The Fastest Way to Make Your Calling and Election Sure

[Thomas]

Stourme wrote: The Lord doesn't work outside this organization. Never. God has never claimed to send angels to ordain anyone outside this organization. If He did He would create competition in the gospel. The gospel would be divided and God would be divided.

What office do the 3 Nephites hold in this organization? What about John the Beloved. Where are their membership records? I believe their priesthood line comes from Christ directly and bypasses the COJCOLDS completely.


You think you can put limits on what God can and cannot do. I would say, God is in charge and can do anything he wants to do. he works with other religions, even non Christian ones

Stourme wrote: If you want to know you're standing before God, go to your Bishop and ask for a priesthood blessing. Ask for a patriarchal blessing. Read it if you want to know you're standing before God, go to your Bishop and ask for a priesthood blessing.

Why would I ask the Bishop? My salvation has nothing to do with him. It is between me and Christ.

41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.

Christ does this himself. He does not turn this duty over to men who can be deceived.

The duty devolves upon us to know God and know God's will concerning us. This duty cannot be delegated to priesthood authorities.

Section Five 1842-43, p.237

President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.

If you want to follow the advice of prophets, then learn what their advice is. Joseph Smith was the founder of this religion. If his words are false then it doesn't matter what any who came after him say or do, the whole religion would be false.

The same can be said of the Book of Mormon. If the words therein are false then the whole religion is false. Hear the words of the prophet Nephi. He knows the way to salvation. he has been there and knows haw to lead

Nephi counsels us to be baptized by water and then be baptized with fire by the Holy Ghost. At that point we are to obey all things the Holy Ghost tells us to do.

2 Nephi 32:

5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

I would suggest a reading of 2 Nephi 31-32. The path is spelled out there and my Bishop is not involved in the process nor is any prophet.

If you can recall a recent talk given by the late great Boyd K Packer, he said the church leaders do not represent the members. They represent the prophet to the members. In other words, it is a one way street. The way for you to represent yourself to God is through Jesus Christ directly. You must know and commune with him. No one will do this for you.

As Joseph Smith said :

An actual knowledge to any person that the course of life which he pursues is according to the will of God, is essentially necessary to enable him to have that confidence in God, without which no person can obtain eternal life. It was this that enabled the ancient saints to endure all their afflictions and persecutions, and to take joyfully the spoiling of their goods, knowing, (not believing merely,) that they had a more enduring substance (Hebrews 10:34).

3 Having the assurance that they were pursuing a course which was agreeable to the will of God, they were enabled to take, not only the spoiling of their goods, and the wasting of their substance, joyfully, but also to suffer death in its most horrid forms; knowing, (not merely believing,) that when this earthly house of their tabernacle was dissolved, they had a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens (2 Corinthians 5:1).

4 Such was and always will be the situation of the saints of God, that unless they have an actual knowledge that the course that they are pursuing is according to the will of God, they will grow weary in their minds and faint; for such has been and always will be the opposition in the hearts of unbelievers and those that know not God, against the pure and unadulterated religion of heaven, (the only thing which ensures eternal life,) that they will persecute, to the uttermost, all that worship God according to his revelations, receive the truth in the love of it, and submit themselves to be guided and directed by his will, and drive them to such extremities that nothing short of an actual knowledge of their being the favorites of heaven, and of their having embraced that order of things which God has established for the redemption of man, will enable them to exercise that confidence in him necessary for them to overcome the world, and obtain that crown of glory which is laid up for them that fear God.

http://lecturesonfaith.com/6.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Your Bishop, Stake President or prophet is not in a position to tell you all things you must do. The Holy Ghost is in that position. You must submit and be directed by the will of God to obtain salvation not please some man.

[freedomforall]

It's hard to believe how easily some people are persuaded to cling to every word by so called C&E experts or anyone believing them. How many here see it as a case of precepts of men mingled with scripture? And to deny, or even imply that it will not happen, that is that people will go out of this life with hope and faith sunk deep into their soul and not get a celestial reward. Scriptures are clear that they can and will. But these gurus have a higher agenda that stands out as a warning sign to some of us. As far as I'm concerned when people ignore the word of God and put their own mindset in its place and call it God's word, I will go far and around such doctrine. And these gurus bear down hard against any opposition to their own beliefs, even those who have read scriptures many, many times.
The MMP crowd was doing the very same thing. And yet it is the one's that don't fall for such doctrine that receives the ridicule and mocking in both of these arenas. I thought we were warned in scripture against flattery and priestcrafts.

[zionminded]

I think you'll find that the C&E experts, or any MMP "crowd", have you turn to the Lord rather strongly for everything. There are some wolves in sheep clothing however... but just because it doesn't come from SLC, doesn't mean it's not true.

[freedomforall]

Christ does this himself. He does not turn this duty over to men who can be deceived.

You sure about this?

What does the Lord say to us?

John 13:20
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

So your assertion is not quite on target, right? The Lord does in fact present his will through men.

Another similar statement by the Lord is this:

D&C 84:36,37
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

Or how about this from:

Matt. 10:40 (40–42)
40 ¶He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Or is the Lord in the habit of telling us fibs?

[freedomforall]

I think you'll find that the C&E experts, or any MMP "crowd", have you turn to the Lord rather strongly for everything. There are some wolves in sheep clothing however... but just because it doesn't come from SLC, doesn't mean it's not true.

Doesn't mean it is either. We have been given the free will (agency) to act or to be acted upon. In other words, if people are smart and wise enough to read scriptures and then pray about their meaning, the Lord will reveal the truth to them...this knowledge is then used to discern false doctrine when it sticks its head up.
True, accurate learnings from scripture doesn't have to come from SL, it comes to us through the Holy Ghost, but we have to want to know with all our heart truth as truth contained in scripture, not philosophies of men mingled with scripture. If more people would feast upon the words of Christ there would be a lot more corroboration instead of chaos and contention over points of doctrine. This fact is in the book as well, btw.

If we want to be a Zion people, hadn't we better got our minds going in the same direction? After all, we are supposed to be one with Christ and one with the Father, are we not? How can this be accomplished with so many different views of scriptures and their true meaning? How can we come to see eye to eye with Christ if we all are bickering over his gospel?
The same bickering and contention occurred thousands of years ago. Are we not merely repeating history? True knowledge of scripture can only come through pray and study, not from some people not knowing what they are talking about. The power of discernment is what is needed in order to tell the difference. And where do we get the power of discernment? This brings us right back to the beginning...the Holy Ghost.

Has anyone read where all blessings come from? Are we not supposed to seek spiritual gifts of the Spirit with all diligence? Are gifts not meant to bless and become a benefit to our fellow beings?

And so that we are not deceived, we are to earnestly ask for gifts of the Spirit.

D&C 46:8-12
8 Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived seek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given;
9 For verily I say unto you, they are given for the benefit of those who love me and keep all my commandments, and him that seeketh so to do; that all may be benefited that seek or that ask of me, that ask and not for a sign that they may consume it upon their lusts.
10 And again, verily I say unto you, I would that ye should always remember, and always retain in your minds what those gifts are, that are given unto the church.
11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.
12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.

[Zathura]

I rather enjoy reading Stourme's posts, I'm reminded of the Pharisee's and Sadducees. No matter how often he claims that these people are decieved and mislead and that they have wrested the scriptures, they come back with multiple scriptures and quotes that back up everything they claim, and yet he keeps on coming. Way to be persistent

I love the light and truth that I have found in this forum and specifically this thread. Many people here have changed my life and they don't even know it.

[Thomas]

Christ does this himself. He does not turn this duty over to men who can be deceived.

You sure about this?

What does the Lord say to us?

John 13:20
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

So your assertion is not quite on target, right? The Lord does in fact present his will through men.

Another similar statement by the Lord is this:

D&C 84:36,37
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

Or how about this from:

Matt. 10:40 (40–42)
40 ¶He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Or is the Lord in the habit of telling us fibs?

Oh ya, I forgot the prophet goes to each and every member, all 14 million of them and tells them all things they should do. Consults with them every five minutes. Either that or maybe Nephi knew what he was talking about when he said the Holy Ghost will tell us all things we should do. The Holy ghost can be our constant companion.

I think I know what it is with you and Stourme is that you want the easy way. Just look to some man, like the Bishop, once a week and as long as you pay your tithing then all is well. Just say, I accept this man as a prophet and all is done. God requires the sacrifice of all things to obtain eternal life. Or did God lie when he said this:

5 For a man to lay down his all, his character and reputation, his honor and applause, his good name among men, his houses, his lands, his brothers and sisters, his wife and children, and even his own life also, counting all things but filth and dross for the excellency of the knowledge of Jesus Christ, requires more than mere belief, or supposition that he is doing the will of God, but actual knowledge: realizing, that when these sufferings are ended he will enter into eternal rest; and be a partaker of the glory of God.

6 For unless a person does know that he is walking according to the will of God, it would be offering an insult to the dignity of the Creator, were he to say that he would be a partaker of his glory when he should be done with the things of this life. But when he has this knowledge, and most assuredly knows that he is doing the will of God, his confidence can be equally strong that he will be a partaker of the glory of God.

Go ahead and preach the easy path. The masses will be there to greet you.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there

[freedomforall]

I rather enjoy reading Stourme's posts, I'm reminded of the Pharisee's and Sadducees. No matter how often he claims that these people are decieved and mislead and that they have wrested the scriptures, they come back with multiple scriptures and quotes that back up everything they claim, and yet he keeps on coming. Way to be persistent

I love the light and truth that I have found in this forum and specifically this thread. Many people here have changed my life and they don't even know it.

So what trumps, majority rule or true meaning of scripture? Before you answer, remember the gifts of he spirit that are offered to those who really seek them, D&C 46. Is not one of them the gift of discernment? The ability to detect false doctrine and bring it to light? Or are they supposed to keep quiet and pretend everything is going well in Zion? Are the gifts to be swept under a rug along with the better parts of truth?

Merely wondering. Hint: profound, high intellect doesn't count. Even a caveman could understand God's word with some effort and prayer.

[freedomforall]

Christ does this himself. He does not turn this duty over to men who can be deceived.

You sure about this?

What does the Lord say to us?

John 13:20
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

So your assertion is not quite on target, right? The Lord does in fact present his will through men.

Another similar statement by the Lord is this:

D&C 84:36,37
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

Or how about this from:

Matt. 10:40 (40–42)
40 ¶He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Or is the Lord in the habit of telling us fibs?

Oh ya, I forgot the prophet goes to each and every member, all 14 million of them and tells them all things they should do. Consults with them every five minutes. Either that or maybe Nephi knew what he was talking about when he said the Holy Ghost will tell us all things we should do. The Holy ghost can be our constant companion.

I think I know what it is with you and Stourme is that you want the easy way. Just look to some man, like the Bishop, once a week and as long as you pay your tithing then all is well. Just say, I accept this man as a prophet and all is done. God requires the sacrifice of all things to obtain eternal life. Or did God lie when he said this:

5 For a man to lay down his all, his character and reputation, his honor and applause, his good name among men, his houses, his lands, his brothers and sisters, his wife and children, and even his own life also, counting all things but filth and dross for the excellency of the knowledge of Jesus Christ, requires more than mere belief, or supposition that he is doing the will of God, but actual knowledge: realizing, that when these sufferings are ended he will enter into eternal rest; and be a partaker of the glory of God.

6 For unless a person does know that he is walking according to the will of God, it would be offering an insult to the dignity of the Creator, were he to say that he would be a partaker of his glory when he should be done with the things of this life. But when he has this knowledge, and most assuredly knows that he is doing the will of God, his confidence can be equally strong that he will be a partaker of the glory of God.

Go ahead and preach the easy path. The masses will be there to greet you.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there

Go ahead, mock away. It matters not. Your sarcasm and haughty attitude says volumes far surpassing any real knowledge. This seems to be the MO for those who only want to rant. You have clearly, adamantly mocked the Savior for I posted his words...not mine.
Oh, and don't take into account that we are to feast upon the words of Christ and be taught by the Holy Ghost the truth of all things. And do not bother to recognize that the word of God was written on some form of material we could read from, written by the hand of men. Were they not God's servants? Your rationale seems clouded to say the least. When was the last time God visited you in person and told you everything there is written in scripture, Thomas?
I conclude that you think all modern day prophets or church leaders, or even people who truly know the word of God are merely full of hot air. Yet you'll listen to anyone that rants about the church and its leaders and truly consider everything they have to say and give it no thought as to whether or not they are full of hot air.
It's no wonder I and some others here snicker at the strange rationale of some posters. If only you could hear yourselves.
Myself, Stourme and some others here are not perfect nor claim to be. We merely want the church and its leaders to get more credit for being where they are supposed to be at the time they are supposed to be, doing what they are supposed to be doing...as servants of God...no less than the writers of God's word we gain knowledge from.
When we receive God's true, honest, righteous and humble servants we receive him...his counsel to us, right?
Is studying, pondering, seeking answers from God and applying new knowledge considered THE EASY WAY? Quite an assumption on your part.
You seem to forget one important, vital truth...God many times uses other men and woman in this life to answer our questions, guided by him in doing so. If you go about disregarding this fact, then you will miss out on a lot of spiritual experiences.
Here's an example: for many years I asked God what it meant to walk by faith. The answer came years later in a copy of the Ensign, written by a man who was at the time a servant of God. I again learned it from scripture after much study and pondering. I think one can find a good answer written by some MEN in the Lectures On Faith. You might want to check it out sometime. The answer is quite profound.

[Stourme]

I think you'll find that the C&E experts, or any MMP "crowd", have you turn to the Lord rather strongly for everything.

So do the evangelical anti-Mormons, what's your point?

There are some wolves in sheep clothing however... but just because it doesn't come from SLC, doesn't mean it's not true.

D & C 42
11 Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

How do you go from here ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

to

there \/ ???????

There are some wolves in sheep clothing however... but just because it doesn't come from SLC, doesn't mean it's not true.

Maybe we're not talking about the same person or something...Ok, I'm quoting Jesus Christ the Son of God. Who are you referring to...Zeus??

[freedomforall]

I think you'll find that the C&E experts, or any MMP "crowd", have you turn to the Lord rather strongly for everything.

So do the evangelical anti-Mormons, what's your point?

There are some wolves in sheep clothing however... but just because it doesn't come from SLC, doesn't mean it's not true.

D & C 42
11 Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

How do you go from here ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

to

there \/ ???????

There are some wolves in sheep clothing however... but just because it doesn't come from SLC, doesn't mean it's not true.

Maybe we're not talking about the same person or something...Ok, I'm quoting Jesus Christ the Son of God. Who are you referring to...Zeus??

I suppose too many people go beyond the mark and miss the whole point. Too busy trying to discredit God's will and word for the sake of winning a debate. This is MHO of course.

[Thomas]

Christ does this himself. He does not turn this duty over to men who can be deceived.

You sure about this?

What does the Lord say to us?

John 13:20
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

So your assertion is not quite on target, right? The Lord does in fact present his will through men.

Another similar statement by the Lord is this:

D&C 84:36,37
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

Or how about this from:

Matt. 10:40 (40–42)
40 ¶He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Or is the Lord in the habit of telling us fibs?

Oh ya, I forgot the prophet goes to each and every member, all 14 million of them and tells them all things they should do. Consults with them every five minutes. Either that or maybe Nephi knew what he was talking about when he said the Holy Ghost will tell us all things we should do. The Holy ghost can be our constant companion.

I think I know what it is with you and Stourme is that you want the easy way. Just look to some man, like the Bishop, once a week and as long as you pay your tithing then all is well. Just say, I accept this man as a prophet and all is done. God requires the sacrifice of all things to obtain eternal life. Or did God lie when he said this:

5 For a man to lay down his all, his character and reputation, his honor and applause, his good name among men, his houses, his lands, his brothers and sisters, his wife and children, and even his own life also, counting all things but filth and dross for the excellency of the knowledge of Jesus Christ, requires more than mere belief, or supposition that he is doing the will of God, but actual knowledge: realizing, that when these sufferings are ended he will enter into eternal rest; and be a partaker of the glory of God.

6 For unless a person does know that he is walking according to the will of God, it would be offering an insult to the dignity of the Creator, were he to say that he would be a partaker of his glory when he should be done with the things of this life. But when he has this knowledge, and most assuredly knows that he is doing the will of God, his confidence can be equally strong that he will be a partaker of the glory of God.

Go ahead and preach the easy path. The masses will be there to greet you.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there

Go ahead, mock away. It matters not. Your sarcasm and haughty attitude says volumes far surpassing any real knowledge. This seems to be the MO for those who only want to rant. You have clearly, adamantly mocked the Savior for I posted his words...not mine.
Oh, and don't take into account that we are to feast upon the words of Christ and be taught by the Holy Ghost the truth of all things. And do not bother to recognize that the word of God was written on some form of material we could read from, written by the hand of men. Were they not God's servants? Your rationale seems clouded to say the least. When was the last time God visited you in person and told you everything there is written in scripture, Thomas?
I conclude that you think all modern day prophets or church leaders, or even people who truly know the word of God are merely full of hot air. Yet you'll listen to anyone that rants about the church and its leaders and truly consider everything they have to say and give it no thought as to whether or not they are full of hot air.
It's no wonder I and some others here snicker at the strange rationale of some posters. If only you could hear yourselves.
Myself, Stourme and some others here are not perfect nor claim to be. We merely want the church and its leaders to get more credit for being where they are supposed to be at the time they are supposed to be, doing what they are supposed to be doing...as servants of God...no less than the writers of God's word we gain knowledge from.
When we receive God's true, honest, righteous and humble servants we receive him...his counsel to us, right?
Is studying, pondering, seeking answers from God and applying new knowledge considered THE EASY WAY? Quite an assumption on your part.
You seem to forget one important, vital truth...God many times uses other men and woman in this life to answer our questions, guided by him in doing so. If you go about disregarding this fact, then you will miss out on a lot of spiritual experiences.
Here's an example: for many years I asked God what it meant to walk by faith. The answer came years later in a copy of the Ensign, written by a man who was at the time a servant of God. I again learned it from scripture after much study and pondering. I think one can find a good answer written by some MEN in the Lectures On Faith. You might want to check it out sometime. The answer is quite profound.

I guess I don't quite get what you are trying to say. Do you believe the Lectures on Faith or do you not? Because that is what I have been quoting in the last couple of posts.

Do you believe Joseph Smith was true messenger of God or do you not? Because Joseph Smith is the one who said to get your calling and election made sure.

As to Amonhi, I really don't care about his claims of being ordained by angel. It really doesn't matter but if it causes you to throw away true doctrine then it is your loss.

I have nothing against you. I have no personal animosity towards you. I don't want people to pass up on their chance for eternal life. The terms are laid out in the Bom and in the Lectures on Faith.

The scriptures you have posted are taken out of context as if they stand alone. Read all of D&C 84 and get the understanding of what it means. It defines who is saved and who is not. It is not by those two verses that salvation is obtained. You must be taken into the presence of the father and make a covenant with him to gain eternal life. You must follow the spirit to have that happen. Then you will receive the messengers. Then you will see Christ, Then the Father. you must complete the whole chapter not just two verses.


As for the mocking attitude, look in the mirror my friend.

[Zathura]

@freedomforall, I'm not sure what you were asking me when you quoted me. I only mentioned Stourme because he claims the link that Jeremy posted is false doctrine only because he's too hard hearted to accept anything outside of lds.org. I've never read anything that teaches what it means to recieve The Holy Ghost better than that link, and he straight up said it was false doctrine. I find it funny when people claim everything is false if it's not on LDS.org, because things like Lectures on Faith changed my life and you won't find that in the Church website.

The true meaning of scripture trumps, and yes people can detect false doctrine through that gift. idk what you're asking me!

[freedomforall]

As for the mocking attitude, look in the mirror my friend.

I went in in an attempt to look in the mirror as you suggested and I couldn't see myself due to too many self proclaimed intellectuals, those of which I can't even begin to compete with, from this very forum ahead of me trying to look good. I was truly ashamed of being in their company, not my cup of tea. Maybe you can show me by example how to worm ahead of them and do a better job with much less facade and a truer good nature. The self aggrandizement was not my aspiration whatsoever. I merely want to express God's true word the best I am able. Sorry. And having ischemic changes in my brain doesn't help my ability to articulate words in proper context either. In fact, it is very difficult. And even this condition is open for ridicule by so many such good and faithful Mormons, isn't it? For this reason I quote scriptures and not my own words where I think it is applicable. And even then God's word gets mocked. It's no wonder I get so frustrated. Go figure. But, hey, believe as you will, it's no skin off my nose. It is God you'll have to face, not me. With great pleasure I take solace in this fact.

Here is the proof in the pudding:

11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

We choose which direction we end up going.

[freedomforall]

@freedomforall, I'm not sure what you were asking me when you quoted me. I only mentioned Stourme because he claims the link that Jeremy posted is false doctrine only because he's too hard hearted to accept anything outside of lds.org. I've never read anything that teaches what it means to recieve The Holy Ghost better than that link, and he straight up said it was false doctrine. I find it funny when people claim everything is false if it's not on LDS.org, because things like Lectures on Faith changed my life and you won't find that in the Church website.

The true meaning of scripture trumps, and yes people can detect false doctrine through that gift. idk what you're asking me!

I may have misconstrued what you were saying, nothing new these days with increased ADD and short term memory loss due to Ischemic changes in my brain. Perhaps you were speaking nothing but good of Stourme, if so I apologize for any confusion. In rereading your post, I think now I, perhaps, erred. Sorry. I like a lot of things Stourme has to say as well as a few others on the forum. I hold with scorn those mocking the TBM's and even God's word when it suits them. I will not identify THEM. Their posts are evidence enough by their MO of mocking and ignoring a few important scriptures and attempting to belittle any who refuse to totally agree with them. It's an evident pattern as you will see soon enough. But, it is the challengers of such doctrine that get scorned. The arm of flesh is doing very well on the forum. God's word is only secondary, IMHO, that is.
Again, my apologies.
BTW, there is no mystery on how one gets the HG. I do know that by living righteously, one can have the Spirit as a constant companion, I have such a promise and so can anyone else that believes in trying to please God by being baptized and keeping his commandments and striving for perfection. Again there is no mystery here either. Scriptures are very clear on what it takes to live a clean virtuous life. The Holy Ghost will dwell with those doing so the best they are able. Otherwise, they have no promise, the HG will not dwell in unholy temples.
Upon being confirmed a member of the church post baptism, we hear the words, "we say unto you, receive the Holy Ghost." (perhaps not verbatim however) This is when we get the blessing, and the sins of the person baptized had all their sins washed away rendering them sinless at that moment. So why wouldn't the HG enter in right then and there? Then a person has to learn to recognize the promptings of the HG in order to benefit from having his presence. I don't know why so many people have to make this such a mystery and argue over it. Don't they read scriptures?

[Franco]

@freedomforall, I'm not sure what you were asking me when you quoted me. I only mentioned Stourme because he claims the link that Jeremy posted is false doctrine only because he's too hard hearted to accept anything outside of lds.org. I've never read anything that teaches what it means to recieve The Holy Ghost better than that link, and he straight up said it was false doctrine. I find it funny when people claim everything is false if it's not on LDS.org, because things like Lectures on Faith changed my life and you won't find that in the Church website.

The true meaning of scripture trumps, and yes people can detect false doctrine through that gift. idk what you're asking me!

I may have misconstrued what you were saying, nothing new these days with increased ADD and short term memory loss due to Ischemic changes in my brain. Perhaps you were speaking nothing but good of Stourme, if so I apologize for any confusion. In rereading your post, I think now I, perhaps, erred. Sorry. I like a lot of things Stourme has to say as well as a few others on the forum. I hold with scorn those mocking the TBM's and even God's word when it suits them. I will not identify THEM. Their posts are evidence enough by their MO of mocking and ignoring a few important scriptures and attempting to belittle any who refuse to totally agree with them. It's an evident pattern as you will see soon enough. But, it is the challengers of such doctrine that get scorned. The arm of flesh is doing very well on the forum. God's word is only secondary, IMHO, that is.
Again, my apologies.
BTW, there is no mystery on how one gets the HG. I do know that by living righteously, one can have the Spirit as a constant companion, I have such a promise and so can anyone else that believes in trying to please God by being baptized and keeping his commandments and striving for perfection. Again there is no mystery here either. Scriptures are very clear on what it takes to live a clean virtuous life. The Holy Ghost will dwell with those doing so the best they are able. Otherwise, they have no promise, the HG will not dwell in unholy temples.
Upon being confirmed a member of the church post baptism, we hear the words, "we say unto you, receive the Holy Ghost." (perhaps not verbatim however) This is when we get the blessing, and the sins of the person baptized had all their sins washed away rendering them sinless at that moment. So why wouldn't the HG enter in right then and there? Then a person has to learn to recognize the promptings of the HG in order to benefit from having his presence. I don't know why so many people have to make this such a mystery and argue over it. Don't they read scriptures?

Stahura blasted Stourme with this quote:

I rather enjoy reading Stourme's posts, I'm reminded of the Pharisee's and Sadducees. No matter how often he claims that these people are decieved and mislead and that they have wrested the scriptures, they come back with multiple scriptures and quotes that back up everything they claim, and yet he keeps on coming. Way to be persistent

[freedomforall]

@freedomforall, I'm not sure what you were asking me when you quoted me. I only mentioned Stourme because he claims the link that Jeremy posted is false doctrine only because he's too hard hearted to accept anything outside of lds.org. I've never read anything that teaches what it means to recieve The Holy Ghost better than that link, and he straight up said it was false doctrine. I find it funny when people claim everything is false if it's not on LDS.org, because things like Lectures on Faith changed my life and you won't find that in the Church website.

The true meaning of scripture trumps, and yes people can detect false doctrine through that gift. idk what you're asking me!

I may have misconstrued what you were saying, nothing new these days with increased ADD and short term memory loss due to Ischemic changes in my brain. Perhaps you were speaking nothing but good of Stourme, if so I apologize for any confusion. In rereading your post, I think now I, perhaps, erred. Sorry. I like a lot of things Stourme has to say as well as a few others on the forum. I hold with scorn those mocking the TBM's and even God's word when it suits them. I will not identify THEM. Their posts are evidence enough by their MO of mocking and ignoring a few important scriptures and attempting to belittle any who refuse to totally agree with them. It's an evident pattern as you will see soon enough. But, it is the challengers of such doctrine that get scorned. The arm of flesh is doing very well on the forum. God's word is only secondary, IMHO, that is.
Again, my apologies.
BTW, there is no mystery on how one gets the HG. I do know that by living righteously, one can have the Spirit as a constant companion, I have such a promise and so can anyone else that believes in trying to please God by being baptized and keeping his commandments and striving for perfection. Again there is no mystery here either. Scriptures are very clear on what it takes to live a clean virtuous life. The Holy Ghost will dwell with those doing so the best they are able. Otherwise, they have no promise, the HG will not dwell in unholy temples.
Upon being confirmed a member of the church post baptism, we hear the words, "we say unto you, receive the Holy Ghost." (perhaps not verbatim however) This is when we get the blessing, and the sins of the person baptized had all their sins washed away rendering them sinless at that moment. So why wouldn't the HG enter in right then and there? Then a person has to learn to recognize the promptings of the HG in order to benefit from having his presence. I don't know why so many people have to make this such a mystery and argue over it. Don't they read scriptures?

Stahura blasted Stourme with this quote:

I rather enjoy reading Stourme's posts, I'm reminded of the Pharisee's and Sadducees. No matter how often he claims that these people are decieved and mislead and that they have wrested the scriptures, they come back with multiple scriptures and quotes that back up everything they claim, and yet he keeps on coming. Way to be persistent

Thanks, Franco. I wish I could understand things people write in a manner of language that isn't obscure in its true meaning. As I age I find it harder to differentiate good remarks from remarks meant to demean and make fun of instead of posters just coming out with clear language that isn't ambiguous in nature. It could just be me these days.
I came to this forum over five years ago in hopes of conversing with what I assumed were good LDS's. However, there has been so much strife, so much contention that even I have gotten caught up in it. However, I keep trying to be valiant in my testimony of Christ, his church and his gospel...this is what makes it all worth it.
Political correctness does not exist with regard to Christ's teachings. Truth, real truth is what matters most even if other people fight against it with their own philosophies mingled with scriptures.

[Zathura]

I see. I'm open to everything that everybody needs to say, and it saddens me greatly when I see members of this church tell others that they have been decieved, and that they didnt really see what they say they saw. If someone presents a different opinion than mine, that's fine, but why tell someone they have been decieved and are teaching false doctrine? Especially when what they say does have merit when looking at scripture? The Pharisees said the exact same thing to Christ. I have come to the point that it's easier to speak about the Doctrine of Christ and his Gospel with Protestants than with many Mormons,who get too caught up in some traditions. For some people in all religions, their Church becomes their God, and they slow their own progression. I come here to hear everyone's opinion to help myself along the path to Christ, I don't think it's necessary to attack anyone that has a different opinion.

Why come to this forum if you don't want to learn, and instead just want to tell everyone that their experience was false,and their revelation was flawed? I mentioned Stourme because that's all i see him post about, tearing down others experiences, and telling them to go to lds.org. Lectures on Faith changed my life, not on lds.org. The link that Jeremy posted that talks about the Baptism of Fire changed my life a year ago. Through much study and prayer and wrote my own essay using certain scriptures and talks on lds.org, and when i found that very link, that essay teaches the exact same things. My chest burned within me as I read it almost like a full baptism of the Spirit, The Spirit fell upon me with such power that i knew it was a confirmation from God that what he taught me through prayer and study was true. Then Stourme says that the essay that changed my life is false doctrine and directs jeremy to lds.org. If you read conference talks you will piece together everything that is taught on that link anyway.. Read David Bednar's talks.This saddens me more than when people on my mission slammed the door shut on me. How many members of this Church claim that they will enter the Celestial Kingdom after "enduring to the end" only to realize they will not dwell in that kingdom at the last day?

@freedomforall, no it's no mystery how we are to recieve the Spirit for anybody that reads the scriptures. Ask the average member however, when they were born again. Most will say they were born again when they were baptized in the water. Ask them when they had the baptism of fire, most will say when they were confirmed a member of the church.(some are, but lets be honest, most don't have that until later)
The Apostles have taught very subtly what the Doctrine of Christ is, but only those who have ears to hear will actually understand it, hence why David Bednar creates that parable about the pickles. Many don't understand it. On my mission, I shared this knowledge that I had obtained with everyone i could, and of all the missionaries that I told, only 1 had already learned these things. Only 3 had recognized that they had already had teh Baptism of Fire,but just didn't know what that wonderful experience was. but it wasnt when they were confirmed.
How about the rest of the missionaries? If i never shared these things, how long would it have taken for them to understand that they hadn't been spiritually born of God? What if they never came to that realization?

Were God's true messengers every accepted with open arms by the majority? I'll take light and truth from wherever it comes, regardless of what my traditions taught me in the past. I love this forum

[freedomforall]

I see. I'm open to everything that everybody needs to say, and it saddens me greatly when I see members of this church tell others that they have been decieved, and that they didnt really see what they say they saw. If someone presents a different opinion than mine, that's fine, but why tell someone they have been decieved and are teaching false doctrine? Especially when what they say does have merit when looking at scripture? The Pharisees said the exact same thing to Christ. I have come to the point that it's easier to speak about the Doctrine of Christ and his Gospel with Protestants than with many Mormons,who get too caught up in some traditions. For some people in all religions, their Church becomes their God, and they slow their own progression. I come here to hear everyone's opinion to help myself along the path to Christ, I don't think it's necessary to attack anyone that has a different opinion.

Why come to this forum if you don't want to learn, and instead just want to tell everyone that their experience was false,and their revelation was flawed? I mentioned Stourme because that's all i see him post about, tearing down others experiences, and telling them to go to lds.org. Lectures on Faith changed my life, not on lds.org. The link that Jeremy posted that talks about the Baptism of Fire changed my life a year ago. Through much study and prayer and wrote my own essay using certain scriptures and talks on lds.org, and when i found that very link, that essay teaches the exact same things. My chest burned within me as I read it almost like a full baptism of the Spirit, The Spirit fell upon me with such power that i knew it was a confirmation from God that what he taught me through prayer and study was true. Then Stourme says that the essay that changed my life is false doctrine and directs jeremy to lds.org. If you read conference talks you will piece together everything that is taught on that link anyway.. Read David Bednar's talks.This saddens me more than when people on my mission slammed the door shut on me. How many members of this Church claim that they will enter the Celestial Kingdom after "enduring to the end" only to realize they will not dwell in that kingdom at the last day?

@freedomforall, no it's no mystery how we are to recieve the Spirit for anybody that reads the scriptures. Ask the average member however, when they were born again. Most will say they were born again when they were baptized in the water. Ask them when they had the baptism of fire, most will say when they were confirmed a member of the church.(some are, but lets be honest, most don't have that until later)
The Apostles have taught very subtly what the Doctrine of Christ is, but only those who have ears to hear will actually understand it, hence why David Bednar creates that parable about the pickles. Many don't understand it. On my mission, I shared this knowledge that I had obtained with everyone i could, and of all the missionaries that I told, only 1 had already learned these things. Only 3 had recognized that they had already had teh Baptism of Fire,but just didn't know what that wonderful experience was. but it wasnt when they were confirmed.
How about the rest of the missionaries? If i never shared these things, how long would it have taken for them to understand that they hadn't been spiritually born of God? What if they never came to that realization?

Were God's true messengers every accepted with open arms by the majority? I'll take light and truth from wherever it comes, regardless of what my traditions taught me in the past. I love this forum

I think I understand the dilemma. Without exposing myself to an abundance of open ridicule I will say this. I know what it is like to be baptized with fire and he HG. Some people call it the refiner's fire. Scriptures call it being born again, having evil rooted out of us. It also says that God will try our reins and heart to see if we will remain faithful and committed. But I think whatever it is called everything is all inclusive. Repentance is painful sometimes. To have Fire and the HG is to have all of our sins remitted and to be changed from a carnal nature to a righteous nature and to learn to abhor sin. Once sins have been remitted, the HG fills that person with peace and joy, all pain, anguish, torment and guilt having been swept away. However, if people were to watch themselves and stand in holy places at all times, this experience would possibly not be necessary. I have also experienced the horrifying buffetings of Satan.

D&C 82:21
21 And the soul that sins against this covenant, and hardeneth his heart against it, shall be dealt with according to the laws of my church, and shall be delivered over to the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption.

My experiences have given me some knowledge as to how the HG works and what it feels like to have guilt, pain, anguish and torment intensified to the point that suicide looks real good. And these people who treat my experiences with disdain, ridicule and belittling remarks...within the last five years...make me :ymsick:
I hope they do not have to experience such a horrifying experience. I was merely foolish to try and escape the wrath of God. Afterward, I have thanked him so much for having that much mercy as to remove my sins even if it was painful at the time. I know what it is to be born again.

[Zathura]

I agree with everything you said.What a blessing it is to know what it is to be born again, and to have been born again. For me it has been hard to stay there. The path doesn't get any easier, but harder. After entering the straight and narrow path is when the fiery darts start coming, and when you fall it's a pain to get back up.

[Thomas]

You absolutely must have the baptism if fire. You cannot enter the kingdom of heaven without it.

[Zathura]

The problem is, so many people are told that they had it at their confirmation(and maybe they actually did) And they never think twice about whether or not they actually did, and they could spend years(or a lifetime) not having a clue that they had never been Born of God.

[Finrock]

Christ does this himself. He does not turn this duty over to men who can be deceived.

You sure about this?

What does the Lord say to us?

John 13:20
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

So your assertion is not quite on target, right? The Lord does in fact present his will through men.

Another similar statement by the Lord is this:

D&C 84:36,37
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

Or how about this from:

Matt. 10:40 (40–42)
40 ¶He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Or is the Lord in the habit of telling us fibs?

How do you know who is a real servant? I agree and believe in the scripture "For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me". Who is God's servant or who are God's servants? What makes one God's servant? A title? A position?

-Finrock

[Finrock]

I think I understand the dilemma. Without exposing myself to an abundance of open ridicule I will say this. I know what it is like to be baptized with fire and he HG. Some people call it the refiner's fire. Scriptures call it being born again, having evil rooted out of us. It also says that God will try our reins and heart to see if we will remain faithful and committed. But I think whatever it is called everything is all inclusive. Repentance is painful sometimes. To have Fire and the HG is to have all of our sins remitted and to be changed from a carnal nature to a righteous nature and to learn to abhor sin. Once sins have been remitted, the HG fills that person with peace and joy, all pain, anguish, torment and guilt having been swept away. However, if people were to watch themselves and stand in holy places at all times, this experience would possibly not be necessary. I have also experienced the horrifying buffetings of Satan.

D&C 82:21
21 And the soul that sins against this covenant, and hardeneth his heart against it, shall be dealt with according to the laws of my church, and shall be delivered over to the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption.

My experiences have given me some knowledge as to how the HG works and what it feels like to have guilt, pain, anguish and torment intensified to the point that suicide looks real good. And these people who treat my experiences with disdain, ridicule and belittling remarks...within the last five years...make me :ymsick:
I hope they do not have to experience such a horrifying experience. I was merely foolish to try and escape the wrath of God. Afterward, I have thanked him so much for having that much mercy as to remove my sins even if it was painful at the time. I know what it is to be born again.

I appreciate you sharing your experience because I can relate to it in many ways. I am sorry that you have had to endure such suffering where taking your life feels better. It is really horrible! I am also glad that you have found salvation from those feelings in the atonement of Jesus Christ!

-Finrock

[freedomforall]

You absolutely must have the baptism if fire. You cannot enter the kingdom of heaven without it.

I think you are correct.
Did you know that the Holy Ghost is the fire?

D&C 19:31
31 And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost.

This tells us that once we are baptized the HG then enters and we are made clean. This is only the beginning however, for we must continue in repentance in order to continually remain clean. Bad choices along the way can cause the HG to depart. Then when we decide to shape up and live right, the repentance process is required and so is the buffetings of Satan.
We also have to be truly converted to the gospel, each and every one of us. That conversion most often includes a painful repentance, having evil rooted out of us.
Scriptures are a lot more explicit than my weak explanation.