The Fastest Way to Make Your Calling and Election Sure

[reese]

There are questions, though. Decades ago, I had an experience where I was repenting, and one night I had the most clear and distinct dream of meeting and embracing the Savior, and Him saying "Thy sins are forgiven." I was on my knees, embracing Him, and the sense of both joy and pure love there are not words to do it justice. The memory of that has remained with me throughout my life.

Wow! Thank you sooo much for sharing! It is difficult to describe to someone else the feeling of deep unconditional love and acceptance one feels in his presence. It changes you. Thank you for sharing this very special experience, I am truly honored to have heard it.

I guess I expected something a little more literal and - I hate to say it, but "profound". But maybe I am just one of those people that are making it harder than it is.

most do. We get so used to elaborate ordinances that we expect the greatest ones to be even bigger than the others. It is in it's simplicity a glorious experience.

If you wouldn't mind, I would like to use you as a second witness here to dispel a theory that is taught around the church. Some have said that the most powerful witness and experience you can have comes from the Holy Ghost. Having experienced the witness of the Holy Ghost and also been in the presence of Christ myself, I know for certain that all experiences with the Holy Ghost, and even angels, as wonderful as they have been, are like the light of stars when compared with the experience of meeting the Savior which is more akin to the Sun at noon day. Would you agree?

Amonhi, I would have to agree here. I have not been in the presense of the Savior YET, although it is the thing I hope for more than anything else. I had a dream a long time ago, probably 23-25 years ago. I had to have been only 13 or 14 years old. I dreamed that I saw the Savior sitting on a throne of some sort, kindof "floating" in space. It was only him. I did not touch him or even hear him. But I felt his love, and to this day I still remember what it felt like. I have felt the power of the holy ghost very strongly a handfull of times but nothing I have ever experienced in my life can equal the feeling I got from this dream.

[Amonhi]

Actually, I have been down this road a ways. No fear, no doubt, but my experience has been very different than what is recorded here. It feels unhealthy to me. I agree with Mark. I will continue on my path and not open myself up to influences that will deter me from my journey. God has spoken to me in ways unmistakeable, and they do not square with what I am seeing. I would say what has been shared is similar to scripture, not "constant", and certainly not "consistent".

Your experience is very valuable. Could you elaborate? (Or perhaps you have been forbin to discuss?)
I have not been forbidden to discuss. And I do not mean to take away from the incredible experience you have had. Just to point out that it as with ANY ordinance, must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise to have "efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead".

The gift of the Holy Ghost can be given by the laying on of hands and commanding, "I say unto you, RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST!" Not much symbolism there to trip on. It just says, receive it already! In a similar manor you might not have accepted it another way, but it doesn't mean the Gift of the Holy Ghost can't be received without the laying on of hands. The physical points to the spiritual but the spiritual IS the point and can be received without the physical. If it were not so, then all of the references in conference, scripture etc. would be wrong.

Here is another example of the Prophet declaring the same blessing on a group of people who were assembled,

Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you who have assembled yourselves together to receive his will concerning you:

Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world.

Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.

This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;

Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son—

Do you think he was wrong?

Would loved to have showed up to that meeting, am I right!?! But then again, if you were there, unless the the Holy Spirit of promise sealed it, it is of no effect in this life or the next. Hence the reason for understanding physical vs. Spiritual ordinances. This does not mean that a person cannot receive the spiritual at the time of the physical. Especially when it is so direct and specific, Like the receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

We can receive all the Blessings of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, the Sealing power to bind & loose, curse & bless, power over life and death, Godhood and every other blessing God has for us directly from God, with or without a physical symbol/ordinance.

Do you see what I am saying?

[Amonhi]

...Actually, I have been down this road a ways...

Here is another thought more on the urked side of things. The third question is all about what do I need to be to have the blessing?
You are saying that there is nothing A PERSON can do or become and no point in asking God because worthy persons are damned in their progression until another mortal judges them and recommends them to be considered for further blessing. God can and does act for himself. He hasn't given away his authority to act for himself to the point that He can't do his own work.

God spoke and the world was created. How much easier would it be for God to speak and have a name written in the Book of Life, or to speak and give any blessing he desires including the Sealing power like he did with Nephi, (Hel. 10)

Just some things to consider...

[Amonhi]

Is it possible that we are denying these things from ourselves because we just won't believe it because of the easiness of the way?

We tend to believe the spirit when it tells us the Book of Mormon is true or some other doctrine, why not on this one? Why not get a witness of your own standing before God? If you can't trust the same spirit that got you into the church, then we have more to be concerned about than this simple doctrine... (Right Rand?) - Sorry to single you out dude. I know where your coming from and am just trying to calm the water...

Did the Lord really let the children of Israel die because they would not just look up at a staff and serpent? That to me is almost unbelievable. Just look at something and be healed. And yet some refused to do it. It was just too simple.

Well said, excellent points...

[LukeAir2008]

To have your Calling and Election made sure is to receive the Second Comforter - to see the face of Christ - and to be told that you will inherit Eternal Life.

The Comforter is the Gift of the Holy Ghost which all members are entitied to receive after baptism into the Church of Jesus Christ.

Two very different things.

Amonhi, have you seen the face of Jesus Christ and did he tell you that you will inherit Eternal Life?

[Amonhi]

To have your Calling and Election made sure is to receive the Second Comforter - to see the face of Christ - and to be told that you will inherit Eternal Life.

The Comforter is the Gift of the Holy Ghost which all members are entitied to receive after baptism into the Church of Jesus Christ.

Two very different things.

Amonhi, have you seen the face of Jesus Christ and did he tell you that you will inherit Eternal Life?

Yes. But it was 2 months after I received the promise. I balled in his arms like a baby. He healed me. One of the many precious experiences of my life.

Do you think that Romney was wrong and that Heber C. Kimball didn't receive the promise because it didn't come the way you expected it? (He didn't see the Savior, he said, "Spirit said unto me".) Is the spirit going around lying and deceiving good honest people like Kimball and President Romney?

Do you think the Spirit can lie? Or can't be trusted? How can people believe it as an investigator to the church but later, after following it be told that it is faulty. I don't think investigators have any real experience with the spirit that somehow makes it more reliable than those who supposedly have been given the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Gideon]

I had an interesting discussion on the toopic of praying about ones c&e status, and I was reminded of two people where this would be appropriate (in my judgement). The first had been through hell and remained faithful, and was then told by a bishop that he/she was going to the Celestial Kingdom and to pray until he/she had these feelings.

The second was told in a patriarchal blessing that he/she was sealed up unto eternal life. Since patriarchs are instructed to not make statements like this, and the person was a recent convert, it raised a question in the idividuals mind.

The pattern we see in the scriptures, and in the lives of more recent individuals in church history, demonstrate that the Lord, through the voice of the Spirit, tells the the person they are sealed up to eternal life (personal visits come later). In these two cases, something else took place, but both had priesthood authority figures involved. One with keys, and one who speaks for the Lord in giving official blessings.

In both cases, taking the question to the Lord is imperative (and both probably will as a result of this discussion). However, I think that a Sacrament talk advocating this approach could result in a spiritual Pandora's box being opened. Why? Because so many are still in need of milk, and something like this could make them an easy prey for the adversary. Just my opinion.

[tmac]

I had an interesting discussion on the toopic of praying about ones c&e status, and I was reminded of two people where this would be appropriate (in my judgement). The first had been through hell and remained faithful, and was then told by a bishop that he/she was going to the Celestial Kingdom and to pray until he/she had these feelings.

The second was told in a patriarchal blessing that he/she was sealed up unto eternal life. Since patriarchs are instructed to not make statements like this, and the person was a recent convert, it raised a question in the idividuals mind.

The pattern we see in the scriptures, and in the lives of more recent individuals in church history, demonstrate that the Lord, through the voice of the Spirit, tells the the person they are sealed up to eternal life (personal visits come later). In these two cases, something else took place, but both had priesthood authority figures involved. One with keys, and one who speaks for the Lord in giving official blessings.

Again, I'm no expert, but from what little bit I do understand and know, I have serious reservations about these examples. According to my understanding, C&E, like BF&HG, the Second Comforter, and having one's marriage sealed by the holy spirit of promise are all spiritual blessings -- bestowed by Jesus Christ himself, the Holy Ghost, or heavenly messengers -- not by mortal beings. When it comes to those sorts of things, there is only one source that I would trust or accept and it is not a mortal being -- regardless of their priesthood office. In fact, that is one of the very things that distinguishes those spiritual ordinances from the physical ordinances performed by mortal priesthood bearers. In those cases, I have no reason to see why God would use mortal messengers to deliver such messages and perform such ordinances -- to do so, leaving questions and doubts in the recipients mind, essentially eliminates all distinction between such spiritual ordinances and the lower physical ordinances.

[Gideon]

I had an interesting discussion on the toopic of praying about ones c&e status, and I was reminded of two people where this would be appropriate (in my judgement). The first had been through hell and remained faithful, and was then told by a bishop that he/she was going to the Celestial Kingdom and to pray until he/she had these feelings.

The second was told in a patriarchal blessing that he/she was sealed up unto eternal life. Since patriarchs are instructed to not make statements like this, and the person was a recent convert, it raised a question in the idividuals mind.

The pattern we see in the scriptures, and in the lives of more recent individuals in church history, demonstrate that the Lord, through the voice of the Spirit, tells the the person they are sealed up to eternal life (personal visits come later). In these two cases, something else took place, but both had priesthood authority figures involved. One with keys, and one who speaks for the Lord in giving official blessings.

Again, I'm no expert, but from what little bit I do understand and know, I have serious reservations about these examples. According to my understanding, C&E, like BF&HG, the Second Comforter, and having one's marriage sealed by the holy spirit of promise are all spiritual blessings -- bestowed by Jesus Christ himself, the Holy Ghost, or heavenly messengers -- not by mortal beings. When it comes to those sorts of things, there is only one source that I would trust or accept and it is not a mortal being -- regardless of their priesthood office. In fact, that is one of the very things that distinguishes those spiritual ordinances from the physical ordinances performed by mortal priesthood bearers. In those cases, I have no reason to see why God would use mortal messengers to deliver such messages and perform such ordinances -- to do so, leaving questions and doubts in the recipients mind, essentially eliminates all distinction between such spiritual ordinances and the lower physical ordinances.

Christ doesn't appear when ones calling and election is made sure, that comes after, according to Joseph Smith. Almost every example I am aware of involves the Lord, through the Holy Ghost, testifying that the person is sealed up to eternal life. One that doesn't fit, is the three young men who carried the saints of the handcart companies through the frozen river. Brigham Young stated that they all had the c&e based on that one act.

In the first example the person may have been in too much pain to hear the voice of the Spirit.

What is in writing on this subject? Is there anything authoritative which clearly states every possible way that the Lord migth make this known? My feelings have been that if a person has progressed that far, then they are among those who can hear the voice of the Lord directly, and there is no middle man needed. But that is just my opinion.

[Mark]

I had an interesting discussion on the toopic of praying about ones c&e status, and I was reminded of two people where this would be appropriate (in my judgement). The first had been through hell and remained faithful, and was then told by a bishop that he/she was going to the Celestial Kingdom and to pray until he/she had these feelings.

The second was told in a patriarchal blessing that he/she was sealed up unto eternal life. Since patriarchs are instructed to not make statements like this, and the person was a recent convert, it raised a question in the idividuals mind.

The pattern we see in the scriptures, and in the lives of more recent individuals in church history, demonstrate that the Lord, through the voice of the Spirit, tells the the person they are sealed up to eternal life (personal visits come later). In these two cases, something else took place, but both had priesthood authority figures involved. One with keys, and one who speaks for the Lord in giving official blessings.

Again, I'm no expert, but from what little bit I do understand and know, I have serious reservations about these examples. According to my understanding, C&E, like BF&HG, the Second Comforter, and having one's marriage sealed by the holy spirit of promise are all spiritual blessings -- bestowed by Jesus Christ himself, the Holy Ghost, or heavenly messengers -- not by mortal beings. When it comes to those sorts of things, there is only one source that I would trust or accept and it is not a mortal being -- regardless of their priesthood office. In fact, that is one of the very things that distinguishes those spiritual ordinances from the physical ordinances performed by mortal priesthood bearers. In those cases, I have no reason to see why God would use mortal messengers to deliver such messages and perform such ordinances -- to do so, leaving questions and doubts in the recipients mind, essentially eliminates all distinction between such spiritual ordinances and the lower physical ordinances.

Christ doesn't appear when ones calling and election is made sure, that comes after, according to Joseph Smith. Almost every example I am aware of involves the Lord, through the Holy Ghost, testifying that the person is sealed up to eternal life. One that doesn't fit, is the three young men who carried the saints of the handcart companies through the frozen river. Brigham Young stated that they all had the c&e based on that one act.

In the first example the person may have been in too much pain to hear the voice of the Spirit.

What is in writing on this subject? Is there anything authoritative which clearly states every possible way that the Lord migth make this known? My feelings have been that if a person has progressed that far, then they are among those who can hear the voice of the Lord directly, and there is no middle man needed. But that is just my opinion.

I will put another plug in for John Pontius wonderful book "The Triumph of Zion- Our Personal Quest for the New Jerusalem". It is the best book I have discovered thus far in explaining sacred truths like Calling and Election and becoming a member of the Church of the Firstborn. It is filled with the Spirit of truth and light.

[gruden2.0]

I had an interesting discussion on the toopic of praying about ones c&e status, and I was reminded of two people where this would be appropriate (in my judgement). The first had been through hell and remained faithful, and was then told by a bishop that he/she was going to the Celestial Kingdom and to pray until he/she had these feelings.

The second was told in a patriarchal blessing that he/she was sealed up unto eternal life. Since patriarchs are instructed to not make statements like this, and the person was a recent convert, it raised a question in the idividuals mind.

The pattern we see in the scriptures, and in the lives of more recent individuals in church history, demonstrate that the Lord, through the voice of the Spirit, tells the the person they are sealed up to eternal life (personal visits come later). In these two cases, something else took place, but both had priesthood authority figures involved. One with keys, and one who speaks for the Lord in giving official blessings.

In both cases, taking the question to the Lord is imperative (and both probably will as a result of this discussion). However, I think that a Sacrament talk advocating this approach could result in a spiritual Pandora's box being opened. Why? Because so many are still in need of milk, and something like this could make them an easy prey for the adversary. Just my opinion.

Gideon, I very much like what you have to say in these threads.

The Second Comforter and C&EMS are NOT the same thing. You can have one without the other. At some point you have both, presumably, but not automatically. I know of 2 people to have been in the Saviors physical presence, and there was a promise of a future blessing indicative of C&EMS, but had not happened yet. Remember, testimony of Christ and his mission is one of the spiritual gifts (D&C 46:13).

My wife had an experience that I cannot relate because it isn't mine, but she was personally told she would be with the Savior when she got to a certain point. She is almost there, but this is years later. The point being that the idea of there being a 'fastest way' to C&EMS certainly appeals to our current instant gratification culture, but it is something that takes a fair amount of work and spiritual maturity. I do certainly agree that it's a most worthwhile thing to ask for, but if we expect it at that moment we ask or shortly afterward, in many cases we will be disappointed. While it may have happened to a few, it does a disservice to most to think that will always be the case. I suspect in some cases it was the promise of such, not the actual fulfillment.

[gruden2.0]

Again, I'm no expert, but from what little bit I do understand and know, I have serious reservations about these examples. According to my understanding, C&E, like BF&HG, the Second Comforter, and having one's marriage sealed by the holy spirit of promise are all spiritual blessings -- bestowed by Jesus Christ himself, the Holy Ghost, or heavenly messengers -- not by mortal beings.

In the cases he mentioned it wasn't the person bestowing the gift, but merely being the messenger and pointing the person in the right direction. Sometimes we all need a little prodding, either coming from someone on this side of the veil or the other.

[HeirofNumenor]

I had an interesting discussion on the toopic of praying about ones c&e status, and I was reminded of two people where this would be appropriate (in my judgement). The first had been through hell and remained faithful, and was then told by a bishop that he/she was going to the Celestial Kingdom and to pray until he/she had these feelings.

The second was told in a patriarchal blessing that he/she was sealed up unto eternal life. Since patriarchs are instructed to not make statements like this, and the person was a recent convert, it raised a question in the idividuals mind.

The pattern we see in the scriptures, and in the lives of more recent individuals in church history, demonstrate that the Lord, through the voice of the Spirit, tells the the person they are sealed up to eternal life (personal visits come later). In these two cases, something else took place, but both had priesthood authority figures involved. One with keys, and one who speaks for the Lord in giving official blessings.

In both cases, taking the question to the Lord is imperative (and both probably will as a result of this discussion). However, I think that a Sacrament talk advocating this approach could result in a spiritual Pandora's box being opened. Why? Because so many are still in need of milk, and something like this could make them an easy prey for the adversary. Just my opinion.

Gideon, I very much like what you have to say in these threads.

The Second Comforter and C&EMS are NOT the same thing. You can have one without the other. At some point you have both, presumably, but not automatically. I know of 2 people to have been in the Saviors physical presence, and there was a promise of a future blessing indicative of C&EMS, but had not happened yet. Remember, testimony of Christ and his mission is one of the spiritual gifts (D&C 46:13).

My wife had an experience that I cannot relate because it isn't mine, but she was personally told she would be with the Savior when she got to a certain point. She is almost there, but this is years later. The point being that the idea of there being a 'fastest way' to C&EMS certainly appeals to our current instant gratification culture, but it is something that takes a fair amount of work and spiritual maturity. I do certainly agree that it's a most worthwhile thing to ask for, but if we expect it at that moment we ask or shortly afterward, in many cases we will be disappointed. While it may have happened to a few, it does a disservice to most to think that will always be the case. I suspect in some cases it was the promise of such, not the actual fulfillment.

Gideon & Gruden - Thank You

[reese]

Amonhi, I think that a lot of the feelings behind this discussion come from this statement of J.S. :

...then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and
thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God,
and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be
exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds
that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then
the man will find his calling and election made sure, then it
will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the
Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony
of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses.

I am open to the fact that I may make something like this harder than it needs to be and thus prolong it more that may be necessary. But these words bring to mind all kinds of horrible tests that last most of a life time. So to think that we have gone through and passed tests (without being aware) and that we are closer to C&E than we think, well its hard to believe.

I also can see that these "tests" are designed for us to prove ourselves to us, not the Lord. He already knows who will make it and who won't. So as Joseph said in order for US to gain the faith necessary for salvation we must sacrifice. I guess I am trying to understand the magnitude of this sacrifice that is required.

And yet when we read the words of Peter and Joseph quoting Peter, they make it sound as if it is a reasonable goal that all of us should be seeking and expecting to attain. Kind of matter of fact.

Is it possible for someone to have sacrificed enough and proven enough and yet not know it and thus their calling and election could come as a surprise to them?

[gr8ideas]

2 Nephi 25:23
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Book Reviews; BYU Studies Vol. 30, No. 4, pg.66
Questions that may arise when sincere Latter-day Saints read this book include, When have I done all I can do? How do I know when I have done all I can do? Can I ever do all I can do? These are appropriate queries, answers to which are implied in The Broken Heart but which I wish had been stated more directly. In addition, a misunderstanding may arise in the minds of many Latter-day Saints regarding Nephi's words "after all we can do." Some may conclude (erroneously) that the Lord's grace can be extended to us only after--meaning following or subsequent to--many doing all I can do. This notion is incorrect. The fact is, as Bruce Hafen seeks to show again and again, the Lord's enabling power comes to us all along the way. I feel that "after all we can do" means instead "above and beyond all we can do, it is by the grace of God that we are saved."

[Amonhi]

I had an interesting discussion on the toopic of praying about ones c&e status, ... However, I think that a Sacrament talk advocating this approach could result in a spiritual Pandora's box being opened. Why? Because so many are still in need of milk, and something like this could make them an easy prey for the adversary. Just my opinion.

Good points.

All references to milk vs. meat in the scriptures refer the milk to those who do not have the spirit and the meat to those who do.

[Amonhi]

In those cases, I have no reason to see why God would use mortal messengers to deliver such messages and perform such ordinances -- to do so, leaving questions and doubts in the recipients mind, essentially eliminates all distinction between such spiritual ordinances and the lower physical ordinances.

I agree!

[Amonhi]

My feelings have been that if a person has progressed that far, then they are among those who can hear the voice of the Lord directly, and there is no middle man needed. But that is just my opinion.

If they need a middle man, then do they really have a relationship with Christ or God?

[marc]

I had an interesting discussion on the toopic of praying about ones c&e status, ... However, I think that a Sacrament talk advocating this approach could result in a spiritual Pandora's box being opened. Why? Because so many are still in need of milk, and something like this could make them an easy prey for the adversary. Just my opinion.

Good points.

All references to milk vs. meat in the scriptures refer the milk to those who do not have the spirit and the meat to those who do.

I think if the Spirit moves you to bear your testimony as such during sacrament meeting, it's fine. The early saints were barely taking milk when Joseph Smith was sharing meat in large quantities. Did Moses not say something to the effect, "I would that all men were prophets?" I have borne my testimony in sacrament meeting that every member can receive the Second Comforter in this life. Those who are still sipping on milk will continue to enjoy milk and may be moved upon to begin taking meat, while those feasting upon meat will savor more meat. This is a good discussion thread and one which may well have been overdue. More and more members seem to desire greater blessings and it seems like more are willing to sacrifice for them. In the "Approaching the Heavenly Gift" forum, some of us are sharing our journey and insight. I love that there is no contention there and everyone supports one another.

[Amonhi]

Is it possible for someone to have sacrificed enough and proven enough and yet not know it and thus their calling and election could come as a surprise to them?

Yes, it is possible. Thus the first 2 questions. As stated before, my missionary companion prayed to know what he needed to do to receive this blessing. He received a very specific answer that was for him. I was blessed to see and hear the angel that delivered the message. Later that night we were sleeping. He woke up being smuthered by a demon of sorts. (That doesn't happen to everyone by the way...so don't be afraid...but be prepared.) He raised his hand to the square and cast the evil spirit out in the name of Jesus Christ. Immediately the room lit, and Christ appeared near the foot of his bed and he received some blessings which included his C&E. I slept soundly through this part. For people who did not already qualified, (questions 1 & 2), he was the fastest I ever heard of to go from question 3 to got it.

However as stated by Gideon and Gruden, we may also have a way to go. The Goal of the 3rd question is to get personal and individual guidance so that you are not wandering haphazardly without a solid direction. Like I said, this is the Fastest way to get you from wherever you are right now to where you need to be to receive this blessing. It is the least painful with the fewest trials/tests/lessons.

I know a man who spent his whole life seeking it, but was not prepared until 2 weeks before he died at which time he received it. He didn't use the 3 questions as suggested, but if he had, I don't think he would have gotten it much sooner.

It really comes down to you and the Lord. Work out your salvation and exaltation with Him.

[tmac]

If they need a middle man, then do they really have a relationship with Christ or God?

From my perspective, Amonhi, this statement essentially sums it up in a nutshell. Isn't that what all this is really about -- developing a true, living, breathing, actual personal relationship with God? Again, thanks for all your thoughts and insights.

Actually, to me, what we are talking about here is the epitome of "seeking first the Kingdom of Heaven" -- asking the Lord, what do I need to do to make sure that I am there? . . . and doing it!

The rich young man, who apparently was a very good person, and had kept all the commandments since his youth, asked the Savior what he lacked and what he needed to do to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, and the Savior told him to sell everything and come and follow Him. But at least at first (we don't know what might have happened later), the young man's reaction was that this was simply too high a price to pay -- he would rather have his much property and possessions than do what the Savior said to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

Sure, we can take the long way around and try to make sure that first we taste everything the world has to offer, and/or insist on experiencing the sorest of trials and tribulations to prove to ourselves that we are worthy and have passed the test, but maybe the Lord is much more willing to bless us than we often think, if we will simply ask those questions, and then act upon what we are told. After truly "receiving" the Holy Ghost (which I think far fewer people have actually done than the conventional wisdom would have us believe, (i.e., confirmation, etc.), we are in a position to experience the mighty change of heart and have the spirit truly communicate and guide us in our lives. Through the experience of the mighty change and genuine guidance of the spirit, why wouldn't/shouldn't it be possibly to expedite the process? Again thanks for sharing all that you have.

I know that many seem skeptical, but you have never said that it will happen in a week or a month or year, but simply this is the most direct route. I also appreciate the fact that you don't seem to be defensive about any of this. Many here on the forum are extremely defensive of their paradigms -- especially milk-based paradigms -- and seemingly willing to aggressively defend them at all cost and at the slightest provocation. I appreciate the fact that isn't the approach you take, and from my perspective, that may be one of the fruits of someone who has experienced things and undergone changes that many of us have yet to experience.

[reese]

If they need a middle man, then do they really have a relationship with Christ or God?

From my perspective, Amonhi, this statement essentially sums it up in a nutshell. Isn't that what all this is really about -- developing a true, living, breathing, actual personal relationship with God? Again, thanks for all your thoughts and insights.

Actually, to me, what we are talking about here is the epitome of "seeking first the Kingdom of Heaven" -- asking the Lord, what do I need to do to make sure that I am there? . . . and doing it!

The rich young man, who apparently was a very good person, and had kept all the commandments since his youth, asked the Savior what he lacked and what he needed to do to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, and the Savior told him to sell everything and come and follow Him. But at least at first (we don't know what might have happened later), the young man's reaction was that this was simply too high a price to pay -- he would rather have his much property and possessions than do what the Savior said to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

Sure, we can take the long way around and try to make sure that first we taste everything the world has to offer, and/or insist on experiencing the sorest of trials and tribulations to prove to ourselves that we are worthy and have passed the test, but maybe the Lord is much more willing to bless us than we often think, if we will simply ask those questions, and then act upon what we are told. After truly "receiving" the Holy Ghost (which I think far fewer people have actually done than the conventional wisdom would have us believe, (i.e., confirmation, etc.), we are in a position to experience the mighty change of heart and have the spirit truly communicate and guide us in our lives. Through the experience of the mighty change and genuine guidance of the spirit, why wouldn't/shouldn't it be possibly to expedite the process? Again thanks for sharing all that you have.

I know that many seem skeptical, but you have never said that it will happen in a week or a month or year, but simply this is the most direct route. I also appreciate the fact that you don't seem to be defensive about any of this. Many here on the forum are extremely defensive of their paradigms -- especially milk-based paradigms -- and seemingly willing to aggressively defend them at all cost and at the slightest provocation. I appreciate the fact that isn't the approach you take, and from my perspective, that may be one of the fruits of someone who has experienced things and undergone changes that many of us have yet to experience.

I think you are exactly right, on all points tmac. Well said.

[ithink]

Is it possible for someone to have sacrificed enough and proven enough and yet not know it and thus their calling and election could come as a surprise to them?

Yes, it is possible. Thus the first 2 questions. As stated before, my missionary companion prayed to know what he needed to do to receive this blessing. He received a very specific answer that was for him. I was blessed to see and hear the angel that delivered the message. Later that night we were sleeping. He woke up being smuthered by a demon of sorts. (That doesn't happen to everyone by the way...so don't be afraid...but be prepared.) He raised his hand to the square and cast the evil spirit out in the name of Jesus Christ. Immediately the room lit, and Christ appeared near the foot of his bed and he received some blessings which included his C&E. I slept soundly through this part. For people who did not already qualified, (questions 1 & 2), he was the fastest I ever heard of to go from question 3 to got it.

However as stated by Gideon and Gruden, we may also have a way to go. The Goal of the 3rd question is to get personal and individual guidance so that you are not wandering haphazardly without a solid direction. Like I said, this is the Fastest way to get you from wherever you are right now to where you need to be to receive this blessing. It is the least painful with the fewest trials/tests/lessons.

I know a man who spent his whole life seeking it, but was not prepared until 2 weeks before he died at which time he received it. He didn't use the 3 questions as suggested, but if he had, I don't think he would have gotten it much sooner.

It really comes down to you and the Lord. Work out your salvation and exaltation with Him.

I've been lurking on this thread all week. I have to say I am impressed with your message Amonhi, and with the way you present it, and with the way you handle objections. It seem to me that you are indeed love. A good example for me to be sure, as many on this forum will attest. I'm sure I have a long way to go, but let's just say you have given me renewed hope -- for me and my family.

The only question I had regarding your thread was venue, and it is refreshing to see that you answered that already: that venue means nothing, and that the Lord is not restricted in any way as well, that He can still do His own work in any way, place, or time that He see's fit. Truly a hope building thread. Thank you for doing what you are doing.

[tmac]

From my growing perspective, it's all about the state of one's heart . . . and it really boils down to a very simple question, and a very simple quest -- what thing(s) do I lack to receive a personal promise from God himself of exaltation and eternal life? The problem is that many of us may be very concerned about asking that question, because like the rich young man, based on the natural man and the current state of our hearts, we may not like the answer(s) we get. We may decide we need/want to beat our head against a brick wall for a while longer before we're ready to submit, repent, and simply do what the Lord asks of us -- individually.

[durangout]

Alma 30

1 Behold, now it came to pass that after the apeople of Ammon were established in the land of Jershon, yea, and also after the Lamanites were bdriven out of the land, and their dead were buried by the people of the land—

2 Now their dead were not numbered because of the greatness of their numbers; neither were the dead of the Nephites numbered—but it came to pass after they had buried their dead, and also after the days of afasting, and bmourning, and prayer, (and it was in the sixteenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi) there began to be continual peace throughout all the land.

3 Yea, and the people did observe to keep the commandments of the Lord; and they were strict in observing the aordinances of God, according to the law of Moses; for they were taught to bkeep the law of Moses until it should be fulfilled.

4 And thus the people did have no disturbance in all the sixteenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi.

5 And it came to pass that in the commencement of the seventeenth year of the reign of the judges, there was continual peace.

6 But it came to pass in the latter end of the seventeenth year, there came a man into the land of Zarahemla, and he was aAnti-Christ, for he began to preach unto the people bagainst the prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets, concerning the coming of Christ.

7 Now there was no law against a aman’s bbelief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.

8 For thus saith the scripture: aChoose ye this day, whom ye will serve.

9 Now if a man desired to serve God, it was his privilege; or rather, if he believed in God it was his privilege to serve him; but if he did not believe in him there was no law to punish him.

10 But if he amurdered he was punished unto bdeath; and if he crobbed he was also punished; and if he stole he was also punished; and if he committed dadultery he was also punished; yea, for all this wickedness they were punished.

11 For there was a law that men should be judged according to their crimes. Nevertheless, there was no law against a man’s belief; therefore, a man was punished only for the crimes which he had done; therefore all men were on aequal grounds.

12 And this aAnti-Christ, whose name was Korihor, (and the law could have no hold upon him) began to preach unto the people that there should be bno Christ. And after this manner did he preach, saying:

13 O ye that are bound down under a afoolish and a vain hope, why do ye yoke yourselves with such foolish things? Why do ye look for a Christ? For no man can bknow of anything which is to come.

14 Behold, these things which ye call prophecies, which ye say are handed down by holy prophets, behold, they are foolish traditions of your fathers.

15 How do ye know of their surety? Behold, ye cannot know of things which ye do not asee; therefore ye cannot know that there shall be a Christ.

16 Ye look forward and say that ye see a remission of your sins. But behold, it is the effect of a afrenzied mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so.

17 And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man afared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and bwhatsoever a man did was cno crime.

18 And thus he did preach unto them, leading away the hearts of many, causing them to lift up their heads in their wickedness, yea, leading away many women, and also men, to commit whoredoms—telling them that when a man was dead, that was the end thereof.

19 Now this man went over to the land of aJershon also, to preach these things among the people of Ammon, who were once the people of the Lamanites.

20 But behold they were more wise than many of the Nephites; for they took him, and bound him, and carried him before Ammon, who was a ahigh priest over that people.

21 And it came to pass that he caused that he should be carried out of the land. And he came over into the land of Gideon, and began to preach unto them also; and here he did not have much success, for he was taken and bound and carried before the high priest, and also the chief judge over the land.

22 And it came to pass that the high priest said unto him: Why do ye go about perverting the ways of the Lord? Why do ye teach this people that there shall be no Christ, to interrupt their rejoicings? Why do ye speak against all the prophecies of the holy prophets?

23 Now the high priest’s name was Giddonah. And Korihor said unto him: Because I do not teach the foolish traditions of your fathers, and because I do not teach this people to bind themselves down under the foolish ordinances and performances which are laid down by ancient priests, to usurp power and authority over them, to keep them in ignorance, that they may not lift up their heads, but be brought down according to thy words.

24 Ye say that this people is a free people. Behold, I say they are in bondage. Ye say that those ancient prophecies are true. Behold, I say that ye do not know that they are true.

25 Ye say that this people is a guilty and a fallen people, because of the transgression of a parent. Behold, I say that a child is not guilty because of its parents.

26 And ye also say that Christ shall come. But behold, I say that ye do not know that there shall be a Christ. And ye say also that he shall be slain for the asins of the world—

27 And thus ye lead away this people after the foolish traditions of your fathers, and according to your own desires; and ye keep them down, even as it were in bondage, that ye may glut yourselves with the labors of their hands, that they durst not look up with boldness, and that they durst not enjoy their rights and privileges.

28 Yea, they durst not make use of that which is their own lest they should offend their priests, who do yoke them according to their desires, and have brought them to believe, by their traditions and their dreams and their whims and their visions and their pretended mysteries, that they should, if they did not do according to their words, offend some unknown being, who they say is God—a being who anever has been seen or known, who bnever was nor ever will be.

29 Now when the high priest and the achief judge saw the hardness of his heart, yea, when they saw that he would brevile even against God, they would not make any reply to his words; but they caused that he should be bound; and they delivered him up into the hands of the officers, and sent him to the land of Zarahemla, that he might be brought before Alma, and the chief judge who was governor over all the land.

30 And it came to pass that when he was brought before Alma and the chief judge, he did go on in the same manner as he did in the land of Gideon; yea, he went on to ablaspheme.

31 And he did rise up in great aswelling words before Alma, and did revile against the bpriests and teachers, accusing them of leading away the people after the silly traditions of their fathers, for the sake of glutting on the labors of the people.

32 Now Alma said unto him: Thou knowest that we do not glut ourselves upon the labors of this people; for behold I have alabored even from the commencement of the reign of the judges until now, with mine bown hands for my support, notwithstanding my many travels round about the land to declare the word of God unto my people.

33 And notwithstanding the many labors which I have performed in the church, I have never received so much as even one asenine for my labor; neither has any of my brethren, save it were in the judgment-seat; and then we have received only according to law for our time.

34 And now, if we do not receive anything for our labors in the church, what doth it profit us to labor in the church save it were to declare the truth, that we may have rejoicings in the ajoy of our brethren?

35 Then why sayest thou that we preach unto this people to get gain, when thou, of thyself, knowest that we receive no gain? And now, believest thou that we deceive this people, that acauses such joy in their hearts?

36 And Korihor answered him, Yea.

37 And then Alma said unto him: Believest thou that there is a God?

38 And he answered, Nay.

39 Now Alma said unto him: Will ye deny again that there is a God, and also deny the Christ? For behold, I say unto you, I know there is a God, and also that Christ shall come.

40 And now what evidence have ye that there is no aGod, or that Christ cometh not? I say unto you that ye have none, save it be your word only.

41 But, behold, I have all things as a atestimony that these things are true; and ye also have all things as a testimony unto you that they are true; and will ye deny them? Believest thou that these things are true?

42 Behold, I know that thou abelievest, but thou art possessed with a blying spirit, and ye have put coff the Spirit of God that it may have no place in you; but the devil has power over you, and he doth carry you about, working devices that he may destroy the children of God.

43 And now Korihor said unto Alma: If thou wilt show me a asign, that I may be convinced that there is a God, yea, show unto me that he hath power, and then will I be convinced of the truth of thy words.

44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of aall these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the bearth, and call things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its dmotion, yea, and also all the eplanets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.

45 And yet do ye go about, leading away the hearts of this people, testifying unto them there is no God? And yet will ye deny against all these awitnesses? And he said: Yea, I will deny, except ye shall show me a sign.

46 And now it came to pass that Alma said unto him: Behold, I am grieved because of the hardness of your heart, yea, that ye will still resist the spirit of the truth, that thy soul may be destroyed.

47 But behold, it is abetter that thy soul should be blost than that thou shouldst be the means of bringing many souls down to destruction, by thy lying and by thy flattering words; therefore if thou shalt deny again, behold God shall smite thee, that thou shalt become dumb, that thou shalt never open thy mouth any more, that thou shalt not deceive this people any more.

48 Now Korihor said unto him: I do not deny the existence of a God, but I do not believe that there is a God; and I say also, that ye do not know that there is a God; and except ye show me a sign, I will not believe.

49 Now Alma said unto him: This will I give unto thee for a sign, that thou shalt be astruck dumb, according to my words; and I say, that in the name of God, ye shall be struck dumb, that ye shall no more have utterance.

50 Now when Alma had said these words, Korihor was struck dumb, that he could not have utterance, according to the words of Alma.

51 And now when the chief judge saw this, he put forth his hand and wrote unto Korihor, saying: Art thou convinced of the power of God? In whom did ye desire that Alma should show forth his sign? Would ye that he should afflict others, to show unto thee a sign? Behold, he has showed unto you a sign; and now will ye dispute more?

52 And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote, saying: I know that I am dumb, for I cannot speak; and I know that nothing save it were the apower of God could bring this upon me; yea, and I always bknew that there was a God.

53 But behold, the devil hath adeceived me; for he bappeared unto me in the cform of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. And he said unto me: There is dno God; yea, and he taught me that which I should say. And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the ecarnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth, even until I have brought this great fcurse upon me.

54 Now when he had said this, he besought that Alma should pray unto God, that the acurse might be taken from him.

55 But Alma said unto him: If this curse should be taken from thee thou wouldst again lead away the hearts of this people; therefore, it shall be unto thee even as the Lord will.

56 And it came to pass that the curse was not taken off of Korihor; but he was acast out, and went about from house to house begging for his food.

57 Now the knowledge of what had happened unto Korihor was immediately published throughout all the land; yea, the proclamation was sent forth by the chief judge to all the people in the land, declaring unto those who had believed in the words of Korihor that they must speedily repent, alest the same judgments would come unto them.

58 And it came to pass that they were all convinced of the wickedness of Korihor; therefore they were all converted again unto the Lord; and this put an end to the iniquity after the manner of Korihor. And Korihor did go about from house to house, begging food for his support.

59 And it came to pass that as he went forth among the people, yea, among a people who had separated themselves from the Nephites and called themselves aZoramites, being led by a man whose name was Zoram—and as he went forth amongst them, behold, he was run upon and trodden down, even until he was bdead.

60 And thus we see the end of him who aperverteth the ways of the Lord; and thus we see that the devil will not bsupport his children at the last day, but doth speedily drag them down to chell>