LDS Freedom Forum

I know exactly what you are talking about TheBestSun. I feel like I keep going through the nephite wicked/Righteous cycle at an accelerated rate, instead of a few years for the nephites to turn from righteousness to wickedness I go through it in a few weeks or months.
Deep down it feels like there is something I can do to finally break free of the vicious cycle, I don't know if its because of a lack of faith or just my pride and stubbornness but I have never been able to break out of it no matter the convictions I have during the righteous cycle that I will never return to the sins my weakness always seem to overpower me.
I think a big part of my problem is I want to be too independent and conquer my weaknesses on my own and don't lean on my savior and others for help, part of my pride that I keep holding onto I guess.

Sorry but it is more than just praying that needs to be done here. Bruce says so right here.

A perfectly stated and marvelously comprehensive formula that shows us what we must do to see the Lord is given us in these words: "Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am." (D&C 93:1.) Who made the promise? The Lord Jesus Christ. To whom is it given? To every living soul. What must we do to see his face? Five specifics are named: (1) Forsake our sins, for no unclean or impure person, no sinful man, can abide in his presence. (2) Come unto him; accept him as our Savior; receive his gospel, as it has been restored in our day. (3) Call on his name in mighty prayer as did the brother of Jared. (4) Obey his voice; do what he directs; put first in our lives the things of his kingdom; close our ears to the evil voices of the world. (5) Keep the commandments; endure in righteousness; be true to the faith. Those who do these things, being pure in heart, shall see God.

All these conditions must be met. We are talking about seeing the face of the Lord here. We could pray a million times for this blessing but until we meet all five conditions this will not happen. Notice that 1, 4 and 5 is what keeps most people from having this blessing. As noted above several times, the Lord will prove us first. There is no getting around this. We are here to be proved and thoroughly. JS went through 5 months on imprisonment in bitter cold eating off the left overs of his guards.

After his prayer for relief the savior reminded him that he had not suffered as much as Job had and also reminded him that was he great than the Savior who suffered more than a man can suffer except it be unto death. The savior told JS, thy suffering will be for they good. Have we suffered like JS has? Someone at the ripe old age of 20 getting this done to them would be very rare indeed. How can the Lord prove a 19 year old in all things, and all temptations when a 19 year old has not had the mortal experience to even be tried in all things. Even David who only with this faith in God did defeat Goliath yet even he fell later on in life. It would not be wise to think you have been C&E and had a feeling that you think was from the HG. This only comes with much experience and mostly to those of middle age or older due to the nature of man and his carnal nature. Thus, hearing one so young say my C&E is here makes one disbelieve based on scripture and the teaching of the prophets.

Let me give one example, I know of one person from personal experience and a lifetime of knowing this person, and in my mind this person has obtained Eternal life. I say that because if this person did not obtain Eternal life then no one of earth would ever receive Eternal life. They lived their life and followed all 5 conditions above as no one I have every known done. I marveled at the selflessness in which this person served others that I myself would shun and am in need of repentance of. Yet, serve others this person did in a most joyful fashion as well. When I shun to server those I don't naturally like I always think of this person and it helps me get into a better loving frame of mind. So this person did not have their C&E made known to them or I would of known about it. I was there during their last days and not one word about it. Yet, I know and feel some degree that the HG confirm it that this person has indeed will receive it. The C&E does not have to be made know to you during this life. My main point is that it really is only received after much tribulation and sacrifice. I don't know of any 19 year old who I would say has had much tribulation and sacrifice to merit this award.

Not saying that it can not happen but Bruce and Joseph and many other have taught this and are quite clear on the conditions that this may happen to someone. Only by obeying the law will a blessing be awarded. D&C. The blessing of C&EMS for most saints 90% of them comes only after a lifetime of service.

I think we all need to remember that there are certain ways of thinking of CEMS that may help us to understand it better, but ultimately, it CANNOT be reduced to "five comprehensive" simple steps. The reality of it, the very nature, requires it to be very difficult. It's easy to say "Go pray to God with an open heart and do exactly what He asks you." It is harder to get your heart to the point at which you can honestly pray that prayer. The path of discipleship is supposed to be hard, it is supposed to hurt at times, it is supposed to lead you through the valley of death. To try to dumb it down is not helpful, for it gives us the wrong impression of what it requires. I understand what you are saying Amonhi, but I think some of us on the forum just need to remember that the nature of the event isn't a simple process, even though simplifying it may help that process seem doable. If CEMS becomes just a checklist of three or five things, you will probably get to the point where you have them all checked off but still haven't had the experience. Sacrifice brings for the blessings of heaven. Bruce can't tell you how to obtain it. While Joseph is the most credible latter-day source of this doctrine, he too cannot tell you how to obtain it. The path is individual and must be taught to us by God.

Amonhi wrote:On a side note, I am presently running out of time here, so I will not be able to stay much longer. I am sure I will be back when I can... When I have more time.

But I want to reiterate that you don't need me. I am only another symbol pointing my finger to heaven. ....

Amonhi. I don't think anyone on this forum has had as much effect as you have in such a short period of time on everyone here. You have effected my family of 9 most profoundly. On the points you raise, you have validated some long standing beliefs I have held -- some for 30 years, some for just a few weeks. Your appearance and declarations have answered many questions for me and my family. About 2 weeks ago, "it" was looking very bleak. I won't go into details, but let me just say that I announced to the family that more information was required, that we would not able to stay or to go until we received more information -- more knowledge. We were effectively at a standstill. Since then and within literally hours, you signed in, and while you have not answered some of the questions we have had, you have instead shown them to be irrelevant in light of what you have brought to us here. In addition to answering some questions, you have provide a new impetus to do what is right and have encouraged me and I believe us all to be more like little children in the way we deal with one another, and with God. Your arrival here I believe is no accident, and is further evidence that God is very active in the lives of all his children. It is also quite clear that some major wheels have been set in motion, and great changes are coming in many ways, first for the preservation of the true saints temporally and spiritually, then afterward the tribulation, but not yet.

To the rest of the forum: should I have offended any of you in any way personally (and I know that I have), or been less than gracious in my words to you or in general, please accept my sincere apologies. I'm looking forward to more posts on this forum, giving and taking, that will be as productive and faith promoting as this last week has been.

Amonhi: thank you, and God bless.

Amonhi. I don't think anyone on this forum has had as much effect as you have in such a short period of time on everyone here. You have effected my family of 9 most profoundly. On the points you raise, you have validated some long standing beliefs I have held -- some for 30 years, some for just a few weeks. Your appearance and declarations have answered many questions for me and my family. About 2 weeks ago, "it" was looking very bleak. I won't go into details, but let me just say that I announced to the family that more information was required, that we would not able to stay or to go until we received more information -- more knowledge. We were effectively at a standstill. Since then and within literally hours, you signed in, and while you have not answered some of the questions we have had, you have instead shown them to be irrelevant in light of what you have brought to us here. In addition to answering some questions, you have provide a new impetus to do what is right and have encouraged me and I believe us all to be more like little children in the way we deal with one another, and with God. Your arrival here I believe is no accident, and is further evidence that God is very active in the lives of all his children. It is also quite clear that some major wheels have been set in motion, and great changes are coming in many ways, first for the preservation of the true saints temporally and spiritually, then afterward the tribulation, but not yet.
To the rest of the forum: should I have offended any of you in any way personally (and I know that I have), or been less than gracious in my words to you or in general, please accept my sincere apologies. I'm looking forward to more posts on this forum, giving and taking, that will be as productive and faith promoting as this last week has been.

Amonhi: thank you, and God bless.

iThink - thank you for your graciousness...and accept my apologies for any combativeness I have shown towards you...

gr8ideas,
When I first read that footnote, it seemed to me that the compilers of the book were trying to downplay what Joseph was actually saying. I can't remember my exact thoughts and feelings, but I, personally, would read what Joseph said without any of the interpolations of the authors (I did not find their interpretations to be helpful in any of the footnotes where they gave them - other footnotes were helpful).

thebestsun, after reading much of what John Pontius has to say, it seems to me that the "perfect obedience" is perfect obedience to what the Lord tells you, directly, to do - reaching a point of perfect obedience to everything the Spirit tells your heart and mind to do, not perfect obedience to every rule and regulation in the church. If the Spirit is your constant guide, you will find yourself obeying more perfectly than you ever thought possible.

It seems to me that this world teaches us, "Seek, but do not find." Be perfect, but you can't. Obey it all, but you can't. Alone, we can't, but if we give our whole souls to God, He can change us and improve us. Soon, the idea of, "Dang, I'll never be perfect!" won't even be in our minds, let alone in our vocabulary. Our minds will be focused elsewhere.

Most definitely, Cylon. It takes action, and it takes time.

chasetafer0707 wrote: The reality of it, the very nature, requires it to be very difficult. It's easy to say "Go pray to God with an open heart and do exactly what He asks you." It is harder to get your heart to the point at which you can honestly pray that prayer. The path of discipleship is supposed to be hard, it is supposed to hurt at times, it is supposed to lead you through the valley of death. To try to dumb it down is not helpful, for it gives us the wrong impression of what it requires . . . Bruce can't tell you how to obtain it. While Joseph is the most credible latter-day source of this doctrine, he too cannot tell you how to obtain it. The path is individual and must be taught to us by God.

Exactly. It takes the equivalent of blood, sweat, and tears. It is a serious commitment to the Lord that brings this promise.

7cylon7 wrote: Let me give one example, I know of one person from personal experience and a lifetime of knowing this person, and in my mind this person has obtained Eternal life. I say that because if this person did not obtain Eternal life then no one of earth would ever receive Eternal life. They lived their life and followed all 5 conditions above as no one I have every known done. I marveled at the selflessness in which this person served others that I myself would shun and am in need of repentance of. Yet, serve others this person did in a most joyful fashion as well. When I shun to server those I don't naturally like I always think of this person and it helps me get into a better loving frame of mind. So this person did not have their C&E made known to them or I would of known about it. I was there during their last days and not one word about it. Yet, I know and feel some degree that the HG confirm it that this person has indeed will receive it. The C&E does not have to be made know to you during this life. My main point is that it really is only received after much tribulation and sacrifice. I don't know of any 19 year old who I would say has had much tribulation and sacrifice to merit this award.

Not saying that it can not happen but Bruce and Joseph and many other have taught this and are quite clear on the conditions that this may happen to someone. Only by obeying the law will a blessing be awarded. D&C. The blessing of C&EMS for most saints 90% of them comes only after a lifetime of service.

I think big stumbling block when discussing this topic is we use terms defined in different ways.

I, personally, like the term "more sure word of prophecy" because I feel it better describes what happens. To my mind a "Calling and Election Made Sure" is the same as the "More Sure Word of Prophecy" and means that the Lord has testified or prophesied that you will have eternal life. Since God cannot lie, when you have heard this promise you can rest assured that despite your current failings you will continue on the path until you are perfected.

I think this is how Amonhi is using the term. Used this way, it isn't surprising that a young person could receive this blessing. Since God has foreknowledge He can testify about our status at any point in our lives. In many cases, God is waiting for us to ask for blessings that we already qualify for, but which we haven't asked for yet. Ask and ye shall receive. So a young man may receive the Testimony of Jesus that he will be saved, and yet have many years left of teachings and trials to sanctify himself to receive the Savoir.

In my mind, the "Second Comforter" is the literal visitation of Jesus Christ and is different than the More Sure Word of Prophecy. I think sometimes people use the term "Calling and Election Made Sure" to refer to this... or even to receiving the fullness of priesthood/exaltation.

Yes its my understanding that the second comforter and calling and election are two separate events. And either one can happen before the other. The Lord determines the Order. Also, Iv'e hear some people refer to a second anointing as being the second comforter but my understanding of this is that just because you have met with the Lord it doesn't mean you have received that but you do have to have the Lord present to receive it. This is something people also confuse with a ceremony the president of the church and the apostles can invite you to attend in the holy of hollies. But from what I have read during those ceremonies the Lord is not present at least visibly by anyone. The Prophet anoints you instead of the Lord.

I have really enjoyed this thread. I believe that Amonhi's point is to open up our thinking to our own potential-that we can each receive our CE and the Second Comforter. This is by far the biggest hurdle to any important accomplishment, whether physical or spiritual-faith that we can receive it. I suppose that I must cut to the quick and say that I am writing to be another witness to that fact, from personal experience also. I have come to understand that one of the great messages/themes of the Book of Mormon is to challenge us to receive our CE and the Second Comforter and to testify that we CAN receive it. I know that CE and Second Comforter are not the same, but for the purpose of illustrating my point, please allow me to use them synonymously as they are so closely related and intertwined in the BoM.

Nephi received it at a very young age and so did his brother Jacob:
2 Nephi 11:" 2 And now I, Nephi, write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen him.

3 And my brother, Jacob, also has seen him as I have seen him; wherefore, I will send their words forth unto my children to prove unto them that my words are true. Wherefore, by the words of three, God hath said, I will establish my word. Nevertheless, God sendeth more witnesses, and he proveth all his words."

As expressed in an earlier post, President Romney pointed out that Enos, Jacob's son received it. It turns out that the book of Enos is a testimony of how a prophet's son received his CE.

Alma the elder received his CE:
Mosiah 26: " 20 Thou art my servant; and I covenant with thee that thou shalt have eternal life; and thou shalt serve me and go forth in my name, and shalt gather together my sheep."

As a point of conjecture, I believe that Alma the younger received his CE when the angel appeared unto him the second time in Alma 8:15
" 15 Blessed art thou, Alma; therefore, lift up thy head and rejoice, for thou hast great cause to rejoice; for thou hast been faithful in keeping the commandments of God from the time which thou receivedst thy first message from him. Behold, I am he that delivered it unto you."

Likewise a conjecture that Nephi, the son of Helaman, received his CE when God gave him the sealing power in Helaman 10:5:
" 5 And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will."

Mormon saw the Savior when he was only fifteen:
Mormon 1: "15. And I, being fifteen years of age and being somewhat of a sober mind, therefore I was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus."

Of course, the classic story of the Brother of Jared when he receives the Second Comforter is found in Ether 3. I only include Moroni's summary of the incident:
"19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.

20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him."

Moroni goes on to prophecy concerning the day when the Book of Ether should be brought forth to us. I take this as a personal challenge from the Lord through Moroni, in the Book of Ether: Ether 4: 7-19. I will only quote Ether 4:7 to be as brief as possible:
" 7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are."

So we are to exercise faith and strive to receive the same revelations that the Brother of Jared received, which assuredly includes receiving the Second Comforter.

Emer, a Jaredite king saw the Savior in his day:
Ether 9: " 22 And after he had anointed Coriantum to reign in his stead he lived four years, and he saw peace in the land; yea, and he even saw the Son of Righteousness, and did rejoice and glory in his day; and he died in peace."

In Ether 12, Moroni testifies that many saw Christ before he came in the flesh:
" 19 And there were many whose faith was so exceedingly strong, even before Christ came, who could not be kept from within the veil, but truly saw with their eyes the things which they had beheld with an eye of faith, and they were glad."

Moroni was one who practiced what he preached:
Ether 12: " 38 And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the Gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood.

39 And then shall ye know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in mine own language, concerning these things;"

So my point is that the Book of Mormon is all about how to receive one’s CE and the Second Comforter. This is why the prophets and apostles today preach until they’re blue in the face that we must study the scriptures-especially the Book of Mormon; because it will teach us how to come unto Christ [Second Comforter]. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the purpose of bringing all men unto Christ [receive the Second Comforter]. The temple endowment shows the steps we must take to penetrate the veil and enter into the presence of Christ [Second Comforter]. The biggest hurdle to receiving this blessing is our own unbelief [aka lack of faith]. So I join in with others to testify that we are "they" to whom the Book of Mormon was written and it admonishes us to exercise our faith to receive our CE and the Second Comforter so that we can dwell in his presence now and be prepared for his coming. I hope that we can all have the faith to "inquire of the Lord" concerning these things and to not write ourselves off for some future ambiguous date yet to be determined. Age and experience were not a factor in the lives of Nephi, Jacob, and Mormon. But faith was the determinant. So please listen to the Spirit and don't cave to your natural fears. The Lord will come to a people prepared to dwell in his presence-why not each of us? As someone mentioned in an earlier post, there are many who have received these blessings in our day, and there will be many, many more, why not you and I?

As a church and among groups of people who become genuinely interested in the topics of second comforter and C&EMS it is inevitable that there will be some who feign that this has happened to them when it in fact hasn't. There will be an understanding of its necessity and a streamlining and redefinition of what it is based upon the weaknesses of men. This is a pattern used by Satan to marginalized sacred things. It is the reason we dont understand our own history or doctrine. Remember, it will always require sacrifice and faith born of confidence in that sacrifice. I'm not referring to amonhi. In fact I feel the spirit in much of what he has said, but as a result of some of the posts I've read. We need to be careful not to be prideful and not to sell ourselves short because of what we have learned from men.

I hope you don't mistake my enthusiasm for pride. It's just that all my adult life, over decades, I thought like many others, that in order to receive CE, I had to go thru an Abrahamic trial. I read the experiences of Abraham being sacrificed to pagan gods, or Isaac allowing himself to be sacrificed, or Job remaining faithful in spite of the most unthinkable trial in which his own wife counseled him to "curse God and die." I reasoned that only after these horrific trials did they receive their CE. After going thru that trial that I had been expecting and learning that I would be obedient no matter what, I perceived that the trial was for my own benefit-to know for myself that I would be faithful. I perceived that God already knew who I was and how faithful I was. Then I met others who had not been so tried and who had received CE. I have often wondered if I couldn't have received my CE many years before if I had considered that it was a possibility. Then, as I studied the BoM further, I came to understand that perhaps we don't have to be sorely tried before receiving this blessing. Perhaps we can be like Mormon, who saw the Savior at age 15; or Nephi and Jacob who received it while still in their youth... Perhaps, as we draw closer to the Second Coming and enter the Millenium, we will find that this blessing is handed down from parents to children, just as a testimony of the gospel is done now. My previous post was meant to encourage others to not get caught in the trap that I was in of thinking they have to go thru a major trial to receive CE. You will still have all the trials you can handle for the rest of your life. But perhaps it is as simple as what Amonhi said to do: pray about it and see what the Lord tells you. My post was to illustrate that a true seeker can find in the BoM a handbook, a guidebook, with graphic illustrations of how we can receive our CE and the Second Comforter.
As I stated before, the biggest hurdle is to allow oneself to believe that he/she can receive CE. Opening one's eyes to this possibility is key. Most people I know do not even consider this as conceivable for themselves, perhaps for an apostle, but not for a "normal member" of the Church.

Amonhi wrote:I would like to bring this down to earth and show you what I learned after receiving the promise for myself. Kind of a hindsight view of what really matters.

I will submit myself to be crucified as it were, for the benefit of those who who might gain the blessing for themselves through my sacrifice. (Nothing eternally lost, just pearls before swine, lol)

Just like I think that it is very unfortunate and improper for Denver Snuffer to have revealed the fact that his calling and election was made sure, and I believe that it was improper for you to do so as well. I don't think there is ever a good reason to do so, and I think that, while it may well be true that you have had it, and while there may not be any eternal consequence for doing so, I think that it is unfortunate that you would tell other people about it. I think that the Lord expects us to keep it secret, not just sacred. I think that the Lord is displeased by the revealing of secrets like this. Just one man's opinion.

Amonhi wrote:I recommend starting a thread in the Heavenly Group area where you can openly discuss your experiences and offer encouragement to each other, (if it isn't already created). I know via PM that some here have already received the promise for themselves.

I would actually recommend to the contrary, that you NOT share your calling and election and second comforter experiences with each other. I would certainly share the sentiment that you ought to seek it out, but I firmly feel that these things should be kept to one's self.

We were later ordained to bring as many as will come to the Church of the Firstborn. This is our current calling. And the greatest arrow in my quiver is my own knowledge, testimony and experience. It would be a fools errand to not use my own witness, testimony and experience.

I expect some will mock, some will be confused and some will be touched by the spirit and hear the call for themselves. I surrender myself and my experiences as an offering for the benefit of those who will hear the spirit and answer the call.

Forgive my recalcitrance, but I have serious doubts that you have received such a call. I simply don't believe you, at all. I don't feel the Holy Ghost when I read your words, and I simply believe this claim is untrue. You are simply out of line in my opinion, very out of line. That's just one man's opinion. I have no evidence, but I question with the utmost skepticism when someone gets on forums like this and proclaims such things. I am not mocking you by any means, but I have a serious issue with your making these claims, especially because of the people on this forum that might be among the more gullible individuals among us. If you set yourself up for a light, watch out, because it is unlikely that you are giving off light. Jesus Christ or anyone from the church of the firstborn would not give people like you a call, just like he would not give Denver Snuffer a special commission to write books and find fault with the Lord's anointed. I would ask you to please refrain from seeking to beguile the more gullible people here, because there are others like me that have seen many like you appear over and over again, and we weren't born yesterday.

Ed Goble

Helaman wrote:

We were later ordained to bring as many as will come to the Church of the Firstborn. This is our current calling. And the greatest arrow in my quiver is my own knowledge, testimony and experience. It would be a fools errand to not use my own witness, testimony and experience.

I expect some will mock, some will be confused and some will be touched by the spirit and hear the call for themselves. I surrender myself and my experiences as an offering for the benefit of those who will hear the spirit and answer the call.

Forgive my recalcitrance, but I have serious doubts that you have received such a call. I simply don't believe you, at all. I don't feel the Holy Ghost when I read your words, and I simply believe this claim is untrue. You are simply out of line in my opinion, very out of line. That's just one man's opinion. I have no evidence, but I question with the utmost skepticism when someone gets on forums like this and proclaims such things. I am not mocking you by any means, but I have a serious issue with your making these claims, especially because of the people on this forum that might be among the more gullible individuals among us. If you set yourself up for a light, watch out, because it is unlikely that you are giving off light. Jesus Christ or anyone from the church of the firstborn would not give people like you a call, just like he would not give Denver Snuffer a special commission to write books and find fault with the Lord's anointed. I would ask you to please refrain from seeking to beguile the more gullible people here, because there are others like me that have seen many like you appear over and over again, and we weren't born yesterday.

Ed Goble

Ed:

You are, of course, completely correct here. The thing that blows me away is not that someone would do this but that so many supposed active members of The Church are buying it.

Amonhi wrote:

durangout wrote:Alma 30...

There are so many great points in those scriptures which you quoted. However, I understand that you have specific concerns, questions and thoughts. If you could perhaps make dots points of the ones you wish to focus on, then we can discuss each point in a useful and effective way.

Sorry, I just don't see how could I be any more plain that what was said in that chapter. it was very clear.

Lee, Amonhi said he was going to pray for another witness to come on this site, as a second witness to what he said. I was wondering if you, by any chance, are that witness? You actually seem more . . . something. More articulate, perhaps.

I'm not as cynical as Helaman, but I do wonder how bona fide all of this is. The worst part of groups like this is that we cannot look at each other and read each others' countenances/aura's/light/etc. It is very difficult to tell, in print, what a person's motives are.

Still, if it fits with scripture, it could be considered. I'm with Joseph Smith when it comes to accepting truth from whatever corner it may come from. God works in ways we think He won't. That's why people throughout history have rejected true prophets much of the time.

Doctrine & Covenants 88
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

The thing that blows me away is not that someone would do this but that so many supposed active members of The Church are buying it.

Of course, we can't judge just how active any of us are seeing that we are pretty much anonymous. We don't even have the wonderful opportunity of 'inspecting' each other's shopping carts when bumping into one another at the grocery store.

It's probably human nature to scramble for a 'sure thing'. Go for it!

I'm just kind of unclear on how having one's calling & ellection made sure will change how one lives out the rest of mortality.

I guess I'm going to go with the 'earth's' example above. It seems pretty solid, to me, AND, the outcome is already operative.

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

A Random Phrase wrote:Lee, Amonhi said he was going to pray for another witness to come on this site, as a second witness to what he said. I was wondering if you, by any chance, are that witness? You actually seem more . . . something. More articulate, perhaps.

I'm not as cynical as Helaman, but I do wonder how bona fide all of this is. The worst part of groups like this is that we cannot look at each other and read each others' countenances/aura's/light/etc. It is very difficult to tell, in print, what a person's motives are.

Still, if it fits with scripture, it could be considered. I'm with Joseph Smith when it comes to accepting truth from whatever corner it may come from. God works in ways we think He won't. That's why people throughout history have rejected true prophets much of the time.

You make a very good point about not being able to see a persons face, which means we have to analyze the text and look at the big picture. We need to consider the question "where will it lead?"

Here are some of the facts that I feel are pertinent:
1. Amonhi does not want anyone to know who he really is.
2. His message includes more than coming into the church of the Firstborn.
3. There isn't anything in the scriptures that tells us, specifically, how the 144,000 will go about doing their work.
4. Seeking after "spiritual ordinances", instead of physical ordinances, serves no purpose, and they are not part of the records of the church.
5. If someone is not careful, they can answer their own prayers. If that prayer was regarding C&C, it could prove to be a spiritual disaster. For those who are in tune with the Spirit, and cannot be deceived, this approach is fine, otherwise, waiting on the Lord might be wiser.
6. Were a young couple to raise their children on spiritual ordinances, they would grow up outside the church.

durangout wrote: Ed:

You are, of course, completely correct here. The thing that blows me away is not that someone would do this but that so many supposed active members of The Church are buying it.

No doubt!

A Random Phrase wrote:Lee, Amonhi said he was going to pray for another witness to come on this site, as a second witness to what he said. I was wondering if you, by any chance, are that witness? You actually seem more . . . something. More articulate, perhaps.

I'm not as cynical as Helaman, but I do wonder how bona fide all of this is. The worst part of groups like this is that we cannot look at each other and read each others' countenances/aura's/light/etc. It is very difficult to tell, in print, what a person's motives are.

Still, if it fits with scripture, it could be considered. I'm with Joseph Smith when it comes to accepting truth from whatever corner it may come from. God works in ways we think He won't. That's why people throughout history have rejected true prophets much of the time.

So, I take it then, you would have been with my former home teaching companion when I lived in Magna, UT, who apostatized. And was excommunicated because I finally brought it to his bishop's attention when I sent him a letter that Dalton was secretly gathering followers over the internet.

Terrill Dalton, who had a "Second Comforter" experience allegedly, formed the "Church of the Firstborn and the General Assembly of Heaven," and now is going to prison for raping his daughter, telling her that she would be "blessed" for sleeping with him and his second in command, following their special doctrine of "giving seed." I watched the formation of that Church. I was at the foundation of it, when it was a doctrinal study thing with Dalton, before it was a Church, before I realized what was happening and rejected Dalton early on, when the Holy Ghost told me he was a fraud.

You say that I'm cynical. Wrong. I'm just awake to the false messengers that are among you, and have enough skepticism to not be led astray by them, and I call them on it when I see it. I thought being awake to the New World Order was what so many of you guys here on this forum pride yourselves on. At least you are awake to the New World Order. But some of you are asleep as to the deceivers among you that are just like Dalton, and just like James Strang. You all have enough skepticism, seemingly to not be taken in by Rockafeller because you know he is a fraud, but you are willing to be taken in by false messengers that offer you special knowledge and special blessings, who claim special authority and special calls. Come on. Think.

Ed Goble

Gideon wrote: 4. Seeking after "spiritual ordinances", instead of physical ordinances, serves no purpose, and they are not part of the records of the church.

6. Were a young couple to raise their children on spiritual ordinances, they would grow up outside the church.

These two points in particular struck me as not inline with the Book of Mormon. Despite spiritual blessings being received by people, the Book of Mormon clearly taught that it was expedient to follow the law. Christ, who is our example, followed the law and was baptized and received other ordinances.

I'm just kind of unclear on how having one's calling & ellection made sure will change how one lives out the rest of mortality.

I guess I'm going to go with the 'earth's' example above. It seems pretty solid, to me, AND, the outcome is already operative.

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

You are right. It doesn't fundamentally change anything. It is entirely optional. And you could just wait till death. The real question is, why would you reject a blessing that is offered you? However, before you do get it, you ought to be careful that you can discern it for what it is first, and not be led astray by the types of people that claim special this that or the other.

I don't know Amonhi is fraud or not but he doesn't seem to be trying to gather a following like the the person Helaman described. Amonhi has asked us to pray. Pretty good advice in my book. I don't think Amonhi is advocating we do away with with physical ordinances. I think he's saying God can do whatever he wants and the spirt has to ratify any physical ordinance.

If he starts saying otherwise, I will ignore him.

I don't think it is a bad thing to share a C&E with us. The BoM is full of examples of people sharing this. There are also others, after the modern restoration.

If we can't rely on prayer and the guidance of the spirit, we are all lost, no matter how guilible or cautious we may be. Prayer and the spirit is what brought most of us to the church. Is anybody suggesting we can't trust our prayers in this matter?

Nephi has suggested we seek an audience with our Savior.

Some anti-Mormon sites warn people against praying about the church and how they will be deceived by a false spirit.

Helaman wrote:

Amonhi wrote:I recommend starting a thread in the Heavenly Group area where you can openly discuss your experiences and offer encouragement to each other, (if it isn't already created). I know via PM that some here have already received the promise for themselves.

I would actually recommend to the contrary, that you NOT share your calling and election and second comforter experiences with each other. I would certainly share the sentiment that you ought to seek it out, but I firmly feel that these things should be kept to one's self.

Something I feel strongly about as well... I know Joseph Smith said this people are not very good at keeping secrets, and Brigham Young & John Taylor admonished us to prove the Lord can trust us with sacred things by not revealing them...and pres. Marion G. Romney said that "this people would have more sacred experiences if they wouldn't talk about the ones they already have"