Poll on the Ancient Cumorah of the Nephite Destruction

[Helaman]

I would like to get a feel on this forum for where people are at on the subject of Book of Mormon Geography, so I created this poll.

A number of theories have existed for a while about the land of the Nephites in the United States of America since the late 1980's, the pioneering one being probably the one in Delbert Curtis' book Christ in North America.

As some of you know, I was the author that wrote This Land: Zarahemla and the Nephite Nation with Wayne May, that contained the original "Heartland" theory for the Book of Mormon in April 2002. I didn't specifically invent the idea (Duane Erickson did, but his theory was a lot different than mine in a number of ways, and to my knowledge, he did not publish a book that was popularized, although he did publish papers in newsletters and so forth). But I brought various attributes together for that theory in the This Land book that hadn't been thought of that way before. Not long after that, the partnership between May and myself was severed for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was the fact that I rejected the Michigan Tablets after it came to my attention that BYU did tests on them that found them to be fraudulent.

Rod Meldrum and others afterward went on to base their own theories off of the theory presented in the first This Land book, and then Wayne May went off to do other books in the This Land series on his own, without my participation.

Later on in 2004, I changed my mind about the heartland theory, and went back to a theory with Cumorah in New York and Mesoamerica as the land of Zarahemla. And then I wrote the book Resurrecting Cumorah, which was finally published last year, that takes on the Mesoamerican Cumorah theory head on (and I think it is the first book to do so, without trying to resort to the old "prophets said so" argument). Resurrecting Cumorah was actually my own sequel to the first This Land book because I did not participate in Wayne May's sequels to it.

Anyway, I would like to see where people are at on the issue of Cumorah, so please respond if you would. As I said in another topic, I am looking to create a new association that does podcasts, conferences and journals and so forth, and I am looking for allies that would want to participate in doing that, who want to deal with issues such as Book of Mormon Geography, and whatever else, to get the word out about other points of view that the LDS intellectual establishment tries to censor.

Ed Goble

[marc]

Based on Joseph Smith's testimonies, I believe it is the same Cumorah in New York, although I reject the heartland model. Regardless, as much as I used to preoccupy myself with geography as a gospel hobby, as evidenced in another discussion, I no longer concern myself with it. It just isn't important to me.

A. Testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith, JSH-1:51-52 “Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth.

Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger. The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them..."

B. D&C 128:20 20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!

[durangout]

Based on Joseph Smith's testimonies, I believe it is the same Cumorah in New York, although I reject the heartland model. Regardless, as much as I used to preoccupy myself with geography as a gospel hobby, as evidenced in another discussion, I no longer concern myself with it. It just isn't important to me.

A. Testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith, JSH-1:51-52 “Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth.

Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger. The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them..."

B. D&C 128:20 20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!

Coachmarc:

I'm curious why such a dramtic change and in such a short time with you on this subject? You seemed VERY invested personally with this subject. Thanks.

[HeirofNumenor]

I have never felt at ease with the North American model (admittedly, I have not studied it much)...

I flat-out reject the exclusively Central America/S. Mexico model pushed by FARMS/John Sorenson, as well as Lehi's family joining with/dominating previously existing peoples (those that came via Alaska ice bridge, not talking about possible - however unlikely -remnants of Jaredites)
Though I agree that at least the Mayans likely built over the ruins of earlier buildings...

BTW, I prefer Hugh Nibley's idea (The World of the Jaredites) that Jaredites came from Siberia, through the North Pacific, and landed on west coast of Mexico, somewhere between Mazatlan and Acapulco (no, they did not party on the beach with Cabana boys and girls :p ), instead of coming through the Mediterranean and landing on the Gulf Coast of Mexico (spring break in Cancun? - NOT!)

Overall I like best the hemispheric model - with the narrow neck being Panama...though that seems ultimately unworkable...or maybe that is just FARMS speaking...

One theory that still has credibility to me is the narrow neck being in Ecuador....reasons being:
-At the ground-breaking for the Bogota Columbia Temple, the GA presided stated that there was a Nephite civilization in that valley (yes/no?)
-Not long after the Nephites separated from the Lamanites, the BofM listed that they had Gold, Silver, AND COPPER in abundance...while these three are found in the western USA (never seemingly a part of N. America theories), copper certainly is not abundant in Central America....
-Also, they seeds they brought from Jerusalem grew exceedingly well in the Promised land...they came from Jerusalem - a Mediterranean climate. For the seeds to grow, you'd think they needed to be in the same type climate (without modern engineering). What other places on earth have Mediterranean climates? South Africa, Perth Australia, Southern California, and Peru-Northern Chile - just where Joseph Smith "supposedly" said Lehi landed (I know, Frederick G. William's handwriting)

The land northward lacking timber and building houses out of cement however makes me think of either Peru (wrong direction to be land northward), Mexico City - northwards & Baja Coast/Gulf of California (Mexican Rivera again - those Nephites sure partied!), or else SouthWest USA deserts (allowing for Hopis, Zunis, Peublos)....

In the end, another gospel hobby (precise location) unimportant to our salvation, but still needing enough (scattered) evidence to hopefully hush some critics, and cause others to to read the BofM and come unto Christ...

[LukeAir2008]

There could be two Hill Cumorahs. We know from Mormon 6 that Mormon hid all the sacred records in a Hill called Cumorah except for the 'few plates' - the Book of Mormon - which he gave to his Son, Moroni. Moroni then added his own record and an abridgement of the Jaredite records and then later hid them.

We have no record of where Moroni hid them except that we know that he fled for his life and hid himself to escape death.

Did the Lord lead him to the place where the Prophet of the Restoration would be born and raised. Did Moroni travel northward to what today is New York State and buried the records there naming the hill after the hill where his father had buried the rest of the sacred records - Cumorah.

[HeirofNumenor]

There could be two Hill Cumorahs. We know from Mormon 6 that Mormon hid all the sacred records in a Hill called Cumorah except for the 'few plates' - the Book of Mormon - which he gave to his Son, Moroni. Moroni then added his own record and an abridgement of the Jaredite records and then later hid them.

We have no record of where Moroni hid them except that we know that he fled for his life and hid himself to escape death.

Did the Lord lead him to the place where the Prophet of the Restoration would be born and raised. Did Moroni travel northward to what today is New York State and buried the records there naming the hill after the hill where his father had buried the rest of the sacred records - Cumorah.

One thing to consider is that Moroni spent 36 years (at least that he stated in the BofM) between the Battle at Cumorah, and when he buried the plates...
I have no clue as to where he spent that time...wandering up & down the N. American continent, hanging out in the general area of the battle - all the while eluding Lamanties, or some combination of the tow (battle...wander the continent, come back 36 years later to buy the plates).

[marc]

Coachmarc:

I'm curious why such a dramtic change and in such a short time with you on this subject? You seemed VERY invested personally with this subject. Thanks.

As much as I love the Book of Mormon, and as much as I have read it in my life, I came to realize that I had begun to place far too great an emphasis on placing locations, etc relative to each other to create a greater context for the stories that I love reading about, especially the travels of the sons of Mosiah and the work of Alma and Amulek along with the wars and contentions between Lamanites and Nephites led by Captains Moroni, Helaman, Lehi and Teancum. I had planned on creating a blog with maps, campaigns, etc. But I realized that my focus was on the wrong things. I then started on focusing more on my relationship with my Savior and it has yielded far greater fruits. I still enjoy visualizing the landscapes, geographies, etc, but I have simply decided not to let this interfere with what is more important. Sunken pyramids and structures in the Caribbean are just not as important to me as the principles of the gospel that I am trying to apply to keeping my eye single to the Glory of the Lord. Besides, that, it all really is for the most part little more than conjecture.

[BroJones]

I do think it is important to keep in mind that we KNOW the geographical location of the great meeting soon coming at Adam-ondi-Ahman, as well as the location of the New Jerusalem center in Jackson County. These are important geographical locations, IMO.

I love to visit AOA! what great events have and yet will transpire there.

[Helaman]

Overall I like best the hemispheric model - with the narrow neck being Panama...though that seems ultimately unworkable...or maybe that is just FARMS speaking...

IMHO, what is workable is to give FARMS' theory credit where it is solid (i.e. no vast distances in the urban area of Zarahemla between cities under the Narrow Neck of land, and placing Zarahemla in the region of the urban society of ancient america), but to throw out what the FARMS' theory is bad at (i.e. Land Northward issues where the book of Mormon clearly indicates there ARE vast distances.) So, a modification on the hemispherical model which actually goes along with the Book of Mormon description of the Land Northward (i.e. northward of the Narrow Neck), AND preserving the Cumorah in New York tradition, is the semi-hemispherical theory, of Cumorah in New York, and narrow neck/zarahemla in Mesoamerica. It takes all the good from everywhere, and throws out all the bad from everywhere, and it puts all the good together, circumscribed into, errrrrrrr.... all one thing. Wouldn't want to quote something that I hadn't ought to here.... Oh, and incidentally, also, the northern nephite domain is their second heartland, rather than being their primary heartland.... So it even gives credit where the Heartland theory has it right, that there was a Nephite heartland in the United States, with Cumorah in its rural backyard..

[marc]

Now wouldn't it be something if much of the Caribbean was once land, more particularly Nephite/Lamanite land, which once connected with Florida? That would change almost everyone's paradigm!

I'm outta here.

[HeirofNumenor]

*sniff* Didn't ANY of Lehi's descendants end up in South America? (

[marc]

According to Joseph Smith, Lehi landed just south of the Isthmus of Darien and the City of Zarahemla is in modern day Guatemala.

[BroJones]

According to Joseph Smith, Lehi landed just south of the Isthmus of Darien and the City of Zarahemla is in modern day Guatemala.

This I object to -- unless you can provide clear and unambiguous quotes of Joseph Smith saying these things. I don't think he did, and I have studied the issue. But the burden is on you to either provide references WITH QUOTATIONS OF THE PROPHET'S WORDS to substantiate your statments, or stop putting words in the mouth of the Prophet.

[marc]

According to Joseph Smith, Lehi landed just south of the Isthmus of Darien and the City of Zarahemla is in modern day Guatemala.

This I object to -- unless you can provide clear and unambiguous quotes of Joseph Smith saying these things. I don't think he did, and I have studied the issue. But the burden is on you to either provide references WITH QUOTATIONS OF THE PROPHET'S WORDS to substantiate your statments, or stop putting words in the mouth of the Prophet.

Oh dear, I'm letting myself get sucked back in...

Now obviously I wasn't around when Joseph Smith produced the articles, so I can only go by what has been written (assuming Joseph truly did write them).

Joseph Smith, Editor of Times and Seasons, p. 927 under the heading, Zarahemla: shortly before going into hiding and no longer able to personally be involved with the editorial: "...we have found another important fact relating to the truth of the Book of Mormon. Central America, or Guatimala [Guatemala], is situated north of the Isthmus of Darien and once embraced several hundred miles of territory from north to south.-The city of Zarahemla, burnt at the crucifixion of the Savior, and rebuilt afterwards, stood upon this land..." http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v3n23.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Joseph Smith, Editor of Times and Seasons, p. 922 under the heading, Facts are stubborn things: "When we read in the Book of Mormon that Jared and his brother came on to this continent from the confusion and scattering at the Tower, and lived here more than a thousand years, and covered the whole continent from sea to sea, with towns and cities; and that Lehi went down by the Red Sea to the great Southern Ocean, and crossed over to this land and landed a little south of the Isthmus of Darien, and improved the country according to the word of the Lord, as a branch of the house of Israel, and then read such a goodly traditionary account, as the one below, we can not but think the Lord has a hand in bringing to pass his strange act, and proving the Book of Mormon true in the eyes of all the people." http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v3n22.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BroJones]

According to Joseph Smith, Lehi landed just south of the Isthmus of Darien and the City of Zarahemla is in modern day Guatemala.

This I object to -- unless you can provide clear and unambiguous quotes of Joseph Smith saying these things. I don't think he did, and I have studied the issue. But the burden is on you to either provide references WITH QUOTATIONS OF THE PROPHET'S WORDS to substantiate your statments, or stop putting words in the mouth of the Prophet.

Oh dear, I'm letting myself get sucked back in...

Now obviously I wasn't around when Joseph Smith produced the articles, so I can only go by what has been written (assuming Joseph truly did write them).

Joseph Smith, Editor of Times and Seasons, p. 927 under the heading, Zarahemla: shortly before going into hiding and no longer able to personally be involved with the editorial: "...we have found another important fact relating to the truth of the Book of Mormon. Central America, or Guatimala [Guatemala], is situated north of the Isthmus of Darien and once embraced several hundred miles of territory from north to south.-The city of Zarahemla, burnt at the crucifixion of the Savior, and rebuilt afterwards, stood upon this land..." http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v3n23.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Joseph Smith, Editor of Times and Seasons, p. 922 under the heading, Facts are stubborn things: "When we read in the Book of Mormon that Jared and his brother came on to this continent from the confusion and scattering at the Tower, and lived here more than a thousand years, and covered the whole continent from sea to sea, with towns and cities; and that Lehi went down by the Red Sea to the great Southern Ocean, and crossed over to this land and landed a little south of the Isthmus of Darien, and improved the country according to the word of the Lord, as a branch of the house of Israel, and then read such a goodly traditionary account, as the one below, we can not but think the Lord has a hand in bringing to pass his strange act, and proving the Book of Mormon true in the eyes of all the people." http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v3n22.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Joseph Smith's name was NOT on these writings -- these were editorials without his name attached, and I have read the discussion on these. The author is not unamiguous. You cannot say Joseph wrote these -- indeed, the timing of their publication was such that Joseph was in prison when they appeared, IIRC.

[marc]

In each editorial, the following was included:

The Times and Seasons, Is edited, printed and published about the first and fifteenth of every month, on the corner of Water and Bain Streets, Nauvoo, County, Illinois, by JOSEPH SMITH

TERMS.-Two dollars per annum, payable in all cases in advance. Any person procuring five new subscribers, and forwarding us Ten Dollars current money, shall receive one volume gratis. All letters must be addressed to Joseph Smith, publisher, POST PAID, or they will not receive attention.

I am no authority on its authenticity, etc. And yes, anyone could have put Joseph's name on anything. On this, I completely agree.

[BroJones]

Come now -- are you unaware of the prior discussion of the authorship of these Times and Seasons editorials, on which Joseph Smith's name does NOT explicitly appear?

And -- do you agree that the authorship of them is ambiguous?

[marc]

Apologies. What I am saying is that I agree with you. I should originally have said, "Supposedly, according to Joseph Smith..."

Just another reason why I stopped making this a gospel hobby.

[SirExcedrin]

Hi everyone! new guy here. I'll throw in on this subject with my opinion that it is pretty much a fruitless attempt to match BoM locations with today's geology. It seems that the earth has had a history of cataclysmic events that may take us quite a while to reconstruct back to BoM times. I mean, it's like trying to locate Plato's lost continent of Atlantis, or trying to locate today's America based upon my journal found by someone in the future after some monster cataclysmic pole shift that has created tectonic events, floods and sinking large chunks of America into deep oceanic abyss. And if you want to get even stranger, then consider dimensional shifts or even parallel universes or alternate timelines; Consider events like the city of enoch taking away large tracts of land. There are just too many possibilities here. Any of these wild events would leave scattered evidence, but drive any investigator insane trying for an exact match with the text.

[marc]

And 3 Nephi 8 is proof/evidence of major cataclysmic events.

[BroJones]

Apologies. What I am saying is that I agree with you. I should originally have said, "Supposedly, according to Joseph Smith..."

OK.
I'm awaiting the revelation of the sealed portion, which I suspect will give us all the answers we need in this regard -- and much more important matters as well!

We still believe that this sealed portion will be given to us someday, don't we? (Ether 4 etc)

[marc]

Absolutely! But not only do I hunger and thirst for the sealed portion, but also all records ever written by Nephites and Lamanites. There were wagonloads. I am particularly curious about the people of Ammon who kept their own record. There's just so much to learn and appreciate.