LDS Freedom Forum

Original_Intent wrote:

freedomforall wrote:

Jeremy wrote:How can the Holy Ghost be the third personage in the godhead if the godhead only has two personages?

The Holy Ghost is a personage of SPIRIT, not of flesh and bones. The Father and Son without the Holy Ghost would be like a radio announcer without a microphone. The Holy Ghost witnesses of the Father and the Son. He guides and directs people here on earth for the Father and Son. He knows the mind and will of the F and S. The F and S cannot be everywhere at the same time, but the HG can.

Because of this the Lectures on Faith were removed from Canon. I know there is a HG because he has spoken to me many times. Having the HG as a constant companion would be like being near the Father and Son all the time.

This is one of those posts that challenge my patience.

Really? THE Holy Ghost can be all places at once? How does that align with our understanding of personages of spirit - can they be everywhere at once? Are they so large that they fill the universe, and yet so small that He can dwell in your heart?

Clue...read the scriptures. The Holy Ghost is talked about all over the place.

Rejection of these truths challenge my patience, so we're even.

I have posted Acts 2:33 several times already, yet no one comments on it. What does that tell us?
If there is no HG then what or who is it that Christ, Himself, received. What is the promise that goes along with it?

From 2:33 "promise of the Holy Ghost". Can anyone deny this?

The Holy Ghost

President Marion G. Romney

Second Counselor in the First Presidency
The Holy Ghost

My beloved brothers and sisters, wherever you are and whoever you are, I invite you to join in the request made in the opening prayer that the Spirit of the Lord will be with us during this meeting. Because of the subject I have chosen to speak about, it must be with us while I speak or my words will be but an exercise in futility.

The first Article of Faith [A of F 1:1] of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints reads: “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”

A year ago we spoke of God, the Eternal Father. Six months later our theme was Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Today we shall call attention to some divinely revealed truths concerning the Holy Ghost.

The scriptures all teach about the Holy Ghost. They frequently refer to him as the Comforter, the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, or the Spirit of the Lord.

According to these scriptures the Holy Ghost is a person.

“The Father,” said the Prophet Joseph Smith, “has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. …” (D&C 130:22.)

Jesus referred to the Holy Ghost as a male person. Speaking to his disciples, he said:

“… It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.” (John 16:7. Italics added.)

And further,

“… when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

“He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” (John 16:13–14. Italics added.)

“That the [Holy Ghost] is capable of manifesting Himself in the form and figure of man,” wrote Dr. James E. Talmage, “is indicated by the wonderful interview between the Spirit and Nephi, in which He revealed Himself to the prophet, questioned him concerning his desires and belief, instructed him in the things of God, speaking face to face with the man. ‘I spake unto him,’ says Nephi, ‘as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.’” (Discourses on the Holy Ghost, comp. N. B. Lundwall, Bookcraft, Inc., 1959, p. 13.)

“… there are three,” says John the Beloved, “that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” (1 Jn. 5:7), signifying, of course, they are one in understanding and purpose. Of them the Prophet Joseph said:

“… these three are one; or, in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things; by whom all things were created and made … and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one.” (Quoted in Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., Bookcraft, Inc., 1966, p. 320.)

As a member of the Godhead, and being one with the Father and the Son, the Holy Ghost is, as are the Father and the Son, omniscient. He comprehends all truth having a “knowledge of [all] things.” (D&C 93:24.)

As the light of Christ “proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space” (D&C 88:12), so the influence, power, and gifts of the Holy Ghost may be manifest everywhere at the same time.

Statements in the scriptures such as “the Holy Ghost fell on [him]” (Acts 11:15), “filled with the Holy Ghost” (Luke 1:15), “the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:38), “receive … the Holy Ghost” (John 20:22), baptized by “fire and the Holy Ghost” (D&C 20:41) do not always refer to his person, but to his power, influence, and gifts.

One of the most important functions of the Holy Ghost is to testify of the Father and the Son. In the very day that the angel told Adam that the sacrifice he was offering was “a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, … the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam” testifying to him of the Father and the Son. (Moses 5:7, 9. Italics added.)

At the baptism of Jesus, the Holy Ghost bore witness to his divinity by “descending like a dove, and lighting upon him.” (Matt. 3:16.)

Every person who knows or has ever known that Jesus is the Christ has received that witness from the Holy Ghost.

“Wherefore I give you to understand,” wrote Paul to the Corinthians, “that no man speaking by the Spirit of God … can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.” (1 Cor. 12:3.)

Jesus implied this when responding to Peter’s declaration, “… Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” He said:

“… Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 16:16–17.)

The Holy Ghost not only bears witness to the divinity of the Father and the Son; he also bears witness to truth, particularly to gospel truths.

“… when ye shall read these things [speaking of the gospel truths contained in the Book of Mormon], … I would exhort you,” wrote Moroni, “that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.” (Moro. 10:3–4.)

And then he adds this great promise:

“And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.” (Moro. 10:5.)

Hundreds and thousands of people have accepted and acted upon this challenge and thereafter borne witness, by the power of the Holy Ghost, to its truth.

The Holy Ghost is not only a witness to the truth; he is also a great revealer and teacher of truth.

“If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15), said the Savior to his disciples.

“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, … which is the Holy Ghost, … [and] he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” (John 14:16, 26. Italics added.)

“And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, … take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

“For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.” (Luke 12:11–12. Italics added.)

“Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God,” wrote Paul to the Corinthians, “that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

“Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” (1 Cor. 2:12–13. Italics added.)

To the Holy Ghost we are indebted for our scriptures. Not only did he reveal the gospel truths they contain; he it was who gave the prophets the spirit of prophecy.

“… no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation”, said Peter.

“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Pet. 1:20–21.)

The record says that in the very beginning “the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, …

“[And he] blessed God and was filled [with the Holy Ghost], and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, …” (Moses 5:9–10.)

So it has ever been. Luke notes that Zacharias, the father of John the Baptist, “was filled with the Holy Ghost and prophesied, …” (Luke 1:67.)

The promise of the Lord in this last dispensation that “God shall give unto you knowledge … by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost” (D&C 121:26) poses the question as to the manner in which one may receive this unspeakable gift.

The prescribed manner is by the laying on of hands following faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance from sin, and baptism by immersion for the remission of sins.

This was the way the Holy Ghost was bestowed in the apostolic church.

“… when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

“Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

“(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

“Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 8:14–17.)

When Paul came to Ephesus and found certain disciples there, “He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

“And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

“Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

“When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

“And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.” (Acts 19:2–6.)

In prescribing the duties of elders in his latter-day church, the Lord said, among other things, that they were “to confirm those who are baptized into the church, by the laying on of hands for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, according to the scriptures.” (D&C 20:41.)

In calling several of the brethren to do missionary service, he said:

“… I give unto you a commandment that ye go among this people, and say unto them, like unto mine apostle of old, whose name was Peter:

“Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus. …

“Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, according to the holy commandment, for the remission of sins;

“And whoso doeth this shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of the hands of the elders of the church.” (D&C 49:11–14.)

The gift of the Holy Ghost is an endowment which gives one the right to enjoy the enlightenment, companionship, and guidance of the Spirit and the influence of the Holy Spirit as long as he complies with the commandments of God.

The importance of receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is beyond expression. It is the baptism of fire referred to by John. (See Luke 3:16.) It is the “spirit” birth of which Jesus spoke to Nicodemus:

“… Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5.)

Receiving the Holy Ghost is the therapy which effects forgiveness and heals the sin-sick soul.

The hallmark of the church of Christ, distinguishing it from all other churches and forms of worship, has ever been the receiving of the gift of the Holy Ghost by the membership of the Church.

This is what distinguishes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from all other organizations.

Following an interview with President Van Buren, the Prophet Joseph Smith and Elias Higbee wrote in 1839 from Washington, D.C., a letter to Hyrum Smith, in which they said:

“In our interview with the President, he interrogated us wherein we differed in our religion from the other religions of the day. Brother Joseph said we differed in mode of baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. We considered that all other considerations were contained in the gift of the Holy Ghost. …” (Documentary History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 42.)

And so it is, because the Holy Ghost is a revelator. The gift of the Holy Ghost “is the spirit of revelation; … [it] is,” said the Lord, “the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.” (D&C 8:3.)

It is the witness given by the Holy Ghost to the individual members of the Church that God lives; that Jesus Christ his son, is our Savior and Redeemer; that his gospel is the plan of salvation and the way to eternal life; and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is his church, possessing authority to preach the gospel and administer the saving ordinances thereof, which give vitality, strength, and power to the Church.

I bear to you, my brothers and sisters and friends, whoever you are and wherever you are, my personal witness to the truth of all these things to which I have called your attention.

The Holy Ghost has revealed to me that they are true. By his power I know that God lives; that we are his offspring; that Christ lives; that his gospel is true; that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is his church; that President Spencer W. Kimball is a prophet called by the Lord to preside over his church; that the Holy Ghost is a revealer of and a witness to these things; and that by his power each of us may, as Moroni declared, “know the truth of all things.” (Moro. 10:5.)

I humbly and sincerely invite all of you to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, to repent and be baptized in his name, and receive the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of the hands of the elders of His Church; and I invite you to thereafter follow his guidance.

All who do this shall be prepared to meet the Savior when he comes, for he has said:

“… at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

“For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

“And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.

“For the Lord shall be in their midst, and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver.” (D&C 45:56–59.)

That we may all, through following the guidance of the Holy Spirit, be prepared to “abide” that great day, I humbly pray in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Original_Intent wrote:

freedomforall wrote:

Jeremy wrote:How can the Holy Ghost be the third personage in the godhead if the godhead only has two personages?

The Holy Ghost is a personage of SPIRIT, not of flesh and bones. The Father and Son without the Holy Ghost would be like a radio announcer without a microphone. The Holy Ghost witnesses of the Father and the Son. He guides and directs people here on earth for the Father and Son. He knows the mind and will of the F and S. The F and S cannot be everywhere at the same time, but the HG can.

Because of this the Lectures on Faith were removed from Canon. I know there is a HG because he has spoken to me many times. Having the HG as a constant companion would be like being near the Father and Son all the time.

This is one of those posts that challenge my patience.

Really? THE Holy Ghost can be all places at once? How does that align with our understanding of personages of spirit - can they be everywhere at once? Are they so large that they fill the universe, and yet so small that He can dwell in your heart?

According to Marion G Romney...YEP! Read all about it above.

It's important to understand the identity of the HG.

freedomforall wrote:He knows the mind and will of the F and S.

So the Holy Ghost knows the Holy Spirit?

Q. Do the Father and the Son possess the same mind?

A. They do.

Q. What is the mind?

A. The Holy Spirit.

Q. Do the Father, Son and Holy Spirit constitute the Godhead?

A. They do.
D&C 1835 - Doctrine Part - Lecture 5

freedomforall wrote:The F and S cannot be everywhere at the same time, but the HG can.

Oh...crap?! Did Joseph (a prophet) lead us astray?!

We here observe that God is the only supreme governor, and independent being, in whom all fulness and perfection dwells; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient;...
D&C 1835 - Doctrine Part - Lecture 2:2

Webster's Dictionary 1828 - ONLINE EDITION - AMERICAN DICTIONARY OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE wrote:OMNIPRES'ENT, adjective Present in all places at the same time; ubiquitary; as the omnipresent Jehovah.

I wonder if the Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are the same thing. If they are, then something is wrong here. If they are different...well that makes a bit more sense then. But we cant rely on what makes sense, can we? We need the spirit to testify or ratify the principle... or maybe we can just ask our Home Teacher for a priesthood blessing and have the truth revealed that way.

Jeremy wrote:

freedomforall wrote:He knows the mind and will of the F and S.

So the Holy Ghost knows the Holy Spirit? I would think so since the Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost.

Q. Do the Father and the Son possess the same mind? Yes, or else they couldn't co-exist as Father and Son, our deity.

A. They do.

Q. What is the mind?

A. The Holy Spirit.

Q. Do the Father, Son and Holy Spirit constitute the Godhead?

A. They do.
D&C 1835 - Doctrine Part - Lecture 5

freedomforall wrote:The F and S cannot be everywhere at the same time, but the HG can.

Oh...crap?! Did Joseph (a prophet) lead us astray?!

We here observe that God is the only supreme governor, and independent being, in whom all fulness and perfection dwells; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient;...
D&C 1835 - Doctrine Part - Lecture 2:2

Webster's Dictionary 1828 - ONLINE EDITION - AMERICAN DICTIONARY OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE wrote:OMNIPRES'ENT, adjective Present in all places at the same time; ubiquitary; as the omnipresent Jehovah.

I wonder if the Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are the same thing. If they are, then something is wrong here. If they are different...well that makes a bit more sense then. But we cant rely on what makes sense, can we? We need the spirit to testify or ratify the principle... or maybe we can just ask our Home Teacher for a priesthood blessing and have the truth revealed that way.

The HG is a messenger and witness of and for the Father and the Son, and their mouthpiece...if you will.
Read what Marion G Romney says about the names used to reference the HG. Above.

A of F 1:1] of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints reads: “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”

I have posted Acts 2:33 several times already, yet no one comments on it. What does that tell us?
If there is no HG then what or who is it that Christ, Himself, received. What is the promise that goes along with it?

From 2:33 "promise of the Holy Ghost". Can anyone deny this?[/quote]
I doubt that my response will do any good but since you asked. The reference to the Holy Ghost was referring to the promise of the Father to his Son that the Father would give the Holy Ghost to those who believed in His Son .It isn't about what the Savior would receive but what his followers would receive. This promise was what Peter was talking about. The Holy Ghost was in fact poured out upon Peters audience as it was upon the Nephites. The Savior himself explains this clearly in 3Nephi19:20-21. Your welcome.

Jeremy wrote:

freedomforall wrote:He knows the mind and will of the F and S.

So the Holy Ghost knows the Holy Spirit? I would think so since the Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost.

How can they be the same? The Holy Ghost is a personage. The Holy Spirit it not.

freedomforall wrote:Read what Marion G Romney says about the names used to reference the HG. Above.

I did. I didn't see anything that resolves this issue. Can you help me out? What I did see was Marion say they are the same...I did not see how the gulf that separates a personage from a non-personage was bridged. Nor did I see how God is omnipresent, yet he can not be everywhere at once because he has a body of flesh and bone.

freedomforall wrote:“We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”

Yes, we do! :ymhug:

boo wrote:I have posted Acts 2:33 several times already, yet no one comments on it. What does that tell us?
If there is no HG then what or who is it that Christ, Himself, received. What is the promise that goes along with it?

From 2:33 "promise of the Holy Ghost". Can anyone deny this?

I doubt that my response will do any good but since you asked. The reference to the Holy Ghost was referring to the promise of the Father to his Son that the Father would give the Holy Ghost to those who believed in His Son .It isn't about what the Savior would receive but what his followers would receive. This promise was what Peter was talking about. The Holy Ghost was in fact poured out upon Peters audience as it was upon the Nephites. The Savior himself explains this clearly in 3Nephi19:20-21. Your welcome.[/quote]

...................................................................................................................................................................................
Read very closely. Who is the main subject being addressed here?

Acts 2:30-33
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore (Jesus) being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Jeremy wrote:

Jeremy wrote:

freedomforall wrote:He knows the mind and will of the F and S.

So the Holy Ghost knows the Holy Spirit? I would think so since the Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost.

How can they be the same? The Holy Ghost is a personage. The Holy Spirit it not.

freedomforall wrote:Read what Marion G Romney says about the names used to reference the HG. Above.

I did. I didn't see anything that resolves this issue. Can you help me out? What I did see was Marion say they are the same...I did not see how the gulf that separates a personage from a non-personage was bridged. Nor did I see how God is omnipresent, yet he can not be everywhere at once because he has a body of flesh and bone.

Marion said this:

The scriptures all teach about the Holy Ghost. They frequently refer to him as the Comforter, the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, or the Spirit of the Lord.

So should we change the article of faith to read: ...and in the Holy Spirit?
Or...in the Spirit of the Lord?
Or...in the Spirit of God?
etc.

The HG is the HS thus alleviating all confusion.

I'm still missing it. Someone help?! Please. Am I the only one who sees a paradox here?
Thanks for trying FFA. But I just do NOT see how that helps... other than I just take his word for it. But I want to KNOW. I want to understand.

freedomforall wrote:The HG is the HS thus alleviating all confusion.

Ummm... I feel retarded because clearly everyone else reading this has had their confusion (if there was any) alleviated. But not me... I see only confusion.

Jeremy wrote:I'm still missing it. Someone help?! Please. Am I the only one who sees a paradox here?
Thanks for trying FFA. But I just do NOT see how that helps... other than I just take his word for it. But I want to KNOW. I want to understand.

When Joseph Smith went to the grove to get answers, this is one of those times that the Father and Son visited mankind themselves instead of sending the HG.
Had God chosen to not come, He could have sent the HG to implant the truth into Joseph without a personal visit by God.
The HG is the HS, why, because the HG is pure, perfect and as stated in his name...Holy.
Holy Ghost
Holy Spirit
Holy Spirit of God

A child might get nervous when hearing the term Holy Ghost. "A ghost, mommy?" So, by saying Holy spirit, a child can accept this no problem.
But it is the same person being referred to.

freedomforall wrote:

Original_Intent wrote:

freedomforall wrote: The Holy Ghost is a personage of SPIRIT, not of flesh and bones. The Father and Son without the Holy Ghost would be like a radio announcer without a microphone. The Holy Ghost witnesses of the Father and the Son. He guides and directs people here on earth for the Father and Son. He knows the mind and will of the F and S. The F and S cannot be everywhere at the same time, but the HG can.

Because of this the Lectures on Faith were removed from Canon. I know there is a HG because he has spoken to me many times. Having the HG as a constant companion would be like being near the Father and Son all the time.

This is one of those posts that challenge my patience.

Really? THE Holy Ghost can be all places at once? How does that align with our understanding of personages of spirit - can they be everywhere at once? Are they so large that they fill the universe, and yet so small that He can dwell in your heart?

According to Marion G Romney...YEP! Read all about it above.

I think you had better re-read it yourself and make sure you are not putting words in his mouth. Or interpreting what he said to match your own tradition. Yes, I would be VERY careful about leading the sons of Adam and the daughters of Eve astray by inserting my beliefs into quotes, and claiming someone said what they did not. As far as encouraging me to read the scriptures more, thank you. That is always good advice.

Original_Intent wrote:

freedomforall wrote:

Original_Intent wrote:
This is one of those posts that challenge my patience.

Really? THE Holy Ghost can be all places at once? How does that align with our understanding of personages of spirit - can they be everywhere at once? Are they so large that they fill the universe, and yet so small that He can dwell in your heart?

According to Marion G Romney...YEP! Read all about it above.

I think you had better re-read it yourself and make sure you are not putting words in his mouth. You first! Or interpreting what he said to match your own tradition. Yes, I would be VERY careful about leading the sons of Adam and the daughters of Eve astray by inserting my beliefs into quotes, and claiming someone said what they did not. As far as encouraging me to read the scriptures more, thank you. That is always good advice.

These are his words, word for word. Now hearing these words that's a different matter altogether. And I would be cautious as to throwing beliefs out there that are not in scripture. Just how do you think millions of prayers can be answered if the Holy Ghost were not able to be everywhere. If God didn't have help, answers to prayers could take hundreds of years because of the position of each prayer in the string. Is it like this? "You will be answered when your turn comes up." Somehow, I don't think so.

What part of this cannot be understood?
As the light of Christ “proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space” (D&C 88:12), so the influence, power, and gifts of the Holy Ghost may be manifest everywhere at the same time.

freedomforall wrote:The HG is the HS, why, because the HG is pure, perfect and as stated in his name...Holy.
Holy Ghost
Holy Spirit
Holy Spirit of God

I must not be expressing the conflict very well. Either way, I think there is another conflict and that is the idea that the Holy Ghost is called Holy because he is perfect. I though Joseph taught that the Holy Ghost is in a state of probation? Can a perfect being be in such a state?

The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. The Words of Joseph Smith

Jeremy wrote:

freedomforall wrote:The HG is the HS, why, because the HG is pure, perfect and as stated in his name...Holy.
Holy Ghost
Holy Spirit
Holy Spirit of God

I must not be expressing the conflict very well. Either way, I think there is another conflict and that is the idea that the Holy Ghost is called Holy because he is perfect. I though Joseph taught that the Holy Ghost is in a state of probation? Can a perfect being be in such a state?

The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. The Words of Joseph Smith

Depends on what the probation is. We do not know what probation is being inferred. I can only guess that it is because for now he is only a spirit. Some believe that the Holy Ghost will some day receive a body.
Whatever the probation is...it cannot be a bad one. The HG is right there next to deity being as "one" with them as written in scripture:


3 Nephi 11:27
27 And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.

Doctrine and Covenants 20:28
28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

2 Nephi 31:21
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Mormon 7:7
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

God, Godhead: SEE: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/god-g ... g&letter=g" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are three separate persons in the Godhead: God, the Eternal Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost. We believe in each of them (A of F 1:1). From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, without flesh and bone (D&C 130:22–23). These three persons are one in perfect unity and harmony of purpose and doctrine (John 17:21–23; 2 Ne. 31:21; 3 Ne. 11:27, 36).

God the Father:

It is generally the Father, or Elohim, who is referred to by the title God. He is called the Father because he is the father of our spirits (Mal. 2:10; Num. 16:22; 27:16; Matt. 6:9; Eph. 4:6; Heb. 12:9). God the Father is the supreme ruler of the universe. He is all powerful (Gen. 18:14; Alma 26:35; D&C 19:1–3), all knowing (Matt. 6:8; 2 Ne. 2:24), and everywhere present through his Spirit (Ps. 139:7–12; D&C 88:7–13, 41). Mankind has a special relationship to God that sets man apart from all other created things: men and women are God’s spirit children (Ps. 82:6; 1 Jn. 3:1–3; D&C 20:17–18).

There are few recorded instances of God the Father appearing to or speaking to man. The scriptures say that he spoke to Adam and Eve (Moses 4:14–31) and introduced Jesus Christ on several occasions (Matt. 3:17; 17:5; John 12:28–29; 3 Ne. 11:3–7). He appeared to Stephen (Acts 7:55–56) and Joseph Smith (JS—H 1:17). Later he appeared to both Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon (D&C 76:20, 23). To those who love God and purify themselves before him, God sometimes grants the privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves that he is God (Matt. 5:8; 3 Ne. 12:8; D&C 76:116–118; 93:1).

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?:Mark 15:34;
These men are the servants of the most high God:Acts 16:17;
We are the offspring of God:Acts 17:28–29;
Thou shalt offer thy sacraments unto the Most High:D&C 59:10–12;
Enoch beheld the spirits that God had created:Moses 6:36;
Man of Holiness is his name:Moses 6:57;

God the Son:

The God known as Jehovah is the Son, Jesus Christ (Isa. 12:2; 43:11; 49:26; 1 Cor. 10:1–4; 1 Tim. 1:1; Rev. 1:8; 2 Ne. 22:2). Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brothers and sisters, for he is the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Some scripture references refer to him by the word God. For example, the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1:1), but it was actually Jesus who was the Creator under the direction of God the Father (John 1:1–3, 10, 14; Heb. 1:1–2).

The Lord identified himself as I Am:Ex. 3:13–16;
I am the Lord [Jehovah], and beside me there is no savior:Isa. 43:11; ( Isa. 45:23; )
I am the light of the world:John 8:12;
Before Abraham was, I am:John 8:58;
The Lord shall minister among men in a tabernacle of clay:Mosiah 3:5–10;
Abinadi explained how Christ is the Father and the Son:Mosiah 15:1–4; ( Ether 3:14; )
The Lord appeared to the brother of Jared:Ether 3;
Listen to the words of Christ your Lord and your God:Moro. 8:8;
Jehovah is the judge of the quick and the dead:Moro. 10:34;
Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon:D&C 76:20, 23;
The Lord Jehovah appeared in the Kirtland Temple:D&C 110:1–4;
Jehovah spoke to Abraham:Abr. 1:16–19;
Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith:JS—H 1:17;

God the Holy Ghost:

The Holy Ghost is also a God and is called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, and the Spirit of God, among other similar names and titles. With the aid of the Holy Ghost, man can know the will of God the Father and know that Jesus is the Christ (1 Cor. 12:3).

The Holy Ghost will teach you what you should say:Luke 12:12;
The Holy Ghost is the Comforter:John 14:26; ( John 16:7–15; )
Jesus gave commandments to the Apostles through the Holy Ghost:Acts 1:2;
The Holy Ghost bears witness of God and Christ:Acts 5:29–32; ( 1 Cor. 12:3; )
The Holy Ghost also is a witness to us:Heb. 10:10–17;
By the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things:Moro. 10:5;
The Holy Ghost is the spirit of revelation:D&C 8:2–3; ( D&C 68:4; )

What part of this cannot be understood?
As the light of Christ “proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space” (D&C 88:12), so the influence, power, and gifts of the Holy Ghost may be manifest everywhere at the same time

What part of "the gifts, power, and influence of the Holy Ghost" is not equal to "the Holy Ghost" do YOU not understand?

The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. A personage has the form of a person. It's not the Force, binding the universe together. It's not the God of the imperfectly translated Bible that fills the universe but dwells in your heart.

That's as spelled out as you get it, brother.

freedomforall wrote:

boo wrote:I have posted Acts 2:33 several times already, yet no one comments on it. What does that tell us?
If there is no HG then what or who is it that Christ, Himself, received. What is the promise that goes along with it?

From 2:33 "promise of the Holy Ghost". Can anyone deny this?

I doubt that my response will do any good but since you asked. The reference to the Holy Ghost was referring to the promise of the Father to his Son that the Father would give the Holy Ghost to those who believed in His Son .It isn't about what the Savior would receive but what his followers would receive. This promise was what Peter was talking about. The Holy Ghost was in fact poured out upon Peters audience as it was upon the Nephites. The Savior himself explains this clearly in 3Nephi19:20-21. Your welcome.

...................................................................................................................................................................................
Read very closely. Who is the main subject being addressed here?

Acts 2:30-33
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore (Jesus) being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.[/quote]
Thanks for confirming my prophetic gifts. See it didn't do any good.

Original_Intent wrote:

What part of this cannot be understood?
As the light of Christ “proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space” (D&C 88:12), so the influence, power, and gifts of the Holy Ghost may be manifest everywhere at the same time

What part of "the gifts, power, and influence of the Holy Ghost" is not equal to "the Holy Ghost" do YOU not understand?

The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. A personage has the form of a person. It's not the Force, binding the universe together. It's not the God of the imperfectly translated Bible that fills the universe but dwells in your heart.

That's as spelled out as you get it, brother. Nonsense! Who's twisting things around now?

I'm not disagreeing in the least with you, but twisting my words around to suit your agenda I do disagree with.

I've already stated the the HG is a personage of spirit. Where were you?
I already know about the gifts of the spirit, having read D&C
I also know that the influence of the HG is everywhere at the same time, and have given corroborating evidence.
I also know that someone not understanding what I say, doesn't mean that what I say is false.
The scriptures describe deity as to whom they are and what they do. That's all I need to prove anything.
If I had interjected words into Marion's talk, show them to me, because they would be in color. Besides you can go to the source and KNOW i did nothing of the sort. So your accusations are unwarranted.

freedomforall wrote:

Original_Intent wrote:

What part of this cannot be understood?
As the light of Christ “proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space” (D&C 88:12), so the influence, power, and gifts of the Holy Ghost may be manifest everywhere at the same time

What part of "the gifts, power, and influence of the Holy Ghost" is not equal to "the Holy Ghost" do YOU not understand?

The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. A personage has the form of a person. It's not the Force, binding the universe together. It's not the God of the imperfectly translated Bible that fills the universe but dwells in your heart.

That's as spelled out as you get it, brother. Nonsense! Who's twisting things around now?

I'm not disagreeing in the least with you, but twisting my words around to suit your agenda I do disagree with.

I've already stated the the HG is a personage of spirit. Where were you?
I already know about the gifts of the spirit, having read D&C
I also know that the influence of the HG is everywhere at the same time, and have given corroborating evidence.
I also know that someone not understanding what I say, doesn't mean that what I say is false.
The scriptures describe deity as to whom they are and what they do. That's all I need to prove anything.
If I had interjected words into Marion's talk, show them to me, because they would be in color. Besides you can go to the source and KNOW i did nothing of the sort. So your accusations are unwarranted.

The F and S cannot be everywhere at the same time, but the HG can.

Original_Intent wrote:

This is one of those posts that challenge my patience.

Really? THE Holy Ghost can be all places at once? How does that align with our understanding of personages of spirit - can they be everywhere at once? Are they so large that they fill the universe, and yet so small that He can dwell in your heart?
freedomforall wrote: According to Marion G Romney...YEP! Read all about it above.

So yeah, I'm not twisting, here are two direct quotes from you that you flat out stated that the Holy Ghost can be everywhere at once, and you stated that it was right there in Marion G Romney's talk. So responding to what you clearly stated and supported and said was in the talk (which it was not) - that's what I am addressing, and I think these quotes make it pretty clear that there was no word twisting on my part.

Note to self: breathe the good air in, breathe the bad air out..

I doubt that my response will do any good but since you asked. The reference to the Holy Ghost was referring to the promise of the Father to his Son that the Father would give the Holy Ghost to those who believed in His Son .It isn't about what the Savior would receive but what his followers would receive. This promise was what Peter was talking about. The Holy Ghost was in fact poured out upon Peters audience as it was upon the Nephites. The Savior himself explains this clearly in 3Nephi19:20-21. Your welcome.[/quote]

...................................................................................................................................................................................
Read very closely. Who is the main subject being addressed here?

Acts 2:30-33
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore (Jesus) being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.[/quote]
Thanks for confirming my prophetic gifts. See it didn't do any good.[/quote]
Ok I guess I am as masochist but I will try ,on the limited chance that you may be open to additional light , again. The scripture does not say that the Savior received the Holy Ghost but that he received from the Father the "promise" of the Holy Ghost. What does it mean if a exalted being receives from the Father the" promise "of a gift but not the "gift" itself which gift would be "shed forth "( ie given to others. It means the Father promises to give the "gift" to whoever the Son designates. Those as 3 Nephi 19 shows us the real recipients of the Holy Ghost are the disciples of the Savior not the Savior himself. Your reading is contrary to the grammatical construction of the sentence and the fundamental principles of the gospel.

Original_Intent wrote:

Original_Intent wrote:

What part of this cannot be understood?
As the light of Christ “proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space” (D&C 88:12), so the influence, power, and gifts of the Holy Ghost may be manifest everywhere at the same time

What part of "the gifts, power, and influence of the Holy Ghost" is not equal to "the Holy Ghost" do YOU not understand?

The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. A personage has the form of a person. It's not the Force, binding the universe together. It's not the God of the imperfectly translated Bible that fills the universe but dwells in your heart.

That's as spelled out as you get it, brother. Nonsense! Who's twisting things around now?

The F and S cannot be everywhere at the same time, but the HG can.

Original_Intent wrote:

This is one of those posts that challenge my patience.

Really? THE Holy Ghost can be all places at once? How does that align with our understanding of personages of spirit - can they be everywhere at once? Are they so large that they fill the universe, and yet so small that He can dwell in your heart?
freedomforall wrote: According to Marion G Romney...YEP! Read all about it above.

So yeah, I'm not twisting, here are two direct quotes from you that you flat out stated that the Holy Ghost can be everywhere at once, and you stated that it was right there in Marion G Romney's talk. So responding to what you clearly stated and supported and said was in the talk (which it was not) - that's what I am addressing, and I think these quotes make it pretty clear that there was no word twisting on my part.

Note to self: breathe the good air in, breathe the bad air out..

But the truth is the Holy Ghost can be everywhere. I said it and so did Marion, and the BoM and D&C confirms it...so what's your problem? It sure the dickens is not mine!

Through modern revelation we are told that “the Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s, the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.” (D&C 130:22.)

Ask yourself these questions. Just how many is "us"? And where does "us" reside? If two people on opposite sides of the earth receive the gift of the Holy Ghost at the same time, does only one get it and the other has to wait? Verse 22 kind of answers these things for us does it not? As a personage of spirit it can dwell in multiple persons at the same time.

Jeremy wrote:I'm still missing it. Someone help?! Please. Am I the only one who sees a paradox here?
Thanks for trying FFA. But I just do NOT see how that helps... other than I just take his word for it. But I want to KNOW. I want to understand.

Jeremy I am confident that you already know and know more fully than I. Nonetheless I take the bait and say that I believe it is clear that the Holy Ghost and the holy spirit are not the same .Unfortunately the scriptures ,while inspired, are ultimately the words of fallible men and usually lack a careful definitional section such as you might find in a well crafted legal agreement. Hence ambiguities occur. The Holy Ghost dwells within us as a personage of spirit and our bodies are its temple. 1 Corth 6:19. As our deepest spiritual component it will have to pass through probations with us until we are ultimately exalted. Hence Joseph's statement that that the" Holy Ghost would have to pass through a similar course of things as the Son has" and as we will If we don't we can not inherit the things the Father has for us. Lectures on Faith 6 v 8.It is as we learn to follow its voice that we will reach our potential as sons of god. The Holy Spirit is the mind of God and the Godhead ( the father and son) Lectures on Faith #5. It can range throughout time and space since it is not confined to a body or spirit.Think of the Light of Christ D&C 88:7 Incidentally while I quite liked Marion G Romney and admired his willingness to talk about thing like C/E in general conference he was not infallible and think he made some errors in this talk.