The Fastest Way to Make Your Calling and Election Sure

[A Random Phrase]

Excellent scriptures, coach. Fear drags us down. It limits our possibilities. This is not to say we should have our eyes closed to charlatans that are surely around us, but the gospel is so much, much more than simply "doing good and one day we will be saved."

Perhaps Amonhi did see Jesus and perhaps he didn't. That isn't our call to make. The message he brings should be looked at. Did he have a divine commission or is he just someone a little "off" who wanted to share? By the way, there are some who seem a little "off" to "socially-adjusted" people, yet these "losers" have bona fide spiritual experiences with Holy Beings.

The Spirit cannot speak through fear. It isn't possible, especially when it is very, very strong.

Some of what Amonhi said made sense, some seemed a little off. I would think the best course would be to accept what the Spirit ratifies and drop the rest. If you think about it, we have so many LDS missionaries that mess things up that we have a saying along the lines of, "If the church wasn't true, the missionaries would have destroyed it long ago." Perhaps missionaries for the Church of the Firstborn are similar when they begin, perhaps not.

The final words of a prophet who hid up the records to you and to me in the last days:

Moroni 7

3 Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven...
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil...
27 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased because Christ hath ascended into heaven, and hath sat down on the right hand of God, to claim of the Father his rights of mercy which he hath upon the children of men?...
29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men....
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.
36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

Moroni 10

7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.
8 And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them...
19 And I would exhort you, my beloved brethren, that ye remember that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and that all these gifts of which I have spoken, which are spiritual, never will be done away, even as long as the world shall stand, only according to the unbelief of the children of men.
24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief...
26 And wo unto them who shall do these things away and die, for they die in their sins, and they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God; and I speak it according to the words of Christ; and I lie not...
27 And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust?

30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing...
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

The promise of our God:

D&C 93:1

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

What greater testimonies can we have than these?

[A Random Phrase]

We must be very careful when someone makes such claims, no matter who they are or what position they may hold. We have to question & test everyone and their doctrine, no matter how wonderful, wise and intelligent they may seem.

+1
And question and test without fear, malice, adoration, or worship.

[A Random Phrase]

Very well said, sir.

Or there is a third option: To me it is neither here nor there whether they have had the experience or not. "But OI!" you might say "surely it matters whether they are telling the truth about THAT, because if not we know they are liars and we can ignore anything else they have to say."

Well, I suppose that is true if the Lord opts to confirm to you that they had the experience. I think it is a little more pragmatic to go to the Lord asking about whether the advice is good. Or if it is self-evident such as pray more, try to develop a personal relationship with the Savior - why would I not want to follow that advice, even if they have lied or been deceived themselves about an experience that they had.

We each individually are not going to be saved or damned based on someone else's experience. What should matter is what are they exhorting us to do? I think many here err as badly as if they were putting too much trust in the arm of flesh by focusing on whether this or that claim is true (and in all honesty, passing judgement on the matter that they almost certainly lack the facts on.)

As far as the quotes from genereal authorities, it seems that they warn of TWO things together; those claiming such experiences AND claiming some calling or authority from such. It seems like the people that we have been obsessing about lately, though they claim the former, if anything go out of their way to state they do not have the latter. Amonhi did claim to be one of the 144,000, which 1)I am very skeptical of, and 2) again I am not required to have a testimony of Amonhi being one of the 144,000. The question is, has he geiven advice or counsel that is bad or that we clearly should not be following? Nothing that I have seen.

[awake]

+1
And question and test without fear, malice, adoration, or worship.

I totally agree.

[Rob]

We each individually are not going to be saved or damned based on someone else's experience. What should matter is what are they exhorting us to do? I think many here err as badly as if they were putting too much trust in the arm of flesh by focusing on whether this or that claim is true (and in all honesty, passing judgement on the matter that they almost certainly lack the facts on.)

As far as the quotes from genereal authorities, it seems that they warn of TWO things together; those claiming such experiences AND claiming some calling or authority from such. It seems like the people that we have been obsessing about lately, though they claim the former, if anything go out of their way to state they do not have the latter. Amonhi did claim to be one of the 144,000, which 1)I am very skeptical of, and 2) again I am not required to have a testimony of Amonhi being one of the 144,000. The question is, has he geiven advice or counsel that is bad or that we clearly should not be following? Nothing that I have seen.

What should matter is what they are exhorting us to do, and what they are encouraging us to do, whether their interpretation of doctrine takes us toward or away from truth. There's something about someone with outrageous claims and well-rehearsed answers that makes me feel like I'm about to be given the religious equivalent of a multi-level marketing spiel.

[HeirofNumenor]

A Random Phrase - that you for your comments today (up to this instant)...they have truly been respectful and peacemaking...I appreciate your comments today also Gideon, Rob, & OI...

Perhaps missionaries for the Church of the Firstborn are similar when they begin, perhaps not.

I know your wording may have been unintended, but I have a problem with the characterization of the Church of the Firstborn as a separate entity, existing simultaneously with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints...everything scripturally indicates it is what exists in the Celestial Kingdom, and implies that is when you get your membership - once you receive your exaltation (post-resurrection/twinkling). The idea of hurry up and get C&E now, and missionaries (144,000) being sent to gather people into Church of First Born implies that the LDS Church (and all it's prophets, apostles, and ordinances is being bypassed) as something unnecessary for certain individuals. To me, this is not how God works (unless you have a long-term translation like John & 3 Nephites, who are a total class apart).

(As an example: the title of this thread - which implies, to me, a "hurry up and get your c&e," which does not seem to match how God does things. We are more often frustrated because whatever he promises/prophesies doesn't come quickly enough to suit us. Also, Joseph Smith said that it would come only after God had proven us.)

This is something I mentioned a few days ago - here on on a different thread...that we have some much work to be doing to help build the Kingdom, proclaim the Gospel, redeem the dead, perfect the saints & help our families, and help the poor, hungry, and needy - all the while trying to get through mortality and avoid the pitfalls of sin, pride, and anything else ... I don't see God or Christ making a push to focus on C&E, when there is so much immediate things to focus on... as I said do these things and the Lord will grant the progression in His own time - not ours...

We are more often frustrated because whatever he promises/prophesies doesn't come quickly enough to suit us.

Big problem for many of us...whether it is C&E, not satisfied with lack of Revelation in scriptures/by prophets, lack of answers to our questions from the same leaders, Church leaders not standing up to Feds, 501C3, not speaking out on secret combinations, etc....

Jacob 4:14

14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

[A Random Phrase]

HeirofNumenor, I had never thought of the Church of the Firstborn being when people receive their exaltation. I had learned that it was inside the LDS church (i.e., one has to be a member of the LDS church first, receiving the ordinances, etc), and that the angels were the ones to gather people to that church (Firstborn). Unfortunately, my comment about missionaries was rather tongue-in-cheek, because it seems strange to me that such a church would send out mortal missionaries.

Don't the scriptures state that the Church of the Firstborn is the church Enoch and his group belong to? And that that is what will greet Zion when Christ comes again? In other words, the church that will exist in the Millennium.

Joseph Smith did teach about having one's c&e made sure, as well as seeing Jesus in the flesh. It doesn't seem to be taught anymore. (I learned it from an institute class about the teachings of Joseph Smith a long time ago.)

as I said do these things and the Lord will grant the progression in His own time - not ours...

Exactly! The timing is always His. When we become impatient, or think we can accomplish some great thing quickly, He just might not cooperate with us (since it is we who should cooperate with Him).

I think we should search for all the truth that is available to us, but there is a danger that we might seek for things "beyond the mark" like the scripture you quoted said. It seems to me that all things need to be in a balance. And only God, really, can help us maintain that balance (but we've got to be willing to hear what He is really saying to us).

[AshleyB]

.

[A Random Phrase]

Yes, thebestsun, but you know this forum. Each topic is a jumping off point for all aspects of a topic. Not cool when people begin fighting, and throwing around the "apostate" label, etc. but very helpful and enlightening when people respectfully give differing viewpoints. New things can be learned, or old things can be seen in a new light.

[tmac]

I offer the following commentary, that I just read, for those genuinely and sincerely seeking to try to better understand these principles, and do something about it.

There appears to be several acceptable ways to walk the straight and narrow path to receiving a personal promise of eternal life. The ideal way is straight and narrow, entered upon knowingly, traveled with real intent, and completed with a real and unmistakable event. When this is the case, those who learn to clearly recognize and obey the promptings of the Holy Spirit, experience powerful, life-changing events that follow in rapid succession. This will make the traveler of this path a spiritual warrior, acting and speaking with the power of the spirit, and become a worker of great righteousness. . . . The resultant knowledge makes the person “sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.” It additionally opens the doors to further spiritual blessings, including the Second Comforter. It makes them powerful in faith and effective in their priesthood power.

The other method is likewise real, and the blessings and refinements are equally operative in the lives of those who walk it. But it is much longer, and spans most, if not all, of the lifetime of those who travel it. The trials experienced are longer in duration, yet often less intense. The spiritual blessings are the same, but spread out over many years of time, thus making them less recognizable, and consequently less rejoiced over. That which is lost in this longer process, however, is of great worth. Lost is the surety of purpose and powerful service of the other method. Lost is the opportunity to knowingly teach and involve others (including spouse and children) to the same extent in the process. Lost is the powerful faith and potent priesthood power. Lost is the visibly open door to further spiritual gifts and blessings. Yet, it is a way that is fully acceptable to the Lord and one upon which the majority of His children [who are even attempting to do so] walk. Those who successfully traverse it will enter some level of the celestial kingdom.

The process, whether long or short, is based on the same fundamental prerequisite – learning to live by personal revelation. The more powerful process takes exactly the length of time it requires for us to develop absolute obedience to His voice. Whether that is long or short is entirely up to us. Those who discount the role of, or need for personal revelation are not involved in either process.

[Gad]

As a counterbalance to those who claim authoritative knowledge of what is involved in having one's calling and election made sure without even attempting to explain why they have such knowledge and understanding, and act as if they are the sole arbitors as to who is and isn't a proper messenger, and insist that voices like Amonhi's, Lee's and others, should be rejected out of hand, and that the process of receiving one's C&E is much more arduous, lengthy and complicated than some have suggested, I am going to offer some commentary without any attribution with respect to the source. The reason I’m offering no attribution is because it is obvious that as a purely knee jerk reaction some will criticize virtually anything and everything that is said that doesn't conform with their paradigm(s) . . . or that comes from a messenger that they do not find acceptable -- for whatever reason. It is not even to those that I offer this commentary because their reaction is very predictable, and this commentary will undoubtedly fall on deaf ears with them, and meet an endless chorus of repetitious warnings about the risk of deception, etc., etc. I offer it, however, for those genuinely and sincerely seeking to try to better understand these principles, and do something about it.

There appears to be several acceptable ways to walk the straight and narrow path to receiving a personal promise of eternal life. The ideal way is straight and narrow, entered upon knowingly, traveled with real intent, and completed with a real and unmistakable event. When this is the case, those who learn to clearly recognize and obey the promptings of the Holy Spirit, experience powerful, life-changing events that follow in rapid succession. This will make the traveler of this path a spiritual warrior, acting and speaking with the power of the spirit, and become a worker of great righteousness. . . . The resultant knowledge makes the person “sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.” It additionally opens the doors to further spiritual blessings, including the Second Comforter. It makes them powerful in faith and effective in their priesthood power.

The other method is likewise real, and the blessings and refinements are equally operative in the lives of those who walk it. But it is much longer, and spans most, if not all, of the lifetime of those who travel it. The trials experienced are longer in duration, yet often less intense. The spiritual blessings are the same, but spread out over many years of time, thus making them less recognizable, and consequently less rejoiced over. That which is lost in this longer process, however, is of great worth. Lost is the surety of purpose and powerful service of the other method. Lost is the opportunity to knowingly teach and involve others (including spouse and children) to the same extent in the process. Lost is the powerful faith and potent priesthood power. Lost is the visibly open door to further spiritual gifts and blessings. Yet, it is a way that is fully acceptable to the Lord and one upon which the majority of His children [who are even attempting to do so] walk. Those who successfully traverse it will enter some level of the celestial kingdom.

The process, whether long or short, is based on the same fundamental prerequisite – learning to live by personal revelation. The more powerful process takes exactly the length of time it requires for us to develop absolute obedience to His voice. Whether that is long or short is entirely up to us. Those who discount the role of, or need for personal revelation are not involved in either process.

I find this quote interesting. I intend to ponder on it. If there is more please PM me it.

[Kingdom of ZION]

As a counterbalance to those who claim authoritative knowledge of what is involved in having one's calling and election made sure without even attempting to explain why they have such knowledge and understanding, and act as if they are the sole arbitors as to who is and isn't a proper messenger, and insist that voices like Amonhi's, Lee's and others, should be rejected out of hand, and that the process of receiving one's C&E is much more arduous, lengthy and complicated than some have suggested, I am going to offer some commentary without any attribution with respect to the source. The reason I’m offering no attribution is because it is obvious that as a purely knee jerk reaction some will criticize virtually anything and everything that is said that doesn't conform with their paradigm(s) . . . or that comes from a messenger that they do not find acceptable -- for whatever reason. It is not even to those that I offer this commentary because their reaction is very predictable, and this commentary will undoubtedly fall on deaf ears with them, and meet an endless chorus of repetitious warnings about the risk of deception, etc., etc. I offer it, however, for those genuinely and sincerely seeking to try to better understand these principles, and do something about it.

There appears to be several acceptable ways to walk the straight and narrow path to receiving a personal promise of eternal life. The ideal way is straight and narrow, entered upon knowingly, traveled with real intent, and completed with a real and unmistakable event. When this is the case, those who learn to clearly recognize and obey the promptings of the Holy Spirit, experience powerful, life-changing events that follow in rapid succession. This will make the traveler of this path a spiritual warrior, acting and speaking with the power of the spirit, and become a worker of great righteousness. . . . The resultant knowledge makes the person “sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.” It additionally opens the doors to further spiritual blessings, including the Second Comforter. It makes them powerful in faith and effective in their priesthood power.

The other method is likewise real, and the blessings and refinements are equally operative in the lives of those who walk it. But it is much longer, and spans most, if not all, of the lifetime of those who travel it. The trials experienced are longer in duration, yet often less intense. The spiritual blessings are the same, but spread out over many years of time, thus making them less recognizable, and consequently less rejoiced over. That which is lost in this longer process, however, is of great worth. Lost is the surety of purpose and powerful service of the other method. Lost is the opportunity to knowingly teach and involve others (including spouse and children) to the same extent in the process. Lost is the powerful faith and potent priesthood power. Lost is the visibly open door to further spiritual gifts and blessings. Yet, it is a way that is fully acceptable to the Lord and one upon which the majority of His children [who are even attempting to do so] walk. Those who successfully traverse it will enter some level of the celestial kingdom.

The process, whether long or short, is based on the same fundamental prerequisite – learning to live by personal revelation. The more powerful process takes exactly the length of time it requires for us to develop absolute obedience to His voice. Whether that is long or short is entirely up to us. Those who discount the role of, or need for personal revelation are not involved in either process.

Amon, Amon, and Amon! I would say that this points to the paths of Second Estaters experiences. There are similar paths for Fourth Estate Beings.

Shalom Tmac

[A Random Phrase]

The process, whether long or short, is based on the same fundamental prerequisite – learning to live by personal revelation. The more powerful process takes exactly the length of time it requires for us to develop absolute obedience to His voice. Whether that is long or short is entirely up to us. Those who discount the role of, or need for personal revelation are not involved in either process.

Amen!

It's like giving birth; sometimes it is only the fear of the process that prevents the final result.

[tmac]

I also want to offer this additional commentary, which seems to have some bearing on this subject:

When a person is sanctified, they become pure and spotless, washed clean by the atoning blood of Christ, having their garments made white. They become purified by fire and the Holy Ghost. Sanctification eventually makes a person worthy to stand in the presence of God.

Even after enjoying a degree of sanctification through the rebirth [BFHG], or [later] calling and election, we will be mortal still, and subject to temptation and opposition of all types. We will have become pure, cleansed and holy -- not perfect. Whether a person long endures this state of sanctification depends entirely on their capacity to continue to obey the promptings of the Holy Spirit, which may at times become fainter and fainter -- all to test how closely and carefully we are listening.

This truth may distill a degree of hopelessness into some who read it. Hopeless because they fear they may never measure up sufficiently to become pure and spotless. Or fear that once sanctified, they may fall therefrom and condemn themselves. Others may ascribe these perfections and promises to the prophets and assume they are not for the average member.

It is not the Holy Ghost telling them they cannot succeed, nor whispering that these blessings are reserved for a select few. The idea that all would-be saints must become pure and spotless and look upon sin with abhorrence need not make us feel hopeless. Most people know they are neither pure nor spotless, and may actually look upon sin as enticing and desirable -- but forbidden. Except for Jesus Christ, every person who has ever been sanctified felt impure and unworthy. The difference is the sanctified learn to be obedient to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, and thus are led and changed until they became worthy of sanctification.

Be not dismayed by the apparent enormity of the task at hand. All these wonderful changes and purity of purpose begin to happen as natural consequences of the process of sanctification. We can either attempt to climb this mountain by ourselves -- in which case it is an impossible task -- or we can yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and let the Savior carry us up the mountain in the arms of His love.

[Lee]

This discussion is very stimulating; I am sincerely enjoying the many reactions to Amonhi's introduction of the topic. I do not question anybody's sincerity on their posts. Each person is discussing what he/she genuinely believes from his/her personal knowledge and experience. I have learned from these many posts and thank you for your thoughtful input. I'd like to ask a question, perhaps a little negative [sorry about that], to provoke some more thought. The question is: Why do we, as a Church, teach that all men must come unto Christ and we labor diligently to bring them unto Christ and then when they do come unto Christ, in a very literal sense, we oftentimes roundly condemn them? This is a pattern in this forum and has been a pattern that I have observed in the Church for years. I know that fear that this person who claims CE is being deceived is one big reason they are condemned. This may be a valid concern, but must not be a fear spawned by a lack of faith-we should have faith that it is factually possible for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as taught in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its scriptures, to lead us into the very presence of the Savior. I honestly believe all of those who have claimed, in this discussion, to have personally experienced the Savior's love in his very presence and/or have received a sure knowledge by the Holy Spirit of Promise that they will be exalted [CE]. I don't doubt that they have experienced what they say they have, and that, like Paul and Joseph Smith expressed, what other people say will not change the facts.

To further my previous reflection from the Book of Mormon that we are in a time when we are challenged to seek our CE, I refer you to two twentieth century prophets:

In our hymnal, Bruce R, McConkie strategically placed two notes, two challenges if you will accept them as such, for us to seek to receive our CE. Hymn # 21, verse 4:"Then heed the words of truth and light, That flow from fountains pure. Yea, keep His law with all thy might Till thine election's sure, Till thou shalt hear the holy voice Assure eternal reign, While joy and cheer attend the choice, As one who shall obtain." Hymn 134, verse 4: "I believe in Christ; he stands supreme! From him I'll gain my fondest dream; And while I strive through grief and pain, His voice is heard: 'Ye shall obtain.' I believe in Christ; so come what may, With him I'll stand in that great day When on this earth he comes again To rule among the sons of men."
Clearly, this is a specific call for us to rise to the level of faith to receive our calling and election made sure.

In Marion G. Romney's 1977 talk entitled "The Light of Christ," he challenges all of those present [general conference priesthood meeting] to receive the Holy Ghost in their daily lives and to further seek to receive their calling and election made sure. He closes with the following thought:"I know that everyone who, following the whisperings of the Spirit, develops faith, is baptized, and receives the Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands by those having authority, may, by compliance with the teachings of the gospel, receive the gifts and the power of the Holy Ghost. And I bear further witness that every such person who, having come this far, will follow the Prophet’s admonition to 'continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God' (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 150), may obtain the more sure word of prophecy [CE].'"

I earnestly hope that [no matter what our level of knowledge or experience] we each come to a place of faith, wherein we individually can embrace the thought that it truly is possible for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as taught today in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to lead us, through personal revelation [as mentioned in so many posts], back into the Savior's presence.

[Helaman]

I've never claimed to know what they know or don't know. But neither do you know what they know or don't know . . . and that's part of the point. Helaman, in helping to suck every last bit of fresh air out of the discussion, you help make my point(s) far better than I ever could. Thank you.

+1

Consider, though, the horror Helaman has seen. It has poisoned his perception (no, Helaman, before you jump on me, this is NOT an insult). It would have done the same to me, had I experienced it. Every* person who claims a spiritual experience is a bogeyman, a demon in sheep's clothing, an evil shadow plotting to trip you up and suck you down to dwell with the demons in hell. It is such a fear that would drive me to insanity if I had it.


*Excepting ordained apostles and prophets of the Church, I expect (I would hope, anyway).

Umm, no. Not every one. I'm not the commie under every rock guy. I'm the kind of guy that is a skeptic, who subscribes to the philosophies of the New Atheists/Richard Dawkins/James Randi/Skeptical Society/Skeptics Guide to the Universe, using the word skeptic in sense of "Mythbusters," NOT atheism. I am not an atheist by any means, but I am certainly among the ideology of the skeptics and New Atheists that call people out on BS. And also, being a Temple Worker, I know where the line in the sand is drawn between innocently being part of a group and hearing some dude tell you his ideas and reading his books, and where that turns in to something harmful, where it becomes damnable and covenant-breaking if they subscribe to the philosophy. This is where Denver Snuffer's ideology is damaging, spiritually damaging to gullible people, and I refuse to allow it to go unchallenged. Because it leads people to break covenants. Furthermore, I could care less most of the time if someone tells you something they ought not. The result of that is that the Lord is displeased with them, not that they have sinned a grevious sin. Its that people get on here and claim special callings, and special knowledge, and that they have a duty to dispense that, or to call those in authority to repentance.

So no, its not about jumping on anyone that claims he has seen Christ. Its about the exposure of practices that are damaging to other people. I absolutely think all of you should get your Second Comforter experience. I think you should just shut up about it after it happens.

Ed Goble

[sbsion]

recieve the "mighty change"

[AshleyB]

.

[Gad]

You certainly have an ax to grind Helaman. You have made your opinions quite known. In fact, you have been shouting them in every thread. I question whether you really are who you claim to be at this point. But, not that it matters. You will continue on in this bitter quest of yours. Good luck with that.

+1 Amen!

I've had to unsubscribe to certain threads due to the spirit of contention invading.

[ATL Wake]

So no, its not about jumping on anyone that claims he has seen Christ. Its about the exposure of practices that are damaging to other people. I absolutely think all of you should get your Second Comforter experience. I think you should just shut up about it after it happens.

Ed Goble

But what if Christ tells you not to?

[Helaman]

You certainly have an ax to grind Helaman. You have made your opinions quite known. In fact, you have been shouting them in every thread. I question whether you really are who you claim to be at this point. But, not that it matters. You will continue on in this bitter quest of yours. Good luck with that.

Who am I then? My name is Ed Goble. Do you use your real name? I do. Do you want to meet somewhere and I can show you a drivers license and birth cert and social sec card? Do you want me to show you my records from my baptism and priesthood ordinations? Do you want to see my tax returns that all have my address on them?

[ATL Wake]

This is where Denver Snuffer's ideology is damaging, spiritually damaging to gullible people, and I refuse to allow it to go unchallenged. Because it leads people to break covenants. Furthermore, I could care less most of the time if someone tells you something they ought not. The result of that is that the Lord is displeased with them, not that they have sinned a grevious sin. Its that people get on here and claim special callings, and special knowledge, and that they have a duty to dispense that, or to call those in authority to repentance.

Ed Goble

Helaman, I have seen in a few threads that you are deeply concerned about others breaking their covenants by speaking ill against the Lord's anointed.

You said you liked "The Second Comforter". I'm not sure that book could be written by someone who had NOT seen Christ. The whole, "by your fruits ye shall know them." If the fruits (the book) are good, then the tree (writer) is too.

So what if Denver has been ministered to by the Lord? My guess is that IF that happened, he was probably also anointed by the Lord as well. Odds are, you should stop speaking ill yourself.

[Helaman]

So no, its not about jumping on anyone that claims he has seen Christ. Its about the exposure of practices that are damaging to other people. I absolutely think all of you should get your Second Comforter experience. I think you should just shut up about it after it happens.

Ed Goble

But what if Christ tells you not to?

What you choose to do is not my problem.

[ATL Wake]

Who am I then? My name is Ed Goble. Do you use your real name? I do. Do you want to meet somewhere and I can show you a drivers license and birth cert and social sec card? Do you want me to show you my records from my baptism and priesthood ordinations? Do you want to see my tax returns that all have my address on them?

Matt 5:37

[ATL Wake]

But what if Christ tells you not to?

What you choose to do is not my problem.[/quote]

Well, it kind of becomes your problem when one obeys Christ and you start getting all uppity about it.