The Fastest Way to Make Your Calling and Election Sure

[Original_Intent]

I'd sure like to see the church records on the Three Nephites or John the Beloved....

I wonder if they ever ordained anyone, and if they did do they need to have it approved through SLC?

Sure, the church has organization and order...but God is not constrained by our ideas of order. Records kept here are imperfect due to the weakness of men, the records kept in heaven are perfect. Perhaps we should be careful of blanket statements that we are not authorised to make.

[Jeremy]

I had never even considered that possibility before. Are you saying that there are people who are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints that hold the priesthood? Because that is not true.

I am. I am saying essentially that we are as the children of Israel who lost their prophet, higher law, and high priesthood. The parallels are outlined in D&C 84 and the way to lift condemnation is personal. It is an individual journey in which all the blessings our Father has can be obtained by ANY of His children. It requires obedience, sacrifice, faith, hope and charity. Jesus Christ is the focus and the way...not the church.

Now I say all that with a lot of love for the church. I have received a tremendous amount of blessings because of my membership in the church and I hold zero animosity towards it. I respect my leaders within the church and recognize the authority that they have. However, I believe their authority and the organization of the church is much more symbolic of a persons individual journey rather than being the literal kingdom of God on earth. Also, I find a strong separation between members of the LDS church and that of The Church of the Firstborn. One is a physical church with physical ordinances leading individuals towards a spiritual church with spiritual ordinances...leading individuals into His presents.

[embryopocket]

Thanks for the replies, I can understand why my seemingly "black and white" statement is being debated. I know that there are very few black-and-white/all-true or all-false realities in the Gospel, but the idea that men who aren't members of the Church can hold the priesthood dangerous. Why would I need to be baptized in the LDS church if my Catholic neighbor holds the priesthood and can baptize me in his pool? <--that's just an example to illustrate my concern :p This comes straight from the lds.org (the Lord's website) definition of "Priesthood.":

The priesthood is the eternal power and authority of God. Through the priesthood God created and governs the heavens and the earth. Through this power He redeems and exalts His children, bringing to pass "the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39). God gives priesthood authority to worthy male members of the Church so they can act in His name for the salvation of His children. Priesthood holders can be authorized to preach the gospel, administer the ordinances of salvation, and govern the kingdom of God on the earth.

As for the 3 Nephites and John the Beloved, they are members of the Church from previous dispensations that haven't died yet.

[embryopocket]

I apologize for derailing this thread onto the topic of priesthood existing outside of the Church, this thread should just be about having our Calling and Election made sure. Is there already a thread about the priesthood questions that we are raising, or should we start a new one?

[Jake]

Thanks for the replies, I can understand why my seemingly "black and white" statement is being debated. I know that there are very few black-and-white/all-true or all-false realities in the Gospel, but the idea that men who aren't members of the Church can hold the priesthood dangerous. Why would I need to be baptized in the LDS church if my Catholic neighbor holds the priesthood and can baptize me in his pool? <--that's just an example to illustrate my concern :p This comes straight from the lds.org (the Lord's website) definition of "Priesthood.":

The priesthood is the eternal power and authority of God. Through the priesthood God created and governs the heavens and the earth. Through this power He redeems and exalts His children, bringing to pass "the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39). God gives priesthood authority to worthy male members of the Church so they can act in His name for the salvation of His children. Priesthood holders can be authorized to preach the gospel, administer the ordinances of salvation, and govern the kingdom of God on the earth.

As for the 3 Nephites and John the Beloved, they are members of the Church from previous dispensations that haven't died yet.

Embryopocket, I went through this same kind of reasoning a few months back. I can feel for you as you digest the comments that come up on this forum.

As you think about your Catholic neighbor baptizing you in his pool, remember that there is a difference between priesthood authority and priesthood power. You are correct in stating that your Catholic neighbor cannot baptize you into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints because he does not have priestly (priesthood) authority. But priesthood power exists independently of priesthood authority. When we are ordained to the Priesthood, we are only given authority to borrow power from Heaven, conditioned on righteousness and the will of the Lord. But true priesthood power, such as was had by Nephi (son of Helaman) can only be obtained directly from the Lord.

There is so much to get into here. It would take many books. If you are interested in more information, there are many books and other writings that you could look at.

I echo Called To Serve, I urge you to pray about this idea and ponder it, and study it in the scriptures.

PS - before I posted this I saw your response about going off topic. You're right, maybe the moderator can move this to a new thread.

[Jeremy]

The priesthood is the eternal power and authority of God. Through the priesthood God created and governs the heavens and the earth. Through this power He redeems and exalts His children, bringing to pass "the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39). God gives priesthood authority to worthy male members of the Church so they can act in His name for the salvation of His children. Priesthood holders can be authorized to preach the gospel, administer the ordinances of salvation, and govern the kingdom of God on the earth.

I have no intention of "debating" or trying to prove MY point. If a principle is to be understood as truth it must be testified by the spirit. That said, please, no one, take my words as proof or a debate. I know that we are all in different stages of our journey and the things we recognize as truth differ because "All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it..." - D&C 93:30 It is very possible that while I can bear testimony that tithing is a true principle...it is only true within a certain sphere. That sphere just happens to be lower than the sphere that requires consecration. This simply put means that we can each receive different witnesses by the spirit based on which sphere/law we are in.

I noticed that the quote embryopocket shared does not necessarily limit who God gives authority to. It just says that He gives authority to worthy male members of the Church. I believe He also gives authority to our worthy brothers AND SISTERS who are not members of the church.

[A Random Phrase]

Hmm, lot to digest there.

OK, can I ask. Isn't the C&E about a G.A taking you and your spouse into the temple, washing you feet and doing a specific ordinance?

Rather than us here speculating its a spiritual thing

Just asking.

I believe you are describing the "second anointing" which is something else. It is an ordinance. C&E is not an ordinance, but the Lord telling a person that they have passed the tests of life and are going to be saved in the kingdom of God unless they do something really terrible like shed innocent blood or deny the Holy Ghost (and we could go round and round with that forever - is "innocent blood" only "consenting" to the death/blood of Christ or something else?).

[embryopocket]

Thank you both for being patient with me, I am young and understand that I know very little. What was said seems to contradict doctrine that I know to be true, but I am willing to investigate further and of course, pray to receive answers from the Lord. Perhaps you can PM me links to sites that contain information on this subject? Thank you brothers and sisters

[A Random Phrase]

Well said, ep.

Neither John Pontius nor Denver Snuffer advocate forgoing the ordinances. Both of them openly recognize the need for ordinances from baptism, sacrament, to temple rites.

If Jesus had need of baptism, so does everyone else who is capable of committing sin (He was capable of sinning, I am sure - otherwise, it would not have been such an incredible thing to be sinless).

And, as John Hall says in his lecture, "Ancient Mediterranean Temple Ceremonies," temple rites are ancient. Even though he is LDS, he describes ancient temple rites in his lecture, not LDS rites. It's an incredible lecture, actually (about halfway down the page of this link .)

Laurence Hemming, nonLDS, also has an interesting lecture, "Chapel, Church, Temple, Catherdral: Lost Parallels" - a couple of videos above John Hall's lecture on the same page.

These nonLDS sources show me that our temple rites are indeed something God would have us participate in.

I haven't read through this entire thread, but from what I've seen there is a lot of false doctrine being thrown back and forth.

The physical ordinances of the priesthood are indeed prerequisite to receiving eternal salvation and exaltation. However, merely receiving this ordinances is not enough. One must live according to the promises made in these covenants. For example, if I partake of the sacrament in church every Sunday yet fail to obey my Lord's commandments, remember Him always, and be willing to take His name upon me, I will not always have His Spirit to be with me.

Receiving the physical ordinances of the priesthood is like signing a contract with God saying that if we complete with everything that is written in the contract, we will receive the blessings that God has also stated in that same contract.

The idea that receiving the ordinances of the priesthood is not necessary for salvation is false. I believe that it was Original_Intent that said that A is B but B isn't always A. One can receive the ordinances of priesthood and not receive the blessings associated, but one cannot receive the associated blessings without first receiving the ordinances.

Study the words of the Lord's prophets and you will not be deceived. I have not read the writings of John Pontius nor Denver Snuffer, and I am sure that they are wonderful members of the church with great knowledge of the gospel, but their words are not to be esteemed higher than the words of the prophets. When I see more quotes from these authors or other authors than from the Holy Scriptures and General Authorities, I begin to worry a little.

[LukeAir2008]

Thank you both for being patient with me, I am young and understand that I know very little. What was said seems to contradict doctrine that I know to be true, but I am willing to investigate further and of course, pray to receive answers from the Lord. Perhaps you can PM me links to sites that contain information on this subject? Thank you brothers and sisters

You are quite correct. God only gives authority to those who are members of his own Church. He can bless and answer the prayers of all those who sincerely seek him but the ordinances and the authority of the Holy Priesthood are only found in the LDS Church.

[Jeremy]

Thank you both for being patient with me, I am young and understand that I know very little.

Thank you for your humility and being willing to ponder these things. Also, please know that we are all young and understand very little. We should all emulate the example you are showing and be humble while still presenting things that we know to be true. I appreciate very much your understanding of the truths you have received...but always there is more. Further light and knowledge should be what we are striving for each time we have "been found true and faithful" to laws we have been given. When that happens it usually results in progression and a new law.

[A Random Phrase]

I did not read in depth, to be honest, but in the circumcision discussion (since I was last on here), I did not see the scripture wherein Christ said that circumcision was done away in Him. It is not necessary. Since it isn't, I see no reason to cause such pain to a baby.

8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
(Book of Mormon | Moroni 8:8)

[Amonhi]

OK, can I ask. Isn't the C&E about a G.A taking you and your spouse into the temple, washing you feet and doing a specific ordinance? Rather than us here speculating its a spiritual thing.

As a firsthand witness, not speculating, I will tell you that this is not the case. C&E is a spiritual ordinance and the Second Anointing is a physical symbol of it.

I have received the spiritual ordinance of C&E and have not yet received the physical ordinance of the Second Anointing.
A book I highly recommend on how to make your calling and election sure is: The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ - Making Your Calling and Election Sure" by Elliaison
Here is part of the overview of the book;

This book discusses in detail and in length the "Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" and includes the following concepts: The Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by Jesus Christ, The Holy Ghost, Rock from which We Cannot Fall, Calling and Election Made Sure: Qualifications, Church accepted examples detailing; How they received it, Where they received it, Why and much more.
Using LDS accepted references we have shown as best we can, step by step and principle by principle the progression process, qualifications, and doctrines as well as the mode and manor by which these blessings are and have been received. We have provided several personal account examples from Scripture, Conference Talks and from Latter-day Church History showing in some cases the exact moment in which a person received the promise known as their "Calling & election Made Sure". We do so to attempt to illustrate the most common way this blessing is received, how it really happens and who is present. (Purchase includes 2 books, one for you and one to share.)

I received my promise prior to the printing of this book, however I personally know 26 people who have told me that they received their promise as a direct result of the applying the principles in this book.

No general authority or secret exclusive temple ordinance required. Besides, IF such an ordinance was required for all the blessings listed in D&C 76:50-70, then only those who had this secret ordinance would be resurrected with teh just in the first resurrection and only those would inherit the CK. And the church does not teach of the ordinance, you cannot prepare for it because they do not tell us what criteria we need to meet, you can not interview for it or request it and it is not being performed for the dead. If it was required, then the whole church is lost save a very few leaders of the millions of members of the church who will never be offered the opportunity to receive these blessing. That means the leadership of the church are responsible for holding back millions of righteous and worthy members from progressing and receiving blessings that they deserve.

Amonhi

[TZONE]

But true priesthood power, such as was had by Nephi (son of Helaman) can only be obtained directly from the Lord.

Yes, search about patriarchal priesthood which is what this person is partially referring to. This comes after making our calling and election made sure.

Amonhi wrote: it [2nd annointing] is not being performed for the dead.

I thought I read it was performed for the dead just by a select few though who had it? Can you verify its not? I ask because I can't verify my side /:) There is a millenium for it to be performed even after we have C&E so we can still rise in the 1st Resurrection.

[Honor]

Whew! It's taken me literally all day to get through this thread. I'm glad I did. Very enlightening. I especially appreciate the original post.

Thank you for sharing. I find that it strengthens me to read others stories and testimonies.

[Amonhi]

On further reflection, I could let go of the idea of a person needing to actually go down into a body of water and being immersed there. There are stories of people being surrounded by clouds or mist or whatnot. I can't remember details right now, but I do suppose the Lord could take care of this ordinance in other ways. I just have a hard time believing that it might not be required at all.

& OI wrote:

I realize you claim that you and your wife were sealed before the temple ceremony, Amonhi. I don't dispute that at all, but I just wonder again - if the ordinances are not needed, then why all the expense to see them done? I certainly feel that temple work is an important part of the restored gospel and seems integral to the turning of the hearts of the children to the fathers, and the hearts of the fathers to the children. Any thoughts?

Hmmm, I wrote about 4-5 pages of thoughts (probably too much anyway) and when I posted it, I went to the login page and it was lost. I tried going back to it with no luck... Bummer. There was some good stuff in it too... Unfortunately, I don't have the time to rewrite the whole thing, but I would like to briefly address some of the highlights...

When we think of the Law of Moses, we tend to think of the strict law of carnal commandments and animal sacrifices. Although these are certainly big parts of the law, we should remember that they were not the only part. Essentially the Law of Moses is every principle and ordinance of the preparatory gospel as administered by the Aaronic Priesthood.

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.
23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;
24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.
25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;
26 And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;
27 Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb. - D&C 84:22-27

So, when we talk about the law of Moses, we are talking about the principles, the law, the authority of the Aaronic priesthood and of course the ordinances, such as baptism, animal sacrifice, circumcision, atonement, etc. It is all part of the law of Moses. Most people don't include baptism as part of the law of Moses, but the lord does.

Now, we Mormons in general have made the same mistake as many of the ancients in thinking that salvation comes by the Law of Moses. We, like some of them, tend to think that the ordinances are required for salvation. That baptism actually DOES something to us or our bodies or makes some change that is required for salvation. As if God would not let us into heaven without baptism by proper authority, (or some other ordinance). And this is how we are taught in church.
Here is the thinking of wicked King Noah and his priests who killed Abinadi:

Mosiah 12:32 - 32 And they answered and said that salvation did come by the law of Moses.

Here is the thinking of the very righteous :

15 Yea, and they did keep the law of Moses; for it was expedient that they should keep the law of Moses as yet, for it was not all fulfilled. But notwithstanding the law of Moses, they did look forward to the coming of Christ, considering that the law of Moses was a type of his coming, and believing that they must keep those outward performances until the time that he should be revealed unto them.
16 Now they did not suppose that salvation came by the law of Moses; but the law of Moses did serve to strengthen their faith in Christ; and thus they did retain a hope through faith, unto eternal salvation, relying upon the spirit of prophecy, which spake of those things to come. - Alma 25:15-16

Well, here is the truth of the matter,

Mosiah 13:27 - And now ye have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should keep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses.

If there will be a time when we will not have to keep the law of Moses, then it is not essential to our salvation, it doesn't do somethin magical to us or our bodies, it is ONLY an outward sign of what needs to happen inwardly/spiritually.

Now let's go back to baptism in relation to the law of Moses...We learn in D&C 22:2 the following:

Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.

Notice that the Lord is lumping baptism in as part of the law of Moses and follows up by saying that, "you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses". This is another way of saying, "Salvation does not come by the Law of Moses"

Adam fell from the Terrestrial to the Telestial kingodm. Christ is saving men from the fall and redeeming them back to the Terrestrial kingdom where we are then able to work out our exaltation and earn our way into the Celestial Kingdom. (We do not earn our Salvation, but we must earn our Exaltation by being valiant to the testimony of Christ/Love that we gain.)

The only criteria for the Telestial kingdom is that we are not SoPs. It is that easy. The minimum criteria for the Terrestrial Kingdom/Salvation is that we receive a testimony of Christ/Love. All those who gain this testimony qualify for the Terrestrial kingdom whether they receive the physical ordinance of baptism or not, and whether that baptism is performed by the priesthood or not. So, the result is that when the world enters the millennium, there will be many churches and many people of different faiths and beliefs still remaining on the earth. We Mormons will be like them, meeting this least criteria. Having the testimony alone is enough to move someone fro the lower kingdom to a higher kingdom. It does not require ordinances, priesthood or authority.

Only those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise will move on to the CK as this is the minimum criteria to enter that kingdom. No ordinance required again.

Back to baptism as a requirement for... ??? Salvation ???
The ancient Pharisees and Jews used to think the Law of Moses was required for salvation. Because Circumcision was the first ordinance of the gospel of the day, they said all new converts must be circumcised and live the law of Moses. This never came up until the gospel was preached to the gentiles, because they had been preaching to the Jews who were already under the law of Moses. But when they started preaching to the gentiles who were not under the law, this became a hot topic which caused great disputations among the leaders of the church. The question is, if a Gentile is converted and receives the gift of the Holy Ghost directly from God, (not by the laying on of hands), then should they be put under the ordinances of the Law of Moses? Today we are asking the same question except instead of circumcision, we considering baptism as the first ordinance of the Gospel. And I am responding to those who are saying, "Except ye be baptized after the manner of John, ye cannot be saved." Here is the account:

1 And certain men which came down from Judæa taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
...
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 ¶And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. - Acts 15:1-11

So, the gentiles were NOT put under the Law of Moses and they are considered saved. They were not required to be put under the law of Moses. They did however receive the Holy Ghost directly from God. (Straight to the Higher Law.)
Taking this into consideration, let's jump over to the other side of the world and see what Mormon said about these gentiles who were not under the law of Moses...

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.
25 And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins; - Moro. 8:22-25

So, the gentiles, not being under the law could not break the law and so could not repent from a broken law and so baptism availeth nothing and to require baptism is to put trust/faith in dead works. Christ came to call the sinners to repentance, not the righteous. From the same chapter, we hear the testimony of Mormon saying,

8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

Also, in the millennium, children will be raised without sin to salvation. Because baptism is to the remission of sins, they being sinless will not require baptism. If baptism DID do some magic thing, then everyone would need to be baptized whether they needed it or not. To say otherwise is to put faith in dead works and to say that we are saved by the symbol of a thing and not the thing itself.

Now the law of Moses/Preparatory Gospel is given to fallen man, Adam being the first. It is a school master given to bring us to Christ. When we have come to Christ, we are no longer under a schoolmaster/law.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The Law of Moses was taken from the Nephites after Christ visited them:

And they did not walk any more after the performances and ordinances of the law of Moses; but they did walk after the commandments which they had received from their Lord and their God, continuing in fasting and prayer, and in meeting together oft both to pray and to hear the word of the Lord. - 4Ne. 1:12

And it was given back to them 360 years later… because of transgression:

And it came to pass that the Lord did say unto me: Cry unto this people—Repent ye, and come unto me, and be ye baptized, and build up again my church, and ye shall be spared. - Morm. 3:2

It was taken from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel and given to the Children of Israel over 400 years after they fell from the promise received by their fathers:

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. … the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Can you see the pattern? The wicked live under the law of Moses which cannot save them because even the laws of carnal commandments are only symbols of the real/higher law. They create the outward appearance of love, but do not change the heart. I would like to draw your attention to verse 18 above. "For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise." We do not inherit the rights of the Firstborn by obedience to the law of Moses or any of its ordinances. We inherit them by receiving the promise which does not come as a result of obedience to the law, but by fulfilling the law so that it is no longer needed.

Original Intent, you asked,

if the ordinances are not needed, then why all the expense to see them done?

This is a good question. One worth discussing, however I will not presently give my opinions as it is hard to take. I will however say that this would be an excellent question to ask the Children of Israel under the law of sacrifice who worshiped in Solomon's temple.

To them, "if the animal sacrifices are not needed, then why do you give the best of your herds? Why do you sacrifice the income you would have received? Why is your temple made from the finest timber and gold and cloth? Why go through the expense and effort when your ordinances are not needed? Why do you waste your time doing these ordinances over and over?

Maybe someone could answer for them?

Well, I didn’t recapture everything, but I recaptured enough. There are some many scriptures that teach these concepts by either doctrine or by example. This is a Major theme of the scriptures, one we should all be very familiar with.

Oh yeah, one more point, We live in the fullness of times during the restoration of ALL THINGS. The Law of Moses was restored by John the Baptist to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. John the Baptist was preaching the Law of Moses and fulfilling it’s purpose of preparing the way for the coming of Christ and the Higher Law. The Bible Dictionary says,

John was the embodiment of the law of Moses, designed to prepare the way for the Messiah and make ready a people to receive him. He was the outstanding bearer of the Aaronic Priesthood in all history, and was entrusted with its most noble mission.

John had nothing to give to Joseph Smith except the keys to the Law of Moses and the preparatory gospel. As part of the restoration of all things, the Law of Moses was restored, (again), and the church today is governed by it. It is the focus of our weekly meetings and worship.

Even the most sacred meeting each week is the sacrament meeting in which the Aaronic priesthood administers the sacrament. And Few realize that this is the ordinance that was given to replace the animal sacrifices because there could be no greater sacrifice than the Son of God. Before the atonement, they sacrificed animals, breaking flesh and sprinkling blood in remembrance of Christ to come. Now we break bread and drink wine in remembrance that Christ came. Every symbolic meaning given in animal sacrifice is found in the Sacrament which is administered in every ward and branch of the church every Sunday, and this is the most sacred meeting, which should not be missed, even if you can’t make it to the complete 3 hour block. And if you are sick, we can bring it to you so that you too can participate in the lower law each week.

We teach the law of carnal commandments, We minister the ordinances and we study it’s principles as the most commonly taught principles in the church. So much is this the case, that when someone like myself comes along proclaiming the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Higher law, it is new information and astonishing ideas. And yet it is everywhere in the scriptures. Hundreds of stories all saying the same thing. Even Christ’s very life was dedicated to showing us how to fulfill the law so that it could be removed from us. If you are under the law, then follow Christ’s example and fulfill it.

If you are not under the law and you can receive the Holy Ghost, then do so and then it will tell you all things what you should do, rather than a dead law written on stone telling you all things what you should do…

Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Furthermore, I don't see the baptism of fire as merely a spiritual ordinance. I believe the baptism of fire has actual physical effects on our mortal bodies and that these effects begin when we have fulfilled the requirements of the water baptism which raises us from a carnal state to a spiritual state.

If baptism by water does something to us, then it saves us and is required. Not just by some, but by all. This is easy to accept until you apply it to children. If baptism by water makes a physical change to our bodies, then children need to be baptized to have that change take place in them to... They would require it in this life or the next. And so would all though who are without the law. It would be essential even for those who are raised without sin to salvation. This then is putting faith or trust in the ordinance. If the baptism by water DID make some type of physical change, then those who were baptized by lying to their leaders so they could marry those cute Mormon girls, would receive the physical change even though they didn't really qualify for them. The physical change would have been enough to effect their state regardless of the convictions and true intentions of those being baptized, and the wicked could get the ordinance an be saved with the righteous. This is what it means to put trust in dead works. Thinking that the ordinance actually does something.

When we look at the animal sacrifices performed by the Children of Israel, we say, Those were symbols of Christ and they were not really saved by the ordinance itself. We can see it when we apply it to them, but we cannot see it when we apply it to ourselves and we ask, Why would the Lord do such a thing? It can't be so because it would be such a waste of time and resources... We are saved by the Aaronic priesthood and the preparatory Gospel...aren't we? (Shaking head, no we are not.)

The Savior certainly seems to uphold this idea of mine since the first thing He taught the Nephites in 3 Nephi 11 after teaching them who He was, was how to baptize and why.

For the same reason Christ was baptized. He was born a debtor to the law. He had to fulfill it every jot and tittle. He did not come to save the righteous who were not under the law, but the wicked who were. The whole need no physicians, but the sick do. In this case, the sick are those under the curse of a broken law. Christ was circumcised and so was born under the law...to fulfill all righteousness, he could not just ignore the law and say, that doesn't apply to me. He had to fulfill it, just as we do/must if we are to be free of it.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

If you are placed under the lower law, as all Mormons and Christians are, then they are required to fulfill the law every wit, whether they need it or not. Christ took on flesh, not as a gentile free from the law, but as a Jew under the law. In this way he could redeem his people by showing them how to get out from the law that they were under since Moses...

This is the only ordinance that I know of in scripture that is mentioned as one to be done for the dead. And these verses make it sound pretty important, to the point that a) the temple is necessary specifically so that there can be a place to do baptisms for the dead and b) that the people and their dead will be rejected if they don't fulfill this assignment.

I will say that if the dead died under the law, then the law was not fulfilled and they remain dead under the law until the law is fulfilled, not broken or ignored, but fulfilled.

[Amonhi]

Amonhi, so how does one know if they've been baptized with fire?
I have had what I think is the Holy Ghost envelop me before? Should I assume that was the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost?
I feel what I think is the Holy Ghost often even while writing this.
Thanks for your input.

I think that Called to Serve's advice is sound. I will add that it is common to have received this experience and not know. I really like that the savior pointed this out saying,

3 Nephi 9:20 - 20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

I will also say that I believe firmly that you have. But you must receive your own witness.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

AGStacker, I suggest praying to ask if you have had the baptism of fire. I think that is probably the only way to know. When I experienced mine, I had no idea what it was. Afterward, the Lord stated testifying to me what had happened. So I didn't know it at the time, but learned later that I was baptized by the Spirit.

But what if I don't perhaps remember a specific event but have felt a flood of the Holy Ghost many times before?

You can ask for a blanket yes/no and you will get an answer. You do not need to know when or where. It is nice to know, but not essential. Once you get a yes/no then ask for more detail as you desire. That will help you to narrow it down. The baptism of fire is what purifies your soul so that the Holy Ghost can dwell in you. The Holy Ghost does not dwell in unholy Temples. you are the temple of God/the Holy Ghost. If you have the presence of the Holy Ghost, you are at that moment clean. You have been purified as if by fire.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

The physical ordinances of the priesthood are indeed prerequisite to receiving eternal salvation and exaltation.

Do you think that the priesthood ordinances of animal sacrifices were a prerequisite to receiving eternal salvation and exaltation. Does salvation come by the Law of Moses?

However, merely receiving this ordinances is not enough. One must live according to the promises made in these covenants. For example, if I partake of the sacrament in church every Sunday yet fail to obey my Lord's commandments, remember Him always, and be willing to take His name upon me, I will not always have His Spirit to be with me.

If I do not take the sacrament and yet live worthy of the spirit, I will have the spirit. Taking Nephi's advice to like the scriptures to ourselves, here is one to consider...

25 For baptism verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy baptism is made unbaptism.
26 Therefore if the unbatised keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his unbaptism be counted for baptism?
27 And shall not unbaptism which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and baptism dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Mormon, which is one outwardly; neither is that baptism, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Mormon, which is one inwardly; and baptism is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. - Rom. 2:25-29

This is a valid comparison because the ancients thought that circumcision was required for salvation just like we think baptism is, (see Acts 15:1-11)

The idea that receiving the ordinances of the priesthood is not necessary for salvation is false. I believe that it was Original_Intent that said that A is B but B isn't always A. One can receive the ordinances of priesthood and not receive the blessings associated, but one cannot receive the associated blessings without first receiving the ordinances.

To many scriptures disagree with you. Based on what you are saying, we have to go through the ordinances in order and cannot receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost before physical baptism in water and we cannot receive the holy Ghost without the laying on of hands. Christ even referenced an example of people receiving the baptism of Fire and the Holy Ghost without physical ordinances when he said,

3 Nephi 9:20 - And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

You find who he is talking about and you will see an example that defies and contradicts your view of the gospel and ordinances.
Here is another quick one...

44 ¶While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the aHoly Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. - Acts 10:44-48

This is a good reference because the gentiles received the gift of the holy ghost. Not only does it say they received the gift of the Holy Ghost, but we see them speaking in tongues which is one of the gifts of the Holy Ghost. When we are experiencing the power of the Holy ghost, it is because someone with the gift of the Holy Ghost is using that gift to reach our hearts. When we experience the power of the Holy Ghost, we do not have access to the Gifts of the spirit that come with the gift of the Holy Ghost. Speaking in tongues shows that they had the Gift of the Holy Ghost and were not being touched by the power of the Holy Ghost only. No baptism or laying on of hands. Of course Peter told them to be baptized because he didn't realize until chapter 15 that submitting the gentiles to the lower law was not necessary when they received the higher law from the start.

Study the words of the Lord's prophets and you will not be deceived. I have not read the writings of John Pontius nor Denver Snuffer, and I am sure that they are wonderful members of the church with great knowledge of the gospel, but their words are not to be esteemed higher than the words of the prophets. When I see more quotes from these authors or other authors than from the Holy Scriptures and General Authorities, I begin to worry a little.

Numbers 11:29

29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them! - Num. 11:29

Peace and love,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

When I was searching to understand more about physical ordinances I came across the "required" physical ordinance of circumcision. In a discussion with a friend of mine I wrote up the following. Please forgive me if it doesn't all apply to the current discussion.

What you posted completely applies. They like we, thought that ordinances were required for salvation. They put faith in dead works. It is easy to see they were wrong because we don't require it today. But it is difficult to see ourselves in the same light we look at them. We look at them and say, they were really screwed up to think that circumcising or offering animal sacrifices actually remitted their sins and were required for salvation.

Then we turn around in the same breath and say that baptism and Sacrament actually DO forgive us of sin and are required for salvation...

Thank you for sharing these great scriptures. There are so many that tell us the same thing...

Laws, spheres, light, truth, knowledge. They are all related. The law that we are under is a form of condemnation because it does not allow us to progress into a higher sphere until we fulfill said law. The light and truth we have is often limited by our understanding and knowledge of the law we are currently in. But when one progresses beyond a sphere, or fulfills a law, their understanding of that fulfilled law grows.

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause: Excellent! Well said!

All of a sudden it matters not that Joseph was baptized by someone who did not hold the authority of the priesthood. It doesn't matter that Joseph baptized without the authority. It doesn't matter that Joseph received the priesthood by one not yet holding the priesthood.

=))

71 Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me—after which I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same Priesthood—for so we were commanded.

) :ymapplause:
It doesn't matter that Jesus Christ went to John, who was not recognized by the Jews to hold the priesthood, to be baptized. It doesn't matter that Alma baptized Helam and himself at the same time.
=)) =))

12 And now it came to pass that Alma took Helam, he being one of the first, and went and stood forth in the water, and cried, saying: O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart.
13 And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world.
14 And after Alma had said these words, both Alma and Helam were buried in the water; and they arose and came forth out of the water rejoicing, being filled with the Spirit.
15 And again, Alma took another, and went forth a second time into the water, and baptized him according to the first, only he did not bury himself again in the water.

:ymparty: ) =))

What matters is that they were led by the spirit. The spirit must not only be present, it must seal the ordinance. And if this happens, the ordinance has taken place. At no time before this. The physical ordinance is a schoolmaster. And if the spirit directs you to participate it is in relation to the law which condemns you. Once you fulfill this law, the condemnation is lifted in relation to this law. Then you move on into a higher law...and new "condemnation". But it is only condemnation because it must be fulfilled in order to obtain higher.

The scriptures clearly teach...what they teach is only as clear as the light which shines in the sphere we find ourselves. The power is contained in the spiritual side...the spiritual side being the necessary side.

Why is so much put into temples and work for the dead? There are a lot of people that have a law to fulfill. This might be why in some cases we feel their presents when we do the work...but in other times we do not. I used to assume that in not feeling them there it was because they A) were not ready and/or B) they were not worthy. I think I was in error in that assumption. Possibly they had already fulfilled the preparatory law which leads/points to a higher/spiritual realm.

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause: Wonderful post! i couldn't agree more. Thank you kindly.

Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Joseph and Oliver did have the priesthood to baptize. Here is the scripture that you quoted with the two verses that come before it.

Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, but that this should be conferred on us hereafter; and he commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave us directions that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards he should baptize me.

Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me—after which I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same Priesthood—for so we were commanded.

So they had the priesthood and did everything in the right order. SO, you are saying that we can receive the priesthood without being baptized and receiving the Holy Ghost first? And what were they ordained as prior to baptizing each other? Deacons, teachers or Priests? As Only a priest can baptize, it seems that being given the Aaronic priesthood in general seems to have covered the ordination. So, if someone were to confer on a 12 year old boy the Aaronic priesthood but forget to ordain him as a Deacon, then he would have the ability to baptize? Cool...

As for John the Baptist not having Priesthood authority when he baptized Christ:...In verse 27, it says "until John" clearly stating that he had the Aaronic Priesthood. Do note, however, that when the angel ordained him when he was 8 days old, it was not to the priesthood, but for his mission of preparing the way for the Savior.

He was saying that John was not recognized by the church as having authority to baptize. Also, John the baptist's mission was not authorized or recognized by the church. God seems to like to do that... Here is a modern one for you...
We are told that the 144,000 will be ordained by angels to be high priests and given the mission of bringing as many as will come to the church of the firstborn. Do you think the church will recognize these ordinations and callings which do not come through its ranks?

Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?
A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.

Therefore, when Alma entered the water with Helam, it was not a case of Alma baptizing himself; he was merely offering a token to the Lord of his humility and full repentance.

Do you think that was Alma's view on it? Did Alma think that he needed repentance and baptism as much as those he was serving? He knew the doctrine and purpose of baptism and he had greatly repented of his sins. Why would we think that he was not performing the ordinance on himself? And the spirit seemed to like what he did because they both came out of the water being filled with the spirit. We need to be careful to not let our dogma and current church doctrine tell us what the scriptures say and read them for what they say all by themselves, with the spirit. If the scriptures contradict current church doctrine, it is not the scriptures that should change...It is the current Church doctrine that is not Current enough...

[Amonhi]

Yes, John did have authority but I was trying to point out that he was not recognized by "the church" at the time to have authority or be ordained for a mission. This is because "the church" is not the giver of authority or mission...it comes from Him and Him alone.

You are aligned with this scripture:

1 Nephi 10:22 - And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.

and if the Holy Ghost tells us all things what we should do, then it authorizes us to do whatever it tells us to do. Even if that means preaching or prophesying when we are not called or sustained as prophets by vote...Like the prophet Amos:

14 ¶Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
15 And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel. - 7:14

This same Amos told us,

7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, abut he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. - Amos 3:7

He wasn't talking about the prophets that sit on the stands, he was talking about prophet like himself who are called by God directly to prophecy. Lehi is another example of such a prophet called by the Lord by a vision with no Church supporting him.

18 Therefore, I would that ye should know, that after the Lord had shown so many marvelous things unto my father, Lehi, yea, concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, behold he went forth among the people, and began to prophesy and to declare unto them concerning the things which he had both seen and heard. - 1Ne. 1:18

That is how the Lord does nothing without revealing his secrets to his servants the prophets.

Nothing is as it seems...
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Do note, however, that when the angel ordained him when he was 8 days old, it was not to the priesthood, but for his mission of preparing the way for the Savior.

I am not 100% sure about this, I thought that I remembered reading that the angel ordained John for his special mission but that he was ordained to the priesthood by an angel in the desert? Is that right or am I making that up? I don't feel comfortable leaving that statement there without a quote to back it up. Anyone know of a quote on exactly HOW John received the priesthood?

I appreciate you questioning yourself. A very humble move in public. Here is your verse:

28 For he was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power. - D&C 84:28

Peace and love,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

And as for the church not recognizing John's authority, the church was in a state of apostasy and the leaders were corrupt. The Church was in a fallen state by the time Christ was born into the world. Perhaps this is why the Lord ordained John to the priesthood seemingly "outside of the Church." However now that the Church is not in a state of apostasy, ordinations to the priesthood will always come through it.

Will our church and membership recognize the 144,000 who are ordained by angels to bring as many as will come to the Church of the firstborn? D&C 77:11