LDS Freedom Forum

[/b][/u]14 And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations—
15 Wherefore he that prayeth, whose spirit is contrite, the same is accepted of me if he obey mine ordinances.
16 He that speaketh, whose spirit is contrite, whose language is meek and edifieth, the same is of God if he obey mine ordinances.
17 And again, he that trembleth under my power shall be made strong, and shall bring forth fruits of praise and wisdom, according to the revelations and truths which I have given you.18 And again, he that is overcome and bringeth not forth fruits, even according to this pattern, is not of me.
19 Wherefore, by this pattern ye shall know the spirits in all cases under the whole heavens.
(Doctrine and Covenants 52:14–19‎)‎

And as many as repent and are baptized in my name, which is Jesus Christ, and endure to the end, the same shall be saved.
(Doctrine and Covenants 18:22‎)‎

21 Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of him.
22 He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them.
23 He was crucified, died, and rose again the third day;
24 And ascended into heaven, to sit down on the right hand of the Father, to reign with almighty power according to the will of the Father;
25 That as many as would believe and be baptized in his holy name, and endure in faith to the end, should be saved—
26 Not only those who believed after he came in the meridian of time, in the flesh, but all those from the beginning, even as many as were before he came, who believed in the words of the holy prophets, who spake as they were inspired by the gift of the Holy Ghost, who truly testified of him in all things, should have eternal life,
27 As well as those who should come after, who should believe in the gifts and callings of God by the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and of the Son;
(Doctrine and Covenants 20:21–27‎)‎

41 And you must preach unto the world, saying: You must repent and be baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ;
42 For all men must repent and be baptized, and not only men, but women, and children who have arrived at the years of accountability.
(Doctrine and Covenants 18:41–42‎)‎

Very good post on the importance/significance of ordinances! Seems like there has been some talk on here recently that seems to downplay the significance of the ordinances.

sonofliberty wrote:Very good post on the importance/significance of ordinances! Seems like there has been some talk on here recently that seems to downplay the significance of the ordinances.

You guys keep missing the point. He's not saying ordinances are not important, he's saying focus on the spiritual side of the ordinances.

ATL Wake wrote:

sonofliberty wrote:Very good post on the importance/significance of ordinances! Seems like there has been some talk on here recently that seems to downplay the significance of the ordinances.

You guys keep missing the point. He's not saying ordinances are not important, he's saying focus on the spiritual side of the ordinances.

ATL, I get that, and I agree with it. In fact, I agree with about 96% of what Amonhi has said. However, some of his comments, although very suttle, seem to make it sound as if physical ordinances are ONLY necessary under the preparatory gospel or gospel of Jesus Christ. Or in other words, if one receives an ordinance spiritually, he will not necessarily have to receive it physically at some point. I believe this is inconsistent with the scriptures. Again, he has kind of tip toed around this issue in his discussion and seems to allude to that without coming right out and directly saying it.

Additionally, when he says things such as:

Amonhi wrote: Define apostacy... I would say that the quote used to start this thread was very much "apostate" in that they left God to follow men, much like the Catholic Church membership. Which is why I referenced Ezekiel 14. But the church is still functioning as it should, just not as effectively as I would like to see it. However, as I stated before, it did it's job with me. But don't rely on the weekly meetings to do it. My wife was a full time temple worker and we read the entire Gospel link library (2000 version), we prayed sincerely and got answers, revelations and visions etc. You can't do the statu quo without expect the same results as those who do the same.

It seems like he is alluding to the organization of the Church and perhaps even the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve having left God to follow man. I think that is very dangerous ground. Elder Bruce R. McConkie himself, when speaking on receiving our C&E stated the following:

We don't need to get a complex or get a feeling that you have to be perfect to be saved. You don't. There's only been one perfect person, and that's the Lord Jesus, but in order to be saved in the Kingdom of God and in order to pass the test of mortality,what you have to do is get on the straight and narrow path – thus charting a course leading to eternal life – and then, being on that path, pass out of this life in full fellowship. I'm not saying that you don't have to keep the commandments. I'm saying you don't have to be perfect to be saved. If you did, no one would be saved ... What you have to do is stay in the mainstream of the Church and live as upright and decent people live in the Church – keeping the commandments, paying your tithing, serving in the organizations of the Church, loving the Lord, staying on the straight and narrow path. If you're on that path when death comes – because this is the time and the day appointed, this is the probationary estate – you'll never fall off from it, and, for all practical purposes, your calling and election is made sure.

(From an address by Bruce R. McConkie, "The Probationary Test of Mortality." delivered at the University of Utah Jan. 10, 1982).

sonofliberty wrote:
ATL, I get that, and I agree with it. In fact, I agree with about 96% of what Amonhi has said. However, some of his comments, although very suttle, seem to make it sound as if physical ordinances are ONLY necessary under the preparatory gospel or gospel of Jesus Christ. Or in other words, if one receives an ordinance spiritually, he will not necessarily have to receive it physically at some point. I believe this is inconsistent with the scriptures. Again, he has kind of tip toed around this issue in his discussion and seems to allude to that without coming right out and directly saying it.

Additionally, when he says things such as:

Amonhi wrote: Define apostacy... I would say that the quote used to start this thread was very much "apostate" in that they left God to follow men, much like the Catholic Church membership. Which is why I referenced Ezekiel 14. But the church is still functioning as it should, just not as effectively as I would like to see it. However, as I stated before, it did it's job with me. But don't rely on the weekly meetings to do it. My wife was a full time temple worker and we read the entire Gospel link library (2000 version), we prayed sincerely and got answers, revelations and visions etc. You can't do the statu quo without expect the same results as those who do the same.

It seems like he is alluding to the organization of the Church and perhaps even the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve having left God to follow man. I think that is very dangerous ground. Elder Bruce R. McConkie himself, when speaking on receiving our C&E stated the following:

I agree with what you are saying SonofLiberty, in fact I couldn't sleep most of the night last night thinking about everything that Amonhi shared here yesterday. The thing that kept coming into my mind was something I remember a seminary teacher telling me a long time ago when I was in seminary, and it was that Satan will tell 99 Truths in order to get in one lie to deceive and lead astray.
I am probably the least qualified here to argue a point because my scripture and spiritual knowledge is very lacking and I am not very eloquent, however one example I would point you to is this, almost everything that Satan said to Eve in the garden was the truth, but he was able to twist it in order to deceive her into partaking of the forbidden fruit.

I don't remember where it was stated if it is on the scriptures, or by past church leaders, but I know it has been said that in the last days the very elect will be deceived. They will be deceived with 100 truths and 1 subtle lie so expertly crafted that it will deceive and lead them astray.
The things Amonhi has shared have been very helpful to me, and I do agree with much of what he has said, he has lit a fire under me and got me moving where I had been stagnating for long time. However, I cannot agree with some of the doctrines which he has shared, they have brought confusion, and contention which things I know do not come from God.

My point is not to call out Amonhi as attempting to deceive and lead everyone on the here astray, I know his intentions are good. There are many examples in the book of Mormon where Satan had appeared unto man as an angel of light, convinced them of the truth of his words so much so that they believed that what they were doing and teaching were right. I guess what I am trying to say is take what Amonhi has shared that is good and true and leads you unto christ, but I know everything he has shared does not ring 100% true so don't allow yourselves to be deceived.

Very good post suspense! Thanks for sharing. I think you and I are on the same page regarding this matter. I find much of what Amonhi says to be very good and appealing. However, it is the little suttle things where it makes it sound like the physical ordinances are NOT necessary if you receive spiritual ordinances, etc. that do not ring true to me. As for his intentions, I cannot speak to those. I do not know what is in his heart, but he appears to be genuine and I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Ehat & Cook, Words, 27 June 1839 Note, p.18
7.& As Joseph Smith here defines it, making one's calling and election sure is the crowning achievement of a life of righteous devotion. However, the Prophet apparently senses that if this concept is too commonly taught it could easily generate within the Church a misguided devotion to a principle that could divert the Saints' energy from the equally important principle of selfless devotion to others. Seeking blessings for oneself only is contrary to the principle that "He that loseth his life for my sake shall find it" (Matthew 10:39).

gr8ideas wrote:Ehat & Cook, Words, 27 June 1839 Note, p.18
7.& As Joseph Smith here defines it, making one's calling and election sure is the crowning achievement of a life of righteous devotion. However, the Prophet apparently senses that if this concept is too commonly taught it could easily generate within the Church a misguided devotion to a principle that could divert the Saints' energy from the equally important principle of selfless devotion to others. Seeking blessings for oneself only is contrary to the principle that "He that loseth his life for my sake shall find it" (Matthew 10:39).

Great words of wisdom! Thanks for sharing!

The thing that kept coming into my mind was something I remember a seminary teacher telling me a long time ago when I was in seminary, and it was that Satan will tell 99 Truths in order to get in one lie to deceive and lead astray. I am probably the least qualified here to argue a point because my scripture and spiritual knowledge is very lacking and I am not very eloquent, however one example I would point you to is this, almost everything that Satan said to Eve in the garden was the truth, but he was able to twist it in order to deceive her into partaking of the forbidden fruit.

I don't remember where it was stated if it is on the scriptures, or by past church leaders, but I know it has been said that in the last days the very elect will be deceived. They will be deceived with 100 truths and 1 subtle lie so expertly crafted that it will deceive and lead them astray.

This is a statement and argument that have been made many times by many people. The thing to bear in mind is that the only being to have ever walked the earth that taught 100% truth was Jesus Christ. Not even the apostles and prophet(s) (new or old) teach 100% truth, and there are myriad examples of this. While the BOM may be the most correct book, not even it contains 100% truth. So if you're looking for 100% truth, then you better do exactly as Amonhi suggests and make sure that the only source of truth you accept is from God Himself -- no middle men.

The real point isn't that physical ordinances are not necessary and won't happen. The real point is that the physical ordinances, including temple ordinances, are really just practice for the real thing. And if, despite all the practice in the world, the real thing never happens, practice by itself, just like the Law of Moses, will not save people and do what is necessary for them to receive exaltation and eternal life.

In a sense, the aggressive defense of physical ordinances, without understanding their real purpose, and what they are intended to point towards, is much like the dogmatic defense and practice of the Law of Moses, without fully understanding its purpose and what it was intended to point to. It is only through Jesus Christ that we can be saved. We should probably be careful about viewing what are only intended to be part of the means to that end as the end itself. The ordinances are simply part of the means, not the end. And if they are not sealed and consummated by the spirit, in the end they will mean nothing. There will be no difference in status between people who have received the physical ordinances, but have failed to receive the spiritual sealing and consummation, and many good people who have never even received the physical ordinances. They will end up in the same place and have the same status.

I know his intentions are good.

HOW do you know?

buffalo_girl wrote:

I know his intentions are good.

HOW do you know?

Correction, I should say it appears to me his intentions are good, I do not know 100%, as SonOfLiberty stated, I do not know the intentions of his heart.