The Fastest Way to Make Your Calling and Election Sure

[Thomas]

There is a difference between keeping a private sacred moment secret and preaching of Christ. A C&E is something the Lord wants for us and we need to know that. Nephi was inspired to tell us so were others.

[Helaman]

I don't know Amonhi is fraud or not but he doesn't seem to be trying to gather a following like the the person Helaman described. Amonhi has asked us to pray. Pretty good advice in my book. I don't think Amonhi is advocating we do away with with physical ordinances. I think he's saying God can do whatever he wants and the spirt has to ratify any physical ordinance.

If he starts saying otherwise, I will ignore him.

I don't think it is a bad thing to share a C&E with us. The BoM is full of examples of people sharing this. There are also others, after the modern restoration.

If we can't rely on prayer and the guidance of the spirit, we are all lost, no matter how guilible or cautious we may be. Prayer and the spirit is what brought most of us to the church. Is anybody suggesting we can't trust our prayers in this matter?

Nephi has suggested we seek an audience with our Savior.

Some anti-Mormon sites warn people against praying about the church and how they will be deceived by a false spirit.

The problem with false messengers in the Church, is that to be believable, they have to be more stealthy. Remember. I'm just some guy. You can do whatever you want. It's no skin off my back if you want to give this guy the benefit of the doubt. You have your free agency, but you have also been warned by someone who has been there more than once with the likes of him.

[Thomas]

I don't know Amonhi is fraud or not but he doesn't seem to be trying to gather a following like the the person Helaman described. Amonhi has asked us to pray. Pretty good advice in my book. I don't think Amonhi is advocating we do away with with physical ordinances. I think he's saying God can do whatever he wants and the spirt has to ratify any physical ordinance.

If he starts saying otherwise, I will ignore him.

I don't think it is a bad thing to share a C&E with us. The BoM is full of examples of people sharing this. There are also others, after the modern restoration.

If we can't rely on prayer and the guidance of the spirit, we are all lost, no matter how guilible or cautious we may be. Prayer and the spirit is what brought most of us to the church. Is anybody suggesting we can't trust our prayers in this matter?

Nephi has suggested we seek an audience with our Savior


Some anti-Mormon sites warn people against praying about the church and how they will be deceived by a false spirit.

The problem with false messengers in the Church, is that to be believable, they have to be more stealthy. Remember. I'm just some guy. You can do whatever you want. It's no skin off my back if you want to give this guy the benefit of the doubt. You have your free agency, but you have also been warned by someone who has been there more than once with the likes of him.

Believe me, I'm not follwing him. I will continue to follow the spirit and read the scriptures. I just think some will arrest their progress because of fear. We should all seek a closer relationship with Christ.

[HeirofNumenor]

I don't know Amonhi is fraud or not but he doesn't seem to be trying to gather a following like the the person Helaman described. Amonhi has asked us to pray. Pretty good advice in my book. I don't think Amonhi is advocating we do away with with physical ordinances. I think he's saying God can do whatever he wants and the spirt has to ratify any physical ordinance.

If he starts saying otherwise, I will ignore him.

I don't think it is a bad thing to share a C&E with us. The BoM is full of examples of people sharing this. There are also others, after the modern restoration.

If we can't rely on prayer and the guidance of the spirit, we are all lost, no matter how guilible or cautious we may be. Prayer and the spirit is what brought most of us to the church. Is anybody suggesting we can't trust our prayers in this matter?

Nephi has suggested we seek an audience with our Savior.

Some anti-Mormon sites warn people against praying about the church and how they will be deceived by a false spirit.

The Book of Mormon is a collection of records made by a Prophet, who drew heavily on the writings and accounts of Prophets who preceded him..some of those writings were left intact in the original, but in the whole he abridged them...drawing on the Holy Ghost to instruct him on what was important to include...all individuals noted who were in the presence of Christ at sometime of their mortal lives were prophets (except the 2,500+ Nephites who witnessed to the resurrected Saviour, and formed the basis of a consecrated society); and the few individuals listed who come closer to C&E than the Second Comforter (presence of Christ) - were also prophets & apostles...and also many got long-term translated (Alma the Younger, Nephi son of Helaman (also got Sealing Power), 3 Nephites, maybe Ether)...only Brother of Jared is recorded as died after a major audience with Saviour (more detailed than say, Lehi & sons, or Mormon & Moroni)...

The point of me drawing the distinction is that for the sake of scripture that was divinely intended to be used by later generations, it was important for us that those accounts be included - that is not the same as justifying that we should be seeking after that...while we should be striving to be worthy of meeting the Lord - should HE choose to grant us that blessing, it is not meet that we run faster than we have strength, nor should we be asserting ourselves to jump ahead and to reach out and claim that privilege...line upon is in the scriptures for a reason....

Besides, once you get a divine manifestation - even if only angels....Satan gets equal time to deceive....and he does everything he can to make the most of the opportunity....he doesn't come as the classical depiction of Satan (horns, tail, pitchfork), nor does he have to come as some incredibly grotesque twisted being, or even a darkly brooding man....most likely, if we are focused on reaching the Saviour before we are truly ready for it (Nephi 2 proved himself worthy to the Lord BEFORE he got the Sealing Power)...than Satan will appear as an angel of light - and he may appear to us BEFORE the Lord does...seizing the opportunity to get his misinformation in before Jesus does....remember, Brigham Young said that "the devil is a perfect gentleman"...

Nephi has suggested we seek an audience with our Savior.

As I see it....Nephi saying "Come unto Christ and be perfected in all things" is not saying to strive for Calling & Election, but rather more to wear out your lives in doing righteousness, worshiping God and serving your fellow man...and be prepared to meet the Lord after death and enter into His rest...if God decides you deserves a manifestation in mortality, that's His prerogative...

We should be praying...but rather than praying to obtain a blessing that is likely far beyond our capacity to handle, we should be praying to continue/better do the Lord will and work...living up to our temple covenants, magnifying our callings, doing temple work, proclaiming Gospel, perfecting the Saints (helping them be better and doing our callings), and helping the poor, hungry, etc...

Then the great blessings will come naturally on their own, in the own due time of the Lord...

[Thomas]

I'm really in no position to be Amonhi's advocate, nor do I want to be. He very well could have a malicous agenda.

I think the blessing of eternal life is one we should all be striving for not one that is beyond our capicity to handle. I know very few are ready to receive a C&E but it probably should be a goal. If we continue to think it is only for those in the past or for only very special people, we will not try to obtain it.

[marc]

I have no doubt about the Book of Mormon's purpose(s). On another note, as Thomas points out regarding advocating Amonhi (and others), I also agree and will not advocate him, though his testimony about C&E is no less valid. I only advocate what the Savior taught through his prophets. I have also read very well constructed essays and articles, wholly supported by scripture like the one Lee shared above. All witnesses ought to point to Christ. There is a difference between keeping things secret and keeping things sacred and the reasons may vary as the number of people expressing the opinion. But a man does not hide his light under a bushel. He puts it on a candlestick to give light to all who are in the house. It is this way for sharing the gospel whether praying to receive an answer about the truth of the Book of Mormon or to follow in the path of those who wrote it. The principle is the same. A person must be willing to take those steps to become pure in order for the Spirit to work in him or her. This was the case for those who accepted the message of the gospel and were baptized while I served a mission in Germany many years ago. It is also the case for what Joseph Smith and even the Savior said. We must purify ourselves, be obedient in all things, and keep our eye single to the Glory of God. When we do these things as prescribed by the Lord, Himself, we will receive that Holy Spirit of Promise.

1 Ephesians
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your
salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of
promise,
14 Which is the *earnest* of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased
possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The brother of Jared, Lehi, Nephi, and many others received this promise, before they received the actual reception of the Second Comforter, which is the *earnest* of our inheritence.

D&C 88:3-5
3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it
may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the
same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.
4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of
the celestial kingdom;
5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all,
through Jesus Christ his Son

It is my testimony that these scriptures are true. This promise is available to all, even today. Christ is knocking at each of our doors, continually. The door opens only one way.

John 14
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

[tmac]

I just want to say thanks to those, including Amonhi, Lee, Jules, TBS, Reese, Coach, and everyone else who have been willing to talk about, and explain the spiritual possibilities that are available to everyone, in this life, through Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, and to attempt to be witnesses of such things, as well as those who are simply willing to discuss such things openly and undefensively -- indeed, much more like little children, without letting asserted intellectual superiority, fear, skepticism and condemnation completely dominate the discussion.

All I can say is that for anyone who is truly seeking to come unto Christ, and to better understand the steps, the principles, and how they apply, and how it actually happens, this open forum is probably not the best place to attempt to discuss it.

[Helaman]

I just want to say thanks to those, including Amonhi, Lee, Jules, TBS, Reese, Coach, and everyone else who have been willing to talk about, and explain the spiritual possibilities that are available to everyone, in this life, through Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, and to attempt to be witnesses of such things, as well as those who are simply willing to discuss such things openly and undefensively (much more like little children), without letting asserted intellectual superiority, fear, skepticism and condemnation completely dominate the discussion, and without attempting to hold themselves up as self-appointed judges and jurors of anything and everything anyone else has to say and treat these discussions as trials over which they preside.

All I can say is that for anyone who is truly seeking to come unto Christ, and to better understand the steps, the principles, and how they apply, and how it actually happens, this open forum is not the best place to attempt to discuss it. Even those who may actually know something of what they are talking about are quickly shouted down by those who, despite their own possible good intentions, at the very most can only say that they don't really know, and the positions they assert are completely dominated by fear, doubt and darkness, but are nonetheless determined to criticize, chastise and condemn those who openly discuss such things, and attempt to scare the begeebers out of everyone else, and turn what might otherwise be a spiritual discussion into a contentious, purely intellectual one from which every last shred of the spirit has been completely sucked out . . . while they proudly and self-assuredly pat themselves on the backs for what they have done.

Umm, actually you have no idea what some people know or what they don't know. They just don't talk about it, because they know they shouldn't, contrary to false messengers. So if I were you, I would hold your tongue about the qualifications of those who you think are merely naysayers.

[tmac]

I've never claimed to know what they know or don't know. But neither do you know what they know or don't know . . . and that's part of the point. Helaman, in helping to suck every last bit of fresh air out of the discussion, you help make my point(s) far better than I ever could. Thank you.

[Helaman]

I've never claimed to know what they know or don't know. But neither do you know what they know or don't know . . . and that's part of the point.

No see, actually you miss the point. You presume that naysayers have no qualifications, just because they don't talk about their own qualifications, and their own experiences, because only people that come on here and conveniently proclaim that they have had such experiences are the only people who have said anything about it.

[reese]

I just want to say thanks to those, including Amonhi, Lee, Jules, TBS, Reese, Coach, and everyone else who have been willing to talk about, and explain the spiritual possibilities that are available to everyone, in this life, through Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, and to attempt to be witnesses of such things, as well as those who are simply willing to discuss such things openly and undefensively (much more like little children), without letting asserted intellectual superiority, fear, skepticism and condemnation completely dominate the discussion, and without attempting to hold themselves up as self-appointed guardians of the faith -- judges and jurors of anything and everything anyone else has to say and treat these discussions as trials over which they preside.

All I can say is that for anyone who is truly seeking to come unto Christ, and to better understand the steps, the principles, and how they apply, and how it actually happens, this open forum is not the best place to attempt to discuss it. Even those who may actually know something of what they are talking about are quickly shouted down by those who, despite their own possible good intentions, at the very most can only say that they don't really know, and the positions they assert are completely dominated by fear, doubt and darkness, but are nonetheless determined to criticize, chastise and condemn those who openly discuss such things, and attempt to scare the begeebers out of everyone else, and turn what might otherwise be a spiritual discussion into a contentious, purely intellectual one from which every last shred of the spirit has been completely sucked out . . . while they proudly and self-assuredly pat themselves on the backs for what they have done.

The fruits produced, ie.-which spirit is brought with each person commenting, makes it pretty clear which side everyone falls on.

[Rob]

and the positions they assert are completely dominated by fear, doubt and darkness, but are nonetheless determined to criticize, chastise and condemn those who openly discuss such things, and attempt to scare the begeebers out of everyone else, and turn what might otherwise be a spiritual discussion into a contentious, purely intellectual one from which every last shred of the spirit has been completely sucked out . . . while they proudly and self-assuredly pat themselves on the backs for what they have done.

Let's back up a step...

Amonhi, have you seen the face of Jesus Christ and did he tell you that you will inherit Eternal Life?

Yes. But it was 2 months after I received the promise. I balled in his arms like a baby. He healed me. One of the many precious experiences of my life.

Amonhi claims to have not only seen Christ, but to have been "in his arms". That should, at the very least, raise an eyebrow.

As for the doctrinal discussion, thanks to all involved.

[marc]

The final words of a prophet who hid up the records to you and to me in the last days:

Moroni 7

3 Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven...
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil...
27 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased because Christ hath ascended into heaven, and hath sat down on the right hand of God, to claim of the Father his rights of mercy which he hath upon the children of men?...
29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men....
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.
36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

Moroni 10

7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.
8 And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them...
19 And I would exhort you, my beloved brethren, that ye remember that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and that all these gifts of which I have spoken, which are spiritual, never will be done away, even as long as the world shall stand, only according to the unbelief of the children of men.
24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief...
26 And wo unto them who shall do these things away and die, for they die in their sins, and they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God; and I speak it according to the words of Christ; and I lie not...
27 And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust?

30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing...
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

The promise of our God:

D&C 93:1

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

What greater testimonies can we have than these?

[Helaman]

And yet Ed claims to speak FOR and in behalf of Christ......

Wrong. I don't recall making that claim so cut out the putting of words in my mouth. I'm one guy with an opinion that I stated. You can take it or leave it. It's not my problem what you do with it. I'm just not going to stand idly by and let people go unchallenged on issues that are so critical

[reese]

Amonhi claims to have not only seen Christ, but to have been "in his arms". That should, at the very least, raise an eyebrow.

Really? Being in His arms is one of the things I most look forward to when I finally see Him again.

[Rob]

Amonhi claims to have not only seen Christ, but to have been "in his arms". That should, at the very least, raise an eyebrow.

Really? Being in His arms is one of the things I most look forward to when I finally see Him again.

Mine's a simple point. When a guy gets on the internet and tells the world he spent time with the Savior, that should make you wonder.

[awake]

When a guy gets on the internet and tells the world he spent time with the Savior, that should make you wonder.

Or at least it should make us 'question' such declarations.

It seems most people just easily believe and assume such persons are telling the truth, since they seem so convincing and often intelligent.

It seems very few take the time to test such person's 'teachings, beliefs and behaviors', against what the 'scriptures' say, to see if they are even living righteously or not to even be worthy of such experiences.

While I do believe there are a few individuals on earth who are having such experiences with Christ, I believe that many, if not most all, such persons who claim it, are being deceived by false Christs, and thus they go on to easily deceive others who fall for them and their many false doctrines.

We must be very careful when someone makes such claims, no matter who they are or what position they may hold. We have to question & test everyone and their doctrine, no matter how wonderful, wise and intelligent they may seem.

[shestalou]

I am usually lurking but I just have to thank those that are helping us to reach eternal exaltation in a judgemental society even by those that are suppose to be helping promote the work of the Lord, keep up this excellent subject for it is the most important part of the plan of salvation and please only God can judge not us.

[Rob]

Very well said, awake.

[Original_Intent]

When a guy gets on the internet and tells the world he spent time with the Savior, that should make you wonder.

Or at least it should make us 'question' such declarations.

It seems most people just easily believe and assume such persons are telling the truth, since they seem so convincing and often intelligent.

It seems very few take the time to test such person's 'teachings, beliefs and behaviors', against what the 'scriptures' say, to see if they are even living righteously or not to even be worthy of such experiences.

While I do believe there are a few individuals on earth who are having such experiences with Christ, I believe that many, if not most all, such persons who claim it, are being deceived by false Christs, and thus they go on to easily deceive others who fall for them and their many false doctrines.

We must be very careful when someone makes such claims, no matter who they are or what position they may hold. We have to question & test everyone and their doctrine, no matter how wonderful, wise and intelligent they may seem.

Or there is a third option: To me it is neither here nor there whether they have had the experience or not. "But OI!" you might say "surely it matters whether they are telling the truth about THAT, because if not we know they are liars and we can ignore anything else they have to say."

Well, I suppose that is true if the Lord opts to confirm to you that they had the experience. I think it is a little more pragmatic to go to the Lord asking about whether the advice is good. Or if it is self-evident such as pray more, try to develop a personal relationship with the Savior - why would I not want to follow that advice, even if they have lied or been deceived themselves about an experience that they had.

We each individually are not going to be saved or damned based on someone else's experience. What should matter is what are they exhorting us to do? I think many here err as badly as if they were putting too much trust in the arm of flesh by focusing on whether this or that claim is true (and in all honesty, passing judgement on the matter that they almost certainly lack the facts on.)

As far as the quotes from genereal authorities, it seems that they warn of TWO things together; those claiming such experiences AND claiming some calling or authority from such. It seems like the people that we have been obsessing about lately, though they claim the former, if anything go out of their way to state they do not have the latter. Amonhi did claim to be one of the 144,000, which 1)I am very skeptical of, and 2) again I am not required to have a testimony of Amonhi being one of the 144,000. The question is, has he geiven advice or counsel that is bad or that we clearly should not be following? Nothing that I have seen.

[A Random Phrase]

Gideon, you make excellent points - worth heeding.

So, I take it then, you would have been with my former home teaching companion when I lived in Magna, UT, who apostatized. And was excommunicated because I finally brought it to his bishop's attention when I sent him a letter that Dalton was secretly gathering followers over the internet.

etc.

Ed Goble

I did not mean cynical in an insulting way, though I see by looking at an online dictionary that it seems to have only negative connotations.

Now that you share some of your experiences I see, very clearly, where you are coming from. I would be cynical if I saw such horrors happening, and I would not be insulted if someone considered me to be cynical in such a case. You are obviously justified in your paradigm.

The fact that I am not outright rejecting everything Amonhi has written does not mean that I'm about to run after him and demand who he is so that I can become a follower. I have had extensive experience with all sorts of people. I have learned to be wary. And, the truth is, I've not felt a confirming Spirit in what he has been preaching. (As an example: the title of this thread - which implies, to me, a "hurry up and get your c&e," which does not seem to match how God does things. We are more often frustrated because whatever he promises/prophesies doesn't come quickly enough to suit us. Also, Joseph Smith said that it would come only after God had proven us.)

As for the new poster, it seemed no one had addressed his post. I considered it common courtesy to reply, so I replied with the question I had been thinking about.

Well, I've not read the other posts yet, so off to read them now.

[awake]

I think it is a little more pragmatic to go to the Lord asking about whether the advice is good. Or if it is self-evident such as pray more, try to develop a personal relationship with the Savior - why would I not want to follow that advice, even if they have lied or been deceived themselves about an experience that they had.

Yes, I agree, following 'true' advice will never hurt us, but I have just seen so many people fall for persons with such claims and then also fall for their false doctrine that they mingle with a lot of true doctrine. That's where it gets tricky.

If a person really had such an experience with Christ and thus achieved the extremely high level of righteousness that such experiences and promises requires, then I do not believe they would be teaching alot of false doctrine. That is what gives them away. That's how we tell true prophets from false prophets. (Small or large P)

[A Random Phrase]

I'm really in no position to be Amonhi's advocate, nor do I want to be. He very well could have a malicous agenda.

I think the blessing of eternal life is one we should all be striving for not one that is beyond our capicity to handle. I know very few are ready to receive a C&E but it probably should be a goal. If we continue to think it is only for those in the past or for only very special people, we will not try to obtain it.

You make excellent points, Thomas. In all of your posts I have just read, not just this one.

[A Random Phrase]

I only advocate what the Savior taught through his prophets.

True, Coach. We can listen to each other, but the bottom line is to listen to the Savior and His words.

All I can say is that for anyone who is truly seeking to come unto Christ, and to better understand the steps, the principles, and how they apply, and how it actually happens, this open forum is not the best place to attempt to discuss it. Even those who may actually know something of what they are talking about are quickly shouted down by those who, despite their own possible good intentions, at the very most can only say that they don't really know, and the positions they assert are completely dominated by fear, doubt and darkness, but are nonetheless determined to criticize, chastise and condemn those who openly discuss such things, and attempt to scare the begeebers out of everyone else, and turn what might otherwise be a spiritual discussion into a contentious, purely intellectual one from which every last shred of the spirit has been completely sucked out . . . while they proudly and self-assuredly pat themselves on the backs for what they have done.

Tmac, I have never read a truer post out of the hundreds I have ever read here.

[A Random Phrase]

I've never claimed to know what they know or don't know. But neither do you know what they know or don't know . . . and that's part of the point. Helaman, in helping to suck every last bit of fresh air out of the discussion, you help make my point(s) far better than I ever could. Thank you.

+1

Consider, though, the horror Helaman has seen. It has poisoned his perception (no, Helaman, before you jump on me, this is NOT an insult). It would have done the same to me, had I experienced it. Every* person who claims a spiritual experience is a bogeyman, a demon in sheep's clothing, an evil shadow plotting to trip you up and suck you down to dwell with the demons in hell. It is such a fear that would drive me to insanity if I had it.


*Excepting ordained apostles and prophets of the Church, I expect (I would hope, anyway).