Post-Calling&Election Feedback

[sonofliberty]

Yikes!!! I am going to stop seeking for my C&E right now. Way to dangerous. I know that Joseph "admonished" us to GO ON UNTIL we have made our Calling & Election sure, but jeeze he must not have realized just how dangerous that could be. I think I'll go ahead and keep sucking on my bottle of milk where it is safe and warm and cozy and all is well. :-ss

Raindrop this is not directed towards you. This is toward this insidious attitude everywhere that keeps us all stuck right where satan would have us.

=)) :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

I don't think Raindrop, Helaman, Legion or myself have ever said that there was anything wrong with individuals seeking to have their C&EMS ... I cannot speak for them, but I have merely been pointing out that I find it perplexing that so many people on here are quick to cite to and defend Denver Snuffer yet are silent when it comes to defending the current leadership of the Church from criticizm - especially when Denver Snuffer is the one criticizing them. The scriptures and modern day prophets (from Joseph Smith on down) have warned against this. Also, while it is true that Joseph Smith and other prophets have shared that they have had their C&EMS, they were Prophets called to do so. We were under their stewardship. I also don't believe I have ever read any of them go into significant detail about their personal experiences in obtaining this blessing. Definitely not enough to make up an entire book on the subject, and they were called and ordained of God to declare his word to the world. Denver Snuffer is not. He may claim that he was commanded of God to write his book and to share his experiences to help others in obtaining the same, but keep in mind what the scriptures and Prophets have told us.

“Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church” (D&C 42:11).

Therefore, let us beware of false prophets and false teachers, both men and women, who are self-appointed declarers of the doctrines of the Church and who seek to spread their false gospel and attract followers by sponsoring symposia, books, and journals whose contents challenge fundamental doctrines of the Church. Beware of those who speak and publish in opposition to God’s true prophets and who actively proselyte others with reckless disregard for the eternal well-being of those whom they seduce. Like Nehor and Korihor in the Book of Mormon, they rely on sophistry to deceive and entice others to their views. They “set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion” (2 Ne. 26:29). - Elder Ballard, General Conference October 1999 http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I suggest reading this http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/four ... he-prophet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In February 1980, President Ezra Taft Benson stated the following:

"To help you pass the crucial tests which lie ahead, I am going to give you today several aspects of a grand key which, if you will honor, will crown you with God’s glory and bring you out victorious in spite of Satan’s fury ... Here then is the grand key—Follow the prophet—and here are fourteen fundamentals in following the prophet, the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.

5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.

7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.

9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.

11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.

14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer."

and this

"I repeat for emphasis that all who have been ordained to the holy apostleship have had bestowed upon them the keys and the authority of this most high and sacred office. In this authority reside the powers of governance of the Church and kingdom of God in the earth. There is order in the exercise of that authority. It is specifically set forth in the revelations of the Lord. It is known to all of the Brethren and is observed by all.

Now brethren, let it be understood by all that Jesus Christ stands at the head of this church which bears His sacred name. He is watching over it. He is guiding it. Standing at the right hand of His Father, He directs this work. His is the prerogative, the power, the option to call men in His way to high and sacred offices and to release them according to His will by calling them home. He is the Master of life and death.

Let not any voices of discontent disturb you. Let not the critics worry you. As Alma declared long ago, “Trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments” (Mosiah 23:14).

The truth is in this church. The authority is in this priesthood. The leadership is in this great body of priesthood at every level of governance. As the Psalmist declared: “Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep” (Ps. 121:4).

He who is our Savior slumbers not nor sleeps as He watches over this His kingdom.

As surely as this is the work of the Lord, there will be opposition. There will be those, perhaps not a few, who with the sophistry of beguiling words and clever design will spread doubt and seek to undermine the foundation on which this cause is established. They will have their brief day in the sun. They may have for a brief season the plaudits of the doubters and the skeptics and the critics. But they will fade and be forgotten as have their kind in the past.

Meanwhile, we shall go forward, regardless of their criticism, aware of but undeterred by their statements and actions." President Gordon B. Hinckley, General Conference April 1994 http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... m?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tmac]

I didn't realize this thread had anything to do with Denver Snuffer. There are a couple other threads devoted exclusively to debating pros and cons associated with him. What does this thread have to do with him?

[reese]

Yikes!!! I am going to stop seeking for my C&E right now. Way to dangerous. I know that Joseph "admonished" us to GO ON UNTIL we have made our Calling & Election sure, but jeeze he must not have realized just how dangerous that could be. I think I'll go ahead and keep sucking on my bottle of milk where it is safe and warm and cozy and all is well. :-ss

Raindrop this is not directed towards you. This is toward this insidious attitude everywhere that keeps us all stuck right where satan would have us.

=)) :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

I don't think Raindrop, Helaman, Legion or myself have ever said that there was anything wrong with individuals seeking to have their C&EMS ... I cannot speak for them, but I have merely been pointing out that I find it perplexing that so many people on here are quick to cite to and defend Denver Snuffer yet are silent when it comes to defending the current leadership of the Church from criticizm - especially when Denver Snuffer is the one criticizing them. The scriptures and modern day prophets (from Joseph Smith on down) have warned against this. Also, while it is true that Joseph Smith and other prophets have shared that they have had their C&EMS, they were Prophets called to do so. We were under their stewardship. I also don't believe I have ever read any of them go into significant detail about their personal experiences in obtaining this blessing. Definitely not enough to make up an entire book on the subject, and they were called and ordained of God to declare his word to the world. Denver Snuffer is not. He may claim that he was commanded of God to write his book and to share his experiences to help others in obtaining the same, but keep in mind what the scriptures and Prophets have told us.

“Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church” (D&C 42:11).

Therefore, let us beware of false prophets and false teachers, both men and women, who are self-appointed declarers of the doctrines of the Church and who seek to spread their false gospel and attract followers by sponsoring symposia, books, and journals whose contents challenge fundamental doctrines of the Church. Beware of those who speak and publish in opposition to God’s true prophets and who actively proselyte others with reckless disregard for the eternal well-being of those whom they seduce. Like Nehor and Korihor in the Book of Mormon, they rely on sophistry to deceive and entice others to their views. They “set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion” (2 Ne. 26:29). - Elder Ballard, General Conference October 1999 http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I suggest reading this http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/four ... he-prophet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In February 1980, President Ezra Taft Benson stated the following:

"To help you pass the crucial tests which lie ahead, I am going to give you today several aspects of a grand key which, if you will honor, will crown you with God’s glory and bring you out victorious in spite of Satan’s fury ... Here then is the grand key—Follow the prophet—and here are fourteen fundamentals in following the prophet, the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.

5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.

7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.

9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.

11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.

14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer."

and this

"I repeat for emphasis that all who have been ordained to the holy apostleship have had bestowed upon them the keys and the authority of this most high and sacred office. In this authority reside the powers of governance of the Church and kingdom of God in the earth. There is order in the exercise of that authority. It is specifically set forth in the revelations of the Lord. It is known to all of the Brethren and is observed by all.

Now brethren, let it be understood by all that Jesus Christ stands at the head of this church which bears His sacred name. He is watching over it. He is guiding it. Standing at the right hand of His Father, He directs this work. His is the prerogative, the power, the option to call men in His way to high and sacred offices and to release them according to His will by calling them home. He is the Master of life and death.

Let not any voices of discontent disturb you. Let not the critics worry you. As Alma declared long ago, “Trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments” (Mosiah 23:14).

The truth is in this church. The authority is in this priesthood. The leadership is in this great body of priesthood at every level of governance. As the Psalmist declared: “Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep” (Ps. 121:4).

He who is our Savior slumbers not nor sleeps as He watches over this His kingdom.

As surely as this is the work of the Lord, there will be opposition. There will be those, perhaps not a few, who with the sophistry of beguiling words and clever design will spread doubt and seek to undermine the foundation on which this cause is established. They will have their brief day in the sun. They may have for a brief season the plaudits of the doubters and the skeptics and the critics. But they will fade and be forgotten as have their kind in the past.

Meanwhile, we shall go forward, regardless of their criticism, aware of but undeterred by their statements and actions." President Gordon B. Hinckley, General Conference April 1994 http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... m?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks sonofliberty. For a minute there I was really thinking of seeking after my C&E, because of reading the works of Denver Snuffer and the likes of him. But you have clearly shown by your words here that I should do nothing of the sort. Wow! I can't believe I was almost deceived by someone like Denver Snuffer...preaching all of the false doctrine that he does. #:-s I think I'll definitely wait until the current prophet admonishes me to do it.

[AGStacker]

My father told me that an angel appeared unto him. I believe it 100%!

Him and his buddy were Catholics growing up. I don't believe they were active but nonetheless Catholic. They were both of Italian ancestry. Both of their parents had divorced. My father especially had a hard time with this not ever being able to have a real relationship with his real father. My grandmother left him for another man when my dad was 2 or 3. I have seen the amount of blessings and watching overs my dad has received from Heavenly Father. I think it breaks Heavenly Father's heart when His children grow up not knowing or being able to have a true relationship with their parents.

Either way, they were both attending college in Michigan and my dad at one point became a Baptist. This means so much to me that my father naturally had the light of Christ and knew there was something more out there. Eventually he met the missionaries and began taking the lessons. His friend already decided to get baptized but my father hadn't decided yet.

It was either early one morning or late one night and my dad was still not certain about getting baptized. He said the next thing that happened was a bright personage appeared outside of his window. That's it. The angelic being said nothing but because of his appearance my dad knew that he should be baptized. I have no doubt that this event took place.

It makes me feel good to know that God would send a messenger to my father. Why doesn't this happen to everyone? I don't know but what I do know is that my father wouldn't have 6 children with my mother and I wouldn't be born! Maybe my brothers and sisters and I have some important work to do. Maybe it was because Heavenly Father shows more mercy to those who never had their real father or mother. I don't know but I definitely believe in visitations.

[Jason]

After the true saints receive and enjoy the gift of the Holy Ghost; after they know how to attune themselves to the voice of the Spirit; after they mature spiritually so that they see visions, work miracles, and entertain angels; after they make their calling and election sure and prove themselves worthy of every trust—after all this and more—it becomes their right and privilege to see the Lord and commune with him face to face. Revelations, visions, angelic visitations, the rending of the heavens, and appearances among men of the Lord himself—all these things are for all of the faithful. They are not reserved for apostles and prophets only. God is no respecter of persons. They are not reserved for one age only, or for a select lineage or people. We are all our Father's children. All men are welcome. "And he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." (2 Ne. 26:33.)

That is a sweet quote from Elder McConkie via his book "Promised Messiah"....subsequently utilized and quoted by John Pontius. Of course there is a timing component to that as well which is evident in Elder McConkie's own personal change concerning blacks in the priesthood. One also discussed at length in our most recent conference by Elder Christofferson.

In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, “we believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (Articles of Faith 1:9). This is to say that while there is much we do not yet know, the truths and doctrine we have received have come and will continue to come by divine revelation. In some faith traditions, theologians claim equal teaching authority with the ecclesiastical hierarchy, and doctrinal matters may become a contest of opinions between them. Some rely on the ecumenical councils of the Middle Ages and their creeds. Others place primary emphasis on the reasoning of post-apostolic theologians or on biblical hermeneutics and exegesis. We value scholarship that enhances understanding, but in the Church today, just as anciently, establishing the doctrine of Christ or correcting doctrinal deviations is a matter of divine revelation to those the Lord endows with apostolic authority.2

In 1954, President J. Reuben Clark Jr., then a counselor in the First Presidency, explained how doctrine is promulgated in the Church and the preeminent role of the President of the Church. Speaking of members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, he stated: “[We] should [bear] in mind that some of the General Authorities have had assigned to them a special calling; they possess a special gift; they are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators, which gives them a special spiritual endowment in connection with their teaching of the people. They have the right, the power, and authority to declare the mind and will of God to his people, subject to the over-all power and authority of the President of the Church. Others of the General Authorities are not given this special spiritual endowment and authority covering their teaching; they have a resulting limitation, and the resulting limitation upon their power and authority in teaching applies to every other officer and member of the Church, for none of them is spiritually endowed as a prophet, seer, and revelator. Furthermore, as just indicated, the President of the Church has a further and special spiritual endowment in this respect, for he is the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator for the whole Church.”3

How does the Savior reveal His will and doctrine to prophets, seers, and revelators? He may act by messenger or in His own person. He may speak by His own voice or by the voice of the Holy Spirit—a communication of Spirit to spirit that may be expressed in words or in feelings that convey understanding beyond words (see 1 Nephi 17:45; D&C 9:8). He may direct Himself to His servants individually or acting in council (see 3 Nephi 27:1–8).

I cite two illustrations from the New Testament. The first was a revelation directed to the head of the Church. Early in the book of Acts, we find the Apostles of Christ declaring the gospel message only to Jews, following the pattern of Jesus’s ministry (see Matthew 15:24), but now, in the Lord’s timetable, the time had come for a change. In Joppa, Peter had a dream in which he saw a variety of animals lowered to earth from heaven in “a great sheet knit at the four corners” (Acts 10:11) and was commanded to “kill, and eat” (Acts 10:13). Peter was reluctant since at least some of the animals were “unclean” under the law of Moses, and Peter had never violated the commandment against eating such. Nevertheless, the voice said to Peter in his dream, “What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common” (Acts 10:15).

The meaning of this dream became clear when soon afterward, several men sent from the Roman centurion Cornelius arrived at Peter’s lodging with a request that he come teach their master. Cornelius had gathered a sizable group of relatives and friends, and finding them expectantly waiting to receive his message, Peter said:

“God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. …

“… Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

“But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him” (Acts 10:28, 34–35; see also verses 17–24).

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

“And they [who accompanied Peter] were astonished … because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

“… Then answered Peter,

“Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?” (Acts 10:44–47).

By this experience and revelation to Peter, the Lord modified the practice of the Church and revealed a more complete doctrinal understanding to His disciples. And so the preaching of the gospel expanded to encompass all mankind.

Later in the book of Acts, we find another somewhat related illustration, this time showing how revelation on matters of doctrine may come in a council setting. A controversy arose about whether circumcision required under the law of Moses should carry over as a commandment in the gospel and Church of Christ (see Acts 15:1, 5). “And the apostles and elders came together for to consider … this matter” (Acts 15:6). Our record of this council is certainly incomplete, but we are told that after “much disputing” (Acts 15:7), Peter, the senior Apostle, rose up and declared what the Holy Spirit had confirmed to him. He reminded the council that when the gospel began to be preached to the uncircumcised Gentiles in the house of Cornelius, they received the Holy Ghost just as had the circumcised Jewish converts. God, he said, “put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

“Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

“But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they” (Acts 15:9–11; see also verse 8).

After Paul, Barnabas, and perhaps others spoke in support of Peter’s declaration, James moved that the decision be implemented by letter to the Church, and the council was united “with one accord” (Acts 15:25; see also verses 12–23). In the letter announcing their decision, the Apostles said, “It seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us” (Acts 15:28), or in other words, this decision came by divine revelation through the Holy Spirit.

These same patterns are followed today in the restored Church of Jesus Christ. The President of the Church may announce or interpret doctrines based on revelation to him (see, for example, D&C 138). Doctrinal exposition may also come through the combined council of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (see, for example, Official Declaration 2). Council deliberations will often include a weighing of canonized scriptures, the teachings of Church leaders, and past practice. But in the end, just as in the New Testament Church, the objective is not simply consensus among council members but revelation from God. It is a process involving both reason and faith for obtaining the mind and will of the Lord.4

At the same time it should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.”5 President Clark, quoted earlier, observed:

“To this point runs a simple story my father told me as a boy, I do not know on what authority, but it illustrates the point. His story was that during the excitement incident to the coming of [Johnston’s] Army, Brother Brigham preached to the people in a morning meeting a sermon vibrant with defiance to the approaching army, and declaring an intention to oppose and drive them back. In the afternoon meeting he arose and said that Brigham Young had been talking in the morning, but the Lord was going to talk now. He then delivered an address, the tempo of which was the opposite from the morning talk. …

“… The Church will know by the testimony of the Holy Ghost in the body of the members, whether the brethren in voicing their views are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost’; and in due time that knowledge will be made manifest.”6

The Prophet Joseph Smith confirmed the Savior’s central role in our doctrine in one definitive sentence: “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”7 Joseph Smith’s testimony of Jesus is that He lives, “for [he] saw him, even on the right hand of God; and [he] heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father” (D&C 76:23; see also verse 22). I appeal to all who hear or read this message to seek through prayer and study of the scriptures that same witness of the divine character, the Atonement, and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Accept His doctrine by repenting, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and then throughout your life following the laws and covenants of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... t?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[shestalou]

I am very much interested in this subject and was very surprised at some of the reactions by some, personal revelation at times is so exciting that we do share some extraordinary stories and sometimes a forum like this is easier to share them, we all know that the Prophet is the only one to speak for the church as a whole but personal revelation we hopefully as members of the true church recieve, I think we should be more supportive regarding them as fellow saints. I love to hear them and cant wait to recieve my C&E.

[Gad]

I am very much interested in this subject and was very surprised at some of the reactions by some, personal revelation at times is so exciting that we do share some extraordinary stories and sometimes a forum like this is easier to share them, we all know that the Prophet is the only one to speak for the church as a whole but personal revelation we hopefully as members of the true church recieve, I think we should be more supportive regarding them as fellow saints. I love to hear them and cant wait to recieve my C&E.

+1

[swiftbrook]

I get what you're saying reese.

I was actually hoping someone would at least have one example of someone they knew personally who had not "crashed and burned" after talking about their C&E. I know there's the obvious authors out there... but I guess no one knows anyone on a personal level who's remained faithful...? I find that interesting... in a weird way...

If it offends someone that so many people leave the Church once they (supposedly) have their C&E... I don't know what to say about that. Apparently, it is what it is.

I'm not judging anyone, just trying to discuss this "trend" I see. Can we discuss why so many people who've allegedly received their C&E leave the Church? Or do you people (who like to say how much you pursue the tough questions) not want to "go there"? Are all the crash and burn victims simply deceived? Are there rampant visions of Satan masquerading as an angel of light? What's going on here?

I'm not going to read this whole thread, but before I navigate away I will say that I know a handful of people who have received their C&E and none of them have left the Church.

[Lee]

The vast majority of CEers who I know, keep it to themselves. Those who are open about it generally get excommunicated. Their CEer friends warn them that the general Church membership is not ready to hear that a non general authority can have the amazing experiences of CE and 2nd Comforter. But the new CEer can't comprehend that this could be true in the Lord's Church, so he/she just keeps on sharing his/her stories...Let's get real here. If some guy/gal gets up in testimony meeting and tells about how he received his CE and regularly sees angels, most people in the congregation will be uncomfortable and consequently he/she will be asked by the leadership to not talk about such things. If he/she persists, a disciplinary council will ensue. I have seen this repeatedly. It is commonly our [myself included] nature to look askance at people who claim such outlandish things because it just doesn't seem proper.

Now, imagine if your spouse made such claims, or one of your parents or children. It could put a major strain on your relationship. Let's get graphic for a minute: You're Abraham, and your wife finds out that the Lord has told you to sacrifice Isaac. She calls the stake president, you are not going to remain in the Church. CEers live in a world of consecration wherein they are asked to do and say things that are not required of the everyday run of the mill "Mormon." They may lose their marriage, their Church membership, everything that they find dear as part of their test to show that they are willing to be obedient no matter what. If you are not able to put everything on the line, you are not ready to receive your CE. This can be terrifying, but it is true.
Okay, another example: You're Joseph Smith and you are commanded to take another wife. This put a definite strain on his marriage. Emma openly decried this inspiration. Is your test of life going to be any easier if you are valiant enough to receive your CE? NO!
What could possibly be your trial? It will be what you need. It will be whatever will help you take that leap of spirituality from being a Latter-day Saint to becoming a member of the Church of the Firstborn. Most of us want to be members of both, and most CEers truly are. But we do not judge those who lose their family or their LDS membership, because we know very well that it is a life of consecration that does not begin and end with one humongous test; and it may not be compatible with LDS membership. Did you realize that Abraham received his CE when he was sacrificed by pharaoh's priest? His missions to Canaan and Egypt and the sacrificing of Isaac were continuations of his consecration. He was the nutcase of his era who publicly changed his name to mean "father of many." It was not an easy life. Yet we judge him today to be the fulfillment of that name change. If I changed my legal name to "Father of Many," and I only had one son, you know I would be a nut job-the bishop would keep a close eye on me.
The cool thing about these forums is that a CEer can talk somewhat openly without danger of losing his/her family or Church membership. It is however common to lose forum privileges. As the Millennium opens, it will become more accepted in the Church and at some point, hopefully not too far distant, the local Church leaders will have the courage that President Marion G. Romney had when he challenged the members to receive their CE from the pulpit. [Google "The Light of Christ," by Marion G. Romney].
So there you have it from a nut job who sees angels regularly and is an active temple recommend holding Latter-day Saint, whose bishop and fellow members have no clue that he is a CEer, although they may see something different [I prefer to think of myself as not "nutty," but perhaps a little crunchy] ;-D
I suppose it may give credence to my post to inform you that I have served as bishop repeatedly and am keenly aware of the goings on in stake and ward leadership. I love the Church and see it fulfilling its mission to bring all mankind unto Christ. I am first to admit that Church leaders are not perfect, but I also testify that the Lord runs his Church in spite of the imperfections of his local leaders. As a bishop, I was always amazed at how the Lord worked his miracles through me even though I was on a different page.
Another side note. In my current ward, I have identified six CEers. Four are couples who have their CE together. One is a married man whose marriage is not stable. One is an elderly spinster who has never been married. We have never even mentioned our CE status with each other, but we know each other-it is evident to us who we are. Interestingly, we are all over 60, but I received my CE when I was 49. It is not unheard of to receive one's CE as a youth on a mission, but generally it is the older, more seasoned people that receive it. As more and more valiant spirits come to earth, this will change dramatically. I hope that you who read this post will consider yourself one of those valiant spirits who allows himself/herself to live the consecrated life.

[marc]

In a former ward of mine, a very spiritual high priest and a brother that I loved, bore an emotional testimony and also shared with us that, and I quote, "I have seen my Savior." His wife was sitting next to him and they were happily married, devoted members of the church. He was a faithful member to his last day.

[mattctr]

I personally know of death-and-back experiences that involved meeting Christ, the Second Comforter. I know of visions, visitations of angels, and Calling and Election words being uttered to the heart and mind. I've been told by one person that C&E can come in waves, with an inkling or whisper at first that leads to a revelation, which finally led to an undeniable confirmation that added greater insight and context to other, earlier preparatory experiences like visions, dreams, and angelic ministrations. In all of these cases, which I am thinking about, the people have remained faithful Mormons -- even if they had a discernibly different attitude about them. They didn't "fit in" the cool crowd at church much, but they served quietly and effectively, preferring background roles.

[awake]

They may lose their marriage, their Church membership, everything that they find dear as part of their test to show that they are willing to be obedient no matter what. If you are not able to put everything on the line, you are not ready to receive your CE. This can be terrifying, but it is true.

I agree that we have to be willing to lose everything to gain Eternal Life, Joseph Smith even talks about this in his Lectures on Faith. Our unrighteous spouse may leave us or the Church may correctly or incorrectly ex us, but God will never ask or want us to do anything that is contrary to what the scriptures teach.

Joseph Smith understood and taught that the way to tell a false angel or a false Christ is by if they teach doctrine 'contrary' to previous 'true' revelation or contrary to what the scriptures teach.

I believe many people are falling for false Christ's today who teach things that are against the scriptures. Heavenly Father never contradicts himself, his doctrines always stay the same, they do not vary or change.

I don't believe anyone who believes in polygamy has really had their calling and election made sure.

[gruden2.0]

I was actually hoping someone would at least have one example of someone they knew personally who had not "crashed and burned" after talking about their C&E. I know there's the obvious authors out there... but I guess no one knows anyone on a personal level who's remained faithful...? I find that interesting... in a weird way...

If it offends someone that so many people leave the Church once they (supposedly) have their C&E... I don't know what to say about that. Apparently, it is what it is.

I'm not judging anyone, just trying to discuss this "trend" I see. Can we discuss why so many people who've allegedly received their C&E leave the Church? Or do you people (who like to say how much you pursue the tough questions) not want to "go there"? Are all the crash and burn victims simply deceived? Are there rampant visions of Satan masquerading as an angel of light? What's going on here?

There's an old adage: Those that tell don't know, and those that know don't tell. That seems to be an operating principle when it comes to CEMS. The only credible claim I"ve found is that link above to unblogmysoul, which is an anonymous person. I would take your aforementioned examples with a massive grain of salt.

[gruden2.0]

For a minute there I was really thinking of seeking after my C&E, because of reading the works of Denver Snuffer and the likes of him. But you have clearly shown by your words here that I should do nothing of the sort. Wow! I can't believe I was almost deceived by someone like Denver Snuffer...preaching all of the false doctrine that he does. #:-s I think I'll definitely wait until the current prophet admonishes me to do it.

Interestingly, GA Mark E. Peterson had supposedly said that the Second Comforter applied only to those that were pure Israelite, because Christ's personal ministrations applied only to them, and not to the Gentile (LDS) church.

If one is waiting for a GC talk encouraging us to seek such things, we'll be waiting a long time. That's one of the teachings of Joseph Smith that has basically been dropped by correlation.

[marc]

For a minute there I was really thinking of seeking after my C&E, because of reading the works of Denver Snuffer and the likes of him. But you have clearly shown by your words here that I should do nothing of the sort. Wow! I can't believe I was almost deceived by someone like Denver Snuffer...preaching all of the false doctrine that he does. #:-s I think I'll definitely wait until the current prophet admonishes me to do it.

Interestingly, GA Mark E. Peterson had supposedly said that the Second Comforter applied only to those that were pure Israelite, because Christ's personal ministrations applied only to them, and not to the Gentile (LDS) church.

If one is waiting for a GC talk encouraging us to seek such things, we'll be waiting a long time. That's one of the teachings of Joseph Smith that has basically been dropped by correlation.

Ask and ye shall receive. From a General Authority in the '70's.

The Light of Christ

By Marion G. Romney

[gruden2.0]

The vast majority of CEers who I know, keep it to themselves. Those who are open about it generally get excommunicated. Their CEer friends warn them that the general Church membership is not ready to hear that a non general authority can have the amazing experiences of CE and 2nd Comforter. But the new CEer can't comprehend that this could be true in the Lord's Church, so he/she just keeps on sharing his/her stories...Let's get real here. If some guy/gal gets up in testimony meeting and tells about how he received his CE and regularly sees angels, most people in the congregation will be uncomfortable and consequently he/she will be asked by the leadership to not talk about such things. If he/she persists, a disciplinary council will ensue. I have seen this repeatedly. It is commonly our [myself included] nature to look askance at people who claim such outlandish things because it just doesn't seem proper.

Sadly you are right. Our stake patriarch once stood up to give a talk in our ward about ministering angels and the whole congregation pretty much locked-up tight. I tried to bring up the subject later that day during an HT visit and the couple quickly changed the subject. I don't know what has happened to us, since this kind of thing was commonly spoken of in earlier days. Our hardened hearts and lack of faith are killing us.

Thanks for sharing.

[gruden2.0]

I don't believe anyone who believes in polygamy has really had their calling and election made sure.

Joseph Smith did. Does that count?

[gruden2.0]

Ask and ye shall receive. From a General Authority in the '70's.

The Light of Christ

By Marion G. Romney

Thanks, that's great stuff, but that was 35 years ago. Got anything more recent?

[awake]

If one is waiting for a GC talk encouraging us to seek such things, we'll be waiting a long time. That's one of the teachings of Joseph Smith that has basically been dropped by correlation.

Yes, it does seem like they don't focus on teaching us to become spiritually independent and become worthy to receive our own personal instruction directly from Christ.

I have noticed that most church leaders I have known don't like or accept it when you go over their heads for enlightenment, especially if they don't agree with what you've been told by higher authority.

[awake]

I don't believe anyone who believes in polygamy has really had their calling and election made sure.

Joseph Smith did. Does that count?

Actually he constantly taught that he didn't believe in it. And I believe him.

[marc]

Ask and ye shall receive. From a General Authority in the '70's.

The Light of Christ

By Marion G. Romney

Thanks, that's great stuff, but that was 35 years ago. Got anything more recent?

I'm not finished with the 70's Ensign Magazines. If I find something more recent, I'll definitely share, although I seriously doubt there will be anything new. Same principles apply today as they did with Joseph Smith, Nephi, Moses, Moriancumr...

[durangout]

[quote="sonoflibertyI don't think Raindrop, Helaman, Legion or myself have ever said that there was anything wrong with individuals seeking to have their C&EMS (your and others' thoughts have been taken out of context and misrepresented to rationalize their position. No, no one has ever said anything at all like don't seek The Gift).... I cannot speak for them, but I have merely been pointing out that I find it perplexing that so many people on here are quick to cite to and defend Denver Snuffer yet are silent when it comes to defending the current leadership of the Church from criticizm - especially when Denver Snuffer is the one criticizing them. [/quote]

You ment this question rhetorically, I mean you do know the aswer to this question don't you?

[Lee]

Concerning modern-day general conference talks that refer to CE, other than Marion G. Romney: they do not speak specifically and pointedly about this like he did. If you will read my post in the topic : “The Fastest Way to Receive Your Calling and Election Made Sure,” you will hopefully find convincing evidence that every conference is centered on this topic. How can that be? Every Conference hammers scripture study and personal revelation. My own experience came as a result of listening to the Book of Mormon, D&C, and New Testament on tape as I commuted each day. I recognized the unique spirit in the BoM and inserted it in between listening to the other scriptures. Over 20 years, I listened to the BoM some 60 times. The daily dose of scripture put me in a unique position of constantly rubbing shoulders with people [in the scriptures] who saw angels and the Savior and received constant personal revelation. Over time, I saw my thinking change-it was not just a remote possibility that I would receive my CE; it was a fact.
I am a very hard nut-taking so many years to crack-to open my heart to CE. I can’t imagine that most people would have to take so long as they persistently study the scriptures and seek personal revelation. The purpose of these posts is to help people see that this is a real possibility and that many are and will receive it. If you study the BoM, you will find that one of the main themes is about how various people received their CE. I documented this quite extensively in the afore-mentioned post.
Elder Scott has twice in conference talks referred to how he pursues personal revelation by writing it down and asking for more revelation. This is the way we receive our CE. This is his way of teaching us how to make the journey. Elder Bednar wrote Increase in Learning, a basic handbook on how to receive personal revelation. This is the only way to receive CE. The temple endowment is simply a class on how to make the journey back to the presence of the Savior.
The point is that if we simply follow what the Church leaders teach, we are destined to receive CE. It is really that simple. It is a journey of individually based rigor and duration. I encourage you to check out my post in “The Fastest Way to Receive Your Calling and Election Made Sure.” It goes extensively on how the mission of the Church is to literally bring all men unto Christ [CE]. Hopefully you can see that the Church constantly teaches us to reach for CE even though it is not taught specifically and openly.

[gruden2.0]

I don't believe anyone who believes in polygamy has really had their calling and election made sure.

Joseph Smith did. Does that count?

Actually he constantly taught that he didn't believe in it. And I believe him.

“Blessed are ye,” said the Lord to the Prophet early on, “even if they do unto you even as they have done unto me, . . . for you shall dwell with me in glory.” In 1843 the Prophet recorded the Lord’s words addressed to him: “I seal upon you your exaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your father.”

That's Calling & Election made sure for Joseph right there.

And... Joseph had about 33 wives. When the RLDS church tried to state this wasn't so, Joseph F. Smith collected affavits from the women living in Utah that had been sealed to him. A few even stated they had borne a child to him under different family names. Joseph denied it for the sake of expediency and legal reasons. It's very well documented by many that he had multiple wives. Joseph also performed the second anointing to many of the apostles who would soon enter polygamy under Joseph's direction, sealing them to exaltation.

[durangout]

Concerning modern-day general conference talks that refer to CE, other than Marion G. Romney: they do not speak specifically and pointedly about this like he did. If you will read my post in the topic : “The Fastest Way to Receive Your Calling and Election Made Sure,” you will hopefully find convincing evidence that every conference is centered on this topic. How can that be? Every Conference hammers scripture study and personal revelation. My own experience came as a result of listening to the Book of Mormon, D&C, and New Testament on tape as I commuted each day. I recognized the unique spirit in the BoM and inserted it in between listening to the other scriptures. Over 20 years, I listened to the BoM some 60 times. The daily dose of scripture put me in a unique position of constantly rubbing shoulders with people [in the scriptures] who saw angels and the Savior and received constant personal revelation. Over time, I saw my thinking change-it was not just a remote possibility that I would receive my CE; it was a fact.
I am a very hard nut-taking so many years to crack-to open my heart to CE. I can’t imagine that most people would have to take so long as they persistently study the scriptures and seek personal revelation. The purpose of these posts is to help people see that this is a real possibility and that many are and will receive it. If you study the BoM, you will find that one of the main themes is about how various people received their CE. I documented this quite extensively in the afore-mentioned post.
Elder Scott has twice in conference talks referred to how he pursues personal revelation by writing it down and asking for more revelation. This is the way we receive our CE. This is his way of teaching us how to make the journey. Elder Bednar wrote Increase in Learning, a basic handbook on how to receive personal revelation. This is the only way to receive CE. The temple endowment is simply a class on how to make the journey back to the presence of the Savior.
The point is that if we simply follow what the Church leaders teach, we are destined to receive CE. It is really that simple. It is a journey of individually based rigor and duration. I encourage you to check out my post in “The Fastest Way to Receive Your Calling and Election Made Sure.” It goes extensively on how the mission of the Church is to literally bring all men unto Christ [CE]. Hopefully you can see that the Church constantly teaches us to reach for CE even though it is not taught specifically and openly.

bttt