimes it was the only thing that made sense to me.
None of us get through life without hardship. I came through this trial and am a stronger person because of it.
I raised a beautiful loving family. My life is happy!

[Thinker]

I agree with Thinker, if you can truly love your spouse, that pure love will be a remedy for them allowing abundant growth and transformation in their life. Not because you need them to grow, but because they know they are free to be true to themselves without being judged. That is why at the feet of our Savior you will feel safe, and be the absolute authentic you.

Yeah, thanks, Rand. Still - easier said than done.
The tough part about dealing with someone who is passive agressive is that they never do anything that you can specifically & clearly indicate as wrong in itself. IE They could say nice words, but how they say it (sarcastically etc.) could be hurtful. Or it could they know something that really ticks you off & they use that as a weapon.

I am nowhere close to mastering my overreactive "ego" when my buttons get pushed, but I am realizing what my buttons are, so I'm more aware. We tend to think others "make" us mad or happy... But it's really our interpretation of what goes on that inspires emotions within us. The only way we can be genuinely loving to others is if we feel love within ourselves (a major life purpose!) & if we try to understand where they're coming from & that if we were in their shoes, we'd might say or do similarly.

[Juliette]

I should be quoting scriptures, but I love this and read it sometimes when I am discourged.

Invictus

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.


William Ernest Henley

[Thinker]

Encouraging poem!
Thanks for sharing it, Julliette.

[EmmaLee]

This is a reply to William Ernest Henley's poem "Invictus." Apostle Orson F. Whitney has a different point-of-view and calls Christ the captain of his soul. It's beautiful....

"The Soul's Captain"
by Elder Orson F. Whitney

Art thou in truth? Then what of Him
Who bought thee with His blood?
Who plunged into devouring seas
And snatched thee from the flood,

Who bore for all our fallen race
What none but Him could bear--
That God who died that man might live
And endless glory share.

Of what avail thy vaunted strength
Apart from His vast might?
Pray that His light may pierce the gloom
That thou mayest see aright.

Men are as bubbles on the wave,
As leaves upon the tree,
Thou, captain of thy soul! Forsooth,
Who gave that place to thee?

Free will is thine- free agency,
To wield for right or wrong;
But thou must answer unto Him
To whom all souls belong.

Bend to the dust that "head unbowed,"
Small part of life's great whole,
And see in Him and Him alone,
The captain of thy soul.

[Juliette]

This is a reply to William Ernest Henley's poem "Invictus." Apostle Orson F. Whitney has a different point-of-view and calls Christ the captain of his soul. It's beautiful....

"The Soul's Captain"
by Elder Orson F. Whitney

Art thou in truth? Then what of Him
Who bought thee with His blood?
Who plunged into devouring seas
And snatched thee from the flood,

Who bore for all our fallen race
What none but Him could bear--
That God who died that man might live
And endless glory share.

Of what avail thy vaunted strength
Apart from His vast might?
Pray that His light may pierce the gloom
That thou mayest see aright.

Men are as bubbles on the wave,
As leaves upon the tree,
Thou, captain of thy soul! Forsooth,
Who gave that place to thee?

Free will is thine- free agency,
To wield for right or wrong;
But thou must answer unto Him
To whom all souls belong.

Bend to the dust that "head unbowed,"
Small part of life's great whole,
And see in Him and Him alone,
The captain of thy soul.

Thanks Stella. I am printing that to read often! I do know who's grace I have received.

[Juliette]

[Islam Convert]

Back to OP



I no "deal" I pray to God and thank God for HE put wonderful SPOUSE into life, you know? God make all type even "passive aggressive" if you can imagine.

[awake]

I no "deal" I pray to God and thank God for HE put wonderful SPOUSE into life, you know? God make all type even "passive aggressive" if you can imagine.

Yes, having a 'passive aggressive' spouse is one of the fastest ways to progress spiritually and perfect our soul, if we are humble enough to love and serve them unconditionally, as Christ does for us.

[Kingdom of ZION]

to answer the OP. Divorce.

I learned a long time ago, that my wisdom is that of a mortal. The only hope I have of finding the true or correct way is receive personal revelation. In light of not seeking revelation for everything, without seeking to first walk the path and find my own answers. One must be long suffering, patient, have much charity and love. It is then when one wishes to brake the covenant or desire to live apart that I would counsel to then inquire as to His will.

true,

still, passive aggressiveness is one of the worst forms of emotional abuse a person can take. it will crush the well being of any child subjected to this awful form of manipulation, to keep children around such a relationship is to abuse them IMO. to stay close to a person such as this (as in a spousal relationship) is to be abused.

The Lord does not desire us to submerse ourselves in abuse. you can love the person, and support them and such, but not from "within" the relationship. part of the problem with passive aggressiveness is that it cannot, under most circumstances, be addressed, because the abuser rarely admits they are the one with the problem, and they displace all fault on you, and justify all their actions. so normally while you are "waiting patiently and with long suffering" they see you as the problem, and feel it is their DUTY to make your life miserable so you correct yourself to avoid the consequences they impose. so you cannot even begin to make progress.

I agree though that for divorce, you should obtain permission from the Lord.

I absolutely agree with you! You must have had first hand experience at one time in your life. Just as a side note... do you always wear so much makeup? :p

[Henry]

Sometimes you can't. Passive aggressive people sometimes become that way through
immunizations that shut down part of their brain dealing with communications and
affection. High functioning autism sometimes masks itself in passive aggressive behavior.
If the focus is on someone else as a problem, they feel more peaceful and less anxious
about themselves and their performance or choices. It is a defensive measure.

Passive Aggressives are crazy making. When it is your spouse there is no option to not deal
with it... Keep a journal for long term sanity's sake.

[Rob]

Interesting theory, Henry. Where did you hear/read that?

[Henry]

experience

[Alpine]

This is a topic of some interest to me lately. I am coming at it from a slightly different angle though. I seem to be somewhat immune to Passive/Aggressives. They do enter my life occasionally but usually it does not take too long before they become frustrated with their inability to manipulate me and start issuing ultimatums. I must change to suit them or else! I am not impressed with threats so I let them leave. Sometimes dramatically some times not. That means my experience is somewhat limited.

I am not going to offer solutions because I have none but I wanted to reframe the problem a little and see how it matches others experiences.

To me a PA seems intensely vulnerable. I imagine the control issues are directly resulting from the desire to be loved but without the confidence that others can voluntarily love them (imperfectly no less) and it be ok. No matter how much you love them they cannot feel secure till they control that love, and thus “prevent” it from being taken away. I would even venture to guess that the worse the behavior is the more the PA actually needs you.

My first question for everyone is what is happening in the relationship with the PA that allows this behavior to continue? Are you (“you”= the victim not necessarily the OP) giving in and allowing the manipulations? How did they start? Was this person always that way? Could you see the manipulations from the start? Are you yourself PA? If you were raised by a PA when did you realize it was unhealthy? I suspect that if the PA feels comfortable behaving that way then they are seeing something in you also (either PA, co-dependancy, etc) I do check with the people that know me best every so often to see it I exhibit those behaviors, but I am usually laughed at and told I am an A/A not a P/A. To be honest though I think any of us can or do have at least a few of those traits. I know I do.

Rereading that last paragraph it may look like I am trying to blame the victim but I am not, I just wonder what the difference is between someone that attracts PA and myself who seems to drive them crazy.

Two examples: 1. I had a roommate sit me down, and with a sympathetic smile reserved for very bad news, told me she was moving out. It seems that I was not being free enough with my stuff. I was not happy about the news but I did not feel in any way responsible either. If she wants to find someone freer with their stuff, more power to her. I figure she can find someone that likes to share more than I do or, heaven forbid, buy her own stuff. 2. Another Roommate wanted me to spend more time with her. (I was working full time, in school and setting up a new home all at the same time.) She would give me the silent treatment for weeks at a time. She finally issued an ultimatum and I allowed her to leave. Again I was not happy she left but I did not take it personally either. Looking back I do think it was meant to be taken personally in both cases. I think I was supposed to feel bad that they were not happy with me. I was supposed to beg them to stay or some such. I did not and do not feel responsible for other people choices, even the way they choose to feel about me or my actions.

In my mind if I arrive late to your birthday party I am being at least a little disrespectful (depending on the type of party etc.) I can feel bad about that. If you choose to lock yourself in your room and cry the rest of the night about it, I do not feel responsible. Your response is out of proportion to the crime committed. Feel free to bring my rudeness to my attention but my ownership of the problem does not extend to your feelings about it.

So for those out there with PA’s in your life, how do/would you feel in the same scenario? Do you accept more responsibility for others emotional states than I do or would you too, shrug it off?

It looks like most people on this thread are of the opinion that suffering or ending the relationship is the only way to handle PA’s but I am inclined to believe that there are other options. I may be overly optimistic though :p

I was lucky that my family was more accepting of my aggressive side (I said more, they were sure not fans) until I learned/am learning more healthy ways of channeling that aggression. It is still there but now it helps fuel my life rather than destroying it. I feel bad for people that did not have that support or example growing up. I wish I could help.

[Kingdom of ZION]

This is a topic of some interest to me lately. I am coming at it from a slightly different angle though. I seem to be somewhat immune to Passive/Aggressives. They do enter my life occasionally but usually it does not take too long before they become frustrated with their inability to manipulate me and start issuing ultimatums. I must change to suit them or else! I am not impressed with threats so I let them leave. Sometimes dramatically some times not. That means my experience is somewhat limited.

KoZ: I have others around me that nothing gets by or unseen. Still, you hope that they will open up their heart and soul when they are treated very differently from how they were raised or interacted with others as an adult. Children are almost always passive aggressive by nature, as in it comes natural and is generally a normal part of growing up. The difference when an adult is PA because they never outgrew that stage of development. Most children find that it does not work to get what they want, and they have to learn better ways to interact and socialize. They find they have to help others get what they need to get some of their needs met. This person, has scares from self inflicted cuts and show how long and deep these problem have been in the pass. They are getting therapy, and hopefully this will help them to have a productive and happy life. It is not as simple as they are broken as a person, therefore they have no value.

I am not going to offer solutions because I have none but I wanted to refrain the problem a little and see how it matches others experiences.

To me a PA seems intensely vulnerable. I imagine the control issues are directly resulting from the desire to be loved but without the confidence that others can voluntarily love them (imperfectly no less) and it be ok. No matter how much you love them they cannot feel secure till they control that love, and thus “prevent” it from being taken away. I would even venture to guess that the worse the behavior is the more the PA actually needs you.

KoZ: You are right on on the control issue. Not so much that they need anyone... as they are only looking into it to get their own needs met and they believe their own lies. It is not a world of real realities.

My first question for everyone is what is happening in the relationship with the PA that allows this behavior to continue? Are you (“you”= the victim not necessarily the OP) giving in and allowing the manipulations? How did they start? Was this person always that way? Could you see the manipulations from the start? Are you yourself PA? If you were raised by a PA when did you realize it was unhealthy? I suspect that if the PA feels comfortable behaving that way then they are seeing something in you also (either PA, co-dependancy, etc) I do check with the people that know me best every so often to see it I exhibit those behaviors, but I am usually laughed at and told I am an A/A not a P/A. To be honest though I think any of us can or do have at least a few of those traits. I know I do.

KoZ: I could see the behavior but you think to yourself that it is just immaturity and if I helped them to see it, that they could out grow it. I have found that only 20% or less of the time you can get a AG person to see it. Yes, everyone has some aspects of may healthy and not so healthy behaviors. It is when one or two get out of balance or becomes passive aggressive disorder. It is caused by covert abuse, and I see that was present in their childhood. This is not totally their fault but it is THEM that have to fix it. There are learned tools, treatments, and counseling that can help.

Rereading that last paragraph it may look like I am trying to blame the victim but I am not, I just wonder what the difference is between someone that attracts PA and myself who seems to drive them crazy.

KoZ: How you deal with them... I am learning what I need to do, or am not willing to do anymore.

Two examples: 1. I had a roommate sit me down, and with a sympathetic smile reserved for very bad news, told me she was moving out. It seems that I was not being free enough with my stuff. I was not happy about the news but I did not feel in any way responsible either. If she wants to find someone freer with their stuff, more power to her. I figure she can find someone that likes to share more than I do or, heaven forbid, buy her own stuff. 2. Another Roommate wanted me to spend more time with her. (I was working full time, in school and setting up a new home all at the same time.) She would give me the silent treatment for weeks at a time. She finally issued an ultimatum and I allowed her to leave. Again I was not happy she left but I did not take it personally either. Looking back I do think it was meant to be taken personally in both cases. I think I was supposed to feel bad that they were not happy with me. I was supposed to beg them to stay or some such. I did not and do not feel responsible for other people choices, even the way they choose to feel about me or my actions.

KoZ: That is a big part about trying to make them own their own actions and results from them. They want to manipulate you into doing what they want rather than honestly just asking and risking that they might be told no.

In my mind if I arrive late to your birthday party I am being at least a little disrespectful (depending on the type of party etc.) I can feel bad about that. If you choose to lock yourself in your room and cry the rest of the night about it, I do not feel responsible. Your response is out of proportion to the crime committed. Feel free to bring my rudeness to my attention but my ownership of the problem does not extend to your feelings about it.

KoZ: I agree, no one makes anyone else act out.

So for those out there with PA’s in your life, how do/would you feel in the same scenario? Do you accept more responsibility for others emotional states than I do or would you too, shrug it off?

KoZ: I shrug it off, that only makes them mad, it still does not correct the bad behavior and I do not like confrontations so I just let them set in their room and sulk. That is what I am learning... I must preside and step through the confrontations to correct the behavior.

It looks like most people on this thread are of the opinion that suffering or ending the relationship is the only way to handle PA’s but I am inclined to believe that there are other options. I may be overly optimistic though :p

KoZ: Maybe... I believe you have to remove that kind of spirit and contention eventually from your home. If you have done everything in your power to fix the problems, then a time eventually come when you need to let that person work on it themselves.

I was lucky that my family was more accepting of my aggressive side (I said more, they were sure not fans) until I learned/am learning more healthy ways of channeling that aggression. It is still there but now it helps fuel my life rather than destroying it. I feel bad for people that did not have that support or example growing up. I wish I could help.

KoZ: Thank you... I am glad you are able to see your issues and are working on them that is all we all can do. Just out of curiosity... are you a Red Head?

[Alpine]

I agree that both you hope they will open up and that a PA adult seems to have not outgrown that stage. The problem is that they only seem to stay with people that can’t help them. (Well in my world anyway) I try to model better behavior but that is about all I can really do. I do get hesitant holding myself up as any kind of example though, I know how flawed I am . Still I feel that my calling in life it to learn and then teach. I hope it is ok to be flawed and still teach.

I really makes me sad to see people locked up this way. Unable to make those honest connections with others. They seem to lack any real joy in life. Some of these people are stellar people. As I have seen some of these people leave my world I truly mourn their loss. I don’t know how to keep them other than submitting to their manipulations and then I am not helping them.

Having said that I am still pondering Awakes post

I believe Christ understood this type of spouse and instructed us on how to deal with them, or with any spouse with any problem.

"Love your enemies, do good to them who despitefully use you and persecute you"...

I believe that such spouse's give us an opportunity to grow by leaps and bounds when we choose to unconditionally love them and serve their every wish all day long, before our own needs and desires. (unless a request is evil).

It's vital that we also lovingly ask our spouse for what 'we' want and need from them. But whether they fulfill our wishes or not, we should fulfill theirs with love.

Think and read about Ammon and how he so faithfully served the wishes of the wicked King Lamoni and how it eventually softened his heart.

I believe total submission, love and service to our spouse, are the keys to helping such a spouse repent and learn to want to love and serve us in return, as we do them, though our love and service may not soften their hearts until even the next life.

If a spouse is dangerous, their spouse may need to love and serve them as best they can, from a safe distance though, until they repent.

At first this sounded super passive to me but having thought about it I wonder if it is not actually the stronger path? It takes guts and a lot of internal fortitude to let someone take advantage of you and still love them unconditionally. To be abused and maintain your emotional integrity is a tough feat. I don't believe that we should put ourselves in real danger but I know I can handle a lot more than I usually do before I am in any real trouble.

So maybe I am actually weaker by being "tough" or "cold" and letting such people leave me, knowing I could help them?

P.S. KoZ I am not a real redhead, I do tend to dye red though

[awake]

At first this sounded super passive to me but having thought about it I wonder if it is not actually the stronger path? It takes guts and a lot of internal fortitude to let someone take advantage of you and still love them unconditionally. To be abused and maintain your emotional integrity is a tough feat. I don't believe that we should put ourselves in real danger but I know I can handle a lot more than I usually do before I am in any real trouble.

So maybe I am actually weaker by being "tough" or "cold" and letting such people leave me, knowing I could help them?

Yes, it is the stronger path, it is not for the faint hearted. Loving a spouse unconditionally causes us to grow stronger spiritually, but that doesn't mean it won't be physically taxing and emotionally painful, for sacrifice and service often require suffering, even though we grow spiritually by leaps and bounds.

And as you have found out, we can increase our ability to 'handle' a lot more than we thought or used to, by exercising our spiritual and emotional muscles. And I believe we can become weaker by being 'cold' and choosing to not love a spouse unconditionally.

But I do believe this applies to 'spouses' and not necessarily to dating partners. For we must choose wisely while dating and never date or marry someone who is disrespectful to us in any way. But once we make a lifelong or eternal covenant to someone in marriage, the game changes and we must prove the unconditional love we vowed. We must expect that our spouse could fall, sin or change and persecute us at some point, and then we should be prepared to lovingly help them repent, for as long as that may take. Though we should protect ourselves as necessary, until they do repent.

[Alpine]

I have been pondering this some more. I'll start by saying that getting into such a situation on purpose is unwise as per Awake's comment about dating etc. I also think Awake may be the smartest of all of us here

Now my thoughts are these. We Americans or those of similar cultural sentiments, take everything and try to norm it. We have done this with fast food and we have done it with houses, clothing, music, ad nauseum. We have done it with people too. The anger we feel with each other often comes from a place of frustration with the other person not acting the way they "should." We have been talking about "passive aggressive" which usually has "disorder" attached to the end of the "diagnosis." What we have done here is take one way of being, and made it wrong. I am not saying that it is ok to be that way just that "we" the "rest of the people" just determined that someone was wrong. We made a judgment. We may want to reconsider that judgment, after all we all have things we do that do not conform to the "norms."

I think one of our big stumbling blocks is that we are too quick to point out the moat in someone else's eyes when suffering the beam in our own. I test positive for Asperger's. It really bothers me when people tell me that my way of thinking is wrong just because it is in the minority. (yet I am ok telling other they are wrong??) I do not believe that we, collectively, are served best by conformity of thought or that God messed up when he made us in all our diversity. So this is a long way of saying that our whole way of thinking about "disorders" may be preventing us from ever solving the problems. As long as we see that person as wrong and ourselves as right we can't bridge the gap. I am willing to bet that if we learn the correct ways of dealing with each other we will see a significant decrease in the "problem behaviors."

I believe we should learn to treat that person the way they need to be treated not the way we want to treat them. The golden rule: Luke 6:31 "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." We tend to see the golden rule as "treat people the way I want them to treat me" rather than "treat them the way they want/need to be treated. If you were to take that mentality and apply it, you would have people treating you the way they want to be treated rather than treating you the way you want to be treated. etc but reverse it and you have others treating you the way you want to be treated and you treating them the way they want to be treated etc, More of a pay it forward thing.

Who among us does not want to be treated with more patience, forgiveness, humility, love, kindness, charity, good humor, acceptance, desire, generosity etc?

I have yet to truly change the way I think/ handle things but I have been pushed in this direction several times. Someday I hope I make it practice rather than just semi-intellectual bumblings. :-s

Some more and highly educational verses from Luke 6:

27 ¶But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and blend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

I hope that as I learn to live this way I will naturally look for the positives in people rather than gravitating to the negatives.

[Kingdom of ZION]

I believe Christ understood this type of spouse and instructed us on how to deal with them, or with any spouse with any problem.

"Love your enemies, do good to them who despitefully use you and persecute you"...

I believe that such spouse's give us an opportunity to grow by leaps and bounds when we choose to unconditionally love them and serve their every wish all day long, before our own needs and desires. (unless a request is evil).

It's vital that we also lovingly ask our spouse for what 'we' want and need from them. But whether they fulfill our wishes or not, we should fulfill theirs with love.

Think and read about Ammon and how he so faithfully served the wishes of the wicked King Lamoni and how it eventually softened his heart.

I believe total submission, love and service to our spouse, are the keys to helping such a spouse repent and learn to want to love and serve us in return, as we do them, though our love and service may not soften their hearts until even the next life.

If a spouse is dangerous, their spouse may need to love and serve them as best they can, from a safe distance though, until they repent.

At first this sounded super passive to me but having thought about it I wonder if it is not actually the stronger path? It takes guts and a lot of internal fortitude to let someone take advantage of you and still love them unconditionally. To be abused and maintain your emotional integrity is a tough feat. I don't believe that we should put ourselves in real danger but I know I can handle a lot more than I usually do before I am in any real trouble.

So maybe I am actually weaker by being "tough" or "cold" and letting such people leave me, knowing I could help them?

There is a point of need and truth that simply being "patient and long-suffering" cannot serve when dealing with a PA spouse. I am not saying to be cruel, cold, inconsiderate, or unloving to a PA spouse. I would not condone that. However, a marriage is a covenant relationship for both parties, and also involves the life, growth, and happiness of everyone else in that family. If you bring up a situation where the TRUTH of what is going on and how it is effecting others with that PA spouse, there WILL be conflict. It WILL cause pain, but truth often requires that someone be willing to deal with that need in spite of the conflict that will ensue. If you have children or other members of the family, you cannot simply sit back (well meaning or not) and allow an PA spouse to act out on them. THAT would not be the "stronger path" in my opinion. There is a NEED to deal (as directly and lovingly as possible) with the issues and behaviors at hand.

A major problem is that the PA spouse often gets an "emotional pay-off" from the unavoidable conflict that comes with the confrontation. Why is it unavoidable? Because blame and confrontation is how PA's, when pushed to deal with their behaviors and issues, attempt to control the situation and avoid any personal accountability. It ends up being a perpetual circle in which the relationship can gain little, if any, progress. Its fairly impossible to get real with someone who denies reality, to get close to someone who shuts you out or uses your feelings for them to "punish you" on a whim, or to trust someone who never seems to tell you the truth about what's going on on their side of the relationship.

You know, you can OFFER love, understanding, trust, and closeness forever. And it sounds like a few of the opinions on this topic line lean toward believing that that is what should be done in a marriage to a PA spouse. What you cannot do is make another person RECEIVE anything. Even Christ, though He loves us dearly, can only stand at the door and knock. WE must OPEN that door or no salvation reaches us no matter how great the grace is which offers it. I would like to mention that it is an all-to-often seen pitfall in relationships where one spouse is being abused by the other's behavior, to think that "Maybe if I just try to love them better, sacrifice more, or change myself to be more of what they want... they will stop". Don't get me wrong. I'm all there for trying to resolve issues and comply to changes and requests which are righteous ones. That is how any and all progress is made between people in a marriage. But for those who think that unconditional love means continuing to abide in a covenant which the PA spouse avoids living up to, by refusing to deal with the issues which make living up to it impossible for them, I would beg to differ. Like I said before, no divorce or dissolution of a covenant relationship should be done rashly or taken lightly.

Shalom