Post-Calling&Election Feedback

[Raindrop]

It seems many people have known others who have or have claimed to have their C&E. I'm curious what has become of these people over the years.

Here are the folks I've known:

1. Woman, mother of 15. Started holding meetings at her home to discuss the deep things. Eventually her "wonderful" husband, who had the Tree of Life vision among other things, and she were divorced. She has left the Church.

2. Man, middle-aged, 11 children. Very thoughtful person, always reading. Ended up leaving his wife and kids, moved to Missouri to be with a more "like-minded" quasi-LDS group.

[durangout]

It seems many people have known others who have or have claimed to have their C&E. I'm curious what has become of these people over the years.

Here are the folks I've known:

1. Woman, mother of 15. Started holding meetings at her home to discuss the deep things. Eventually her "wonderful" husband, who had the Tree of Life vision among other things, and she were divorced. She has left the Church.

2. Man, middle-aged, 11 children. Very thoughtful person, always reading. Ended up leaving his wife and kids, moved to Missouri to be with a more "like-minded" quasi-LDS group.

I NEVER would have seen THAT coming!

[Raindrop]

Well... I was just thinking about it.... Someone on here was saying the people he knew who had claimed to see Jesus or have their C&E (I guess we can include both scenarios) had left the Church or gone apostate. I was wondering if this were the common result of those who are (admittedly) talking about it. Or... if there are people here who know others with such experiences who have remained mainstream faithful. (I don't want to include examples from people we don't know personally.. and it's all anonymous like I tried to be above.)

Personally, I can recall two people and both of them divorced and left the Church. I don't see that as good results. So what's going on here?

[gkearney]

Perhaps this is the result when people who should have been circumspect and not be talking about holy things do so.

[shestalou]

I am very disapoointed on how harshly judged people are upon this board. I am thankful that only God is my judge he is not as harsh and respects are wishes to obtain eternal exaltation.

[tmac]

Hear, hear Shestalou. You stole the words right out of my mouth, even as I was typing. Thank you.

Here's something to consider:

Lest we become judgmental of our neighbors, or unduly harsh on ourselves, let us observe that opposition is an ordained principle of the divine plan, and not necessarily a result of sin or disobedience. . . . Even when we are faithfully walking the straight and narrow path, we are given serious obstacles and trials to overcome. We must remember that Father has a single purpose in our lives, which is to bring us to exaltation. Anything which moves us nearer that goal is valuable, even pain and suffering. From his divine perspective, worldly possessions, jobs, careers, health, happiness, even life itself, is expendable if the outcome is exaltation. . . . The thing we must remember is that in order for free agency to operate properly, once we attain greater spiritual blessings, we will face greater opposition in equal proportion. . . . When we receive an increase in spiritual blessings, we receive a proportionate increase in opposition. This balance between good and evil is maintained by divine decree. . . . The most difficult, and devastating way to deal with such increased opposition is to press forward into righteousness with all the vigor we possess, without the continued and constant guidance of the Holy Spirit. Increased opposition will arise in accordance with divine law, and without the necessary guidance, we will be battered and buffeted, confused, weakened, and disillusioned. Righteousness will not seem to be worth the price required to gain it. In fact, powerful righteousness cannot be achieved this way, and the price is too high, because we simply are incapable of paying it. This law of opposition, which means the everything good that we attempt or attain will be proportionally opposed, is an ordained and essential part of the plan. . . . Without opposition the plan of salvation would not work. . . . The only way to overcome this opposition is through the grace of God, continued guidance by the Holy Spirit, and recognition and absolute obedience to the promptings of the spirit. . . . When we remain humble, and take the Holy Spirit as our guide, and are absolutely obedience to the promptings of the spirit, it is this ever-widening gap between good and evil which finally exalts. We become increasingly more obedient to God, and subsequently, magnificently powerful, despite the opposition which becomes equally intense. When we, through the grace of Jesus Christ, do finally overcome, the victory is won at great cost, against overbearing odds, and the victor's crown is received with humility, and worn with elegance and grace. Were it not so, the victory would be shallow, and lack eternal significance. . . . The trials and trauma of life are essential to our growth. We acquire most of our strength of character through the things that we suffer.

There's the old saying about not judging others until we have walked in their shoes. I'm sure glad that God (and not our neighbors and fellow men) is the final judge.

[tmac]

I also want to offer this additional commentary, which seems to have some bearing on this subject:

When a person is sanctified, they become pure and spotless, washed clean by the atoning blood of Christ, having their garments made white. They become purified by fire and the Holy Ghost. Sanctification eventually makes a person worthy to stand in the presence of God.

Even after enjoying a degree of sanctification through the rebirth [BFHG], or [later] calling and election, we will be mortal still, and subject to temptation and opposition of all types. We will have become pure, cleansed and holy -- not perfect. Whether a person long endures this state of sanctification depends entirely on their capacity to continue to obey the promptings of the Holy Spirit, which may at times become fainter and fainter -- all to test how closely and carefully we are listening.

This truth may distill a degree of hopelessness into some who read it. Hopeless because they fear they may never measure up sufficiently to become pure and spotless. Or fear that once sanctified, they may fall therefrom and condemn themselves. Others may ascribe these perfections and promises to the prophets and assume they are not for the average member.

It is not the Holy Ghost telling them they cannot succeed, nor whispering that these blessings are reserved for a select few. The idea that all would-be saints must become pure and spotless and look upon sin with abhorrence need not make us feel hopeless. Most people know they are neither pure nor spotless, and may actually look upon sin as enticing and desirable -- but forbidden. Except for Jesus Christ, every person who has ever been sanctified felt impure and unworthy. The difference is the sanctified learn to be obedient to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, and thus are led and changed until they became worthy of sanctification.

Be not dismayed by the apparent enormity of the task at hand. All these wonderful changes and purity of purpose begin to happen as a natural consequences of the process of sanctification. We can either attempt to claim this mountain by ourselves -- in which case it is an impossible task -- or we can yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and let the Savior carry us up the mountain in the arms of His love.

[Rand]

I am very disapoointed on how harshly judged people are upon this board. I am thankful that only God is my judge he is not as harsh and respects are wishes to obtain eternal exaltation.

Shestalou, I am surprised by this statement. I didn't see anything judgmental about the comments I read above. They were making observations, but I didn't see condemnation. If we can observe and learn, and if those who make extraordinary claims seem to always crash and burn in their covenant keeping, we can safely surmise that the tendency to claim making is not healthy in our spiritual pursuit.

It would seem to me that you have judged others here as being judgmental. I don't intend to criticize, but it would make your journey here more enjoyable if you didn't see this board as a place of harsh judgment. Blessings.

[sonofliberty]

Hear, hear Shestalou. You stole the words right out of my mouth, even as I was typing. Thank you.

Here's something to consider:

Lest we become judgmental of our neighbors, or unduly harsh on ourselves, let us observe that opposition is an ordained principle of the divine plan, and not necessarily a result of sin or disobedience. . . . Even when we are faithfully walking the straight and narrow path, we are given serious obstacles and trials to overcome. We must remember that Father has a single purpose in our lives, which is to bring us to exaltation. Anything which moves us nearer that goal is valuable, even pain and suffering. From his divine perspective, worldly possessions, jobs, careers, health, happiness, even life itself, is expendable if the outcome is exaltation. . . . The thing we must remember is that in order for free agency to operate properly, once we attain greater spiritual blessings, we will face greater opposition in equal proportion. . . . When we receive an increase in spiritual blessings, we receive a proportionate increase in opposition. This balance between good and evil is maintained by divine decree. . . . The most difficult, and devastating way to deal with such increased opposition is to press forward into righteousness with all the vigor we possess, without the continued and constant guidance of the Holy Spirit. Increased opposition will arise in accordance with divine law, and without the necessary guidance, we will be battered and buffeted, confused, weakened, and disillusioned. Righteousness will not seem to be worth the price required to gain it. In fact, powerful righteousness cannot be achieved this way, and the price is too high, because we simply are incapable of paying it. This law of opposition, which means the everything good that we attempt or attain will be proportionally opposed, is an ordained and essential part of the plan. . . . Without opposition the plan of salvation would not work. . . . The only way to overcome this opposition is through the grace of God, continued guidance by the Holy Spirit, and recognition and absolute obedience to the promptings of the spirit. . . . When we remain humble, and take the Holy Spirit as our guide, and are absolutely obedience to the promptings of the spirit, it is this ever-widening gap between good and evil which finally exalts. We become increasingly more obedient to God, and subsequently, magnificently powerful, despite the opposition which becomes equally intense. When we, through the grace of Jesus Christ, do finally overcome, the victory is won at great cost, against overbearing odds, and the victor's crown is received with humility, and worn with elegance and grace. Were it not so, the victory would be shallow, and lack eternal significance. . . . The trials and trauma of life are essential to our growth. We acquire most of our strength of character through the things that we suffer.

There's the old saying about not judging others until we have walked in their shoes. I'm sure glad that God (and not our neighbors and fellow men) is the final judge.

Source? You are quoting someone or something here ... who or what is it?

[Like]

.

[tmac]

I learned some time ago that so many people are willing to let the messenger get in the way of the message to the point that it's often counterproductive to quote sources. . . . And it's not a new issue -- even the Nephite prophets paid little attention or heed to Samuel the Lamanite and his teachings, and completely failed to mention or record them in their records, and had to be reprimanded by the Savior. Christ experienced exactly the same thing -- the Jews let the lowly messenger get in the way of the message to the point that they completely rejected both. I can't see that we're really much different.

[reese]

It seems many people have known others who have or have claimed to have their C&E. I'm curious what has become of these people over the years.

Here are the folks I've known:

1. Woman, mother of 15. Started holding meetings at her home to discuss the deep things. Eventually her "wonderful" husband, who had the Tree of Life vision among other things, and she were divorced. She has left the Church.

2. Man, middle-aged, 11 children. Very thoughtful person, always reading. Ended up leaving his wife and kids, moved to Missouri to be with a more "like-minded" quasi-LDS group.

Yikes!!! I am going to stop seeking for my C&E right now. Way to dangerous. I know that Joseph "admonished" us to GO ON UNTIL we have made our Calling & Election sure, but jeeze he must not have realized just how dangerous that could be. I think I'll go ahead and keep sucking on my bottle of milk where it is safe and warm and cozy and all is well. :-ss

Raindrop this is not directed towards you. This is toward this insidious attitude everywhere that keeps us all stuck right where satan would have us.

[Raindrop]

I get what you're saying reese.

I was actually hoping someone would at least have one example of someone they knew personally who had not "crashed and burned" after talking about their C&E. I know there's the obvious authors out there... but I guess no one knows anyone on a personal level who's remained faithful...? I find that interesting... in a weird way...

If it offends someone that so many people leave the Church once they (supposedly) have their C&E... I don't know what to say about that. Apparently, it is what it is.

I'm not judging anyone, just trying to discuss this "trend" I see. Can we discuss why so many people who've allegedly received their C&E leave the Church? Or do you people (who like to say how much you pursue the tough questions) not want to "go there"? Are all the crash and burn victims simply deceived? Are there rampant visions of Satan masquerading as an angel of light? What's going on here?

[Gad]

I didn't want to post. The first post and the public forum in general has a spirit of contention and unbelief that drives away many people.

If the examples of the people in the scriptures and the diaries of the early church saints are not enough, then I will add that I know people that have had sought after and received this blessing that have not left the church.

Given how many times this invitation is extended in the Book of Mormon, D&C, Temple, and other places it seems clear to me that the Lord wants to have a people that know Him as well as He knows us.

[Original_Intent]

I get what you're saying reese.

I was actually hoping someone would at least have one example of someone they knew personally who had not "crashed and burned" after talking about their C&E. I know there's the obvious authors out there... but I guess no one knows anyone on a personal level who's remained faithful...? I find that interesting... in a weird way...

If it offends someone that so many people leave the Church once they (supposedly) have their C&E... I don't know what to say about that. Apparently, it is what it is.

I'm not judging anyone, just trying to discuss this "trend" I see. Can we discuss why so many people who've allegedly received their C&E leave the Church? Or do you people (who like to say how much you pursue the tough questions) not want to "go there"? Are all the crash and burn victims simply deceived? Are there rampant visions of Satan masquerading as an angel of light? What's going on here?

I have an uncle who did not publicly make any claim, but to his family told them that he had met Christ. I believe he told them this when he was in his thirties, he is now in his lat eighties and has never left the church and never wavered that I know of. He has definitely had his share of challenges in life, if it happened it certainly was no "free pass" that his trials were over.

The only reason I know is that my mom told me, I am sure that he doesn;t even know that I know, and it is something I have never heard him speak of. And I do not know that it was a C&E experience, just that he said that he had met Christ. I don't know any details or if he shared them with his family.

[Gad]

The only reason I know is that my mom told me, I am sure that he doesn;t even know that I know, and it is something I have never heard him speak of. And I do not know that it was a C&E experience, just that he said that he had met Christ. I don't know any details or if he shared them with his family.

I believe these things would be discussed more often, if it weren't for the amount of disbelief among the "saints". So many people dismiss and neglect the spiritual gifts that most people just keep to themselves. It is really sad, in my opinion.

[reese]

The only reason I know is that my mom told me, I am sure that he doesn;t even know that I know, and it is something I have never heard him speak of. And I do not know that it was a C&E experience, just that he said that he had met Christ. I don't know any details or if he shared them with his family.

I believe these things would be discussed more often, if it weren't for the amount of disbelief among the "saints". So many people dismiss and neglect the spiritual gifts that most people just keep to themselves. It is really sad, in my opinion.

It is sad. I have never met anyone who claims their C&E or who even claims they are seeking it. Up until a year or so ago, I like 99% of the rest of us mormons, believed that it was not something for a little, common member like me.

I think satan has got us right where he wants us. Most don't even think about C&E. The tiny few who do are very skeptical and untrusting. They have heard of many who fall away(except in the scriptures of couse) and so it becomes a very dangerous thing to look into. So we sit still, talking in cirlces about it, never seeking after it because we are too scared. No wonder the Lord says to stand up and make a choice, say your either hot or cold and stop being so wishy-washy and hesitant about everything. Take the risk....we will be damned if we don't.

[Gad]

It is sad. I have never met anyone who claims their C&E or who even claims they are seeking it. Up until a year or so ago, I like 99% of the rest of us mormons, believed that it was not something for a little, common member like me.

I think satan has got us right where he wants us. Most don't even think about C&E. The tiny few who do are very skeptical and untrusting. They have heard of many who fall away(except in the scriptures of couse) and so it becomes a very dangerous thing to look into. So we sit still, talking in cirlces about it, never seeking after it because we are too scared. No wonder the Lord says to stand up and make a choice, say your either hot or cold and stop being so wishy-washy and hesitant about everything. Take the risk....we wil be damned if we don't.

Great point!

Rev 3:15-16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

To those that fear to seek after these things based on the bad examples listed in the thread. Do not take comfort in being lukewarm about the Lord's invitation.

[Tribunal]

There are a number of reasons why those who claim to have received their Calling and Election would leave their family or the Church.

1) They were delusional about their Calling and Election and left the Church because they 'know better'.

2) They were so advanced in their Calling and Election the other members of their family couldn't keep up, and in discouragement, the family broke up.

3) Along with their Calling and Election they were inspired to leave.

[tmac]

Tribunal, you make some very interesting and valid points.

Gaining salvation is an individual quest. If we are blessed enough to have a spouse who is on the same sheet of music, hopefully eventually it will be possible to have our marriage sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

I would venture to say that the number of couples that are on the same sheet of music, spiritually, is a very, very small fraction of all temple-sealed couples. If one spouse makes significant spiritual advances, one of Satan's easiest ploys is to attack the other spouse.

The adversary has so many well-polished tools and weapons in his arsenal that it ill-behooves any of us to attempt to make any kind of observations, let alone judgments regarding these things in the lives of others (let us not forget about motes and beams). Indeed, by falling prey to such judgments we may fall more firmly into the adversary's grasp than all the others who we may claim to be so concerned about.

[Gideon]

I get what you're saying reese.

I was actually hoping someone would at least have one example of someone they knew personally who had not "crashed and burned" after talking about their C&E. I know there's the obvious authors out there... but I guess no one knows anyone on a personal level who's remained faithful...? I find that interesting... in a weird way...

If it offends someone that so many people leave the Church once they (supposedly) have their C&E... I don't know what to say about that. Apparently, it is what it is.

I'm not judging anyone, just trying to discuss this "trend" I see. Can we discuss why so many people who've allegedly received their C&E leave the Church? Or do you people (who like to say how much you pursue the tough questions) not want to "go there"? Are all the crash and burn victims simply deceived? Are there rampant visions of Satan masquerading as an angel of light? What's going on here?

I don't know this person, but I trust John Pontius to be accurate in matters like this. However, he is mortal like the rest of us.
http://unblogmysoul.wordpress.com/2012/ ... -election/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[awake]

2) They were so advanced in their Calling and Election the other members of their family couldn't keep up, and in discouragement, the family broke up.

3) Along with their Calling and Election they were inspired to leave.

Inspired to leave what? The Church or their marriage? While it's possible that they may be told to leave the Church, if, for instance, it had gone astray and apostatized, for there is no guarantee it can't, but I don't believe anyone would ever be inspired to leave their marriage, unless they needed safety from a dangerous spouse, until that spouse repented.

For to be guaranteed 'Exaltation', means you are guaranteed 'Eternal Marriage' to your spouse, for that's what 'Exaltation' is. It means that the Holy Spirit of Promise has sealed your marriage forever.

I believe in order to have our C&E, we have to prove we are a Christlike spouse with 'perfect love', only then will our names be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, according to Joseph Smith.

So I do not believe that having one's C&E would ever inspire someone to leave their spouse or cause a break up in their family whom they are now truly 'sealed' to.

For if someone was so Christlike that they received their C&E, then they would be able to get along even better with their spouse, as in 'serve their spouse' continually, and keep their marriage together even more so, it wouldn't cause it to break up.

[Jason]

I am very disapoointed on how harshly judged people are upon this board. I am thankful that only God is my judge he is not as harsh and respects are wishes to obtain eternal exaltation.

Shestalou, I am surprised by this statement. I didn't see anything judgmental about the comments I read above. They were making observations, but I didn't see condemnation. If we can observe and learn, and if those who make extraordinary claims seem to always crash and burn in their covenant keeping, we can safely surmise that the tendency to claim making is not healthy in our spiritual pursuit.

It would seem to me that you have judged others here as being judgmental. I don't intend to criticize, but it would make your journey here more enjoyable if you didn't see this board as a place of harsh judgment. Blessings.

I bet that was one of lucifers arguments.

Of course there will be Impostors, and those who fail. Saying lets not learn to cook because you will burn food in the process is silly, but common. Hell, one third part of our family already bought that argument and so became the self fulfilling prophecy. Don't strive, ask, seek, or knock and you will not find. Fill your own prophecy.

There's a timing component in asking for mountains to climb....as well as the adage of not running faster than we are capable.

There is also a wolfish aspect. Those who have strayed yet trying to give themselves the pretense of having light. One demonstrated by each of the three anti-Christs mentioned in the BoM and certainly a danger in this anonymous world. Certainly the foundation of logic exists that one should be wary of those seeking to cast light and show others the way when they are not ordained as such. Much counsel has been given regarding self-appointed lights. Rand is certainly correct when judgment is then cast about towards those who are wary of such individuals by portraying them as apathetic individuals not seeking higher light and knowledge. Especially ironic when asking that everyone not be so judgmental yet here comes the judgment.

I have had a number of similar observations as Raindrop. I have a now unrecognizable cousin (pierced and tattooed from head to foot - new age) that began his current course as part of a "Elijah" study group at BYU searching for deeper doctrine. Obviously he wasn't obedient to the doctrine he then currently had and shot beyond the mark thus damning himself in the process. Hopefully he corrects course at some point as the current direction isn't promising. That is not to say that all who seek out deeper doctrine are going off the deep end....but a warning as to timing when asking for that higher mountain to climb.

The Jews as a people were stated to have looked beyond the mark. Basically seeking deeper doctrine when they weren't obedient to the doctrine that they then had. We progress by obedience to the law. Line upon line and precept upon precept. From lower law to higher law. Its not beneficial to us collectively and as individuals to progress to higher laws than we are capable of being obedient to.

Often times there is a tendency to try to short cut the process. To experience this C&E when the reality at the end of the day always ends with the caveat of enduring to the end. Life isn't about one moment...its about a process and the end result.

The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect
https://byustudies.byu.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=5472" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Therefore, let us beware of false prophets and false teachers, both men and women, who are self-appointed declarers of the doctrines of the Church and who seek to spread their false gospel and attract followers by sponsoring symposia, books, and journals whose contents challenge fundamental doctrines of the Church. Beware of those who speak and publish in opposition to God’s true prophets and who actively proselyte others with reckless disregard for the eternal well-being of those whom they seduce. Like Nehor and Korihor in the Book of Mormon, they rely on sophistry to deceive and entice others to their views. They “set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion” (2 Ne. 26:29).

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This afternoon we followed the customary practice of sustaining Church officers. It may appear as a somewhat perfunctory exercise. But I remind you that it is an act of grave and serious importance, an act required under the revelation of the Lord, which states:

“Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church” (D&C 42:11).

Concerning the sustaining of officers, President John Taylor once said:

“We hold up our right hand when voting in token before God that we will sustain those for whom we vote; and if we cannot feel to sustain them we ought not to hold up our hands, because to do this, would be to act the part of hypocrites. … For when we lift up our hands in this way, it is in token to God that we are sincere in what we do, and that we will sustain the parties we vote for. … If we agree to do a thing and do not do it, we become covenant breakers and violators of our obligations, which are, perhaps, as solemn and binding as anything we can enter into” (in Journal of Discourses, 21:207).

This principle applies to every priesthood quorum and every other organization of the Church where officers are sustained by the membership.

Almost universally the sustaining is unanimously in the affirmative, as it was this afternoon, because of acceptance in the Church of the validity of the declaration found in the fifth article of our faith:

“We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.” [A of F 1:5]

Here again is set forth a significant and unique feature established by the Lord in the governance of His church. The right to nominate rests with the superior officer or officers at whatever the level. But that nomination must be sustained—that is, accepted and confirmed—by the membership of the Church. The procedure is peculiar to the Lord’s church. There is no seeking for office, no jockeying for position, no campaigning to promote one’s virtues. Contrast the Lord’s way with the way of the world. The Lord’s way is quiet, it is a way of peace, it is without fanfare or monetary costs. It is without egotism or vanity or ambition. Under the Lord’s plan, those who have responsibility to select officers are governed by one overriding question: “Whom would the Lord have?” There is quiet and thoughtful deliberation. And there is much of prayer to receive the confirmation of the Holy Spirit that the choice is correct.

I repeat for emphasis that all who have been ordained to the holy apostleship have had bestowed upon them the keys and the authority of this most high and sacred office. In this authority reside the powers of governance of the Church and kingdom of God in the earth. There is order in the exercise of that authority. It is specifically set forth in the revelations of the Lord. It is known to all of the Brethren and is observed by all.

Now brethren, let it be understood by all that Jesus Christ stands at the head of this church which bears His sacred name. He is watching over it. He is guiding it. Standing at the right hand of His Father, He directs this work. His is the prerogative, the power, the option to call men in His way to high and sacred offices and to release them according to His will by calling them home. He is the Master of life and death.

Let not any voices of discontent disturb you. Let not the critics worry you. As Alma declared long ago, “Trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments” (Mosiah 23:14).

The truth is in this church. The authority is in this priesthood. The leadership is in this great body of priesthood at every level of governance. As the Psalmist declared: “Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep” (Ps. 121:4).

He who is our Savior slumbers not nor sleeps as He watches over this His kingdom.

As surely as this is the work of the Lord, there will be opposition. There will be those, perhaps not a few, who with the sophistry of beguiling words and clever design will spread doubt and seek to undermine the foundation on which this cause is established. They will have their brief day in the sun. They may have for a brief season the plaudits of the doubters and the skeptics and the critics. But they will fade and be forgotten as have their kind in the past.

Meanwhile, we shall go forward, regardless of their criticism, aware of but undeterred by their statements and actions.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... m?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As a young man I worked with a contractor building footings and foundations for new houses. In the summer heat it was hard work to prepare the ground for the form into which we poured the cement for the footing. There were no machines. We used a pick and a shovel. Building lasting foundations for buildings was hard work in those days.

It also required patience. After we poured the footing, we waited for it to cure. Much as we wanted to keep the jobs moving, we also waited after the pour of the foundation before we took away the forms.

And even more impressive to a novice builder was what seemed to be a tedious and time-consuming process to put metal bars carefully inside the forms to give the finished foundation strength.

In a similar way, the ground must be carefully prepared for our foundation of faith to withstand the storms that will come into every life. That solid basis for a foundation of faith is personal integrity.

Our choosing the right consistently whenever the choice is placed before us creates the solid ground under our faith. It can begin in childhood since every soul is born with the free gift of the Spirit of Christ. With that Spirit we can know when we have done what is right before God and when we have done wrong in His sight.

Those choices, hundreds in most days, prepare the solid ground on which our edifice of faith is built. The metal framework around which the substance of our faith is poured is the gospel of Jesus Christ, with all its covenants, ordinances, and principles.

One of the keys to an enduring faith is to judge correctly the curing time required. That is why I was unwise to pray so soon in my life for higher mountains to climb and greater tests.

That curing does not come automatically through the passage of time, but it does take time. Getting older does not do it alone. It is serving God and others persistently with full heart and soul that turns testimony of truth into unbreakable spiritual strength.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... b?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looking beyond the Mark

Another sign of spiritual immaturity and sometimes apostasy is when one focuses on certain gospel principles or pursues “gospel hobbies” with excess zeal. Almost any virtue taken to excess can become a vice.

Certain members have wanted to add substantially to various doctrines. An example might be when one advocates additions to the Word of Wisdom that are not authorized by the Brethren and proselytes others to adopt these interpretations. If we turn a health law or any other principle into a form of religious fanaticism, we are looking beyond the mark.

Some who are not authorized want to speak for the Brethren and imply that their message contains the “meat” the Brethren would teach if they were not constrained to teach only the “milk.” Others want to counsel the Brethren and are critical of all teachings that do not comply with their version of what should be taught.

The Lord said regarding important doctrine, “Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me” (D&C 10:68) and “That which is more or less than this cometh of evil” (D&C 124:120). We are looking beyond the mark when we elevate any one principle, no matter how worthwhile it may be, to a prominence that lessens our commitment to other equally important principles or when we take a position that is contrary to the teachings of the Brethren.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2003/03/looki ... k?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Believe, Obey, and Endure

Finally, may you endure. What does it mean to endure? I love this definition: to withstand with courage. Courage may be necessary for you to believe; it will at times be necessary as you obey. It will most certainly be required as you endure until that day when you will leave this mortal existence.

I have spoken over the years with many individuals who have told me, “I have so many problems, such real concerns. I’m overwhelmed with the challenges of life. What can I do?” I have offered to them, and I now offer to you, this specific suggestion: seek heavenly guidance one day at a time. Life by the yard is hard; by the inch it’s a cinch. Each of us can be true for just one day—and then one more and then one more after that—until we’ve lived a lifetime guided by the Spirit, a lifetime close to the Lord, a lifetime of good deeds and righteousness. The Savior promised, “Look unto me, and endure to the end, and ye shall live; for unto him that endureth to the end will I give eternal life.”6

For this purpose have you come into mortality, my young friends. There is nothing more important than the goal you strive to attain—even eternal life in the kingdom of your Father.

http://www.lds.org/liahona/2012/05/beli ... endure+end" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[sonofliberty]

[quote="Legion]There's a timing component in asking for mountains to climb....as well as the adage of not running faster than we are capable.

There is also a wolfish aspect. Those who have strayed yet trying to give themselves the pretense of having light. One demonstrated by each of the three anti-Christs mentioned in the BoM and certainly a danger in this anonymous world. Certainly the foundation of logic exists that one should be wary of those seeking to cast light and show others the way when they are not ordained as such. Much counsel has been given regarding self-appointed lights. Rand is certainly correct when judgment is then cast about towards those who are wary of such individuals by portraying them as apathetic individuals not seeking higher light and knowledge. Especially ironic when asking that everyone not be so judgmental yet here comes the judgment.

I have had a number of similar observations as Raindrop. I have a now unrecognizable cousin (pierced and tattooed from head to foot - new age) that began his current course as part of a "Elijah" study group at BYU searching for deeper doctrine. Obviously he wasn't obedient to the doctrine he then currently had and shot beyond the mark thus damning himself in the process. Hopefully he corrects course at some point as the current direction isn't promising. That is not to say that all who seek out deeper doctrine are going off the deep end....but a warning as to timing when asking for that higher mountain to climb.

The Jews as a people were stated to have looked beyond the mark. Basically seeking deeper doctrine when they weren't obedient to the doctrine that they then had. We progress by obedience to the law. Line upon line and precept upon precept. From lower law to higher law. Its not beneficial to us collectively and as individuals to progress to higher laws than we are capable of being obedient to.

Often times there is a tendency to try to short cut the process. To experience this C&E when the reality at the end of the day always ends with the caveat of enduring to the end. Life isn't about one moment...its about a process and the end result.

The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect
https://byustudies.byu.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=5472" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Therefore, let us beware of false prophets and false teachers, both men and women, who are self-appointed declarers of the doctrines of the Church and who seek to spread their false gospel and attract followers by sponsoring symposia, books, and journals whose contents challenge fundamental doctrines of the Church. Beware of those who speak and publish in opposition to God’s true prophets and who actively proselyte others with reckless disregard for the eternal well-being of those whom they seduce. Like Nehor and Korihor in the Book of Mormon, they rely on sophistry to deceive and entice others to their views. They “set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion” (2 Ne. 26:29).

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This afternoon we followed the customary practice of sustaining Church officers. It may appear as a somewhat perfunctory exercise. But I remind you that it is an act of grave and serious importance, an act required under the revelation of the Lord, which states:

“Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church” (D&C 42:11).

Concerning the sustaining of officers, President John Taylor once said:

“We hold up our right hand when voting in token before God that we will sustain those for whom we vote; and if we cannot feel to sustain them we ought not to hold up our hands, because to do this, would be to act the part of hypocrites. … For when we lift up our hands in this way, it is in token to God that we are sincere in what we do, and that we will sustain the parties we vote for. … If we agree to do a thing and do not do it, we become covenant breakers and violators of our obligations, which are, perhaps, as solemn and binding as anything we can enter into” (in Journal of Discourses, 21:207).

This principle applies to every priesthood quorum and every other organization of the Church where officers are sustained by the membership.

Almost universally the sustaining is unanimously in the affirmative, as it was this afternoon, because of acceptance in the Church of the validity of the declaration found in the fifth article of our faith:

“We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.” [A of F 1:5]

Here again is set forth a significant and unique feature established by the Lord in the governance of His church. The right to nominate rests with the superior officer or officers at whatever the level. But that nomination must be sustained—that is, accepted and confirmed—by the membership of the Church. The procedure is peculiar to the Lord’s church. There is no seeking for office, no jockeying for position, no campaigning to promote one’s virtues. Contrast the Lord’s way with the way of the world. The Lord’s way is quiet, it is a way of peace, it is without fanfare or monetary costs. It is without egotism or vanity or ambition. Under the Lord’s plan, those who have responsibility to select officers are governed by one overriding question: “Whom would the Lord have?” There is quiet and thoughtful deliberation. And there is much of prayer to receive the confirmation of the Holy Spirit that the choice is correct.

I repeat for emphasis that all who have been ordained to the holy apostleship have had bestowed upon them the keys and the authority of this most high and sacred office. In this authority reside the powers of governance of the Church and kingdom of God in the earth. There is order in the exercise of that authority. It is specifically set forth in the revelations of the Lord. It is known to all of the Brethren and is observed by all.

Now brethren, let it be understood by all that Jesus Christ stands at the head of this church which bears His sacred name. He is watching over it. He is guiding it. Standing at the right hand of His Father, He directs this work. His is the prerogative, the power, the option to call men in His way to high and sacred offices and to release them according to His will by calling them home. He is the Master of life and death.

Let not any voices of discontent disturb you. Let not the critics worry you. As Alma declared long ago, “Trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments” (Mosiah 23:14).

The truth is in this church. The authority is in this priesthood. The leadership is in this great body of priesthood at every level of governance. As the Psalmist declared: “Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep” (Ps. 121:4).

He who is our Savior slumbers not nor sleeps as He watches over this His kingdom.

As surely as this is the work of the Lord, there will be opposition. There will be those, perhaps not a few, who with the sophistry of beguiling words and clever design will spread doubt and seek to undermine the foundation on which this cause is established. They will have their brief day in the sun. They may have for a brief season the plaudits of the doubters and the skeptics and the critics. But they will fade and be forgotten as have their kind in the past.

Meanwhile, we shall go forward, regardless of their criticism, aware of but undeterred by their statements and actions.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... m?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As a young man I worked with a contractor building footings and foundations for new houses. In the summer heat it was hard work to prepare the ground for the form into which we poured the cement for the footing. There were no machines. We used a pick and a shovel. Building lasting foundations for buildings was hard work in those days.

It also required patience. After we poured the footing, we waited for it to cure. Much as we wanted to keep the jobs moving, we also waited after the pour of the foundation before we took away the forms.

And even more impressive to a novice builder was what seemed to be a tedious and time-consuming process to put metal bars carefully inside the forms to give the finished foundation strength.

In a similar way, the ground must be carefully prepared for our foundation of faith to withstand the storms that will come into every life. That solid basis for a foundation of faith is personal integrity.

Our choosing the right consistently whenever the choice is placed before us creates the solid ground under our faith. It can begin in childhood since every soul is born with the free gift of the Spirit of Christ. With that Spirit we can know when we have done what is right before God and when we have done wrong in His sight.

Those choices, hundreds in most days, prepare the solid ground on which our edifice of faith is built. The metal framework around which the substance of our faith is poured is the gospel of Jesus Christ, with all its covenants, ordinances, and principles.

One of the keys to an enduring faith is to judge correctly the curing time required. That is why I was unwise to pray so soon in my life for higher mountains to climb and greater tests.

That curing does not come automatically through the passage of time, but it does take time. Getting older does not do it alone. It is serving God and others persistently with full heart and soul that turns testimony of truth into unbreakable spiritual strength.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... b?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looking beyond the Mark

Another sign of spiritual immaturity and sometimes apostasy is when one focuses on certain gospel principles or pursues “gospel hobbies” with excess zeal. Almost any virtue taken to excess can become a vice.

Certain members have wanted to add substantially to various doctrines. An example might be when one advocates additions to the Word of Wisdom that are not authorized by the Brethren and proselytes others to adopt these interpretations. If we turn a health law or any other principle into a form of religious fanaticism, we are looking beyond the mark.

Some who are not authorized want to speak for the Brethren and imply that their message contains the “meat” the Brethren would teach if they were not constrained to teach only the “milk.” Others want to counsel the Brethren and are critical of all teachings that do not comply with their version of what should be taught.

The Lord said regarding important doctrine, “Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me” (D&C 10:68) and “That which is more or less than this cometh of evil” (D&C 124:120). We are looking beyond the mark when we elevate any one principle, no matter how worthwhile it may be, to a prominence that lessens our commitment to other equally important principles or when we take a position that is contrary to the teachings of the Brethren.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2003/03/looki ... k?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Believe, Obey, and Endure

Finally, may you endure. What does it mean to endure? I love this definition: to withstand with courage. Courage may be necessary for you to believe; it will at times be necessary as you obey. It will most certainly be required as you endure until that day when you will leave this mortal existence.

I have spoken over the years with many individuals who have told me, “I have so many problems, such real concerns. I’m overwhelmed with the challenges of life. What can I do?” I have offered to them, and I now offer to you, this specific suggestion: seek heavenly guidance one day at a time. Life by the yard is hard; by the inch it’s a cinch. Each of us can be true for just one day—and then one more and then one more after that—until we’ve lived a lifetime guided by the Spirit, a lifetime close to the Lord, a lifetime of good deeds and righteousness. The Savior promised, “Look unto me, and endure to the end, and ye shall live; for unto him that endureth to the end will I give eternal life.”6

For this purpose have you come into mortality, my young friends. There is nothing more important than the goal you strive to attain—even eternal life in the kingdom of your Father.

http://www.lds.org/liahona/2012/05/beli ... endure+end" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/quote]

Excellent post Legion! Likely irrefutable!

[Original_Intent]

Legion, that is a great post and I agree with all of it.

I believe it was Joseph Smith that said he was more worried about people believing too little than believing too much.

I certainly feel that the tendency of the majority is always to seek security over freedom, and I also think that the tendency to be safe and comfortable is a bigger challenge to overcome than that too many are seeking for more than they should be. It also seems that almost no one gets it perfect, and certainly it seems that every apostate group is due to some person that seeks too much and then goes overboard. So it certainly seems safer to go with the flow and not upset the apple cart.

I guess my opinion is, for great things, we are told that we will be tried to the utmost. And it makes sense that if people seek that unprepared, there is going to be a large failure rate.

But I also feel that trying to avoid that "ultimate testing" or putting it off indefinitely is just a different form of failure, and certainly a more enjoyable, comfortable failure than seeking and falling on your face.

It does seem that one the devil seems to encourage and make pleasant and the other appears scary, dangerous, and we are encouraged to just chill out and not do anything radical.

I think salvation may require us to leave our confort zone and possibly even act without concern of what our good neighbors and ward members think.